A7rII

[jfirneno]

I hope we can still handhold this 50 MP camera, the shutter needs to be completely damped, otherwise a lot of threads are ahead of us.
We will need IBIS even more now.

Michiel:

I think that gets to the heart of what a 50 megapixel camera is used for. Wouldn't you want a tripod to take full advantage of the detail? So landscape work then. Does anyone know of other types of photos where a 50 megapixel camera is preferable to a 35 megapixel camera? And I'm not playing devil's advocate. It's an actual question.

 

[Uaiomex]

I want 50mp's, 14 stops + DR, EFCS and fully articulated screen. Buying two. No kidding.

 

[iiiNelson]

Well I hope they lay the cards on the table soon. I'd prefer the "Pro" body (if it is in fact coming) but I wouldn't scoff at a refined A7RII (more dampened shutter for those that it bothers, IBIS, possibly improved ergonomics, improved IQ, etc) either. Hell I could just buy this and trade my standard A7 in towards the "Pro" body if it ever comes. I also wouldn't mind built in APS-H and APS-C crop modes as well similar to what the 5Ds cameras are offering to retain 60% and 40% of max resolution respectively as well.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Why bother when they are not in one's radar? :sleep006:

(You see nikon users coming and offering advices to Sony. Sony users just ignore nikon and spend the time for anything else)

No, I'm not trying to give Sony advice, and honestly, I don't think it would matter if I did. I'm simply pointing out that it's not very likely that they'll try to lower prices to gain market share. They tried that with the A850 without gaining much, if anything at all. In spite of good products and very competitive prices, Sony is pretty much a non-player in the DSLR market now. The key has to be found elsewhere.

The question is how they can get more traction in the mirrorless market, instead of losing market shares as they apparently do. Although they don't make money from the second hand market, many are skeptical to invest in a system that loses value fast. The camera market isn't very different from any other capital goods market in that respect.

I also keep asking myself why on earth they haven't launched two of the most common lenses, a cheap 50mm and a medium fast, reasonably priced 85mm. It's like launching a sports car without a manual gearbox option.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'm hoping for a 50 mpx but I would take a 36mpx updated sensor , give me all what the A7II has and uncompressed raws and I will jump off the wall for it. This makes me want the Zeiss 35 1.4 more and I'm seriously rethinking the 50mm and sell my Mtikon. The 35 FOV is more my look lens so I'll go for a razor in the 50 now. Maybe the 50 ART lens or buy the 55mm again. Keep my 16-35, 85 1.4, Minolta 200. That gives me 3 fast lenses at F2 or better. I rented the dang 24-70 again for this weekend gig. I have rented 4 times now. It's these dang events that make me rent it. Wish this PR stuff was not my bread and butter. Lol

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay I should not say this but screw it. I'm having a really hard time reading the comments over at SAR especially this announcement. I have held my tongue but they really need to get rid of the morons over there.

 

[Vivek]

No, I'm not trying to give Sony advice, and honestly, I don't think it would matter if I did. I'm simply pointing out that it's not very likely that they'll try to lower prices to gain market share. They tried that with the A850 without gaining much, if anything at all. In spite of good products and very competitive prices, Sony is pretty much a non-player in the DSLR market now. The key has to be found elsewhere.

The question is how they can get more traction in the mirrorless market, instead of losing market shares as they apparently do. Although they don't make money from the second hand market, many are skeptical to invest in a system that loses value fast. The camera market isn't very different from any other capital goods market in that respect.

I also keep asking myself why on earth they haven't launched two of the most common lenses, a cheap 50mm and a medium fast, reasonably priced 85mm. It's like launching a sports car without a manual gearbox option.

It is OT. Another thread, perhaps?

 

[mjm6]

I hope we can still handhold this 50 MP camera, the shutter needs to be completely damped, otherwise a lot of threads are ahead of us.
We will need IBIS even more now.

Well, in truth, you mean to get the absolute most resolution delivery out of the sensor. NOT that it will be usable and possibly produce better images than a 24MP or 36MP camera when using the exact same handholding techniques.

All else created equal (which they aren't, but let's say the sensor is the same in all respects other than MP), you can handhold a 16MP camera, 24MP, 36MP, 50MP and they my or may not produce an image that resolves at the optical limits of the system (lens to sensor, with support from your hands). It is more likely that the 16MP system will be at or closer to the system integration limits than the 50MP image, but that doesn't mean that the 50MP will produce a worse image than the 16MP camera, and it is possible (likely?) that it will produce a better image, but by how much is unclear.

Also, the 50MP camera is not even 2x the pixel linear resolution of the 16MP, so the limits of resolution are certainly higher, but not so much so that they will produce a difference like 35mm to 4x5 does (in film terms). Clearly, the laws of diminishing returns are fully in force with these cameras.

---Michael

 

[jfirneno]

Okay I should not say this but screw it. I'm having a really hard time reading the comments over at SAR especially this announcement. I have held my tongue but they really need to get rid of the morons over there.

Guy:
I think they're actually toned down compared to before the recent monitoring changes. Of course it's no GetDPI, but Andrea is doing his best to keep it semi-civilized.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

He seems like a good guy. Wish them luck

 

[iiiNelson]

This comment i slightly off topic but regarding investing long term into a a Sony system it's as safe a bet as any other system right now in that we do see third party vendors investing a lot more into them in the last 18 months than they have in the last 10 years or so. Much of that has to do with the impact of the FE system.

No Sony is not a perfect camera company by any means and there is a lot of room for improvements. All things considered I personally rather them update their bodies on a yearly basis than have to wait 2-5 years for them to fix the shortcomings or wait that long only to find the successor to the camera you have is NOT the camera that you want.

Sony DOES have a PR issue but it didn't just start with the E-mount. They need to go out of their way to state who they are, what they currently make, what they're building, what they're building towards, put more cameras in the hands of more people doing the types of work that are complimentary to what they are offering, etc... Mostly to shut up the detractors that spew ignorant opinions for whatever the reason. I understand the cameras aren't for everyone and do come it's the closest thing to a FF 35mm digital back.

When Sony made those wonderful products (that everyone seems to love now but didn't buy when they were new like the A850/900) there were plenty in the CaNikon camps crapping on them because they didn't have tilt/shift or other specialty lenses - which naturally made the system as a whole "crap." All of the basics were mostly covered but it didn't sell as well as the inferior camera systems (from a technological standpoint.) What they did have was AF Zeiss lenses and built in IBIS for every lens. We saw how far that got them in the DSLR market.

If you're looking for an investment talk to your financial planner... or buy a Leica M special edition and keep it sealed all cameras lose a lot of value in a short time.

P.S. Jorgen The D610 wasn't selling for much more than a D7100 around Christmas time in USA and it probably had a lot to do with the D750 which is similarly spec'd. Digital cameras lose value... Nikon puts out similarly spec'd bodies just as Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and Olympus does as well... it's not a big deal.

 

[iiiNelson]

Okay I should not say this but screw it. I'm having a really hard time reading the comments over at SAR especially this announcement. I have held my tongue but they really need to get rid of the morons over there.

I agree and sometimes it rolls into their forums but it's much more tightly controlled in the forums naturally as it's easier to moderate I'm sure. I tend to stay away from the comments as they remind me of DPReview on a smaller scale. Just know it's a much different crowd over there on the SAR comments board... Generally all manual lenses are unacceptable, mention Leica and you get flame raged as a collector/1%-er, CaNikon are superior (I think 90% of the negative comments come from CaNikon owners,) everything Sony makes is too expensive, they need $500 FF Tri-Navi cameras, they need more $150 lenses that are able to outresolve the Otus lines, etc.

GodI'm getting a headache typing about it... So I just skim the stories and click the page back button.

 

[Vivek]

If you're looking for an investment talk to your financial planner... or buy a Leica M special edition and keep it sealed all cameras lose a lot of value in a short time.

Can't let that nugget pass.

The M60 (one of the digital Ms with no LCD) isn't selling at all it seems. Personally, i will spring for a digital M with no LCD and no sensor.

I am sure that is a gold mine for a dime.

 

[iiiNelson]

Can't let that nugget pass.

The M60 (one of the digital Ms with no LCD) isn't selling at all it seems. Personally, i will spring for a digital M with no LCD and no sensor.

I am sure that is a gold mine for a dime.

Yeah that's the exception... Most of the limited editions Leica M's sell well but a few of their more recent ones have been a great values (Safari M and 60th Anniversary S-Type 006) compared to buying the camera/lenses separately.

 

[deejjjaaaa]

Second hand A7 bodies sell for roughly the same as the 5-7 years old Nikon D700.

which is good at the same time = more people will get a taste of FE...

 

[philip_pj]

Digital camera depreciation is the modern age equivalent of film costs, only way less on a cost per image basis, and for many users a cost per keeper image basis. You should not expect these fabulous devices for very reasonable prices, then have them not lose market value. And like an old but still good car, they will then not owe you anything IF you can exercise GAS restraint, lol.

The a7 is an entry level body, Sony will continue to use it as a loss leader for price conscious groups - crop sensor users, low-mid DSLR users, upshifting compact users, new entrants, second camera buyers. That is why it got the ergo upgrades first - enticement. A bit like how the banks treat new customers better than existing customers.

 

[Annna T]

No Sony is not a perfect camera company by any means and there is a lot of room for improvements. All things considered I personally rather them update their bodies on a yearly basis than have to wait 2-5 years for them to fix the shortcomings or wait that long only to find the successor to the camera you have is NOT the camera that you want.

Sony DOES have a PR issue but it didn't just start with the E-mount. (....) Mostly to shut up the detractors that spew ignorant opinions for whatever the reason. I understand the cameras aren't for everyone and do come it's the closest thing to a FF 35mm digital back.

The main problem of Sony FE line is that compared to the others manufacturers, they are not offering a system. I bought an A7r because I liked what they were offering and the promise it seemed to hold (finally the equivalent of a digital rangefinder). But their problem isn't PR, it is that the FE mount isn't leading toward a coherent system. Compared to Canikon it is far from being a system, this is understandable of course, since the system is much younger. But MFT which I bought as a young system too back in 2009 held its promises much better and is now a complete and coherent system. Granted there were two manufacturers involved. But the same can be told from the FE mount, with one player (Zeiss) a renowned optical player.

Buying an A7r I made an hopeful bet, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it was the thing to do. I love the A7r, but each time a new lens is announced it is a little frustrating.

It isn't only Canikons fans that are criticizing the FE lens offering and how the system is developing. The problem isn't only a PR problem, it is the choice made for the lens system until now.

 

[iiiNelson]

The main problem of Sony FE line is that compared to the others manufacturers, they are not offering a system. I bought an A7r because I liked what they were offering and the promise it seemed to hold (finally the equivalent of a digital rangefinder). But their problem isn't PR, it is that the FE mount isn't leading toward a coherent system. Compared to Canikon it is far from being a system, this is understandable of course, since the system is much younger. But MFT which I bought as a young system too back in 2009 held its promises much better and is now a complete and coherent system. Granted there were two manufacturers involved. But the same can be told from the FE mount, with one player (Zeiss) a renowned optical player.

Buying an A7r I made an hopeful bet, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it was the thing to do. I love the A7r, but each time a new lens is announced it is a little frustrating.

It isn't only Canikons fans that are criticizing the FE lens offering and how the system is developing. The problem isn't only a PR problem, it is the choice made for the lens system until now.

I think the problem is more your expectations of the future of the FE system it applies specifically to your needs/desires. I personally love that they are putting out some fast primes and quality lenses (I understand that you and many others loathe the larger lenses even though there are some smaller alternatives/adapted lenses) as the alternative would lead me back to Leica and Micro 4/3... Or maybe another DSLR.

I too bought in Micro 4/3 and still own/use my Panasonic G1. I traded my Canon APS-C system for it and jumped into their waters head first. The reason I say Sony has a PR problem is that they need to address is to clear up any misconception that this is a digital rangefinder replacement... I see it as more of an in between camera/compact DB.

I believe for your needs Micro 4/3 combined with a tech camera (or maybe a Canon 5Ds with lineup of T/S lenses) to do your landscape/architecture is the perfect system for you as you seem to put size and compactness towards the top of your list. You've stated that you don't have a need or desire for fast lenses and that DOF isn't a huge concern of yours. I don't know that the Sony FE system is really for you and that's okay. Choice is good for us all and no need to stay under a product cloud that doesn't meet your needs.

Over the last year many owners have/continue to bemoan deficiencies in camera design, menus, lens sizes, lens lineup, etc. I think in the way Sony tried to consolidate as a unified "Alpha" brand but maybe they didn't go quite far enough with it all... It's at least confusing to many unfamiliar with Sony.

 

[Slingers]

Okay I should not say this but screw it. I'm having a really hard time reading the comments over at SAR especially this announcement. I have held my tongue but they really need to get rid of the morons over there.

I stopped commenting over there because I couldn't be bothered reading most of the comments. It used to be so interesting in the comment section.

 

[fotografz]

This comment i slightly off topic but regarding investing long term into a a Sony system it's as safe a bet as any other system right now in that we do see third party vendors investing a lot more into them in the last 18 months than they have in the last 10 years or so. Much of that has to do with the impact of the FE system.

No Sony is not a perfect camera company by any means and there is a lot of room for improvements. All things considered I personally rather them update their bodies on a yearly basis than have to wait 2-5 years for them to fix the shortcomings or wait that long only to find the successor to the camera you have is NOT the camera that you want.

Sony DOES have a PR issue but it didn't just start with the E-mount. They need to go out of their way to state who they are, what they currently make, what they're building, what they're building towards, put more cameras in the hands of more people doing the types of work that are complimentary to what they are offering, etc... Mostly to shut up the detractors that spew ignorant opinions for whatever the reason. I understand the cameras aren't for everyone and do come it's the closest thing to a FF 35mm digital back.

When Sony made those wonderful products (that everyone seems to love now but didn't buy when they were new like the A850/900) there were plenty in the CaNikon camps crapping on them because they didn't have tilt/shift or other specialty lenses - which naturally made the system as a whole "crap." All of the basics were mostly covered but it didn't sell as well as the inferior camera systems (from a technological standpoint.) What they did have was AF Zeiss lenses and built in IBIS for every lens. We saw how far that got them in the DSLR market.

If you're looking for an investment talk to your financial planner... or buy a Leica M special edition and keep it sealed all cameras lose a lot of value in a short time.

P.S. Jorgen The D610 wasn't selling for much more than a D7100 around Christmas time in USA and it probably had a lot to do with the D750 which is similarly spec'd. Digital cameras lose value... Nikon puts out similarly spec'd bodies just as Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and Olympus does as well... it's not a big deal.

As an early and continuous Sony user, I have a slightly different perspective.

While Sony did produce a worthy FF camera in the A900/850, it fell short in key functional areas that had been well established by Canon/Nikon. For example, (lack of T/S lenses aside) a key error on their part was lack of Live View on the A900. Also, the initial A900 was prone to noise at lower ISOs than C/N. Etc. Things like that become a reason not to switch systems for many serious "system photographers".

All that aside, I bought into the Sony A900 as a system because the A mount lens line-up was relatively well fleshed out already and replaced my defunct Contax ND and Zeiss N AF lenses. Many key ZA focal lengths (fast f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4, f/1.8 primes), supplemented by G optics, made it a usable system for wedding/event/portrait. It was the Zeiss AF lenses that drew me in, NOT the cameras.

However, much as I wished and hoped, Zeiss has not produced a ZA35/1.4 to round out the ZA signature series ... which is a must have systems lens. ZA28/2 and ZA50/1.4 were added, but no ZA35/1.4!

So, I'm probably alone in this group in hoping the rumored 50 meg MAY be an A-Mount "flagship" replacement.

Financially, I don't care about camera depreciation, but I sure as hell don't want the substantial investment in ZA lenses to take a dive off a cliff for lack of a A mount continuation ... Like my Contax N experience.

I also agree with Annna T regarding the FE system.

It isn't just haters/detractors spewing ignorant opinions, or a PR issue with Sony. There was an inherent promise at least implied by A7/A7R. Like many others, my first reaction was ... "WOW! Finally, a digital Leica CL ... more supported by the little FE35/2.8 than the larger FE55/1.8. The very first thing many Leica M users went for was trying their M lenses. Disappointment ensued. Slow aperture biggish lenses, then substantial size creep with anything faster. Coupled with EFV lag, the expectation of a digital CL were effectively dashed.

Of course individual expectations aren't Sony's fault ... and the adaptability of so many "favored" legacy lenses from many makers DID meet other's expectations. Yet, those attributes do not make a cohesive small AF system with an optical signature that produces similar characteristics across the line for continuity of image from different focal lengths.

- Marc