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Here we go again...

Chris Giles

New member
Personally my biggest niggle through all the publicity was the hidden 'buts'.

It has better less read noise - but the noise isn't actually that great anyway.
It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result.
It shoots 4k - but overheats

This doesn't apply to everyone but it applied to me. Not to say I dislike the camera, as that would be a lie. The 7rii didn't choose it's parents and as such shouldn't be beaten down for their life choices.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result

Im still trying to figure out why that is. It just does not make any sense logically to me. It has to do with the shutter itself.


It shoots 4k - but overheats

This one makes sense to me at some point it needs to shut off and cool down
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Personally my biggest niggle through all the publicity was the hidden 'buts'.

It has better less read noise - but the noise isn't actually that great anyway.
It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result.
It shoots 4k - but overheats

This doesn't apply to everyone but it applied to me. Not to say I dislike the camera, as that would be a lie. The 7rii didn't choose it's parents and as such shouldn't be beaten down for their life choices.
Chris as you may have noticed my attitude on certain things being negative its really only been on the reportage of this release. Its freaking horrible and Im pretty pissed off about this and the blow our industry has taken over it. Its turned into who can blog faster and report more stupid crap than the next guy.

Some of these things are workarounds and just niggles I agree. Some like the 12 bit issue needs a serious talk with the engineers. I really like this unit and really not finding much fault as the part number but more coming from base camp
 
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Vivek

Guest
12 bit output happens when in

1. Silent shutter mode

2. Speed priority continous shooting

This is the case with the A7s and it is continued on the A7rII. It could stem from the lack of processing capacity.
 

Jim DE

New member
Is their any camera made by anyone that has a silent shutter operation that has a better than 12 bit output?

I ask this because I just never have researched this at all as it is a technology my photography does not require but I am curious if anyone has silent shutter and is able to do it better.
 

Annna T

Active member
It has true silent shooting - but you sacrifice dynamic range as a result

Im still trying to figure out why that is. It just does not make any sense logically to me. It has to do with the shutter itself.
From what I have read, under some specific circonstancies, the camera switch from recording in 14 bits to 12 bits, which diminishes DR. those circonstancies includes low exposure noise reduction, silent shooting and high speed continuous drive. The reason behind it is that the body needs to manage and store the data faster.

I don't know how much DR is lost due to that, nor nor how that will affect real life shooting.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Is their any camera made by anyone that has a silent shutter operation that has a better than 12 bit output?

I ask this because I just never have researched this at all as it is a technology my photography does not require but I am curious if anyone has silent shutter and is able to do it better.
The Sony RX100 iv perhaps is the candidate for that. I am hoping that tech permeates to the rumored A6000 successor.

Both (silent shutter and continuos speed priority shooting)features are very useful to me.
 

Jim DE

New member
Thanks Vivek and I can appreciate its usefulness in some applications. I was just seeing if any other camera offered silent shutter and a better bit performance or even equal to it.

Point is though useful and everyone likes improvements but essentially what I am understanding is we are complaining about bit performance with silent shutter when if you need silent shutter Sony is the only and best game in town. I would think those that need silent shutter would be glad to have it even at a reduced bit output.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jim great to have no question. I guess what the real question is why dropping to 12 bit. High speed shooting I get the buffering and speed issue and high speed bracketing. Silent shutter to me does not seem to need faster anything. It's just supposed to be silent. Myself a unused feature since the new shutter sound is pretty quiet but it does have its place for some. Technically it just does not make sense.

Be nice if Sony directly answered some of these questions as I think it would be understood more why. I think Sony coming from video over many years is still using some of that tech here on the still side of the house.
 

Jim DE

New member
Guy your last point hits the nail on the head as to how Sony approaches still photography. We see it in mirrorless technology, EVF's, high speed frame rates, etc....

No major corporation does engineering designs without a reason or known effect. I would assume the same thing of intentionally dropping bit output with certain features. I am guessing it solved a issue they were having and most likely figured it would be unnoticed or unknown to the vast majority of their customers.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Be nice if Sony directly answered some of these questions as I think it would be understood more why.
The recent "interactive session" missed that opportunity. :(

My rudimentary undestanding is that the electronic shutter for a CMOS sensor involves a lot of computing power.

BTW, the silent shutter mode can not be used in conjunction with the speed priority mode.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy your last point hits the nail on the head as to how Sony approaches still photography. We see it in mirrorless technology, EVF's, high speed frame rates, etc....

No major corporation does engineering designs without a reason or known effect. I would assume the same thing of intentionally dropping bit output with certain features. I am guessing it solved a issue they were having and most likely figured it would be unnoticed or unknown to the vast majority of their customers.
Almost every issue brought to light is in firmware updates even if something needs processing power it could come down to lossy compression files or something of that nature.
 

spence

New member
Dropping to 12-bit mode for silent shutter makes sense, because they're bound by sensor readout speed. They only have so long to electronically 'stop' the exposure; if it takes too long you start to see rolling shutter, etc, IIRC. And at 42MP, readout speed is a big challenge.

To me, it's dropping to 12-bit in _bulb_ mode, even with LENR off, that makes no sense whatsoever.

As for the drop with continuous, we should at least be offered the option to shoot in 13-bit, at reduced fps as compared to 12-bit.

Sony's insistence on taking away control from the user is what frustrates me. This applies to their insistence on using lossy RAW as well. All we're asking for is options.
 

Slingers

Active member
I thinks it's normal to have gripes or find genuine faults with a new camera but there is a group of people that spread issues, these are the ones I shake my head at. I don't understand why they do it but it's mostly happened with the NEX-7, the A7R, and now this camera for Sony. Interestingly they have do have surprising links to the manufacturer. They seem to look at what is a potential fault and since they have covered off more noise with a bsi I wonder if they are looking into the others bsi problems of pixel bleeding and increased diffraction.
 
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Vivek

Guest
I don't understand why they do it but it's mostly happened with the NEX-7, the A7R, and now this camera for Sony. Interestingly they have do have surprising links to the manufacturer.
Would you blame them or Sony for making NEX-7 and A7r?

Don't forget that better sensors came into NEX after the NEX-7 (criticism) (I paid 1200 Euros for the NEX-7) and the shutter issue has become non existent in the A7X cams (I paid 2200 Euros for the A7r).
 

Slingers

Active member
Issues like the shutter shake are genuine problems and are very useful to know and to have a workaround. As well as the unforgiving NEX-7 sensor which overheats in 1080 faster than the A7RII in 4K.

I think it's great the next cameras have removed these problems and hopefully the current issues like reducing to 12bit during bulb mode are fixed going forward.
 

Jim DE

New member
Slinger I think I noticed it first with the introduction of the a33 slt technology. Seems anything designed outside the status quo like slt's, mirrorless, ff mirrorless, newer sensor technologies, etc... Bring out the haters and the hate spreaders. Unfortunately Sony has and does design outside the typical SLR technologies which brings this sort of actions to come after them. We saw the same sort of thinking back at the beginning of digital and those with death grips on their film gear. In short the hater and hater spreaders are a result of resistance to change and the idea that we have always done this that way and nothing new is going to do it better or if man was meant to fly ......
 
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