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Thread: A7rII

  1. #51
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    Re: A7rII

    This comment i slightly off topic but regarding investing long term into a a Sony system it's as safe a bet as any other system right now in that we do see third party vendors investing a lot more into them in the last 18 months than they have in the last 10 years or so. Much of that has to do with the impact of the FE system.

    No Sony is not a perfect camera company by any means and there is a lot of room for improvements. All things considered I personally rather them update their bodies on a yearly basis than have to wait 2-5 years for them to fix the shortcomings or wait that long only to find the successor to the camera you have is NOT the camera that you want.

    Sony DOES have a PR issue but it didn't just start with the E-mount. They need to go out of their way to state who they are, what they currently make, what they're building, what they're building towards, put more cameras in the hands of more people doing the types of work that are complimentary to what they are offering, etc... Mostly to shut up the detractors that spew ignorant opinions for whatever the reason. I understand the cameras aren't for everyone and do come it's the closest thing to a FF 35mm digital back.

    When Sony made those wonderful products (that everyone seems to love now but didn't buy when they were new like the A850/900) there were plenty in the CaNikon camps crapping on them because they didn't have tilt/shift or other specialty lenses - which naturally made the system as a whole "crap." All of the basics were mostly covered but it didn't sell as well as the inferior camera systems (from a technological standpoint.) What they did have was AF Zeiss lenses and built in IBIS for every lens. We saw how far that got them in the DSLR market.

    If you're looking for an investment talk to your financial planner... or buy a Leica M special edition and keep it sealed all cameras lose a lot of value in a short time.

    P.S. Jorgen The D610 wasn't selling for much more than a D7100 around Christmas time in USA and it probably had a lot to do with the D750 which is similarly spec'd. Digital cameras lose value... Nikon puts out similarly spec'd bodies just as Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and Olympus does as well... it's not a big deal.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay I should not say this but screw it. I'm having a really hard time reading the comments over at SAR especially this announcement. I have held my tongue but they really need to get rid of the morons over there.
    I agree and sometimes it rolls into their forums but it's much more tightly controlled in the forums naturally as it's easier to moderate I'm sure. I tend to stay away from the comments as they remind me of DPReview on a smaller scale. Just know it's a much different crowd over there on the SAR comments board... Generally all manual lenses are unacceptable, mention Leica and you get flame raged as a collector/1%-er, CaNikon are superior (I think 90% of the negative comments come from CaNikon owners,) everything Sony makes is too expensive, they need $500 FF Tri-Navi cameras, they need more $150 lenses that are able to outresolve the Otus lines, etc.

    GodI'm getting a headache typing about it... So I just skim the stories and click the page back button.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post

    If you're looking for an investment talk to your financial planner... or buy a Leica M special edition and keep it sealed all cameras lose a lot of value in a short time.
    Can't let that nugget pass.

    The M60 (one of the digital Ms with no LCD) isn't selling at all it seems. Personally, i will spring for a digital M with no LCD and no sensor.

    I am sure that is a gold mine for a dime.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Can't let that nugget pass.

    The M60 (one of the digital Ms with no LCD) isn't selling at all it seems. Personally, i will spring for a digital M with no LCD and no sensor.

    I am sure that is a gold mine for a dime.
    Yeah that's the exception... Most of the limited editions Leica M's sell well but a few of their more recent ones have been a great values (Safari M and 60th Anniversary S-Type 006) compared to buying the camera/lenses separately.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Second hand A7 bodies sell for roughly the same as the 5-7 years old Nikon D700.
    which is good at the same time = more people will get a taste of FE...
    A7RII + FE55/1.8

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    Re: A7rII

    Digital camera depreciation is the modern age equivalent of film costs, only way less on a cost per image basis, and for many users a cost per keeper image basis. You should not expect these fabulous devices for very reasonable prices, then have them not lose market value. And like an old but still good car, they will then not owe you anything IF you can exercise GAS restraint, lol.

    The a7 is an entry level body, Sony will continue to use it as a loss leader for price conscious groups - crop sensor users, low-mid DSLR users, upshifting compact users, new entrants, second camera buyers. That is why it got the ergo upgrades first - enticement. A bit like how the banks treat new customers better than existing customers.

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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post

    No Sony is not a perfect camera company by any means and there is a lot of room for improvements. All things considered I personally rather them update their bodies on a yearly basis than have to wait 2-5 years for them to fix the shortcomings or wait that long only to find the successor to the camera you have is NOT the camera that you want.

    Sony DOES have a PR issue but it didn't just start with the E-mount. (....) Mostly to shut up the detractors that spew ignorant opinions for whatever the reason. I understand the cameras aren't for everyone and do come it's the closest thing to a FF 35mm digital back.
    The main problem of Sony FE line is that compared to the others manufacturers, they are not offering a system. I bought an A7r because I liked what they were offering and the promise it seemed to hold (finally the equivalent of a digital rangefinder). But their problem isn't PR, it is that the FE mount isn't leading toward a coherent system. Compared to Canikon it is far from being a system, this is understandable of course, since the system is much younger. But MFT which I bought as a young system too back in 2009 held its promises much better and is now a complete and coherent system. Granted there were two manufacturers involved. But the same can be told from the FE mount, with one player (Zeiss) a renowned optical player.

    Buying an A7r I made an hopeful bet, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it was the thing to do. I love the A7r, but each time a new lens is announced it is a little frustrating.

    It isn't only Canikons fans that are criticizing the FE lens offering and how the system is developing. The problem isn't only a PR problem, it is the choice made for the lens system until now.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    The main problem of Sony FE line is that compared to the others manufacturers, they are not offering a system. I bought an A7r because I liked what they were offering and the promise it seemed to hold (finally the equivalent of a digital rangefinder). But their problem isn't PR, it is that the FE mount isn't leading toward a coherent system. Compared to Canikon it is far from being a system, this is understandable of course, since the system is much younger. But MFT which I bought as a young system too back in 2009 held its promises much better and is now a complete and coherent system. Granted there were two manufacturers involved. But the same can be told from the FE mount, with one player (Zeiss) a renowned optical player.

    Buying an A7r I made an hopeful bet, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it was the thing to do. I love the A7r, but each time a new lens is announced it is a little frustrating.

    It isn't only Canikons fans that are criticizing the FE lens offering and how the system is developing. The problem isn't only a PR problem, it is the choice made for the lens system until now.
    I think the problem is more your expectations of the future of the FE system it applies specifically to your needs/desires. I personally love that they are putting out some fast primes and quality lenses (I understand that you and many others loathe the larger lenses even though there are some smaller alternatives/adapted lenses) as the alternative would lead me back to Leica and Micro 4/3... Or maybe another DSLR.

    I too bought in Micro 4/3 and still own/use my Panasonic G1. I traded my Canon APS-C system for it and jumped into their waters head first. The reason I say Sony has a PR problem is that they need to address is to clear up any misconception that this is a digital rangefinder replacement... I see it as more of an in between camera/compact DB.

    I believe for your needs Micro 4/3 combined with a tech camera (or maybe a Canon 5Ds with lineup of T/S lenses) to do your landscape/architecture is the perfect system for you as you seem to put size and compactness towards the top of your list. You've stated that you don't have a need or desire for fast lenses and that DOF isn't a huge concern of yours. I don't know that the Sony FE system is really for you and that's okay. Choice is good for us all and no need to stay under a product cloud that doesn't meet your needs.

    Over the last year many owners have/continue to bemoan deficiencies in camera design, menus, lens sizes, lens lineup, etc. I think in the way Sony tried to consolidate as a unified "Alpha" brand but maybe they didn't go quite far enough with it all... It's at least confusing to many unfamiliar with Sony.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay I should not say this but screw it. I'm having a really hard time reading the comments over at SAR especially this announcement. I have held my tongue but they really need to get rid of the morons over there.
    I stopped commenting over there because I couldn't be bothered reading most of the comments. It used to be so interesting in the comment section.

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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    This comment i slightly off topic but regarding investing long term into a a Sony system it's as safe a bet as any other system right now in that we do see third party vendors investing a lot more into them in the last 18 months than they have in the last 10 years or so. Much of that has to do with the impact of the FE system.

    No Sony is not a perfect camera company by any means and there is a lot of room for improvements. All things considered I personally rather them update their bodies on a yearly basis than have to wait 2-5 years for them to fix the shortcomings or wait that long only to find the successor to the camera you have is NOT the camera that you want.

    Sony DOES have a PR issue but it didn't just start with the E-mount. They need to go out of their way to state who they are, what they currently make, what they're building, what they're building towards, put more cameras in the hands of more people doing the types of work that are complimentary to what they are offering, etc... Mostly to shut up the detractors that spew ignorant opinions for whatever the reason. I understand the cameras aren't for everyone and do come it's the closest thing to a FF 35mm digital back.

    When Sony made those wonderful products (that everyone seems to love now but didn't buy when they were new like the A850/900) there were plenty in the CaNikon camps crapping on them because they didn't have tilt/shift or other specialty lenses - which naturally made the system as a whole "crap." All of the basics were mostly covered but it didn't sell as well as the inferior camera systems (from a technological standpoint.) What they did have was AF Zeiss lenses and built in IBIS for every lens. We saw how far that got them in the DSLR market.

    If you're looking for an investment talk to your financial planner... or buy a Leica M special edition and keep it sealed all cameras lose a lot of value in a short time.

    P.S. Jorgen The D610 wasn't selling for much more than a D7100 around Christmas time in USA and it probably had a lot to do with the D750 which is similarly spec'd. Digital cameras lose value... Nikon puts out similarly spec'd bodies just as Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and Olympus does as well... it's not a big deal.
    As an early and continuous Sony user, I have a slightly different perspective.

    While Sony did produce a worthy FF camera in the A900/850, it fell short in key functional areas that had been well established by Canon/Nikon. For example, (lack of T/S lenses aside) a key error on their part was lack of Live View on the A900. Also, the initial A900 was prone to noise at lower ISOs than C/N. Etc. Things like that become a reason not to switch systems for many serious "system photographers".

    All that aside, I bought into the Sony A900 as a system because the A mount lens line-up was relatively well fleshed out already and replaced my defunct Contax ND and Zeiss N AF lenses. Many key ZA focal lengths (fast f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4, f/1.8 primes), supplemented by G optics, made it a usable system for wedding/event/portrait. It was the Zeiss AF lenses that drew me in, NOT the cameras.

    However, much as I wished and hoped, Zeiss has not produced a ZA35/1.4 to round out the ZA signature series ... which is a must have systems lens. ZA28/2 and ZA50/1.4 were added, but no ZA35/1.4!

    So, I'm probably alone in this group in hoping the rumored 50 meg MAY be an A-Mount "flagship" replacement.

    Financially, I don't care about camera depreciation, but I sure as hell don't want the substantial investment in ZA lenses to take a dive off a cliff for lack of a A mount continuation ... Like my Contax N experience.

    I also agree with Annna T regarding the FE system.

    It isn't just haters/detractors spewing ignorant opinions, or a PR issue with Sony. There was an inherent promise at least implied by A7/A7R. Like many others, my first reaction was ... "WOW! Finally, a digital Leica CL ... more supported by the little FE35/2.8 than the larger FE55/1.8. The very first thing many Leica M users went for was trying their M lenses. Disappointment ensued. Slow aperture biggish lenses, then substantial size creep with anything faster. Coupled with EFV lag, the expectation of a digital CL were effectively dashed.

    Of course individual expectations aren't Sony's fault ... and the adaptability of so many "favored" legacy lenses from many makers DID meet other's expectations. Yet, those attributes do not make a cohesive small AF system with an optical signature that produces similar characteristics across the line for continuity of image from different focal lengths.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    [U][SIZE="3"]
    Of course individual expectations aren't Sony's fault ...
    You can not be serious! They bloody encouraged these expectations by offering an adapter of choice (that included a Leica M adapter) in some areas.

    They also expressly advertise for "palm sized" cameras.

    What is the point in offering truck sized lenses to go with that?

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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You can not be serious! They bloody encouraged these expectations by offering an adapter of choice (that included a Leica M adapter) in some areas.

    They also expressly advertise for "palm sized" cameras.

    What is the point in offering truck sized lenses to go with that?
    Point taken. I was just "half seriously" trying to give them the benefit of doubt.

    Essentially, I agree with you.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7rII

    Marc I hope they also release an A-Mount "super camera" as well. There are many like you who are still primarily DSLR invested a lot of money into lenses, flashes, accessories, bodies, etc. from a system standpoint and I don't think going the adapter mount for an "A-mount solution" is the best way forward for Sony just as it wasn't the most elegant "R-solution for Leica."

    I have a ZA135/1.8 and a Sigma Art 35/1.4 that would fit nicely on an A-mount camera should they produce one and I get a DSLR itch.
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    Re: A7rII

    My issue is I do hope they come out with a new A body but not sure I want to go back to a DSLR myself. As we keep talking about the E series over time and a lot of disgruntled talk about the A7r I just look at the fun thread and look at what folks have shot with it and all that talk just fades away. My last workshop I killed it with images from the A7r but than I hit issues in the studio with it. Vertical shots with strobes would only clearly sync at ISO 100 with the 85 1.4 and adapter. I think the translucent mirror was getting in the way.

    Seriously without this announcement I was thinking of selling it and get another A7MKII. And just wait it out but as you can see I'm torn on the A7r as its great on one hand but needs a update to fix some of the issues. I. Staying in the E camp unless they blow the doors off with a A model. But I really don't want to go back to a full size body. Lenses I don't give a rats *** how big they are as long as they perform. Sure smaller size I won't turn down but I know the limits and physical restrictions on fast glass.

    Right now I'm more fixated on doing my hobby more and that's play more golf. Lol
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    Re: A7rII

    Yeah. I'm ready for the Spring weather to start so I can pull out the Ping's myself.
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    Re: A7rII

    Has anyone bought the powerzoom offered by SOny? Apparently it is a stunning performer.
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    Re: A7rII

    Nope I haven't but I've heard the same. I don't like Powerzooms (in my admittedly limited experience) but I'm also not interested in video.

    Regarding all the comments though I would gather to say that many of us are using the FE cameras for vastly different uses to attempt to cover our various needs. Some of us are mostly satisfied. Most are on the fence. Still others have completely abandoned it and found a better alternative in other cameras. Choice is great and there are really no perfect cameras - but most are pretty good these days. Some are just better fits for each photographer.
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Has anyone bought the powerzoom offered by SOny? Apparently it is a stunning performer.

    Thanks Vivek. This one?
    Sony FE PZ 28-135mm f/4 G OSS Lens
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7rII

    That is the one, K-H. Good size too!
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    Re: A7rII

    I see the upcoming A7RMkII as an important development : this will be the first properly stabilised 36mpx camera with the potential to make more use of those 36mpx than any before, due to that stabilisation : and for all lenses.
    A7 and A7S are not so needy for stills as their mpx count is lower.
    (A stabilised A7S will be the video monster ...)

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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Has anyone bought the powerzoom offered by SOny? Apparently it is a stunning performer.
    It's a lens I would love to have for a video project I have coming up (in combination with an A7s II featuring in-body 4K recording ), one of the key features being that it's parfocal (focus doesn't change while zooming). Unfortunately, some users seem to have issues with zoom speed and precision, the latter also when zooming manually (it's all fly-by-wire), but that was more or less to be expected. It's only a fraction (less than 10%) of the price of comparable cine lenses

    Nice review here btw.:

    https://vimeo.com/119742436
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    Re: A7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    which is good at the same time = more people will get a taste of FE...
    That's not how markets work. Prices are low because there are too few buyers. Compare the second hand prices of the A7 to those of the 7 years old A900, and there seems to be more interest in the DSLR with higher prices and fewer sellers.

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