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Thread: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

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    Red face When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    The Biteus 85/1.8 with its 3% pincussion distortion is now touted as a "must have for every serious Sony shooter". Luckily, I am not serious and may not even be a Sony shooter for long.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I was shocked to see that and cancelled my order. Its a tamron designed lens.

    Will get the 25mm only.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I thought it was a must have with or without Lloyd Chambers approval whether you are a "serious" Sony shooter of not.

    End of the day - it doesn't really matter what the distortion is if it is adequately corrected in software (no this isn't a Sony apologist argument but a fact that just about everyone is releasing lens corrections for modern lenses.) No one is seriously going to forego any sort of processing be it in camera JPEG or using your RAW converter of choice.

    I'm not trying to persuade people in either direction but rather provide rational perspective. A set of pictures taken with a lens are worth so much more than graphs/words more often than not IMO.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Luckily, I am not serious and may not even be a Sony shooter for long.
    Best of luck with your new camera system and your photography.
    Regards,
    John
    Sony fanboy, shamelessly shilling for "the man" since 2010.

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I thought it was a must have with or without Lloyd Chambers approval whether you are a "serious" Sony shooter of not.
    +1. Not much different in the distortion department from several other recent offerings incl. the much touted Sony FE 28/2 and the now already claimed to be legendary Leica Q.

    Btw, the lens is called Batis
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I thought it was a must have with or without Lloyd Chambers approval whether you are a "serious" Sony shooter of not.

    End of the day - it doesn't really matter what the distortion is if it is adequately corrected in software (no this isn't a Sony apologist argument but a fact that just about everyone is releasing lens corrections for modern lenses.) No one is seriously going to forego any sort of processing be it in camera JPEG or using your RAW converter of choice.

    I'm not trying to persuade people in either direction but rather provide rational perspective. A set of pictures taken with a lens are worth so much more than graphs/words more often than not IMO.
    It started with Zeiss posting handheld portraits using (what they claimed to be) an A7r. I bet there is no firmware for these lenses for the A7r. The charts they supply are with the in camera corrections.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post

    Btw, the lens is called Batis
    Oops! Not biteus!
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Vivek, your such a character dude

    With the software correction, I found both of these lenses to be excellent when I tried them last week. Both are going in my bag when they become available. My impressions, sample stills and video here: http://thecameraforum.com/cinegear-2...s-bots-drones/
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Don't we just have 3 percent distortion anyway at our age. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Is anyone seriously going to shoot and use these lenses without the software correction? Heck even our $6-9k technical camera lenses have software correction options in Capture One.

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I think this is the price of making the lens small, plain and simple. Software correction works fine most of the time.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Vivek, your such a character dude

    With the software correction, I found both of these lenses to be excellent when I tried them last week. Both are going in my bag when they become available. My impressions, sample stills and video here: http://thecameraforum.com/cinegear-2...s-bots-drones/
    The new Sheiss is not the old Zeiss. The only value proposition here is the Sony electronics that gets upgraded every year or so.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The new Sheiss is not the old Zeiss.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Look at the Leica Q, which is no different. I personally would rather have this compromise with software correction than carry another half kilo attached to the front of my camera. If the files look good the files look good. I could not care less about anything else

    Quality Control will need to be good. The 35mm FE Sonnar fiasco has me wary.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    The new era of professional photography:
    http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/e...ges/batis.html
    Point 2: "We do not make compromises with the lens." REALLY?
    Point 9: "We are ready for the future." I'm literally scared now for the future lens development.
    Point 10: "We are the "New Pros": a new generation of photographers." No comments.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I saw that and it scares the Sheiss out.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    What is the concern - I'm trying to understand.

    Is it that the software distortion control reduces quality? What about if 'corrected' frames perform just great (and measurably so)?

    Is it that its reportedly a Tokina design? What if quality control is great and tested optical quality is top tier?

    I see a lot of concern, but I am not exactly sure what it is that has been identified as the problem?

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I think this might be the concern. How much you can "see" of this in actual use can be discussed at length here in the forum

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think this might be the concern. How much you can "see" of this in actual use can be discussed at length here in the forum
    Well, there is truth in LensRental saying. But on the other hand, they have tested a zoom which has already very weak corners with respect to center sharpness. So of course they will get even worse. However if the lens is good in the corners, chances that you can see a significative (aka perceivable with naked eyes in a print) degradation of the corners are lower than with such a weak zoom.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    What is the concern - I'm trying to understand.

    Is it that the software distortion control reduces quality? What about if 'corrected' frames perform just great (and measurably so)?

    Is it that its reportedly a Tokina design? What if quality control is great and tested optical quality is top tier?

    I see a lot of concern, but I am not exactly sure what it is that has been identified as the problem?
    No one is making up any concerns/issues. Check Malina's post (#15). If that does not raise any concerns, you should be good to go with these.

    FWIW, it is Tamron and not Tokina.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    The lensrentals link highlights an important point:

    It's well known among lens designers that when designing a lens correcting distortion often reduces resolution
    So why add more glass to achieve the same result? I'd rather have a smaller, lighter lens and be able to choose whether or not to correct the distortion.

    I'm also not sure why people care where the lens design came from (Tamron or whatever).
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    That's it: if the subject matter shot with the camera and show in file is of exceptional resolution then it matters not. The LensRentals test was done with a SLR lens, so presumably that shows a whole image, shot and then processed to correct distortion, rather than with mirrorless, where I guess there is more scope for manipulating what you actually see on screen with the camera.

    For me, if the image I see through the finder (A) translates to a superb file (B), then there is nothing more to worry about. Worrying about what happens behind the scenes to get from A to B seems fairly pointless. This seems to be worrying about a theoretical argument that presently stands in contrast to the (admittedly few) positive view that have surfaced. We will find out in due course, but it seems that some people are upset about the principle of the matter... as if they have been shortchanged... without reference to the output being what actually determines quality. This seems about as logical as complaining that you don't like the carbon fibre in your racing car because it feels light and cheap, you know, like where is the metal I paid for - you can feel that stuff!

    As for the no compromises angle Zeiss is taking, this is marketing for the less informed, but we all recognise that there is no such thing as no compromises, otherwise all lenses would be the size of a watermelon (which would perform less well than the fridge sized one). The Otus is massively larger than the Batis, yet the Batis is supposedly stunning. Software correction has been traded for bulk. Yes, there is a compromise, but if the resultant corrected frames are great, then they are great.

    Mirrorless is a different world to DSLR and I think we have to move with the times. There is no such thing as a free lunch, so its not fair to expect the performance of an Otus in a package 60% smaller/lighter without something given up. I doubt Zeiss would have gone this route if we were going to get poor corners as a result.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Actually, I don't care if it is a Tamron lens with a blue label or whatever since I won't buy it. In case I do, I would only pay for the lens and not the label.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post

    I'm also not sure why people care where the lens design came from (Tamron or whatever).

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    That's it: if the subject matter shot with the camera and show in file is of exceptional resolution then it matters not. The LensRentals test was done with a SLR lens, so presumably that shows a whole image, shot and then processed to correct distortion, rather than with mirrorless, where I guess there is more scope for manipulating what you actually see on screen with the camera.

    For me, if the image I see through the finder (A) translates to a superb file (B), then there is nothing more to worry about. Worrying about what happens behind the scenes to get from A to B seems fairly pointless. This seems to be worrying about a theoretical argument that presently stands in contrast to the (admittedly few) positive view that have surfaced. We will find out in due course, but it seems that some people are upset about the principle of the matter... as if they have been shortchanged... without reference to the output being what actually determines quality. This seems about as logical as complaining that you don't like the carbon fibre in your racing car because it feels light and cheap, you know, like where is the metal I paid for - you can feel that stuff!

    As for the no compromises angle Zeiss is taking, this is marketing for the less informed, but we all recognise that there is no such thing as no compromises, otherwise all lenses would be the size of a watermelon (which would perform less well than the fridge sized one). The Otus is massively larger than the Batis, yet the Batis is supposedly stunning. Software correction has been traded for bulk. Yes, there is a compromise, but if the resultant corrected frames are great, then they are great.

    Mirrorless is a different world to DSLR and I think we have to move with the times. There is no such thing as a free lunch, so its not fair to expect the performance of an Otus in a package 60% smaller/lighter without something given up. I doubt Zeiss would have gone this route if we were going to get poor corners as a result.
    I think we are just in the age where SOME like to complain for the sake of complaining. Some complaints are legitimate... Many are irrational. This is/will be an irrational argument after the improved lens corrections are released in camera firmware and RAW software.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Time will tell if "rational" or "irrational" applies.

    Pegelli, Do you plan on even getting a FF NEX or is it something of a rational support for anything Sony related?

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Personally I haven't cared for any of the images I've seen taken with the Batis 85. Perhaps this will change.

    I'm more interested in the Zeiss promotional video http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/e...ges/batis.html of the landscape photographer who seems to not care about his non weather sealed A7 series with his weather sealed Batis lens ...
    Am I missing something here, I've read horror stories about lightly splashed A7 going haywire.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Pegelli, Do you plan on even getting a FF NEX or is it something of a rational support for anything Sony related?
    Still waiting for the a7S II
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Eoin, The whole video is missing. 404 error- does not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    Personally I haven't cared for any of the images I've seen taken with the Batis 85. Perhaps this will change.

    I'm more interested in the Zeiss promotional video 404 | ZEISS International of the landscape photographer who seems to not care about his non weather sealed A7 series with his weather sealed Batis lens ...
    Am I missing something here, I've read horror stories about lightly splashed A7 going haywire.
    If that is true, I would have done the same thing as well. Heck, if I am given an evaluation sample, I will toss it in the air.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I'm one of the people concerned about distortion with the Batis 85 because I shoot a lot of urban landscape, with plenty of straight lines visible. This is one of the reasons I'm also considering the larger, heavier 90mm macro, which has virtually no distortion.

    However, I am waiting to see. One thing I have read is that Zeiss calculates distortion differently from other companies (and reviewers). The Zeiss calculation is said to give a percentage roughly twice that of other calculations.

    Between that factor and the unknown factor of how destructive software correction actually is, I'm willing to suspend judgement.

    So far, early reviewers are mostly interested in wide-open performance and portraiture. The few squared-up images I have been able to access online have definite pin-cushion distortion, but it isn't horrible. I estimate about a -4 to -6 Distortion correction in ACR.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    Thanks.

    Load of something "rational" for sure.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Whether with the Q, FE 28 or other highly distorted formulas, the correction comes at a cost, though perhaps most don't notice or care.

    I find the lax attitude in the Leica and RF forums to the Q's distortion pretty funny, since many users constantly sing the tiny advantages of film

    As to Zeiss: so heavily branded you have to take the offering one lens at a time, and you better check to see it's properly centered.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by davidstock View Post
    I'm one of the people concerned about distortion with the Batis 85 because I shoot a lot of urban landscape, with plenty of straight lines visible. This is one of the reasons I'm also considering the larger, heavier 90mm macro, which has virtually no distortion.

    However, I am waiting to see. One thing I have read is that Zeiss calculates distortion differently from other companies (and reviewers). The Zeiss calculation is said to give a percentage roughly twice that of other calculations.

    Between that factor and the unknown factor of how destructive software correction actually is, I'm willing to suspend judgement.

    So far, early reviewers are mostly interested in wide-open performance and portraiture. The few squared-up images I have been able to access online have definite pin-cushion distortion, but it isn't horrible. I estimate about a -4 to -6 Distortion correction in ACR.
    Anyone shooting architectural subjects will agree with this if you are serious about that kind of shooting.

    When I first saw the performance of the 24-70 lens I simply couldn't believe how much distortion they permitted in the design! It would be simply impossible to compose an image where the framing of the subject is carefully considered with this lens, as you never really know how much of the image is going to be thrown out during the correction step.

    I consider this a poor compromise on the part of Sony/Zeiss. Yes, it is possible that it results in smaller lenses, and possibly subtly sharper corner performance (but I doubt it). But, you get that at the expense of never actually knowing what the composition will ultimately look like until in the computer after the fact.

    With lenses like this, we're back to the realm of rangefinders and approximate framing techniques; shoot wider than needed and crop later.


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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Defeats the whole idea of live view, doesn't it?
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Defeats the whole idea of live view, doesn't it?
    Unfortunately, yes.

    I would have kept my M9 and (non-ASPH) Leica glass if I wanted approximate composition. That system certainly had that in spades, and I found it frustrating that I couldn't get closer to a well-considered composition with that system.

    Well, that and the the fact that I didn't consider their inability to produce a properly functioning piece of electronics to be 'quaint' or part of the 'Leica Charm'...



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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Look at the Leica Q, which is no different. I personally would rather have this compromise with software correction than carry another half kilo attached to the front of my camera. If the files look good the files look good. I could not care less about anything else

    Quality Control will need to be good. The 35mm FE Sonnar fiasco has me wary.
    Tom, couldn't have said it better myself. And dude, it would be more like a couple extra kilos body and lens.

    If my files look good, my clients don't care what camera is used. If my files don't look good, my former clients won't care what camera was used either!

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Mr. Jones, You confuse me. One day you are waxing lyrics on theHollywood distagon and how they don't make it like in the good of' days and now you are batting for the "new pro standard". Which one of your pieces in your blog should I follow?

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Mr. Jones, You confuse me. One day you are waxing lyrics on theHollywood distagon and how they don't make it like in the good of' days and now you are batting for the "new pro standard". Which one of your pieces in your blog should I follow?
    I only own one Sony autofocus Zeiss lens, the 55mm f/1.8. I've passed on any of the others, preferring to stick with my older glass with more "juice." I still own and use the 28mm Hollywood Distagon, which works on everything, including my Sony bodies.

    The Batis lenses are both excellent from just a few mins of testing I got to do with them, and beautifully constructed. Build quality is at least as good as any lens Zeiss ever made in my opinion. But until the 25mm is sitting here to test side by side I can't say which is the better wide lens on Sony bodies, though I suspect the Batis will give the 28mm Hollywood a real battle, looking at image samples from both. Zeiss has promised a test sample as soon as a few more get into the country, so I will let you know on that one as soon as I know myself. The Hollywood though is manual focus only, where Batis is both manual and autofocus.

    I can quite safely say that the 28mm f/2 will be the superior lens on my Olympus OM-D EM-5 II, Canon 5D III, and about anything else I want to put it on. It's the old apples and oranges argument thing Vivek, and yes, it is confusing. Batis is a SONY FE MOUNT ONLY LENS. Worthless on any other body, unless you care to try correcting that 3% distortion manually yourself and only if the flange focal distance would work, doubtful in both cases.

    The 28mm Hollywood is in the same category as the newer OTUS lineup. Can be used with adapters on almost anything ever made. If you look around on my blog your also going to find that I own and use a Zeiss Distagon made by Rollei (40mm) which presently I would say is even better than the Hollywood wide open. But you think the OTUS is big and heavy, you should try the Rollei 40mm

    So pick your poison, beautiful old tech with juice, though heavy, looks good and works on anything, or modern autofocus & tack sharp across the frame at half the weight and twice the size, but limited by software interconnection to Sony A series bodies only. Me, I never met a Zeiss lens I didn't love, so I see the two as complementary. You seem to see it as the anti-Christ, and you haven't even SEEN it yet.

    But then neither has my wife. She'll just see it as yet another budget killer. And you know what? Of all of us, she is the most correct.
    Last edited by Chuck Jones; 16th June 2015 at 15:42.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Thanks for that, Chuck!

    One small correction- if Zeiis were to come out with one of their newsletters on certain special lenses, I can supply some samples that they may not have seen in real life. I don't know where batus belongs be it Zeiss or Tamron.

    BTW, don't you think Michael articulated one issue very well?

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    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    When I first saw the performance of the 24-70 lens I simply couldn't believe how much distortion they permitted in the design! It would be simply impossible to compose an image where the framing of the subject is carefully considered with this lens, as you never really know how much of the image is going to be thrown out during the correction step.
    Um, I was under the impression that live view has the lens corrections already applied so framing correctly is not an issue.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Thanks for that, Chuck!

    One small correction- if Zeiis were to come out with one of their newsletters on certain special lenses, I can supply some samples that they may not have seen in real life. I don't know where batus belongs be it Zeiss or Tamron.

    BTW, don't you think Michael articulated one issue very well?
    I have no idea about the Zeiss or Tamron thing, though again I will say these Batis are right up there build quality wise with the OTUS, just a whole lot lighter and smaller. At about one third the cost! Fastest autofocus lenses I've had on my A7S too, so that lighter glass seems to assist autofocus speed as well.

    Michael's issue is something I'm not fully understanding I guess. My friends who are architectural photographers use tilt shift lenses to do this correction in camera. And for exactly the reasons Michael brings up they most often shoot tethered to a laptop to check each shot. I can be witness that the electronic "level" in the A7R is a bit of a joke - its never accurately level!

    Anything you shoot where your worried about parallax without a T/S lens tethered to a laptop, your always going to have the issue of not knowing exactly where the end frame lines are going to fall until you finish your corrections in post. Shoot tethered, and use a T/S lens, and you should be able to correct with a couple degrees of rise and/or shift in camera and see what your going to have on your laptop screen before you get home. Software enhanced lenses have nothing to do with that one way or the other. Your live view is only going to be accurate if you T/S correct the parallax distortions in camera. Since neither Batis presently announced is a T/S lens, I don't see the difference.

    I like to get it right in camera whenever possible anyway. Not only saves potential for later problems, it sure simplifies the workflow.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    The Sony FE 28/2 also AF s very fast on the A7s. I doubt anything will be slow on the A7s. It is the camera and not the lens.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Dunno what went wrong with Roger's test, but distortion is an outer frame phenomenon, as is clear from any CZ data chart. And of course a mass market Canon zoom is not a CZ prime, is it? Not in any way, shape or form.

    BTW, Roger also recently reported the mighty Zeiss 21/2.8 - a veritable landmine of distortion according to some - and found it grew an arm and a leg when used on the new Canon 50Mp bodies. No surprises to anyone who uses one.

    http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015...solution-tests

    And I do hope the naysayers jumped all over Leica S and other medium format lens producers relying heavily on s/w distortion control. ;-) When you have more to start with (IQ), it becomes a viable design option, and many users don't even correct for distortion (which may in any event increase the impact of the image).

    "..other high-end cameras have been doing it for years. Every single Hasselblad H-series body (those with a dedicated digital back) corrects for its 28mm f/4 lens this way, as has Phase One. And that Leica S system? Yup."

    http://friedmanarchives.blogspot.com...eiss-lens.html

    And distortion also varies widely with focal distance and may not play well with FLEs.
    Zeiss have always said that 2% is the target threshold, below that is near to invisible if consistent in form. This BadAss 85 is primarily a *portrait* lens and a damn fine one at that. Good luck searching the image OOF at f1.8-f4 for that extra 1%.

    As much is indicated in the 3D Kraft review, which incidentally also shows the Nikkor 85/1.8G to be horribly inflicted with LoCA and ugly OOF character:

    http://3d-kraft.com/index.php?option...id=40&Itemid=2

    So the BadAss 85 looks like a fantastic lens to me - IQ barely below Otus 85, and ahead of 100MP and ZM 85/2, comfortably so in fact. Zeiss merely chose which aberration to trade off for the lovely bokeh/OOF fade character and super MTF, and as they nearly always do, did it with panache and judgment.

    It has unbeatable ergonomics for the small bodies, a fine hood, excellent construction. Put on a new a7rII you have an industrial grade street/travel weapon - a ~1000 gram combo of the best new high resolution sensor (with even better sensitivity than a7r), IBIS, fast AF and lens IS. What are the opposition doing? What they have always done. ;-)
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    In their pressers, CZ are trying to hint that many serious 'results oriented' new age photographers have to be much more governed by practical concerns.

    The user groups targeted by CZ with the Batis range are now morphing from well-heeled gentlemanly elders setting up up tripods at their leisure for an afternoon's enjoyment with giant heavy DSLR and correspondingly large Zeiss ZEF prime lenses..towards keen eyed shooters who can actually use high level optics on cameras with class leading image quality, rapid AF for focus acquisition, high sensitivity and several stops of stability. These users need high hit rates and consistency in a variety of locations without huge time commitments. This is a good working definition of travel photography.

    Seen this way, 700g-1100g Zeiss manual focus lenses simply won't work. They are an exercise in frustration for all travel shooters, weigh too much, frighten small children and animals...they simply don't work in the field! Which renders any advantage they possess in minimal distortion and tiny gains in performance...absolutely moot.

    So that is the paradigm shift away from the older ZE/ZF/Otus DSLR ranges into the new age FE range, emphasising high impact and high utility. For some of us anyway, it just gets better and better with Sony and CZ.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Good points. Don't forget the cost of producing that "perfect" lens. $1,200 for the Batis 85mm looks like a bargain when you factor in AF, weather sealing, OSS and superb build quality. Not to mention the actual field results look solid.

    The question is what is one supposed to do now with the collection of Leica R's - APO 100, APO 180, etc? The new AF lenses look very tempting for the A7 system. Not having to deal with adapters or manual focus is a big plus.

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    In their pressers, CZ are trying to hint that many serious 'results oriented' new age photographers have to be much more governed by practical concerns.

    The user groups targeted by CZ with the Batis range are now morphing from well-heeled gentlemanly elders setting up up tripods at their leisure for an afternoon's enjoyment with giant heavy DSLR and correspondingly large Zeiss ZEF prime lenses..towards keen eyed shooters who can actually use high level optics on cameras with class leading image quality, rapid AF for focus acquisition, high sensitivity and several stops of stability. These users need high hit rates and consistency in a variety of locations without huge time commitments. This is a good working definition of travel photography.

    Seen this way, 700g-1100g Zeiss manual focus lenses simply won't work. They are an exercise in frustration for all travel shooters, weigh too much, frighten small children and animals...they simply don't work in the field! Which renders any advantage they possess in minimal distortion and tiny gains in performance...absolutely moot.

    So that is the paradigm shift away from the older ZE/ZF/Otus DSLR ranges into the new age FE range, emphasising high impact and high utility. For some of us anyway, it just gets better and better with Sony and CZ.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Take photos of the things you love and the 'distortion' and 'technical limitations' are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

    We're seriously in danger of forgetting why you take photos in the first place. Who gives a **** about perfection - not me at least.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    I have no interest in acquiring Batis 85/1.8. I'm very happy with the results I get from a 85mm Planar.
    Everyone is free to decide how to spend his hard earned money.
    It's up to Zeiss to choose how they achieve "no compromise" lens designs. And if one doesn't care how they solve intricate optical aberrations, there are others who would love to be explained to, since there's no guarantee that the lens data profile will be read by future camera models or be available in your choice of RAW converter.
    Do you really want every other manufacturer to start publishing MTF, distortion, vignetting graphs after algorithmic corrections by image processor?
    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think this might be the concern. How much you can "see" of this in actual use can be discussed at length here in the forum
    My concern is the distortion that a profile doesn't/can't fix entirely.
    Later in comments Roger adds:
    "2) The differences aren't just 'better or worse'. The type of distortion, resolution of the image, distance of the shot, depth of field, aperture of exposure, contrast, etc., all could have an effect."

    Though he might be relating to resolution loss only, 3D objects are tough to correct for distortion in post unless you have a computerized axial tomography scan of the object in your profile database that could take into account all the aspects above.
    But hey, it's up you to decide how important a proper line rendering is and how much distortion you wish to deal with.

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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    We're seriously in danger of forgetting why you take photos in the first place. Who gives a **** about perfection - not me at least.
    When I take an image of a "perfect subject", I do hope a lens doesn't screw it up and a sensor records colors properly.
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Stop staring into your navels and shoot enjoyable images. The (**** - theoretical) pixel peeping will drive you to unnecessary distraction ...

    My $0.02 again
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: When a 3% pincussion makes you a "serious shooter"..

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    pixel peeping will drive you to unnecessary distraction ...
    Distortion has nothing to do with pixel peeping, at least for me. It's easily visible in web sizes.
    I'm concerned about values current Zeiss marketing machine promotes.
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