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Thread: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

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    Senior Member MikeEvangelist's Avatar
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    A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Interview in Imaging Resource with Kimio Maki of Sony, where he seems to say they are working on it, and that it could be a firmware-only change!

    Sony Q&A: The must-have sensor tech of the future?

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    I'd love to know what Sony's hardware and software experts actually think about that particular feature request I think sometimes if a company listens too closely to the advice of internet pundits, they may put themselves in the position of taking technical advice from people who don't actually understand the technology (high-end audio, I'm looking at you). I guess the real question is whether I'd be able to spot even the most subtle differences with any degree of reliability. And if not, why waste disk space.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    As mentioned elsewhere, lossless compression would be more desirable. Uncompressed raw would be a waste of disc space. The lossy compression scheme right now only shows up under very specific condition.
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Well if Sony is listening I'd like them to add an in-camera RAW 1:1, 4:5, and 4:3 ratio option to go along with the 3:2 and 16:9 ones through firmware. I'm sure plenty of portrait shooters would agree that would be a great feature.
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    The lossy compression scheme right now only shows up under very specific condition.
    What hardware did you use, and what did you observe?

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    As mentioned elsewhere, lossless compression would be more desirable. Uncompressed raw would be a waste of disc space.
    It's not totally clear from the interview, but I'd guess they meant lossless compression, rather than actually uncompressed.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    I'm sure they meant lossless compression...

    The a900 has the option for both, so they have already done the work to achieve this in previous cameras. Seems like it would be nice to bring it back for the cases where it is beneficial.

    I, for one, would shoot in lossless for all of my work because contrast and exposure adjustments for B&W images (in particular if you are employing color filtration impacts) can be far greater than you would ever do in color, and all kinds of noise artifacts, color (levels) clipping, and compression becomes much more apparent.

    Hell, let's just go to 16-bit and be done with it while we're at it! Hahaha... It will happen eventually...


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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    16bit. Let us hope that Samsung does it for their NX. That and only that will prompt Sony to act.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    it would be very cool to it backfitted to A7 series, but i have yet to come across any real situation that i suffer due to the raw compression so far... *touchwood*
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    What hardware did you use, and what did you observe?
    You mean which camera? I have the A7s. All the recent Sony bodies have this lossy scheme that would show up in very high contrast situation or when you are at the border of such and push the highlight and shadow in post to the extreme. For my style, it has not been a problem. So I wouldn't care if they come out with one or not, though it's a nice to know I get all the potentials of my sensor .

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    I would really hope they would do that for the NEX-5N. I have renewed interest in that camera for many reasons. If they do Sony will "make.believe" slogan come true.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    You mean which camera? I have the A7s. All the recent Sony bodies have this lossy scheme that would show up in very high contrast situation or when you are at the border of such and push the highlight and shadow in post to the extreme. For my style, it has not been a problem. So I wouldn't care if they come out with one or not, though it's a nice to know I get all the potentials of my sensor .
    But what if you already are seeing the limitations of the sensor itself?

    Back when I had a Leica M9, I compared the standard DNG (17 mb) to Uncompressed DNG (30 mb), took photos of clouds, sun and what-not trying to see if I could gain a smidgen more ability to recover details and handle high contrast situations a little better. Short answer: Nope! Back when the M8 was a current model, this matter was addressed in Leica Fotographie International, and at the time, the company claimed that their lossy compression was of no consequence. And in retrospect, I think this was true, even if their buyers didn't want to believe it!

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Comparisons between Nikon D800E and the Sony A7R's files have been made and discussed with many examples. There are differences.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    But what if you already are seeing the limitations of the sensor itself?

    Back when I had a Leica M9, I compared the standard DNG (17 mb) to Uncompressed DNG (30 mb), took photos of clouds, sun and what-not trying to see if I could gain a smidgen more ability to recover details and handle high contrast situations a little better. Short answer: Nope! Back when the M8 was a current model, this matter was addressed in Leica Fotographie International, and at the time, the company claimed that their lossy compression was of no consequence. And in retrospect, I think this was true, even if their buyers didn't want to believe it!
    The M9 used 8-bit lossless compression (~18MB per picture) whereas the Uncompressed 12-bit file was ~37MB.I never noticed a significant difference but there was one present looking side by side in tests. It wasn't anythin that would "ruin" a picture or make a bad one good though.
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    But what if you already are seeing the limitations of the sensor itself?

    Back when I had a Leica M9, I compared the standard DNG (17 mb) to Uncompressed DNG (30 mb), took photos of clouds, sun and what-not trying to see if I could gain a smidgen more ability to recover details and handle high contrast situations a little better. Short answer: Nope! Back when the M8 was a current model, this matter was addressed in Leica Fotographie International, and at the time, the company claimed that their lossy compression was of no consequence. And in retrospect, I think this was true, even if their buyers didn't want to believe it!
    The most apparent one is when you look at the raw file under RawDigger, but otherwise, it's quite hard to produce the artifact under normal shooting. Most people would bring up the star trail example. Very few actually saw them with heavy post processing with extreme push and pull highlight and shadow. It's actually harder to spot than lens' field curvature cause I have seen plenty of those.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Never seen the issue.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Never seen the issue.
    Me either but if Sony keeps being responsive scratching assessed shortcomings off of people's list then they'll have little excuse beside the fact that they don't want to own a Sony to complain about. So in that aspect I'm glad that they're working on all of the concerns people have.

    Now about that FE Monochrom camera since Leica is coming after the fixed lens market now... An A7m based on the A7RII sounds pretty good... 4k monochrome recording... 42.4MP shots... Sounds like a "dream."
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Comparisons between Nikon D800E and the Sony A7R's files have been made and discussed with many examples. There are differences.
    i guess it’s customary to add to your first post with a hello?
    so Hello, i used to post over at that other forum but got tired of the browbeating trolls and this seems a good place for discussion and learning.

    back on topic:

    i have read a lot about the compression of A7r raws but while i appreciate that for star trails people have had issues i haven’t seen any in my ‘general’ still-life and landscape photography and am surprised people post saying ‘i’ll never buy an A7 until this is fixed’ when they will probably never see any artifacts in ‘general’ use.

    i do a lot of retouching and see more file degradation in clients d800 files than i do in those from my A7r. maybe it’s something to do with the nef’s and capture 1 but i’m very happy with the A7r and will probably upgrade to the mkII to use with digital lenses/cambo actus.
    if the uncompressed raw or lossless compression never happens it’s not going to influence a purchasing decision
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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Mr.Smith, Welcome. I do not have much of any strong opinions/convictions on this. The cams I use work for me and for my use.

    [FWIW, whatever I complained about earlier on Sony stuff (NEX-5N- I wanted one with a built in EVF- got it in my NEX-6, that is just one example), it got rectified and delivered. I also have no interest in other platforms.]

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    If you work with both Sony and Leica RAWs, you will see "the issue". Sony Raws are less responsive to changes and make noise faster in LR for me. I have long disliked the Sony RAWS.

    I might even take the risk of a Sony firmware upgrade to have the feature.

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    Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    If you work with both Sony and Leica RAWs, you will see "the issue". Sony Raws are less responsive to changes and make noise faster in LR for me. I have long disliked the Sony RAWS.

    I might even take the risk of a Sony firmware upgrade to have the feature.
    That is the absolute complete opposite of my experience but I was shooting with the M9 bodies...At or near base ISO the M9 files are malleable. Once you start getting around ISO 640 they are significantly less so. Above ISO 1250 I generally just make it B&W if it requires heavy processing.

    With SONY I feel that ISO 1600-2500 gives me about the same flexibility as ISO640 on a M9. I find ISO 3200-5000 on A7/A7R gives be about the same processing flexibility as ISO 1250 on a M9.

    This is using either Lightroom, DXO Optics, or Capture One.
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    Thumbs down Re: A7-series could get uncompressed raw via firmware - Sony says

    I have a suggestion.... (not that it hasn't been suggested before as I'm sure it must have), why don't you folks who claim to see the sony compression problem help convince us who have never noticed it by showing an example of it in your affected images. And, I don't mean pointing to the tired-out star trail example others always seem to point to. I mean specifically your OWN examples. I have thousands of A7r landscape and nature shots and I'll be darned if I can see a problem, so please help me see the issue.

    Thanks ever so much and Cheers, Monty
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