Here we go again...

[Zlatko Batistich]

Well here is a review sans sugar coating by a guy who does love (and own) the camera but can still see clearly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/izumiflowers/20325321840/

Basically shows why the chowder heads are talking so much, informed or not. Hands down the best review I have yet read. Utterly ruthless, but he's keeping the camera LOL And he explains it.

Well, that is an informed* review as far as I can tell — unlike the one where the reviewer hadn't even touched the camera (Canon Rumors). I appreciate a sans sugar coating review that asks the right questions and considers different uses that photographers have. Some reviewers are frankly uninformed about how gear should work under pressure.

On that note, photographers should be aware that some so-called reviews are in fact stealth advertising. From time to time I'm disappointed to find that hardware (& software) reviews are written by people who have some relationship with the manufacturer or got a freebie as part of a product launch and aren't disclosing that in their review. I doubt that someone is going to review things as objectively if they didn't pay retail with their own money.

*Edited to add: on second thought, it's a bit odd that the reviewer's photos all seem to be made with that A7, not the A7RII. And many of the photos have a strange haze over them.

 

[Jim DE]

I have a long term love and hate relationship with Sony. I've had the NEX5, NEX5N, NEX6, NEX7, TWO A7, A5100, A6000 and the A7S...all of them always came very close but always left some key feature keeping it from REALLY making it. And to be honest I really think that is Sony's game. Why put it all on the table when you can slowly phase evolution and milk your customers until you've "finally got it"? I mean they could have implemented the A6000's AF on their FF cameras but that wouldn't have been profitable. They KNOW they could have implemented their A7S high iso capabilities and their video features on their A7 series but why if you could charge double. Sony has a strategy of always making the user choose and between features and it REALLY makes me angry because one way or the other you will have to leave out some important features....
Now, after keeping the customers waiting for years they FINALLY come up with a camera that FINALLY may gather all the features and bring peace and love to the consumer's hearts
BUT this camera just happens to cost us$3200...which is ok, because with all the incredible hype that Sony has been creating this MUST be the holy grail of cameras...after all it's us$1000 more expensive than it's main Canon and Nikon competitors....after all, look at all the blogs, footage, reviews, etc. Come on, guys...you're really telling me that i's NOT natural to be frustrated to pay us$3200 to find out the camera does not live up to the hype?? I think it's absolutely natural. In the US it's pretty easy to rent the newest gear and find out which is the right one for you, but rental is NOT a world wide culture and for many people in different countries either you buy the camera based on reviews, forums, blogs, tests, etc or you simply don't buy it. And let me tell you it's pretty darn frustrating to pay that kind of money to find out that a camera simply won't deliver what their competitors have been delivering for YEARS. Not that it matters for most, but since I've moved to Brazil this situation is even more aggravated as there are ridiculous import taxes here....The A7RII will probably cost a minimum of US$4500 here! Seriously, even when compared to the top DSLR today us$3200 is a heck of LOT of money! For that kind of money, you SHOULD expect the best and Sony SHOULD deliver it...anything else it's just plain disrespect for their clients by Sony.

P.S - I'm a HUGE Sony mirrorless fan and I really REALLY WANT Sony to succeed...but just show a little respect for your customers.

Rawfa, I would not pay $4500 usd for this camera ..... but that is just me: I choked at the $2785 I paid as I still have difficulty justifying spending the going prices for digital bodies. That import tax is ridiculous..... I don't even pay sales taxes in the state I live in. Personally, I'd take a vacation and have one shipped to my hotel in a much less expensive environment.

 

[Jim DE]

As far as the reviews and the chatter goes about this new body I am going to just ignore them from now on till I personally find something that negatively effects my images or workflow with this a7rII. So far it is still checking every box and I am kicking myself for not getting into the FF E mount earlier.

I see a topic now about DR being reduced if one shoots 70 30sec exposures in a row at 3200iso ...... I am sure the astro guys would be effected by this and of validity to them but as of right now after 50+ years of shooting I have not once shot with those parameters .... not even once (nor do I expect to). But I do see that it could be a show stopper for the milky way photogs and would knock this body out of consideration IF none of the other cameras out there don't do the exact or similar temperature rising issue with the same parameters. Where is the contradicting data that brand X does not show the same tendencies?

Guess someone next will be investigating if the camera is dropped from 2' it will survive but at 20'+ she is toast..... valid issue for sky diving photogs I mean if the limits are pushed beyond normal design intent operation or usage then quite possibly issues will surface but are these valid points to mark a camera down on or are they just a witch hunt? If I was a Sony engineer and read some of the extremes that are being complained about I would just shake my head and say "Yeah, SO?"

 

[dandrewk]

Yeah, ya know I set the intervalometer to shoot 100 high speed continuos shots. I then gently tossed the camera in the air. The damn piece of %$^& failed to find focus on nearly 25% of those shots. NOT a pro camera!

 

[Jim DE]

yeah, ya know i set the intervalometer to shoot 100 high speed continuos shots. I then gently tossed the camera in the air. The damn piece of %$^& failed to find focus on nearly 25% of those shots. Not a pro camera!

:d

:rotfl:

Funny ... what is a "Pro Camera" anyway? You know one of my prints that has yielded the most attention and accolades (along with revenue) was shot with the first generation "loser's" camera the NEX5 with a CG45mm on it....... Now I earn a living with SLT's but I never had a issue with the "loser" camera's and their IQ for scenics. IMO the NEX line was a gateway technology to the current lines of mirrorless and got everyone thinking out of the SLR box mentality.

I think too many are wrapped up in nomenclature and pay no attention to the 12" behind the camera and how that area and the hardware can work together creating results. Heck that body is junk and cannot be a useful tool if it loses DR after a half an hour of continuous shooting in the summertime... wth?


Ok I am done with this ..... it is interesting every launch seems to follow this same predictable path. Some of my best cameras score above requirement but not exceptional.... guess I am a sucker for for equipment that is about par for the course Now all I need is a 55mm 1.8, a 90mm macro, and a 70-200mm and I will be one happy camper with a empty wallet .......

 

[doug]

... the kolari mod, which has brought my own A7 off the shelf...

What has your experience with this mod been? Any IQ change with adapted reflex lenses?

 

[uhoh7]

What has your experience with this mod been? Any IQ change with adapted reflex lenses?

Any lens made for film is improved, but the difference may be slight at 50mm. This 400USD mod allows the A7 to shoot the ZM18, SEM21, 28 cron, and even the ZM 35/2 biogon quite well. Even the 35/2.5 skopar was judged acceptable by many who saw my tests.

AF seems unaffected. There is no extra dust, despite the absence post mod of the shaker. I did have to learn to edit all over again, to get the look I really like, but now there are times when I honestly have to look to see if the M9 or A7 took the shot

As to reflex glass: here is a case in point, the nFD 24/2, a legendary Canon wide, considered the best of all the pre-EF mount wide angles by some. The A7r and the A7 hated it. Totally unusable.

Here it is on the A7.mod:


Bridge in to Blue by unoh7, nFD 24/2

Here is the 28 cron:


Red Curves by unoh7, on Flickr

and while the nFD 21/2.8 was decent on the A7, it has markedly improved:


DSC02453 by unoh7, on Flickr

I like the A7 again The one thing which still punches my BP, is the shutter noise. The camera cannot be used at discreet events in any mode, without drawing looks. I still cannot believe an 1800USD camera had a shutter which sounds like a 19th century industrial sewing machine. At least r2 has a silent mode, though it does rob the RAWs of detail in the shadows. Or so the chowderheads cry noisily. And demonstrate.

Even my long glass seems cleaner, but my really detailed testing was with the RF wides.

Finally there is the 25/2 Batis, but the footprint is pretty big. An A7 with that lens is as big and obvious as a D810 with a wide nikon prime. Weight not so bad at 335 grams.

The long and the short of it is Sony has left a huge hole open for a future FF EVIL with a compact footprint to appear. Why does the batis need to be so big? The coverglass will not handle short register well. That was only a choice, and another maker may see that the lenses do not have to be so big....any of them, if the sensor is optimized for a short register.

Of course rare is the camera which could not be better, and I very much enjoy what the Sony shooters have been doing, whatever their personal relationship with the equipment may be

What is really ironic is that while Sony totally ignores Leica, recent tests with the A7r2 show the WATE as the best UWA option available, with performance actually superior to the M246. The WATE beats the new CV 15 v3, which really surprised me:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1378777/12#13146713

Think about that:
A7r2 3k
Used WATE 3.8k
Batis 1300
FE 35/2.8 650
FE 55/1.8 650
then some good long glass.

For this kind of money one can put together a very good M kit, today, which is going to hold value better. Now many are not interested, I understand, but that's what makes a 700USD A7 and Kolari mod very attractive. 1100 USD and you are not far off the M240, with a body that loves, really loves, SLR glass, which is alot cheaper too.

 

[Vivek]

I did have to learn to edit all over again, to get the look I really like,

Well worth the effort.

Your first samples were very dull. Left me wondering why you were excited.

 

[scho]

As to reflex glass: here is a case in point, the nFD 24/2, a legendary Canon wide, considered the best of all the pre-EF mount wide angles by some. The A7r and the A7 hated it. Totally unusable.

Here it is on the A7.mod:


Bridge in to Blue by unoh7, nFD 24/2
.

The Canon FDn 24/2 is also quite nice on the A7RII. Clean edges and corners with no smearing and reasonably sharp.

 

[Pradeep]

A bigger problem for me, at least in my experience is quite the opposite from this thread.

Often, a new product is praised to the sky by many 'pros' in their blogs/reviews, at least the ones who have an 'in' and are able to get pre-production samples. The very fact that they can get these to 'review' suggests a relationship with the manufacturer which makes everything they say somewhat suspect.

Back on topic

I am loving the A7RII so far. Definitely an improvement over its predecessor. Whether it is worth the extra $1000 over the original all depends on the individual.

Talking about 'bang for the buck'? Phase One anybody?

Everything in life is relative.

 

[Chris Giles]

It's the hype.

95% of the people believed it and now they're pissed.

The BSI appears more of a gimmick as the noise level is the same as my 5Dsr even though it has more MP and 'ancient' nm process. The Canon AF compatibility that was so heavily touted ignored the longer lenses and is still slow as fudge. The thing overheats in 4k unless you have 27mph NW winds, one foot off the ground and a bucket of ice handy. Silent shutter mode creates banding at completely random times. Plus it's massively over priced.

That's bad enough to warrant negativity I guess. And this can become infectious.

Then comparing it to other brands with better, tougher intuitive interfaces and menus, decent flash systems, native lenses and people feel hoodwinked en mass.

You could say it's the consumers fault for being consumers. I've never seen so much hype over a camera and I'm totally over getting one now. (Although I am eyeing a 7s for the ISO performance - but even then there's no point shooting high iso if the images are all washed out anyway).

I do think though that what Sony HAS done is to show that certain levels or technology are now available and this drives other manufacturers forward.

 

[dandrewk]

It's the hype.

95% of the people believed it and now they're pissed.

The BSI appears more of a gimmick as the noise level is the same as my 5Dsr even though it has more MP and 'ancient' nm process. The Canon AF compatibility that was so heavily touted ignored the longer lenses and is still slow as fudge. The thing overheats in 4k unless you have 27mph NW winds, one foot off the ground and a bucket of ice handy. Silent shutter mode creates banding at completely random times. Plus it's massively over priced.

That's bad enough to warrant negativity I guess. And this can become infectious.

Then comparing it to other brands with better, tougher intuitive interfaces and menus, decent flash systems, native lenses and people feel hoodwinked en mass.

You could say it's the consumers fault for being consumers. I've never seen so much hype over a camera and I'm totally over getting one now. (Although I am eyeing a 7s for the ISO performance - but even then there's no point shooting high iso if the images are all washed out anyway).

I do think though that what Sony HAS done is to show that certain levels or technology are now available and this drives other manufacturers forward.

^^^

This is an example of what I was referring when I posted this:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/55667-here-we-go-again.html#post654828

 

[Vivek]

^^^

This is an example of what I was referring when I posted this:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/55667-here-we-go-again.html#post654828

Chris is a Pro who uses Canon. He is a "target" market for this cam as Sony people said. You may not like it but Sony may pay attention.

 

[jonoslack]

I like the A7 again

It seems to do really well - I would say though that the problems seen with these lenses are much more obvious when shooting at (or near) infinity (when the rear element is closest to the sensor).

What is really ironic is that while Sony totally ignores Leica, recent tests with the A7r2 show the WATE as the best UWA option available, with performance actually superior to the M246. The WATE beats the new CV 15 v3, which really surprised me:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1378777/12#13146713

Think about that:
A7r2 3k
Used WATE 3.8k
Batis 1300
FE 35/2.8 650
FE 55/1.8 650
then some good long glass.

For this kind of money one can put together a very good M kit, today, which is going to hold value better. Now many are not interested, I understand, but that's what makes a 700USD A7 and Kolari mod very attractive. 1100 USD and you are not far off the M240, with a body that loves, really loves, SLR glass, which is alot cheaper too.

Well, I think Guy had it in his original rant - Sony ain't going to put any effort into making M lenses work well - why should they? Of course there are a few oddballs who want a FF mirrorless camera for shooting M lenses (I'm a proud member of this peculiar group) - but it's really unlikely that anyone is going to do this - Leica not only have a specially designed sensor - but firmware adjustments for colour cast and vignetting for all the lenses - who would (or should) bother to go to all this effort? What's become clear is that it certainly isn't going to happen by luck! The Kolari mod solves one side of the equation (the cover glass) but it still doesn't solve the issue with firmware adjustments.

Of course some M lenses work really well (The WATE for instance also works really well on the A7 and A7ii). In the final analysis, you still do best with M lenses on an M camera, and that's unlikely to change in the near future.

But this doesn't detract from the A7rii which is obviously a fantastic new camera - class leading and game changing. . . . . . .

 

[dandrewk]

Chris is a Pro who uses Canon. He is a "target" market for this cam as Sony people said. You may not like it but Sony may pay attention.

Well, as I said, alternate viewpoints are always welcome. But when someone begins a post stating that 95% of the people believed the "hype" are "pissed", it makes the rest of the post not worth reading. I haven't read too many angry posts from A7rII OWNERS. In fact, it seems pretty solidly favorable - surprisingly so, given the price of the camera.

I agree it's a great thing for Sony to pay attention to user experiences. IMHO, the A7rII proves Sony HAS paid attention.

 

[Chris Giles]

Well, as I said, alternate viewpoints are always welcome. But when someone begins a post stating that 95% of the people believed the "hype" are "pissed", it makes the rest of the post not worth reading. I haven't read too many angry posts from A7rII OWNERS. In fact, it seems pretty solidly favorable - surprisingly so, given the price of the camera.

I agree it's a great thing for Sony to pay attention to user experiences. IMHO, the A7rII proves Sony HAS paid attention.

Please don't take a post too seriously from me where stats are concerned. Any man and his dog will know that figure is a generalization. It's not like I'm privy to a secret set of data or anything.

You could argue that out of all the photographers in the world only 5% actually know what they're doing or buying. Some would even say 0.01% - You could argue that on the surface, it only seems that 5% of the camera users in the world actually know, understand or value what dynamic range is.

I didn't believe the hype, fact I wrote so much in my 5DSr review two weeks before the release of the A7rii. I'm talking about the Stan Lee true believers that got pulled in. Of which there were many. Admittedly they do tend to be on DPR for the most part. I am seeing a lot of turned opinions of facebook though, people I've known and worked with for years who took a chance on it to see what all the fuss was about.

One even made an unboxing video (which was awesome) but now they aren't using it in mixed lighting due to silent shutter banding.

 

[jonoslack]

The BSI appears more of a gimmick as the noise level is the same as my 5Dsr even though it has more MP and 'ancient' nm process. The Canon AF compatibility that was so heavily touted ignored the longer lenses and is still slow as fudge. The thing overheats in 4k unless you have 27mph NW winds, one foot off the ground and a bucket of ice handy. Silent shutter mode creates banding at completely random times. Plus it's massively over priced.

That's bad enough to warrant negativity I guess. And this can become infectious.

Then comparing it to other brands with better, tougher intuitive interfaces and menus, decent flash systems, native lenses and people feel hoodwinked en mass.

Hmmm
Well, with respect to the Canon AF compatibility - I guess this is the other side of the issue with M lenses - Why should Sony make an effort to sell other manufacturer's lenses? - if these things work it's a bonus, but there's no reason to criticise Sony for it.

Interfaces and menus are definitely subjective - you like them or you don't, there's hardly a right or wrong (although granted, if you're a Canon user you're likely to prefer Canon interfaces). Decent flash systems - okay . . . but with cameras doing great 6400 ISO flash systems aren't quite the imperative that they used to be (at least, they aren't for lots of users, and I don't see that Sony have pretended to anything they don't deliver).

Banding in silent mode and overheating I can't comment on, not having tried the camera, but it sounds like the sort of thing which is prone to being drastically exaggerated by those with vested interests in other systems. Certainly, I didn't find it an issue with the A7ii.

The camera isn't for me either (but for different reasons) - but I don't feel hoodwinked, and I can see that for many many users it's a fantastic solution, and the native lens situation is improving all the time.

 

[Viramati]

but now they aren't using it in mixed lighting due to silent shutter banding.

Are you talking about colour banding with fluorescents as this is a problem I have had with all the Sony A7's up till now, Yes it was worse with full electronic shutter (A7S) but it was still there with the A7 and A7s with electronic first shutter or even full mechanical shutter at shutter speeds above 1/90sec. Haven't tested yet if the A7rII is any better or worse. Anyway I believe this is problem in general with electronic shutters and as I said the A7s has it
My Leica's don't suffer from this problem

 

[Vivek]

Hmmm
Well, with respect to the Canon AF compatibility - I guess this is the other side of the issue with M lenses - Why should Sony make an effort to sell other manufacturer's lenses? - if these things work it's a bonus, but there's no reason to criticise Sony for it.

They gave an adapter (Leica M or Canon or Sony, etc) of choice for free in Australia with an A7/7r/7s.

Leica wides don't work- Canon teles are iffy- Sony A mount lenses-which adapter?

They should not make a camera for others' lenses, I agree.

 

[Chris Giles]

Are you talking about colour banding with fluorescents as this is a problem I have had with all the Sony A7's up till now, Yes it was worse with full electronic shutter (A7S) but it was still there with the A7 and A7s with electronic first shutter or even full mechanical shutter at shutter speeds above 1/90sec. Haven't tested yet if the A7rII is any better or worse. Anyway I believe this is problem in general with electronic shutters and as I said the A7s has it
My Leica's don't suffer from this problem

No, it was at a tipi wedding in ambient light. There was some overhead fairy lights but they were very dull.