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A7RII with Leica M lenses

V

Vivek

Guest
I haven't done a systematic survey but the 21mm super-elmer is gorgeous corner to corner wide open, as is the 28mm Elmarit Asph.
:worthless:
 

Deliberate1

New member
it's nice to be able to balance the colors when making BW conversions. Anyone want a nice Monochrom?

Kirk

Path, fence, and bough by Kirk Thompson, on Flickr

(MATE @ 35mm)
Friend, I am rather torn between buying a pre-owned M Monochrom to pair with my M9, primarily to get better low light performance, or an a7rii to potentially cover all the bases. My hesitation has to do with the uncertainty of compatibility of my Leica glass, especially my Summilux 50mm ASPH, with the new Sony given the sensor thickness issue.
Can you share your experience with converted BW images from the Sony vs. the monochrom. I am sure that some examples would be appreciated by everyone as well.
Much obliged.
 

Deliberate1

New member
The upgrade works amazingly well. I haven't done a systematic survey but the 21mm super-elmer is gorgeous corner to corner wide open, as is the 28mm Elmarit Asph. You really need to do this conversion if you shoot legacy Leica glass to realize the potential of this camera. Messes up resale value but this time I'm not reselling.

Highly recommended for Leica shooters.

I
Friend,
Have you shot any Leica 50mm glass since the conversion was done? If so, your thoughts on the results vs. whatever Leica body you use.
How well did the peak/magnification functions work with the Leica lenses vs. rangefinder?
Obliged for your kind reply.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
To Deliberate1:

I have a few similar questions.

I have been using a Leica MM with 21/1.4ASPH, 28/2ASPH, 35/1.4ASPH, 50/1.4ASPH, 75/2ASPH, 90/28 … and have worked with each on the previous Sony A7R.

IMO and experience to date:

The only M lens that I found advantageous on the A7R compared to the MM was the 21/1.4ASPH … mostly due to not needing a separate 21mm viewfinder with the Sony A7 cameras.

Beyond the smearing and color cast issues with many M lenses, other key disadvantages of the A7R with any M lens are: shutter shock, compressed RAW, … and most importantly: lag between shooting and capture. In addition, even with a lot of practice, manual focusing using magnification or focus peaking is slow compared to the M's rangefinder … plus, focus peaking is not as reliable as the M rangefinder when shooting lenses like the 50/1.4 wide open.

My question is whether the new A7R-II has solved the lag issue the A7R displayed. All the other new advantages of the A7R-II like IBIS mean nothing to me IF it cannot match the MM Rangefinder's instant capture of those "decisive moments".

My overtly skewed opinion:

Nothing matches a rangefinder for certain types of photography … namely working with as few distractions as possible (the antithesis of the Sony complexity of operation and viewing), and for more instant capture (unless the A7R-II has completely solved this issue).

I'd say try before you buy.

- Marc
 
V

Vivek

Guest
My overtly skewed opinion:

Nothing matches a rangefinder for certain types of photography … namely working with as few distractions as possible (the antithesis of the Sony complexity of operation and viewing), and for more instant capture (unless the A7R-II has completely solved this issue).
That is what it is.
 

Deliberate1

New member
To Deliberate1:


I'd say try before you buy.

- Marc
Marc,
Thanks for sharing your deep experience with the Sony system. You raise several pratical considerations that had not crossed my mind. My chief (and really only) gripe with the M9 is the limited low light performance. I have not shot acceptably above 500-640, particularly in dynamic situations. The image stabilization and extended ISO capabilities of the Sony system solve that issue, at least on paper. I have no interest in buying into a new lens system. With the 35mm Zeiss ZM, 50mm Lux and Cron and 90mm Elmarit, I have never felt I could not get the image I wanted or could not reach by cropping. That being said the fact that the Sony accommodates a wide range of lenses via adapter (including some of my old Contax G and Nikon glass) was frosting on the cake. Perhaps this is what tempted you as well.
As I read more about the use of Leica glass on the Sony platform, the more concerns I have. Your experience with the focus system, which again seems brilliant on paper, is a major disincentive if it does not work as promised, or if, in the final analysis, the simple rangefinder is more efficient. None of that will be changed by a thinner sensor cover.
Marc, since you have the MM, I am curious to know if you have made BW conversions from the Sony. Again, my alternative to getting the a7rii is to pick up a used MM which is approaching the cost of the Sony body. Since the Leica is a BW device, I would not expect the Sony to acheive the same results. But if it is far off the mark, it would be yet another reason to implement my plan B. Plan C would be to wait for the new M (color) body. But, again, I have grown very fond of my M9. When it is good, it is very good. And it is, as you point out, the antithesis of the technical tour de force of the Sony - whose exponential complexity is only tolerable if it triggers increased enjoyment by the same factor.
Cheers,
David
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I'm open to the new A7R-II … at least to give it a try to see if it really is more instantaneous capture (sorry if I don't take someone's word for it, as the definition of "immediate" can vary : -)

Deliberate1,

The handling/speed/operations of the MM is pretty much identical to the M9 … so it'll be quite familiar to you. The difference is that the MM easily shoots to ISO-6400 and with a bit of care beyond that. BTW, my favorite lens on the MM is the M50/1.4 ASPH … which, for some reason seems a match made in heaven. I had sold my 50/1.4 ASPH to get a 50/0.95, but am now moving back to the 50/1.4 ASPH.

FYI, here's an article comparing three Leica choices for B&W:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/...chrom-typ-246-vs-m-monochrom-m9-vs-m-typ-240/

One comment that the reviewer mentions in his conclusions matches up with my experiences converting color images, especially CMOS color images, to B&W:

(The Leica MM) "still outputs amazingly sharp images with a great look. And even though a little more noise was creeping in starting around ISO 2500, the noise pattern of the M9M is a little more film-like than that of the M240 and has less image smearing."

I know that the term "Film Like" is always a lightening rod for debate, but it isn't for me. I see exactly what he is saying. For me the MM was a God sent since I always shot B&W film in analog Leica M cameras for decades … except now I can shoot in light that was difficult or darn near impossible with film.

As far as "enjoyment" … that is highly personal. I do NOT enjoy the Sony cameras. They get the job done for some work, but I have no affinity for them because they are overly complex and fiddly … where the MM simply disappears with very little hubbub between me and the subject.

However, I tend to the spontaneous and intuitive type work, mostly people and "of the moment" images … meaning a total focus on the content of an image over what it may look like with any given focal length, or color, or any array of buttons to press other than the shutter button. So a Leica M has always suited me more than other camera type. Like I said, very personal.

Try before you buy.

- Marc
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I am actively considering trading my Leica MM for a new A7rII plus glass. If anyone is interested, PM me. :)
 

SKueh

Member
just4fun,
These pictures look great. What are the f-stop settings of the last two pics, if you do not mind?
Thanks.
 

just4fun

Member
just4fun,
These pictures look great. What are the f-stop settings of the last two pics, if you do not mind?
Thanks.
Thanks! they were all at f8.

Here is another one on the pier at the same time, also f8 with basic lightroom setting & split tone Fx.

 

Mark Muse

New member
Yes I did but have just sold it to get the CV 15/4.5 vIII. I found it to be very good on centre at F4 on but the edges were really pretty soft at anything under F4 and as I have the 16-35 I found that it is better across the frame at f4. By f8 it is good across the frame and viewing 1:1 comparisons with the 16-35 showed a tad more micro-detail in the centre. It is though a fairly big and heavy lens and with the voigtlander close-focus-adapter weighed more than the FE16-35
http://markmusephotographs.com/wordpress/2015/11/16/cacapon-river-oak/

CV15 v3 at either f8 or f11 on A7r2. Performance is excellent. There appears to be a small amount of blur in leaves, but it was very windy (howling actually) and this was the cause. Shot on tripod. This lens is quite sharp on the A7r2. Depth of field is about forever by 5,6. There is no color shift on the edges. Biggest problem is vignetting from the lens itself, somewhat reduced stopping down. The lens itself is tiny. Compare this to the ZF.2 15.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Hiep (alias hiepphotog) and I compared infinity corner performance for a number of lenses on a Stock A7r2 and a Kolari modified A7r2.
In the A7r2.Kolari.mod the sensor cover glass was replaced with a thinner one that was also treated against moisture.
I am now waiting for the 3-rd generation modification that hopefully also includes anti-reflection coating additionally.


Our results are posted here Kolari Mod's Improvements: A Summary of Tests - FM Forums
starting at p.3 #3 · Kolari Mod's Improvements: A Summary of Tests
for the following M lenses.

ZEISS Distagon 2,8/15 ZM • Lens seems better in the corner on the A7r2.Kolari.mod than on the M9 - but need to verify.
LEICA TRI-ELMAR-M 1:4/16-18-21 APH. • A7r2.Kolari.mod slightly improved over Stock A7r2 for all focal lengths.
LEICA ELMARIT-M 1'2.8/21 ASPH. E 55 • Surprise. Lens seems fully usable WO on A7r2.Kolari.mod, slight residual field curvature remains though.
LEICA SUMMICRON-M 1:2/28 ASPH. E 46 • Very sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEICA ELMARIT-M 1:2.8 ASPH. E 39 • Sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
ZEISS Distagon 1,4/35 ZM • Extremely sharp at f/5.6 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEICA SUMMILUX-M 1:1.4/35 ASPH. E 46 (non-FLE) • Very sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEICA SUMMICRON-M 1:2/35 ASPH. E 39 • Very sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEICA SUMMILUX-M 1:1.4/50 ASPH. E 46 • Very sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 1:2/50 ASPH. • Best at f/5.6 to f/11 on A7r2.Kolari.mod, minimall (insignificant?) improvement over Stock A7r2.
LEICA SUMMICRON-M 1:2/50 E 39 • Very sharp at f/5.6 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzlar Summicron f = 5 cm 1:2 (Rigid Summicron) • Very sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEICA ELMAR-M 1:2.8/50 E 39 (Collapsible) • Very sharp at f/8 on A7r2.Kolari.mod. Stock A7r2 can't catch up.
LEITZ CANADA ELMAR 1:3.5/65 (Visoflex) • Very soft - had CLA done, but wonder whether the lens was assembled correctly? I doubt it! :shocked:
LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 1:2/75 ASPH. E 49 • Best at f/5.6 to f/11 on A7r2.Kolari.mod, minimal (insignificant?) improvement over Stock A7r2.

LEITZ CANADA SUMMICRON 1:2/90 • No discernable degradation of Stock A7r2 relative to Kolari modified A7r2
LEICA ELMARIT-M 1'2.8/90 E 46 • No discernable degradation of Stock A7r2 relative to Kolari modified A7r2
LEITZ WETZLAR ELMARIT 1:2.8/90 • No discernable degradation of Stock A7r2 relative to Kolari modified A7r2
LEITZ LENS MADE IN CANADA TELE-ELMARIT-M 1:2.8/90 • No discernable degradation of Stock A7r2 relative to Kolari modified A7r2
LEITZ WETZLAR TELE-ELMAR 1:4/135 • No discernable degradation of Stock A7r2 relative to Kolari modified A7r2


We also compared a number of FE lenses. Here are our conclusions Kolari Mod's Improvements: A Summary of Tests - FM Forums
starting at p.4 #17 · Kolari Mod's Improvements: A Summary of Tests
for the following FE lenses.

ZEISS SONY • Carl Zeiss Sonnar FE 2,8/35 ZA 49/0,35m/1,15ft (Zony) • Stock A7r2 extremely sharp at f/4, minimal (insignificant?) degradation for A7r2.Kolari.mod in far corner.
MITAKON ZHONGYI SPEEDMASTER 0.95/50MM M67 Version 2 • Stock A7r2 sharp at f/8. A7r2.Kolari.mod slightly better?
ZEISS SONY • Carl Zeiss Sonnar FE 1,8/55 ZA 49/0,50m/1,64ft (Zony) • Stock A7r2 sharp at f/5.6. Slight degradation for A7r2.Kolari.mod in far corner.
SONY FE 2.8/90 MACRO G OSS 62/0.28m/0.92ft • Stock A7r2 sharp at f/5.6. Minimal (insignificant?) degradation for A7r2.Kolari.mod in far corner.


We also compared these R lenses.

LEICA VARIO-ELMAR-R 1:2,8-4.5/28-90 ASPH. E67
LEICA VARIO-ELMAR-R 1:4/35-70 E60
LEICA SUMMILUX-R 1:1.4/80 E67
LEICA VARIO-ELMAR-R 1:4/80-200 E60
LEICA VARIO-ELMAR-R 1:4.2/105-280 E77
LEITZ APO-TELYT-R 3.4/180 E60
LEICA APO-TELYT-R 1:4/280

They should be usable just fine on either Stock A7r2 or Kolari modified A7r2.
 
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eleanorbrown

New member
An FYI/ I have the A7RII and a selection of 4 Leica M lenses. In particular I wanted to use my Leica 50 ASPH 1.4 on my Sony. I LOVE my M lenses and when I look over my M9 files on my previous M9 camera from a few years past the RAW's just have a "pop" that is noticeable....I have been testing my M 50 1.4 against my Sony 55 1.8 and Zeiss Otus 55 1.4 all on my Sony A7RII. The Otus wins on all testing but not by much, and it is huge and heavy on the Sony using an adaptor. I so wanted my M 50 lux lens to be superior in "look" over my Sony 55 1.8. I have been shooting different subject matter both on and off tripod. Sometimes the RAW uncompressed files are very very close in quality...sharpness, micro contrast, bokeh, etc etc. Unfortunately on some of the files, depending on angle of the shot, subject matter, etc. the M Leica files have smeared corners...not blurred, but smeared...not good at all. Bottom line, as painful as it is, I'm going to have to reconcile the fact that the cheaper Sony/Zeiss 1.8 is the lens to use. In wider apertures the sony has a tendency to have color fringing and in this respect my M Leica lens is superior. But most of the fringing can be corrected in Capture One Pro while the Leica M smearing cannot be corrected. So I'm going to have to stay with the Sony/Zeiss 55 over my beloved Leica M 50 lux ASPH lens(I no longer have my Leica camera)...eleanor (PS Leica M 50 lux ASPH file is on top)

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vjbelle

Well-known member
I was very close to 'add to basket' with the Leica 50 Asph but decided to purchase an Otus. So glad I did..... yes its heavy but its on the money corner to corner and that's what really matters. I'm in the process of selling all of the 'Mint' 'Like New' Leica M lenses. Time to move on......

Victor
 

ShooterSteve

New member
It's amazing that the Sony AF lenses out perform Leica's best because of digital sensor peculiarities. It's so hard for me to have the confidence in those lightweight plastic feeling AF lenses..... but I guess image quality is all that matters. I'm hoping that Zeiss will continue to make the best solution for the Sony but even the Loxia's have been getting mixed reviews. A big thanks to those of you who keep testing and reporting the results for us all.

Steve
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
I never understood the remark "lightweight plastic feeling".
Either a lens is built with stable and durable material or not.
Whether it's metal or plastic doesn't matter to me.

What was a surprise for me though is the degree of cover glass thickness influence on corner smearing. :shocked:
 

dchew

Well-known member
Leica announced a few new wides, including a new 35mm f/2 ASPH. I am curious if this "new generation" with "improved performance profiles" would work any better on the Sony.
 
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