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Thread: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

  1. #51
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    As they are still in short supply in the UK and because I am off on holiday soon I'll leave purchasing the A7RII until September or October.

    I'm in two minds about selling my A7S. The A7R will definitely go. Been a great camera but I am convinced about the ergonomics and IBIS alone to want to go up to the A7RII. But the A7S? Knowing that I have a camera that will really do high-iso, e.g. 10,000-20,000 is very powerful. I am perhaps reacting to having been tortured for several years with digital cameras that couldn't even get above iso800 (specifically my Leica M8) so I'm concerned about losing good high-iso capability.

    Of course, if any of you can convince me the A7RII really will do good very high-iso then I'll consider selling the A7S as well. I don't like having cameras sitting on a shelf doing nothing.

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    So far I like it up to 6400. I have not run any real tests though YET
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The camera is very responsive and the AF is so much better and accurate. I have a bunch to talk about here. I have tried every setting in AF and I got a ton of keepers.
    Guy:
    I'm very glad to hear the AF is behaving. Have you been able to test the equivalent of a runway shoot? I'm guessing that's a very important requirement for your cameras (and a pretty critical AF assignment).
    Regards,
    John
    Sony fanboy, shamelessly shilling for "the man" since 2010.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Tim, I'd appreciate if you could elaborate more on this comment, specifically as re color gradations. IME, I have found that more pixels generally translates into smoother color and tonality, regardless of system. I am wondering if it is due to:

    1) pixels being so small they are getting diffraction skew to their color or;

    2) it has something to do with lens resolutions not being up to the pixel pitch itself, and thus color data is getting "blurred?"

    On the second point, I am not specifically singling out Sony glass as I have serious doubts *most* (if not all) current lenses will have issues past the 40MP point, including my best and latest Nikon G lenses.
    Hi Jack,

    I'd find it very hard to know what the cause is, or even to quantify the issue beyond that it's what I see and that it is noticeable at a level *just* above angels on pinheads.

    I eagerly await the more serious reviewers' opinions on it but I think it is a combination of...

    * slightly less good noise performance when shot 'at best' (so D810 @ISO64 and A7RII @100)
    * something to do with the compression
    * some slight feeling that there's a pre-cooking of RAW going on

    This morning I tried a sanity check of browsing through many, many D810 files and all my MkII files and overall the impression was sustained. There's something incredibly silky and real about a really great D810 file shot on really nice glass, and I have yet to see quite the same level of 'touch me I'm real' quality from the Sony.

    I've tried C1 (default sharpening is too soft for me, though the files do look initially really nice until you sharpen them) as well as LR and lots of processing variations and maybe I just am not au fait with the files in post to the right degree yet but I can't quite get to where I'd like to be.

    But let's assume (I hope wrongly) that I'm at the peak of what I can do to maximise file quality and that this is 'as good as it gets' - then I'd still keep the camera because on a 36" print, though I DO think I would just see the difference (orange peel in OOF transitions, slightly 'gritty' shadows) I'd have to look incredibly closely and I don't think that anyone who has ever bought a print from me would notice the difference.

    I'm easily willing to trade that for IBIS and form factor and other benefits but as I said elsewhere, I'll keep the D810 for some work, because I'm a baby and I like a comfort blanket!
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  5. #55
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post


    * some slight feeling that there's a pre-cooking of RAW going on

    This morning I tried a sanity check of browsing through many, many D810 files and all my MkII files and overall the impression was sustained. There's something incredibly silky and real about a really great D810 file shot on really nice glass, and I have yet to see quite the same level of 'touch me I'm real' quality from the Sony.
    Interesting. Could certainly be compression and relatively poor unpacking -- which hopefully could resolve itself with software updates? Your comment on "silky" D810 files is spot on -- I do love the files that cam produces, so much so I offed both my D800 and D800E as soon as I got the D810 precisely because of that. I am happy to await Nikon's offering in this sensor class as I am 100% comfortable with the size, VF, features and ergos of the full-size Nikon bodies. Thanks for your feedback!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    This is what has me jacked up . Is the higher ISO. I think the files are smoother because of the smaller pixels. Thats my theory and in MF that was the case also going to a smaller micron back. Same here

    Shot this handheld with the Batis 85mm in CROP mode so what a 128mm

    ISO 1000 1/500 at F3.5. Now my sharpening has gone up slightly in C1 over the A7r by 25 points . So this is 325/5/6 No clarity which i usually throw one but here is the key I could NEVER get this ISO like this on the A7r. There simply is no noise here. I have done nothing to this file at all except sharpening.



    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Here I gave it Guys special treatment
    Clarity 12
    Noise 54 standard is 50 on these three settings
    Details 64
    Color 58






    Howard i shot this one with AFC continuous low and expanded flexible AF point
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Don't forget this is crop mode which is a 17mg raw file
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    This kind of answer the question of the day with 2 outstanding lenses to go with it and the AF on them is lightning fast.

    Batis 25



    Batis 85



    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    See to me these look very smooth and do not look digital. Back to my sneaky comment the other day=filmlike
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Howard I would first start at APC with a low continuous shooting mode. You can try two settings that I think would work good with a single animal on the move. You can go focus area and use Wide which you have to get the AF point on the animal than just keep tracking them across the frame. In wide the downfall is if it don't start on the animal, so you may have to release and try again. The other setting is the expanded flexible spot which you can zero on the animals face and it will track them across the frame as well. Trick is nailing the animal on the start and keeping that half press on all the time . I have more faith in the low continuous than I do in the high mode. Native lenses obviously will be best. I think you where renting the 70-300 which sounds like a good lens for this .
    Thanks, Guy. There are several choices for AF focus modes that may make sense. Wide, Zone, Expand Flexible Spot and Lock on AF Expand Flexible Spot. With Wide, do you do a half press on the main subject, and then let it follow the subject? Is this tracking AF, or do you have to use the Lock On AF Expand Flexible Spot?
    I am renting the Sony A 70-400 Zoom with the adapter.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Wide is tough because it needs to nail the object. If its not a busy scene no problem but like anything is can get confused but once it gets it , very nice.

    I would try a few things with like cars coming at a angle and see what picks up easier for you. When directly at me doing runway I use the expanded flexible spot

    Zone works nice as well but i think it stays in that zone only
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    See to me these look very smooth and do not look digital. Back to my sneaky comment the other day=filmlike
    These not only look very smooth and not digital, these are simply stellar! I am slowly getting overwhelmed!

    Looks to me as simply the best you can get out of a system these days!

    Peter

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    These not only look very smooth and not digital, these are simply stellar! I am slowly getting overwhelmed!

    Looks to me as simply the best you can get out of a system these days!

    Peter
    Peter and i know people will get mad at me but they look really good in C1, not sure what the heck is going on but C1 seems to be nailing this cam. Not saying LR does not and I have not even looked but from my seat its a flat out wow factor on the files.

    Case in point that Babbit wall with brilliant daylight should look digital and its not
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Here it don't get much stronger of a image than here but yet it still is smooth. Batis 25mm smoking the skies up. LOL

    Love this freaking lens already

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter and i know people will get mad at me but they look really good in C1, not sure what the heck is going on but C1 seems to be nailing this cam. Not saying LR does not and I have not even looked but from my seat its a flat out wow factor on the files.

    Case in point that Babbit wall with brilliant daylight should look digital and its not
    Guy, this is the same with a lot of other camera RAWs as well, C1 simply outperforms LR in all my - maybe limited - trials. This is very off topic, but for example the Olympus EM1 with its tiny 43 sensor produces stunning result up till ISO 8000 wit C1, whereas the results start already getting noisy and sucking from ISO 1600 in LR. One of the main reasons I prefer C1 today again (after loosing Aperture ).

    And same is even more true for all my files from Nikon Df and D800E - look just so much better processed in C1 compared to LR.

    So actually I do not wonder why this is also true for the A7rII, but good to know this really is the case and makes me even more confident joining the Sony FE route in future!

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    I certainly do not shy away from being a fan of C1 been saying it for years. I started using it back when I had the Canon 1ds and paid 500 for the software. thats a lot of years and it is a kluge fudge for some folks , totally get that and folks like LR for cataloging and printing and such. I just want a Raw converter and use other things for the extra stuff. I view LR as more a generalist software where I think C1 is more specialized. But thats me and Im not always right. Im wrong once in a blue moon. ROTFLMAO

    Im kidding of course
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I certainly do not shy away from being a fan of C1 been saying it for years. I started using it back when I had the Canon 1ds and paid 500 for the software. thats a lot of years and it is a kluge fudge for some folks , totally get that and folks like LR for cataloging and printing and such. I just want a Raw converter and use other things for the extra stuff. I view LR as more a generalist software where I think C1 is more specialized. But thats me and Im not always right. Im wrong once in a blue moon. ROTFLMAO

    Im kidding of course
    I used to run Aperture, LR and C1 in parallel. As Aperture is gone I stick with C1 and LR, using LR mainly for cataloging and C1 for editing. Obviously this seems to be the way we have to do it today

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    LR has that cataloging advantage and I understand why folks use it. No question its a complete package and folks like that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    This maybe of interest, especially the APO-R 280/4 shutter shock measurements on A7R and A7RII by Jim Kasson.

    http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3885234
    Somewhere I read this:

    4. Newly Designed 500k Cycle Shutter
    • One of the key complaints about the SonyA7R was the overly loud and violent shutter slap that caused vibration issues when using telephoto lenses.
    • The A7RII solves this with a new highly durable reduced-vibration shutter that causes 50% less vibration than the A7R
    • Electronic first curtain
    • Rated at a whopping 500,000 cycles (most professional cameras last between 200,000 to 300,000 cycles)
    • Silent Shooting Mode
    Bart ...
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LR has that cataloging advantage and I understand why folks use it. No question its a complete package and folks like that

    Guy how is the Capture One software they made for cataloging ... do you use it? CRS or I would name the software

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    While we could easily turn this thread into a debate of the Nikon D810 vs. the Sony a7RM2, or Capture One vs. Lightroom, or online reviewers and their motives to find fault with a new camera, or whether Tom Brady deflates his balls, I'd like to return to the original question posed by Tim Ashley, namely:

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Plenty of us have got the camera now and plenty of those cameras have been put through their paces. None of us is infallible but we're generally a fairly experienced crowd and we we mostly have had lots of experience of other cameras and systems. So what's the consensus so far, if there is one?
    Some have weighed in and I'd like to hear from more, whether they be happy campers, fanboys, naysayers or undecideds.

    Joe
    _________________________________
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    One thing that clearly bothers me is what seems like thermal noise (shown by atleast one user on fredmiranda) even at base ISO. I did expect better.

    Availability, for once, is not holding me back as every shop here has them in stock.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    If I ever sound like thermal noise please tell me. I don't want to be that guy either good or bad comments.

    I'm actually being careful what I say. I can tell you all this I'm very happy give me another sir
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LR has that cataloging advantage and I understand why folks use it. No question its a complete package and folks like that
    I am going to put you on hide, if you have it here. lol Those lenses look great. What I am finding is that the A7RII, with all the frustrations, is the most undigital camera I have used, besides past film cameras :^). I don't get that cut and paste look when you have a limited depth of field with a an object in sharp focus. That ruins it for me but the A7RII isn't doing that.

    I can't seem to find the Batis lenses you are using anywhere, the 25 and 85. But I am also liking the Lietz lenses as well but for some of my work, like visual anthropology I really have come to rely on the rapid auto focus for capturing what I need to. A 25 and 85 would be very nice as would a 135 or longer.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    One thing that clearly bothers me is what seems like thermal noise (shown by atleast one user on fredmiranda) even at base ISO. I did expect better.

    Availability, for once, is not holding me back as every shop here has them in stock.
    If that's what is holding you back, run down to the camera shop and buy one. Jim Kasson, who actually owns an A7RII and IMO is a very trustworthy tester in such matters, says thermal self-heating is not an issue. Of course, Jim did not first put the camera in a barbeque, so who knows what happens if you do that.
    hcubell
    www.howardcubell.com
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Thanks, Guy. There are several choices for AF focus modes that may make sense. Wide, Zone, Expand Flexible Spot and Lock on AF Expand Flexible Spot. With Wide, do you do a half press on the main subject, and then let it follow the subject? Is this tracking AF, or do you have to use the Lock On AF Expand Flexible Spot?
    I am renting the Sony A 70-400 Zoom with the adapter.
    I just shot with the 70-400 G2 and the '3' adapter on my A7r2 this morning.

    The fancy tracking modes are not available.

    AF-C only works with the low speed continuous or single shot advance rate.

    Overall, I was satisfied with the AF performance as well as the image quality.

    Lock on was speedy enough in the morning sun and the A7r2 was able to maintain sharp focus in all the situations I would have expected it to.

    I did have to keep the focus point on my subject but did not find that difficult. The focus point itself can be placed almost anywhere in the frame.

    I brought my 70-200G FE with me as a backup but never once touched it.

    Yesterday, I shot with the 90 FE/Macro and had access to all the super focus modes and I came away convinced that it will serve dual use as a portrait lens and macro lens.

    -Bill
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Guy how is the Capture One software they made for cataloging ... do you use it? CRS or I would name the software
    No it's been **** in the past. Although I think Bob uses it today and maybe he can chime in. I hear it's much improved
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Guy I am sure you are following those "artifact" issues being discussed with a7rII's and pushing the darks up 4-5 stops under very specific light/subject conditions and the hot pixel/noise issues also being discussed on long exposures.

    Now I am no brainiac and as stated before some of these issues and discussions have so little importances to the effects of my needs and wants they tend to sound like the teacher in a Peanuts cartoon. But, I put this out to you and the rest here...... Lets forget just how over the top the exposure settings have to be for these objections occur but being as there is documented differences on how obvious or not these issues are with various PP softwares could these possibly be PP software issues and not the camera's?

    If you read the posts of some they seem to want to rattle the tree's to possibly force Sony to lower the MSRP more than determining if the problem is a real issue to final output or one that needs Sony to correct or who the source of the problem is? Makes one wonder their true objectives.... and whether they have a agenda.

    I have not seen a hot pixel issue personally yet with long exposures so I don't have much to say about it but the artifact issue when pushing the blacks up 4-5 stops all I can say is really???? In what/who's world is that a real issue as I have always felt that as a photographer we have a obligation to at least get our exposures close. If one wants HDR shoot the shot that way with multiple exposures and stack them.

    Mark my words the so called professional reviewer's are listening and reading these absurd complaints (whose parameters to observe them are so ridiculous no good photographer would ever intentionally encumber himself with them in a proper shot he took) and depending on their hidden agenda's will dissect these issues to the nth degree and malign this body like they are issues that every photo you shoot with this body you just can't avoid them. One can see the writing on the wall already and with the pre volume hype of letting other manufacturers glass function as well or better on this body than their own has brought forward over critical evaluations from people who are based in the other camps who worry this just might happen one day.

    Sad to see this happen yet again.....good ole agenda driven misinformation and the sky is falling; mentalities.
    Yup, heard the story with the A7R BUT I've loved it since Nov. '13. I now have the A7S and A7 II, and they are both great. The A7R II will join the ranks as probably one of the best, if not the best, camera currently available and for some time into the future. Mine is on pre-order and will probably arrive next week? I hope.

    bwa

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post
    I am going to put you on hide, if you have it here. lol Those lenses look great. What I am finding is that the A7RII, with all the frustrations, is the most undigital camera I have used, besides past film cameras :^). I don't get that cut and paste look when you have a limited depth of field with a an object in sharp focus. That ruins it for me but the A7RII isn't doing that.

    I can't seem to find the Batis lenses you are using anywhere, the 25 and 85. But I am also liking the Lietz lenses as well but for some of my work, like visual anthropology I really have come to rely on the rapid auto focus for capturing what I need to. A 25 and 85 would be very nice as would a 135 or longer.
    Just remember who said film like first.

    The Batis lenses are tough to find
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II) YES for me

    Mine arrived 2 hours ago, and I snapped a picture of my wife using the Nikon 85mm f1.8 D lens on manual focus. This was at 1/125th, f1.8, ISO100. Not completely sharp because Steadyshot was not set to 85mm (camera shipped at 5mm), and the Nikon lens is not sharp wide open. But I got the effect I wanted, especially considering the wife is approaching her 69th birthday-- used a bit of pp for this. I'm keeping it.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  32. #82
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    As they are still in short supply in the UK and because I am off on holiday soon I'll leave purchasing the A7RII until September or October.

    I'm in two minds about selling my A7S. The A7R will definitely go. Been a great camera but I am convinced about the ergonomics and IBIS alone to want to go up to the A7RII. But the A7S? Knowing that I have a camera that will really do high-iso, e.g. 10,000-20,000 is very powerful. I am perhaps reacting to having been tortured for several years with digital cameras that couldn't even get above iso800 (specifically my Leica M8) so I'm concerned about losing good high-iso capability.

    Of course, if any of you can convince me the A7RII really will do good very high-iso then I'll consider selling the A7S as well. I don't like having cameras sitting on a shelf doing nothing.

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB
    I own the A7R, A7S and A7 II. Both the A7R and A7S are full spectrum modded for astrophotography and IR; keeping both. Even if the A7S wasn't modded I'd be keeping it. It is simply the greatest low light camera in existence! If the A7R II is really up to all the current hype, the A7 II will be the one going out the door.

    bwa

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just remember who said film like first.

    The Batis lenses are tough to find
    Analogue like. :^) One thing that has ruined some images I have seen of digital is the sharp cut off from in focus subject to out of focus if the depth of field is shallow. It looks like someone cut the in focus image out and pasted it onto the photo. I think this has to do with films make-up using silver for most of it. There is a graduation and change due to the nature of what is going on, due to the splattering or diffusion of light as it goes through the emulsion. With digital, much of the time, there is a little but it hits the sensor and while some is detracted, it tends to cut right through and the line of demarcation is obvious. I think with the Sony with the sensor they are using, especially the current one in the A7RII, you are getting back to the very subtle graduation of change, which to my eye, is more natural and what I would call analogue like. IMO.

  34. #84
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I just shot with the 70-400 G2 and the '3' adapter on my A7r2 this morning.

    The fancy tracking modes are not available.

    AF-C only works with the low speed continuous or single shot advance rate.

    Overall, I was satisfied with the AF performance as well as the image quality.

    Lock on was speedy enough in the morning sun and the A7r2 was able to maintain sharp focus in all the situations I would have expected it to.

    I did have to keep the focus point on my subject but did not find that difficult. The focus point itself can be placed almost anywhere in the frame.

    I brought my 70-200G FE with me as a backup but never once touched it.

    Yesterday, I shot with the 90 FE/Macro and had access to all the super focus modes and I came away convinced that it will serve dual use as a portrait lens and macro lens.

    -Bill
    Thanks. Focus tracking doesn't work at all with the 70-400?

  35. #85
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Thanks. Focus tracking doesn't work at all with the 70-400?
    In my usage, focus tracking is not available in the focus menu with the 70-400G2 and '3' adapter.

    Continuous AF is available and seems to work well in the low speed frame per second mode, which is about 2 fps.

    I would welcome input from anyone that knows more. The multitude of focus options are poorly described, much like Nikon.

    Still, the 70-400G2 impressed me as a fine lens with more than capable AF for anything short of erratic BIF or teeny, tiny objects hidden in front of a forest of background clutter.

    This is no sports camera but, unlike my A7, it can shoot rapidly moving subjects.

    For me, the speedy Samsung NX1 still has a role to play in my armamentarium. Eventually, Sony will release a fast shooter with a big buffer.

    -Bill

    I love big buffers and I cannot lie.

  36. #86
    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I love big buffers and I cannot lie.
    That's funny.

    Nice Sir Mix-A-Lot reference.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Since someone asked about undecideds--I'm in that camp at the moment. My A7RII was delivered by B&H today, but it's sitting unopened on the table.

    I'm currently shooting an RX100 and some older Canon gear. Looking at pretty much a complete system change--Sony A7RII, or Nikon D810 or D750.

    There are a few A7RII issues I'm concerned about at the moment. The lossy RAW I can live with, but an option for lossless would be nice. The problems with heat when shooting video are not a deal-breaker for me either.

    The extremely noisy low ISO long exposures concern me more. I find myself shooting a lot at night lately, and I'd like to be able to do even more, and not have a lot of work to do in post-proc to clean things up. Even with my humble little RX100, shadows can be raised significantly without unseemly noise. Expectations for this are of course through the roof, thanks to the insane pushability of the exmor sensors, especially as implemented by Nikon. Once you've gone isoless, and also seen the kind of single-shot HDR that's possible when properly used, it's hard to accept a step backwards in that department.

    Anyway, this is a big purchase for me, so I want to get it right. Nikon full frame seems like the safer choice, but the A7RII is probably the more compelling overall package (IBIS, eye tracking, 4k video, easy MF). And if it turns out that it can AF my Canon 400L F5.6 with any of the adapters, I'll probably choose it.

    For now, I'm going to wait a week or two to see how these early issues with the A7RII shake out. I've waited this long, I can wait a while longer.

  38. #88
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Can anyone explain why Sony always compress the RAW file? For speed? I have no problem with compressed RAW, but want to understand the reason behind implementing it.

  39. #89
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by bwana4swahili View Post
    I own the A7R, A7S and A7 II. Both the A7R and A7S are full spectrum modded for astrophotography and IR; keeping both. Even if the A7S wasn't modded I'd be keeping it. It is simply the greatest low light camera in existence! If the A7R II is really up to all the current hype, the A7 II will be the one going out the door.

    bwa
    That's my plan too. Keep the A7s, convert my A7r to IR and swap out the A7II for an A7RII. There is something special about having the A7s as an infinite ISO camera that I've yet to see matched by anything, including my Nikon Df which is also an ISO monster but 'different'.

    Has anyone tried the longer Sony lenses or 3rd party lenses for high speed AF or use of Sony AF modes? I'm off on Safari in September and wondering whether to take my Nikons (which are a known qty) or Sony A7RII and either Sony A 70-400mm, A 500mm or Tamron Sony 150-600.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  40. #90
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    One area where I have not been totally happy with my A7II(no R) has been skin tones which to me sometimes look a little flat and slightly muddy, not as alive as I see it from some other brands (for example the df or Leica) (in both LR and C1). Do you guys feel the a7IIr is improved in this regard? Am I alone with this feeling?

  41. #91
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    One area where I have not been totally happy with my A7II(no R) has been skin tones which to me sometimes look a little flat and slightly muddy, not as alive as I see it from some other brands (for example the df or Leica) (in both LR and C1). Do you guys feel the a7IIr is improved in this regard? Am I alone with this feeling?
    I find that when I look at the picture on the camera's LCD (EVF seems better). However, in lightroom, I actually feel that skin tone has improved especially under indoor lighting, but I feel that Sony tends to a bit high on the saturation and contrast. So, backing it off a bit (-10) in lightroom helps.

  42. #92
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    Can anyone explain why Sony always compress the RAW file? For speed? I have no problem with compressed RAW, but want to understand the reason behind implementing it.
    I believe it may have something to do with video, since they have a long history in that area.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  43. #93
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    That's my plan too. Keep the A7s, convert my A7r to IR and swap out the A7II for an A7RII. There is something special about having the A7s as an infinite ISO camera that I've yet to see matched by anything, including my Nikon Df which is also an ISO monster but 'different'.

    Has anyone tried the longer Sony lenses or 3rd party lenses for high speed AF or use of Sony AF modes? I'm off on Safari in September and wondering whether to take my Nikons (which are a known qty) or Sony A7RII and either Sony A 70-400mm, A 500mm or Tamron Sony 150-600.
    I think the Tammy works from one reading I saw. That's with the LAEA 3 . The 4 works in cluster mode. I have a 3 for sale as well. You bought my 4
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  44. #94
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    Can anyone explain why Sony always compress the RAW file? For speed? I have no problem with compressed RAW, but want to understand the reason behind implementing it.
    Yat, I have not seen an explanation from Sony. It's a mystery (to me). From a recent interview published on DPR:

    One of our main criticisms of the a7-series has been raw compression. Is the raw processing of the a7R II the same as previous cameras?

    Kimio Maki, Senior General Manager of the Digital Imaging Business Group, Sony Corporation: Right now it is the same, yes. We’re still working on it. In the future we may change the software but that’s not completed yet. We have consumers who require 14-bit etc., and we’re considering [how to deal with it].
    In today's world, a $3,200 camera that competes with Nikon, Canon, Leica and others should have a lossless compressed RAW option, IMHO.

    Joe
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  45. #95
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Joe it's a given... If it has a Sony badge on it this is the RAW format it has. If it is unacceptable to a user don't buy a Sony and buy from a manufacturer that has the files one feels they need. I just don't find givens to be a defect or issue. It is what it is and has been for a while.

    I don't see Sony trying to compete with canikon in slr's .... Their focus is mirrorless. The user has to determine if they want the characteristics of mirrorless more than RAW files like Canikon. It is a apples and oranges issue. You buy what ever tools one feels they need or want but complaining about a issue that was a given going in is foolishness. That is like buying a Ford and complaining it doesn't have a Chevy badging on it.

    I am looking at the various complaints popping up on the net on various websites and they were either known issues going in or user errors or misinformation. It just never ceases to amaze me. I truly think that some of the brainiacs on one forum in particular seem to have a race to find something or anything to note as a issue about a new product just to build themselves up no matter how ridiculous the parameters one needs to do to get to the point to see a issue at a pixel level. Really? To me they look like fools...

    Now is the RAW file better one way or the other is another issue and yes a untouched captured RAW file would be better for many and for others a non issue but it is not a a7rII specific issue and should be discussed as separate issues imo.

  46. #96
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Jim, there is some new information there? Is there anything mirrorless that prevents anyone to offer lossless RAW? Leica M went CMOS (liveview, mirrorless) recently, for example. It is quite possible. The ball is in Sony's court.

  47. #97
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    They are supposedly working on it but I never ran into a issue .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    That's my plan too. Keep the A7s, convert my A7r to IR and swap out the A7II for an A7RII. There is something special about having the A7s as an infinite ISO camera that I've yet to see matched by anything, including my Nikon Df which is also an ISO monster but 'different'.

    Has anyone tried the longer Sony lenses or 3rd party lenses for high speed AF or use of Sony AF modes? I'm off on Safari in September and wondering whether to take my Nikons (which are a known qty) or Sony A7RII and either Sony A 70-400mm, A 500mm or Tamron Sony 150-600.
    My post a few entries up on this page describes my first impressions with the A7r2 and the 70-400G2 with the LAEA3 adapter.

    I should emphasize that for stationary, or nearly stationary, subjects the AF-S mode is quite snappy and would allow the full 5fps, if desired.

    Of course, I believe the path toward full bit depth would necessitate Single Shot mode. I could be wrong about that since it is not critical to my usual shooting style.

    I have never been on a Safari but from what I have read I would be very comfortable with an all Sony gear package.

    The A7r2 lets me shoot in a true mirrorless style, like my old M4/3's gear or my Samsung NX1, and, overall, delivers a lot more nice images and videos than my old Nikon DSLR's did.

    Lock it down on a tripod, and the A7r2 does not disappoint. Plus, it still does 4K video. Low light video is also cake, using the S35 mode, which may have advantages in Africa. Plus, you could put a speed booster on it if you needed very, very low light video.

    This camera is a monster.

    -Bill

    I like big buffers and I cannot lie

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    What is so wrong with just plain DNG? Why do these manufacturers have to devise their own RAW formats like CR2, etc.

  50. #100
    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Joe it's a given...
    No, it's not. It's not a "given" any more than ISO performance or AF speed are "givens". They're all design parameters that are implemented in hardware and firmware by manufacturers. Initially, when the a7-series was announced, many were complaining about how few FE-mount lenses were available, and about the poor performance of some (Leica and Canon) adapted lenses. Those weren't givens. Those were design choices made by a Sony. When I worked for Ma Bell, the old AT&T, black telephones were a "given". Until they weren't.

    The RAW file format of ANY camera is a design choice that is alterable by the manufacturer IF there is customer demand. As users of the Sony a7-series migrate to that platform from Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc., they have certain expectations of a pro-level $3,200 camera. Lossless compressed RAW is one of them. I'm not an idle complainer nor do I consider finding the absence of a lossless compressed RAW option "foolishness". I understand and accept that some photographers shoot JPEG, or don't print their images to 20x30" as I do, or don't post-process their images to optimize color, tone and smoothness. Maybe, in those use cases, lossy compressed RAW (or JPEG) is OK.

    I've owned an a7R since it was first introduced. Now I have three a7-series cameras, one converted to IR. I also shoot with a Nikon D810 and a Pentax 645Z. And I've been shooting digitally since the Sony Mavica. This isn't my first rodeo. As an engineer by education and a veteran of Bell Labs, I'm inclined to question design choices critically. If they don't make sense, I call them out. I'm not alone. I participate in GetDPI because it isn't inhabited by fanboys and photography wannabees. I can point to countless posts where well-respected members critique a lens because it's decentered, criticize a camera because it exhibits a poor service history, or complain about a manufacturer because it doesn't treat its customers with respect.

    And if you've been following the trends in photography, DSLR sales are down and mirrorless sales are up. Sony mirrorless IS competing with Nikon and Canon DSLRs (and Leica rangefinders) and they're taking market share. That's why mirrorless cameras from Sony, Fuji and others have evolved into full-featured tools that can now be used by professionals engaged in landscape, architecture, street, portraiture/studio, fashion (tribute to Mancuso), etc. Many of us hope that the convergence of mirrorless, DSLR and medium-format features will continue, and that by being explicit and vocal about our photographic needs, manufacturers will listen. Sony definitely listened between the introduction of the a7R and the a7RM2. Let's hope they continue to listen and evolve their offerings.

    I will continue to campaign for lossless compressed RAW. You can ignore me if you wish.

    Joe
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