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Thread: Here we go again...

  1. #101
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Slinger I think I noticed it first with the introduction of the a33 slt technology. Seems anything designed outside the status quo like slt's, mirrorless, ff mirrorless, newer sensor technologies, etc... Bring out the haters and the hate spreaders.
    Everything brings out the haters and hate spreaders - they're just obvious with the camera of your personal choice (you don't notice the Canon haters if you have a Sony - and vice versa). . . . . and the better the camera the bigger the hate. The downside of the internet I guess - the good side is that things that are GENUINELY wrong are discovered pretty quickly these days (like the IR sensitivity on the M8 . . and lots of other things)! Seems like there isn't really a genuine problem with the A7rii.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Could be very true Jono.... I never go on other manufacturer forums so what goes on there is oblivious to me.... they may have just as big or bigger problems on those forums. I own a Sigma DP2M but besides that it has been all Minolta/Sony hardware since the Minolta A1... I have had no need to visit any other manufacturers forum. Maybe if I had I might feel different about things Sony gear doesn't have that the others do like lossless compression RAW's for example. It is a no big deal issue to me actually... yeah if it is better and makes my images IQ look better I will love having it but I really like what I have now too and think the artifact BS is just a witch hunt item only visible it one takes the shadows 5 stops over.... I don't shoot that way.. EVER!!!!

    I hate to say this but at our photo society and at other photographic gatherings there is a mentality with some in one in particular manufacturer camp that just rubs me raw. They have a superiority complex that is fragile at best and actually makes me want to puke. These are the guys who held on to film till their company near went under and those that stated for years no one need more than 12mp till they got 36mp then they raised the high MP banner and did the Lord of the Flies dance under it ever since. Another reason I don't visit other manufacturers sites.....

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    Re: Here we go again...

    I just read a post on another site from a guy worried about getting a a7rII because he does star trail photography stacking 40+ timed exposures to create them and was worried about the hot pixel issue. Ok I can appreciate someone liking to do that sort of photography but why would anyone want a high resolution high pixel count camera when their images are essentially digitally stacked computer generated images of 3 plus hours worth of exposures? I just don't get it...... Imagine 42mp x 40 plus images to create a single std 300 dpi image

    I would say a a7rII may not be his best tool for this......

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Hi Jim, since you seem to be perturbed by some of the posts with long exposures, i will post this link for you : http://eplumer.blogspot.nl/2013/08/c...-and-lens.html

    Those who are really serious about consumer level (for astro that is) cams do put in a lot of effort to make them work for their purpose. That is just one example of a creative and talented user.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Vivek, I am not perturbed at all and appreciate any and all art forms but to me using a high resolution high pixel count camera to create a single image out of 40+ stacked images is like using a .905 caliber rifle to shoot a housefly.

    Stacking 40+ images is basically a computer generated image imo and not a photograph and surely doesn't require 1680mp to create it to print at 300dpi

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Everything brings out the haters and hate spreaders - they're just obvious with the camera of your personal choice (you don't notice the Canon haters if you have a Sony - and vice versa). . . . . and the better the camera the bigger the hate. The downside of the internet I guess - the good side is that things that are GENUINELY wrong are discovered pretty quickly these days (like the IR sensitivity on the M8 . . and lots of other things)! Seems like there isn't really a genuine problem with the A7rii.
    The real hate debates, like those between Canon and Nikon users in the "old" days, seem to have become much rarer these days. The Sony criticism seems to be more about annoyance and disappointment. Annoyance because many claim that the Sony A7 series represents disruptive technology, which it clearly doesn't, and disappointment because many of those who had hoped for a smaller, lighter camera that would satisfy their particular needs didn't find it to be that camera.

    The points of criticism, like battery size, lens selection and ergonomics, are valid enough. Some can live with those factors, others cannot. What does puzzle me though, is that while battery life, lens selection and ergonomics were hotly debated factors and important subjects of discussion for most camera reviewers just a few years ago, they are now dismissed as unimportant by many users. Maybe needs have changed or many converts simply didn't have those needs, but for some, like me, they make most discussions around the A7RII rather uninteresting, since the camera doesn't satisfy my needs anyway.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Jorgen, Your second paragraph basically reiterates that it (Sony A7 series) IS disruptive technology.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Jorgen, I am not sure if your 3 points relate to the first A7 bodies or if you are referring to the current II's. But if it is from the first series 2 out of three of your points have been addressed and changed. Only the battery size is the same which to me is a non-issue esp being as I run a grip but even if I didn't I would just run 16g cards and change card and battery at the same time. 350 shots is a bunch of shots imo.

    I never owned the previous a7 bodies but the first thing I liked about the a7rII and a vertical grip was its feel and layout of controls. But I am coming from a99's and a77's with vertical grips. Lens selection? Well yes in E mount over 200mm is lacking I'll give you that but in every other mount with adapters the sky is the limit with MF or even some with AF from other brands. Does it do BIF with a 600mm as well as my a77II? Nope! But I did not expect it to but my a77II can't do things my a7rII can either.

    What I notice is those migrating from other brands are setting unrealistic expectations without actual Sony specs to support their expectation then when they get a a7 series camera are annoyed that it does not meet the unrealistic expectations they fabricated in their minds before buying. For example your three issues.... They should of known these going in and they should be expected, not flamed over as it was a given going in. Like my earlier red car/ white car example. If one know's something before one buy's and elect's to buy anyway complaining about it later just looks foolish. Like I wanted a red car but bought a white one because they had no red cars the a month later I want to complain it's white..really???

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Here's the thing, Jim. Sony supplies the sensor that Nikon uses to amazing effect in the D810.

    Why should the A7RII files be inferior, in any respect, to those produced by the Nikon D810? It's Sony's sensor! The files should be better! But they aren't, and no one says they are. Why?

    I appreciate all the cool stuff the A7RII adds, but why do we have to accept a backwards step in image quality? It could be otherwise! But we battle people like you, constantly, who make excuses for Sony's lack of concern with THE IMAGE ITSELF. Which, at the end of the day, matters as much or more than anything.

    Looking forward to you eventually posting a picture of your 'Sony' tattoo--full sleeve, neck, or something smaller?

    spence

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Well looking at today's shoot . I just busted 2 myths that don't look to be a issue at all. 12 bit versus 14 bit and steady shot ON/OFF on a tripod. Silent shutter goes into 12 bits but I am seeing nothing in the raws between 12 bit and 14bit( silent shutter on and off). ISO 6400 is just flat out amazing even at default. The difference between having IBIS on or OFF on a Tripod also has no effect. Going to take some time to get through all of this but I nailed everything really well today. Batis 25 and 85 are just flat out kick *** in corners and centrally they are amazing even wide open. Corners 2.8 the magic starts. The 35mm 1.4 pretty much the same but F2 it starts to get really going centrally and nailing it in the corners at F4, yes ladies and gentleman this is a twofer lens one for look stop it down and its a screaming landscape lens. Ill get this all up in a few days. With all the crap trust me you all bought well. ROTFLMAO


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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jorgen, Your second paragraph basically reiterates that it (Sony A7 series) IS disruptive technology.
    Disruptive technology is a technology that helps create a new market and value network, and eventually disrupts an existing market and value network.

    - Most of the technology used in the A7 series have been known and used for several years, also in DSLR cameras. Take IBIS. Olympus, Pentax and Minolta all used it in their DSLR cameras. In spite of this, Minolta packed up and sold out, Olympus stopped making DSLR cameras and Pentax is still a very minor player. Canon and Nikon do not offer IBIS, but are still the dominant players in the DSLR market as well as in the general pro camera market.

    - Real disruptive technology, like digital photography, turned the camera market upside down in less than ten years after it was available to the general public and sent some of the most prominent suppliers of photographic equipment off the cliff.

    - While the change to digital photography introduced massive advantages, from an economical, practical and quality aspect, the A7 really only introduces smaller size, somewhat lower weight and the ability to shoot video while looking through the viewfinder. But there are also distinct disadvantages, like shorter battery life (inherent) and strange ergonomics or limited lens selection.

    - The only really new aspects of mirrorless cameras is that one can change lenses on a camera with an electronic viewfinder and again: the size. Still, an A7R II is larger and heavier than a 40 years old OM-1 (and the battery life of the OM-1, I counted in years, not in frames ). Cameras with electronic viewfinders have been available more or less since the birth of digital cameras, and some of them were very advanced, although equipped with much smaller sensor than the A7 offers.

    - Neither the A7 nor any other mirrorless cameras offer any quality or economic advantages for shooting stills compared to DSLR cameras, except maybe the cost of a slightly larger camera bag for the latter. For those shooting with long telephoto lenses, the 2-300g difference in body weight is easily outweighed by the superior grip and general ergonomics of a DSLR. The exception to this is represented by cameras like the E-M1 and the GH4, particularly the latter, which offers great ergonomics, small but long telephoto lenses due to the smaller sensor and a reasonable battery life, but then the sensor is smaller, which introduces other disadvantages like lower pixel count and less than ideal high ISO performance.

    There is no ideal do-it-all camera, and there never was. It's all a question of priorities.

    And criticism doesn't equal hate
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Jorgen, I am not sure if your 3 points relate to the first A7 bodies or if you are referring to the current II's. But if it is from the first series 2 out of three of your points have been addressed and changed. Only the battery size is the same which to me is a non-issue esp being as I run a grip but even if I didn't I would just run 16g cards and change card and battery at the same time. 350 shots is a bunch of shots imo.

    I never owned the previous a7 bodies but the first thing I liked about the a7rII and a vertical grip was its feel and layout of controls. But I am coming from a99's and a77's with vertical grips. Lens selection? Well yes in E mount over 200mm is lacking I'll give you that but in every other mount with adapters the sky is the limit with MF or even some with AF from other brands. Does it do BIF with a 600mm as well as my a77II? Nope! But I did not expect it to but my a77II can't do things my a7rII can either.

    What I notice is those migrating from other brands are setting unrealistic expectations without actual Sony specs to support their expectation then when they get a a7 series camera are annoyed that it does not meet the unrealistic expectations they fabricated in their minds before buying. For example your three issues.... They should of known these going in and they should be expected, not flamed over as it was a given going in. Like my earlier red car/ white car example. If one know's something before one buy's and elect's to buy anyway complaining about it later just looks foolish. Like I wanted a red car but bought a white one because they had no red cars the a month later I want to complain it's white..really???
    People do expect too much, and with Sony's marketing of the A7 series, that is not surprising.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Jorgen, I am not sure if your 3 points relate to the first A7 bodies or if you are referring to the current II's. But if it is from the first series 2 out of three of your points have been addressed and changed. Only the battery size is the same which to me is a non-issue esp being as I run a grip but even if I didn't I would just run 16g cards and change card and battery at the same time. 350 shots is a bunch of shots imo.

    I never owned the previous a7 bodies but the first thing I liked about the a7rII and a vertical grip was its feel and layout of controls. But I am coming from a99's and a77's with vertical grips. Lens selection? Well yes in E mount over 200mm is lacking I'll give you that but in every other mount with adapters the sky is the limit with MF or even some with AF from other brands. Does it do BIF with a 600mm as well as my a77II? Nope! But I did not expect it to but my a77II can't do things my a7rII can either.

    What I notice is those migrating from other brands are setting unrealistic expectations without actual Sony specs to support their expectation then when they get a a7 series camera are annoyed that it does not meet the unrealistic expectations they fabricated in their minds before buying. For example your three issues.... They should of known these going in and they should be expected, not flamed over as it was a given going in. Like my earlier red car/ white car example. If one know's something before one buy's and elect's to buy anyway complaining about it later just looks foolish. Like I wanted a red car but bought a white one because they had no red cars the a month later I want to complain it's white..really???
    Jim DE, you shoot sports or is the new camera an all around camera for you? Thanks for answering.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikalWGrass View Post
    Jim DE, you shoot sports or is the new camera an all around camera for you? Thanks for answering.
    I buy and use cameras like golf clubs. I buy for their strengths and use them that way and use other bodies for their strengths and don't use them for their weaknesses. My job is product photography which I use a body which works best for studio work. The a7rIi was bought as a upgrade to my nex 7 system as a hike in scenic camera for gallery prints and pleasure. I also own a a77, a77II, a99, nex 5, nex7, a DP2m, a Hassie stellar, a a33, and even pull out the old Minolta7d at times and nearly 40 A and E mount lenses as well as some legacy glass. These are my current digital tools each one has strengths and weaknesses and are used for their strengths. I don't do sports but do do BIF for pleasure and the a77II gets the call for those. I have not owned only one camera body since the early 60's.

    Spence my only ink is a Tarpon, fly, and fly rod because tarpon on a fly own's my soul... No Sony tatoo's but I do have SPS card if that makes a difference to you.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I buy and use cameras like golf clubs.
    I really haven't seen it that way until you mentioned it, but I can imagine my old D2Xs tied to a stick performing well as a driver
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    People do expect too much, and with Sony's marketing of the A7 series, that is not surprising.
    I must not get out much because I don't think I have ever seen a TV ad or magazine ad for Sony cameras other than that of the body release highlights. You could be right and they may somewhere blow smoke up everyone's arses that I have not been exposed to but I sure haven't seen it. What I see is mass hysteria on some forums that hype up the realities to a level they no longer are even close to the realities of the advertised specs. Then when these frenzied buyers find out what they read on forums are not what the product is then comes the disappointment. I don't see that as a Sony cause issue but a hysterical unrealistic expectation not fulfilled.

    I guess I still look at this stuff from a manufacturing management viewpoint. Maybe we just see and define things differently than those not from this environment. I look at specs and design intent and if a product meets these then it is good. If it doesn't it is bad. I have yet to see a issue that does not meet or exceed specs and design intent. What I see is issues outside a normal usage criterial or a should of or could of list of items for a wish list. Has anyone found one item defined or advertised by Sony about this product that it is unable to do? I haven't so I got what I knew I was going to get going in. Is it the do all end all to all photography? Nope but they never said it was going to be either. No camera is..

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I buy and use cameras like golf clubs. I buy for their strengths and use them that way and use other bodies for their strengths and don't use them for their weaknesses. My job is product photography which I use a body which works best for studio work. The a7rIi was bought as a upgrade to my nex 7 system as a hike in scenic camera for gallery prints and pleasure. I also own a a77, a77II, a99, nex 5, nex7, a DP2m, a Hassie stellar, a a33, and even pull out the old Minolta7d at times and nearly 40 A and E mount lenses as well as some legacy glass. These are my current digital tools each one has strengths and weaknesses and are used for their strengths. I don't do sports but do do BIF for pleasure and the a77II gets the call for those. I have not owned only one camera body since the early 60's.

    Spence my only ink is a Tarpon, fly, and fly rod because tarpon on a fly own's my soul... No Sony tatoo's but I do have SPS card if that makes a difference to you.
    Thank you. My a900 is getting long in the tooth, and pretty much all I shoot is sports, though I want to branch out a bit. I have an M6 and a few lenses to mount on it, but it is pretty useless for sports such as water polo and swimming. I used it for more than 10 years on a long term documentary project that I was working on. I may have to buy something else if I branch out, but not until the shekels come in, if you know what I mean.

    Thank you again for your answer.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I really haven't seen it that way until you mentioned it, but I can imagine my old D2Xs tied to a stick performing well as a driver

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikalWGrass View Post
    Thank you. My a900 is getting long in the tooth, and pretty much all I shoot is sports, though I want to branch out a bit. I have an M6 and a few lenses to mount on it, but it is pretty useless for sports such as water polo and swimming. I used it for more than 10 years on a long term documentary project that I was working on. I may have to buy something else if I branch out, but not until the shekels come in, if you know what I mean.

    Thank you again for your answer.
    A900 was and is a excellent camera. With zeiss glass it will still stand toe to toe with the best out there in many cases.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jorgen, Your second paragraph basically reiterates that it (Sony A7 series) IS disruptive technology.
    What is disruptive about it ?

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well looking at today's shoot . I just busted 2 myths that don't look to be a issue at all. 12 bit versus 14 bit and steady shot ON/OFF on a tripod. Silent shutter goes into 12 bits but I am seeing nothing in the raws between 12 bit and 14bit( silent shutter on and off). ISO 6400 is just flat out amazing even at default. The difference between having IBIS on or OFF on a Tripod also has no effect. Going to take some time to get through all of this but I nailed everything really well today. Batis 25 and 85 are just flat out kick *** in corners and centrally they are amazing even wide open. Corners 2.8 the magic starts. The 35mm 1.4 pretty much the same but F2 it starts to get really going centrally and nailing it in the corners at F4, yes ladies and gentleman this is a twofer lens one for look stop it down and its a screaming landscape lens. Ill get this all up in a few days. With all the crap trust me you all bought well. ROTFLMAO


    VC 15mm is just a flat out sweetheart. I gave all my glass a workout
    Well Guy - I am looking forward to your shots @ 4K Aussie + 2K for a Cambo mini tech set up + 4K for 3-4 E lenses it is still less than an M240-P body from Leica - There is no doubting that the Sony is a very real value proposition for people who may have tired of MFD sized stuff to lug around all the time and get 40 megapixels worth of resolution. For a Nikon owner there is no great incentive to change - especially if they are shooting teles- same for Canon owners...my only issue is the current lack of a great range of E glass which stops me from selling out of other DSLR cam bodies - but the 40 megapixel - Cambo combo is a sweet sweet alternative to some of the really large heavy tech gear I have to muscle around...the fact that I can mount and use the sweet spot of a bunch of MF glass I own as well as a bunch of copal shuttered lenses is a very very attractive proposition.

    Sony is delivering a kick up many camera manufacturers bums- doesn't matter what people say - the r11 represents a real break through value proposition for a lot of people - even my Leica dealer wishes he had a Sony dealership license as well.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What is disruptive about it ?
    The Nikon D70 was disruptive. They sold > 1 million cameras (though with a defect called BGLOD). The A7 cams have made a big dent on many cams/brands.

    As you say, your own Leica dealer is left lamenting.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    the only disadvantage i see to using the Cambo with the AR is the bulk of the body and grip plus the recessed sensor will prevent wide angles from being fitted. However, use an adapter and the Canon TS lenses! 17 and 24mm are excellent.
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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    A900 was and is a excellent camera. With zeiss glass it will still stand toe to toe with the best out there in many cases.
    JimDE - I agree, and that is why I don't want to get rid of it. I run the main body from the extra grip because the circuitry in the main body pretty much crashed about 18 months ago. I have never had an issue with the DR (whatever that is), or the color out of the box. However, as my kids get bigger and stronger, they swim and play water polo harder and more furiously, and my daughter runs faster and jumps higher when doing her gymnastics. I have never been the most skilled photographer but I find it very tiring to have to worry about the reliability of the camera, and to have to use every ounce of my brain capacity to figure out how to get quickly moving shots that otherwise would be a piece of cake for another camera. I have the ZA 135/1.8 and the Sony 70-200/2.8G and use those as my main lenses for sports. If it wasn't for those lenses I would have junked the camera a long time ago.

    I would be interested in the newer Sony line but I just don't think they are up to par for fast moving action that cannot be tracked (like auto racing) yet.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Guy was able to capture some hummingbirds with his A7RII

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The Nikon D70 was disruptive. They sold > 1 million cameras (though with a defect called BGLOD). The A7 cams have made a big dent on many cams/brands.

    As you say, your own Leica dealer is left lamenting.
    My Leica dealer is selling as much gear as Leica can ship ....but a lot of gear heads like to muck around with the latest gadget that comes out - why not - it is harmless fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    the only disadvantage i see to using the Cambo with the AR is the bulk of the body and grip plus the recessed sensor will prevent wide angles from being fitted. However, use an adapter and the Canon TS lenses! 17 and 24mm are excellent.
    Excellent point.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The Nikon D70 was disruptive. They sold > 1 million cameras (though with a defect called BGLOD). The A7 cams have made a big dent on many cams/brands.

    As you say, your own Leica dealer is left lamenting.
    The D70, and the Canon 300D, were disruptive not so much because of their impressive sales figures, but because they made their film based predecessor irrelevant overnight thanks to the digital technology. This is is actually an interesting lesson. The only major positive difference between the D70 and the F/N80 was the digital sensor. The viewfinder was much worse, battery life shorter and image quality not really superior to film.

    The different A7 models on the other hand, although an interesting, but not unexpected, development in their own way, didn't really do anything but gather a string of known digital technologies in a body that is much smaller than the competition. While that has made them very popular among many photographers, they are far too late to the market to create the stir that the first digital models did. There are simply too many well functioning alternatives available.

    If the A7 had been launched before 2005, which from a technological point of view would have been possible, I'm quite sure that most exchangeable lens cameras would have been mirrorless today. Now, it will take much longer time.

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    Re: Here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    My Leica dealer is selling as much gear as Leica can ship ....but a lot of gear heads like to muck around with the latest gadget that comes out - why not - it is harmless fun

    - - - Updated - - -



    Excellent point.
    Those are my people. Leica nuts or ex leoca nuts.

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