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Thread: A7RII with Leica M lenses

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    A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Again here we want to see what does and does not work with the new A7rII.

    This is a future reference thread for Leica M lens owners

    List lens, adpter and what effects you are or not getting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Brief review by Joey Miller at lensrental.com mentions 21mm Summilux performing well.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Brief review by Joey Miller at lensrental.com mentions 21mm Summilux performing well.
    Has anyone reported the 21/1.4 Lux not doing well with any of the A7 series cameras?

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Has anyone reported the 21/1.4 Lux not doing well with any of the A7 series cameras?
    IIRC Vivek, both Lux 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 seemed useable with A7R as reported by some folks. I don't have any personal experience with those lenses though.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    IIRC Vivek, both Lux 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 seemed useable with A7R as reported by some folks. I don't have any personal experience with those lenses though.
    Exactly what I remember as well, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    I think the ones we really want to see are the SEM 21, 28 cron and 35 cron asph, all of which really have severe issues with previous A7 models.

    The giant RF lenses and a few others had much much more subtle issues, including the CV 12/5.6
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    The giant RF lenses and a few others had much much more subtle issues, including the CV 12/5.6
    Yeah, the giants did well.

    The 35/2.5 Summarit does well (A7/A7r/A7s) as well.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Nothing scientific yet but WATE and CV21/1.8, Cv12/5.6 v1 CV35/1.2 seem to show no perceptible colour cast toward the edges. As of smearing I really can't say at the moment and would need to test more though from initial views I am not seeing any great difference from what I sure to get n the A7II. Harder to tell against the A7s because of the great pixel difference.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    I have a 35 Summicron ASPH, 90 Summicron and a few others I will try out today and get back with info on. Oh, also the 25 Biogon.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yeah, the giants did well.

    The 35/2.5 Summarit does well (A7/A7r/A7s) as well.
    Mine should be here today. I was surprised that the Elmarit 28 actually performs better than the Cron 28 in term of smearing. Should have the Cron 28 results up. ZM 15 has severe smearing on stock cam as well (I guess combination of 2.8 and UWA). The 50 AA does have mild smearing on stock.

    One way to detect for any improvement is to see how much you need to compensate to get that corners sharp. The worst offenders need quite a large amount.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Nothing scientific yet but WATE and CV21/1.8, Cv12/5.6 v1 CV35/1.2 seem to show no perceptible colour cast toward the edges. As of smearing I really can't say at the moment and would need to test more though from initial views I am not seeing any great difference from what I sure to get n the A7II. Harder to tell against the A7s because of the great pixel difference.
    If you scale down to 12MP and see the pattern of smearing, it should be the same regardless of more detail or not.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    The old Contax G 28mm Biogon still shows smeared corners on the A7RII. Screen grab comparing the Sony FE 28mm f/2 with the Contax G 28mm f/2.8 Biogon. Both at f/8, lower right corners.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    The old Contax G 28mm Biogon still shows smeared corners on the A7RII. Screen grab comparing the Sony FE 28mm f/2 with the Contax G 28mm f/2.8 Biogon. Both at f/8, lower right corners.

    Thank you for sharing Carl. The G 28 and G 21 are among the worst . I believe they have even worse ray incident angle than the ZM C-Biogon 21/4.5.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    So far, I am finding that, wide open, the 15mm Voigtlander, 18mm, 21mm f/1.4, 28mm f/1.4, 35mm f/1.4 and 50mm APO to be at least as good with the A7R II as they are on the M240, partly because I can defeat the field curvature of some of these lenses by choosing where to put the manual focus magnification point and the built-in image stabilisation also helps.

    They main thing from my pov is that such smearing as there is is in the corners and not at the edges, and I haven't seen any colour shift so far.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    My A7RII arrived late. So I was able to shoot with the ZM 15 only.

    The following pictures are the entire test scenes with no vignette or color cast correction. I want to show you guys how much the A7RII is better than the A7R. It's even better than the A7S IMO.

    These were shot at WO.

    A7R:


    A7S:


    A7RII:


    So the next part, I'll only show the tip of the corner. I applied same vignette correction so you guys can see at 100% how much brighter the A7RII is. It's also easier to see the smearing here. The amount I applied is 3EV in C1. I also include the A7S.Mod result so you know what to expect in the corner.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news . There is no improvement whatsoever that I can see. If there is any, it would be minimal. The ZM 15 is an extreme case, nonetheless.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    The 135 Tele-Elmar f4 works great. Very sharp.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post
    The 135 Tele-Elmar f4 works great. Very sharp.
    No surprise here, TE 135/4 also works great on A7R.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    My A7RII arrived late. So I was able to shoot with the ZM 15 only.

    The following pictures are the entire test scenes with no vignette or color cast correction. I want to show you guys how much the A7RII is better than the A7R. It's even better than the A7S IMO.

    These were shot at WO.

    A7R:


    A7S:


    A7RII:


    So the next part, I'll only show the tip of the corner. I applied same vignette correction so you guys can see at 100% how much brighter the A7RII is. It's also easier to see the smearing here. The amount I applied is 3EV in C1. I also include the A7S.Mod result so you know what to expect in the corner.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news . There is no improvement whatsoever that I can see. If there is any, it would be minimal. The ZM 15 is an extreme case, nonetheless.

    I wouldn't even say it's bad news but rather unrealistic expectations on the part of a few. As such there are some great native choices that perform at a good to excellent level optically. My advice is to buy old SLR lenses (many aren't much larger than modern RF lenses) that are small (if that matters to you) and perform well optically or stick to some of the great native choices.

    This isn't unexpected though because one could see the color shifting on the rear LCD of the A7RII a couple weeks ago.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    No one seems to mention the E to M adapter type they are using.There could be differences.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    No one seems to mention the E to M adapter type they are using.There could be differences.
    I agree but it's unlikely to make a significant enough difference to make a clearly unusable lens that doesn't seem to even be on the cusp of being acceptable such.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    No one seems to mention the E to M adapter type they are using.There could be differences.
    From my experience on the A7r there was no difference with wides between the two M adapters that I have (NovoFlex and Voightlander). The only difference I had was with my 90mm which showed vignetting.... the main reason for my buying a NovoFlex.

    Victor
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    So the next part, I'll only show the tip of the corner. I applied same vignette correction so you guys can see at 100% how much brighter the A7RII is. It's also easier to see the smearing here. The amount I applied is 3EV in C1. I also include the A7S.Mod result so you know what to expect in the corner.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news . There is no improvement whatsoever that I can see. If there is any, it would be minimal. The ZM 15 is an extreme case, nonetheless.

    Thank you all for all this work. I have a good collection of M wides that I use with the old Monochome M. I am very interested in this tests for color wides and wonder what the A7S.Mod is? And if it would be possible to do the "mod" to this A7RII?

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    No one seems to mention the E to M adapter type they are using.There could be differences.
    I used the same adapter for these tests, Hawk's Helicoid V3.5 adapter. This adapter has been tested on three different bodies, one A7R and two A7S, that showed good symmetry.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by gero View Post
    Thank you all for all this work. I have a good collection of M wides that I use with the old Monochome M. I am very interested in this tests for color wides and wonder what the A7S.Mod is? And if it would be possible to do the "mod" to this A7RII?
    You're welcome . It is the Kolari thin sensor filter mod:

    http://kolarivision.com/product/sony...-lens-upgrade/

    Ilija, the owner, has successfully modded the A7II. So the A7RII might not be too far off. He just bought the A7RII from me to see if the mod will be the same as the A7II.

    Jim Kasson did several tests with the modded A7II:
    http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11094

    I have also done several tests showing the difference between stock A7S and modded A7S with the following lenses: ZM 15, Contax G 21, G 28, Cron 28, G 45, Lux 50 ASPH, Cron 50 APO, G 90. If you are interested in the results of any of these lenses, let me know.

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    Thumbs up Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    You're welcome . It is the Kolari thin sensor filter mod:

    Sony A7 Series Thin Filter Legacy Lens Upgrade - Kolari Vision

    Ilija, the owner, has successfully modded the A7II. So the A7RII might not be too far off. He just bought the A7RII from me to see if the mod will be the same as the A7II.

    Jim Kasson did several tests with the modded A7II:
    Kolari thin-stack mod on a7II vs M240 ‚€” Leica WATE at 21mm | The Last Word

    I have also done several tests showing the difference between stock A7S and modded A7S with the following lenses: ZM 15, Contax G 21, G 28, Cron 28, G 45, Lux 50 ASPH, Cron 50 APO, G 90. If you are interested in the results of any of these lenses, let me know.
    waw, this looks very promising since the color shift with the new camera seems to be very well corrected and the thin ir filter (and no aa filer) will take care of the smearing in the corners. I will be waiting for the results. Thank you again for this info.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Super Elmars 18mm and 21mm (and CV12) from Dierk:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dierkt...57656932297411
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I agree but it's unlikely to make a significant enough difference to make a clearly unusable lens that doesn't seem to even be on the cusp of being acceptable such.
    See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S22sdPzn3_s for a case where the adapter does seem to make a difference, for inexplicable reasons; the adapter is just a tube.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses



    This was shot in horrible conditions last evening. Very overcast, a slight rain and the sun had gone down. ISO 1250, 15th of a second, 35mm Leica ASPH, around F4, hand held, the bottom cropped a little but no other cropping. It works for me. I thought the 35 ASPH would not work at all but for my type of work this will be fine, most of the time. I updated my LR and this was converted with LR since I am very used to working with it.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Certainly is encouraging..... Could you please take an image on a tripod at f5.6 of anything that has depth and would show the sides of the file? If the 35 Cron could work it would maybe move me off the fence. My Zeiss 35 F2 has always worked well.... it would just be nice to see the 35 Cron tackle this hurdle. It was unusable on the A7r.

    Victor

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    HI jamato8,
    Is it a 35mm cron asph or a 35mm lux asph?
    Thanks.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SKueh View Post
    HI jamato8,
    Is it a 35mm cron asph or a 35mm lux asph?
    Thanks.
    It is the Summicron ASPH f2.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Jamato8, did you look carefully at the top left and right hand corners of the image you posted, was the lens stopped right down? I'm afraid my 35mm Summicron ASPH gives poor corner performance on the A7R2 when used for landscapes or close up work. I realise that visual interpretation of lens performance is very subjective, maybe I'm too critical.

    Bob.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post


    This was shot in horrible conditions last evening. Very overcast, a slight rain and the sun had gone down. ISO 1250, 15th of a second, 35mm Leica ASPH, around F4, hand held, the bottom cropped a little but no other cropping. It works for me. I thought the 35 ASPH would not work at all but for my type of work this will be fine, most of the time. I updated my LR and this was converted with LR since I am very used to working with it.
    I assume at f/4, the mountain in the background would be out of focus. This scene has quite a tremendous amount of depth that I doubt even my 15 can cover the whole thing at f/4. The bottom rock seems to be in focus, and that puzzles me a lot if the the top right and left corners would be in focus as well.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    I assume at f/4, the mountain in the background would be out of focus. This scene has quite a tremendous amount of depth that I doubt even my 15 can cover the whole thing at f/4. The bottom rock seems to be in focus, and that puzzles me a lot if the the top right and left corners would be in focus as well.
    I would agree. Seems like too much depth of field. Well I shot at 1/13th of a second, it was darker than what it looks here as there was heavy cloud cover and the sun had just gone down and I had an ISO of 1250. I know that when I shot it I was aware that I wouldn't have much depth of field and for this type of image, more is better than less but this is what I have. I will have to experiment some more. I was out today playing with the 25mm Biogon 2.8 and I am getting better results than I thought I would get as I have read it didn't do well with the previous 7. The 135 Tele-Elmar also looks excellent wide open.

    On the image I posted here, the trees in the background are clearly out of focus but the mountain looks decent and it is obviously much further away. Maybe I have a magic 35mm ASPH Summicron. :^)

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    So what is the best Leica M to Sony E adapter? I'm seriously thinking of a TriElmar.

    Thanks.

    Paul

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David View Post
    So what is the best Leica M to Sony E adapter? I'm seriously thinking of a TriElmar.

    Thanks.

    Paul
    Rayqual/Kindai for non-helicoid adapter. For helicoid one, I would go with Hawk's solely for its ability to lock infinity point

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    So where do the Metabones and Novoflex adapters fit into the quality lineup these days?

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Rayqual/Kindai for non-helicoid adapter. For helicoid one, I would go with Hawk's solely for its ability to lock infinity point
    The Voigtlander VM-E Close Focus Adapter for VM-Mount Lens to Sony E-Mount Camera also has the ability to lock infinity point.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post
    I would agree. Seems like too much depth of field. Well I shot at 1/13th of a second, it was darker than what it looks here as there was heavy cloud cover and the sun had just gone down and I had an ISO of 1250. I know that when I shot it I was aware that I wouldn't have much depth of field and for this type of image, more is better than less but this is what I have. I will have to experiment some more. I was out today playing with the 25mm Biogon 2.8 and I am getting better results than I thought I would get as I have read it didn't do well with the previous 7. The 135 Tele-Elmar also looks excellent wide open.

    On the image I posted here, the trees in the background are clearly out of focus but the mountain looks decent and it is obviously much further away. Maybe I have a magic 35mm ASPH Summicron. :^)
    First, nice shot

    Second, such a shot is highly misleading if used to measure the sensor issues which the Sonys have.

    To really see:

    Infinity landscape with details at equal distance foreground, edges and center. The more distant the details the easier it is to tell. Shoot the same frame WO f/4 5.6 and f8.

    There has been much confusion from the beginning because, of course, it's still possible to take very nice photos with the problem.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Has anyone tried the Voigtlšnder Ultron 21mm f1.8 yet? I like pictures taken with it on the A7R, but there’s a bit of vignetting going on. The A7R II seems to be better in regards to the vignetting (at least that’s what I’ve read in a few instances).

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberratchet View Post
    Has anyone tried the Voigtlšnder Ultron 21mm f1.8 yet? I like pictures taken with it on the A7R, but thereís a bit of vignetting going on. The A7R II seems to be better in regards to the vignetting (at least thatís what Iíve read in a few instances).
    Then expect better with respect to vignetting. You are comparing the worst of the first gen. (in term of vignetting and color cast) to the current best of the second gen.. On a digital platform, overall vignetting is a function of lens vignetting and camera induced vignetting. The A7RII reduces the second factor as much as possible.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberratchet View Post
    Has anyone tried the Voigtlšnder Ultron 21mm f1.8 yet? I like pictures taken with it on the A7R, but thereís a bit of vignetting going on. The A7R II seems to be better in regards to the vignetting (at least thatís what Iíve read in a few instances).
    This lens may be usable on the A7r2, as it's not bad on the previous models. The trouble is the edges fail as you open the aperture. With some shots this is really no problem, but others..... Then too, the lens makers go to huge trouble to get these lenses working well and it's a shame to see them muted. It was the best RF 21 for the A7x, that's for sure.

    Now, the CV 15 v3 seems genuinely very good for the Sonys. The Batis 25 must be the best in that range, but I still have not seen any really good landscape samples to judge it by.
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberratchet View Post
    Has anyone tried the Voigtlšnder Ultron 21mm f1.8 yet? I like pictures taken with it on the A7R, but thereís a bit of vignetting going on. The A7R II seems to be better in regards to the vignetting (at least thatís what Iíve read in a few instances).
    The 21/1.8 vignettes on the M9 too. It's not a Sony issue but lens design. I don't find it to be horrible and in general the lens works well on FE bodies. It's never been a landscape lens though as it's optimized for maximum resolution at close to medium distances.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com
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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberratchet View Post
    Has anyone tried the Voigtlšnder Ultron 21mm f1.8 yet? I like pictures taken with it on the A7R, but thereís a bit of vignetting going on. The A7R II seems to be better in regards to the vignetting (at least thatís what Iíve read in a few instances).
    Yes I did but have just sold it to get the CV 15/4.5 vIII. I found it to be very good on centre at F4 on but the edges were really pretty soft at anything under F4 and as I have the 16-35 I found that it is better across the frame at f4. By f8 it is good across the frame and viewing 1:1 comparisons with the 16-35 showed a tad more micro-detail in the centre. It is though a fairly big and heavy lens and with the voigtlander close-focus-adapter weighed more than the FE16-35

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Super Elmars 18mm and 21mm (and CV12) from Dierk:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dierkt...57656932297411
    Vivek Thanks for the link, but it did not work for me a few minutes ago. So what was the result of these 2 lenses?

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    The Voigtlander VM-E Close Focus Adapter for VM-Mount Lens to Sony E-Mount Camera also has the ability to lock infinity point.
    I missed this post. I wouldn't call the CV has an infinity lock since it depends on the tolerance of the particular adapter. Some CV might be a little too short and so your lens's infinity mark might overshoot. With the Hawk's, you can leave the lock on while fine-tuning for that exact infinity to match up with your lens (by loosen two small screws). This is important for lens with floating elements. It has been shown to degrade the IQ quite significantly when you dial the focus ring back a little to get the exact infinity.
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    Checking out the Bokeh King

    I just did some tests for color vignetting and corner smearing with the 35 Summicron type 4, using CV version 2 adapter (the one that covers the whole frame properly):

    Color VIGNETTING is reduced: In converted DNGs with no processing, color vignetting is off by a max of 6 units of RGB scale at F2; 3 units by f8. (6/255 = 2.4%; 3 = 1.2 – pretty good for a 35-year-old.)

    Color SMEARING is as follows:

    f2, corners smeared
    f2.8, ditto
    f4, some smearing, but IMO the lens becomes usable for street/non-tech without cropping
    f5.6, slight smearing
    f8, 'smearless'

    Kirk
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    And the 24mm 2.8 Elmarit

    No, this isn't the 1.4 or the 3.4, it's the previous aspherical version that shouldn't have been dropped from the lineup. It's neither as big as the former, nor as 'clinical' as the latter (though some may prefer that). I checked it against an early 25 Distagon, and my copy of the Elmarit is better in both center and corner resolution, until you get to the farthest corners (more about that below).

    IMO it's going to be fine on A7RII for BW landscape photography, shooting at f11. Not a Batis, but not useless. I wouldn't use large apertures, nor would I expect colors to remain constant in the corners. Color vignetting is problematic at all apertures and tends toward green, which is why I'll be using it for BW only. For color, I'll continue using the Distagon while I think about a Batis (I tend to like older lenses).

    Overall, the sweet spot for resolution with this lens is about f6.3, but f11 seems to be optimal for the A7RII sensor. There's a small loss to diffraction at f11 and a larger loss at f16 (which is probably why there's no f22 setting). But corner smearing is the problem to watch for. IMO corner sharpness is unacceptable at f5.6, but probably passable for street and non-technical work at f8. Definitely usable at f11. The corners are just as good at f16, if you need extreme DOF; but at 16 you lose center sharpness to diffraction.

    Kirk

    PS: Again, CV v2 adapter.
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 15th August 2015 at 21:27.

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Here's a trivia question:

    Which M mount is better UWA than the CV15 v3?

    This will get you in the picture:
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...77/13#13147158

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    I have been using WATE since A7r. Corners are further improved with the A7rii. I also have a the Sony FE 16-35. Sharpness is neck to neck, but I tends to like the rendering more on the WATE.

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here's a trivia question:

    Which M mount is better UWA than the CV15 v3?

    This will get you in the picture:
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...77/13#13147158

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    Re: A7RII with Leica M lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    I have been using WATE since A7r. Corners are further improved with the A7rii. I also have a the Sony FE 16-35. Sharpness is neck to neck, but I tends to like the rendering more on the WATE.
    I'm very interested in comparing the WATE to the FE 16-35. One of the key attributes is contrast, which gives the perception of sharpness. It would be great to see a comparison of those two lenses!

    Paul

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