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Thread: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Interesting. Because if I apply the exact same develop settings to certain files from both cameras in LR, I get orange peel for A7R and II and not for D810. I can certainly process the files in LR so as not to get the peel, but then I lose the sharpness. IMHO the naked developing in C1 is way better but I totally share Lloyd's view that C1 sharpening isn't as good for fine details. The default settings in C1 for the MkII give notably softer results than my standard recipe does in LR.

    As it happens Lloyd hasn't agreed so far to share the file. People will no doubt read into that whatever they like, we'll see but I take from it that he is extremely busy. But has said that he also tried it in Iridient (with which I am not familiar) and got the same results and that he is going to show it to the Raw Digger folks to get their opinion.

    He is a very critical reviewer and I am fully aware that some people don't like his style or trust his underlying motives but I still think there's a very good chance that he is right about this.
    Thanks Tim.
    IIRC he was right about the problem with the Leica Q, no?
    I am glad that he used Iridient. I think it does excellent raw conversion. Easy to use as well.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    The default settings in C1 for the MkII give notably softer results than my standard recipe does in LR.
    Is your standard recipe in LR still the same as what you posted in that other thread? If so, when I get home I'll apply those, do my best to match up in C1, and post some crops. I'm confident that C1 can match the apparent detail minus the orange peel.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Interesting. Because if I apply the exact same develop settings to certain files from both cameras in LR, I get orange peel for A7R and II and not for D810. I can certainly process the files in LR so as not to get the peel, but then I lose the sharpness. IMHO the naked developing in C1 is way better but I totally share Lloyd's view that C1 sharpening isn't as good ...
    I see that you and Lloyd use just about the same ACR sharpening settings (which are pretty aggressive, compared with the defaults and even the Landscape preset). You may call it more detailed (which it is) but it also seems to be surreal, on screen at least; you're eye never sees that detail in reality and so pictures quickly start to look a bit fake. But perhaps the result prints well.

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Sony format used to be uncompressed, they added a compressed format, that nobody complained about, so they too the uncompressed one away (over a number of years / iterations). If this is true, it just goes to show that you just can't please all of the people...

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    My standard settings for capture sharpening are obviously a starting point only because each file then needs different tweaking according to ISO, exposure, emphasis of subject, etc etc. But I default to 60/0.7/70/20 and clarity at 10 with no luminance NR for a lower ISO file from a camera with no AA filter, or for a smaller sensored camera that can't take much more than that. For a full frame sensor with an AA sensor I'll go to about 80 for the first number. I used to use Photokit for output sharpening but now I use the built in print sharpening in LR for prints.

    Those settings may look aggressive but they give great prints and with a camera with resilient files, they are just fine - either on a retina screen, a regular screen at 50% or in a print.

    For the RII I have been tweaking it a lot and have gone to 60/0.7/87/20 for sharpening and for Luminance NR, 33/71/0 BUT that is a work in progress. It gets a file very close to the look of a D810 file but with a touch less detail, however it kills the peel. But as far as I am concerned, changing profile (Adobe versus Camera, Landscape versus whatever) doesn't change sharpening but merely accutance.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Regarding Lloyd and sharing the file, I totally understand why he may be loath to do so. As an ex-reviewer (thankfully) myself, I know what madness that can lead to. People with poorly calibrated monitors with restricted gamut and untrained eyes will be applying all sorts of home brew recipes to it within seconds and he'll have more incoming than a star wars movie. I can see the argument for sharing, too, but if it were me I would only do so privately with trusted individuals.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Ideally, you would be able to reproduce the phenomenon and so not be tied to his raw file.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Regarding Lloyd and sharing the file, I totally understand why he may be loath to do so. As an ex-reviewer (thankfully) myself, I know what madness that can lead to. People with poorly calibrated monitors with restricted gamut and untrained eyes will be...
    There's no way a poorly calibrated monitor or restricted gamut is going to fix the posterization he is showing. If anything, they would make it worse. I'm not going to assume he's keeping the RAW from folks just to continue getting clicks. I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's worried about bandwidth or just can't be bothered. But unless he shares it, I consider his findings to lack credibility.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jrp View Post
    Ideally, you would be able to reproduce the phenomenon and so not be tied to his raw file.
    Perhaps. But if we can't even produce it from his raw file, then there would be no reason to try and reproduce it with our own.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Regarding Lloyd and sharing the file, I totally understand why he may be loath to do so. As an ex-reviewer (thankfully) myself, I know what madness that can lead to. People with poorly calibrated monitors with restricted gamut and untrained eyes will be applying all sorts of home brew recipes to it within seconds and he'll have more incoming than a star wars movie. I can see the argument for sharing, too, but if it were me I would only do so privately with trusted individuals.
    I suspect most would be satisfied if he were to share the file with you Tim and you would take it from there and confirm or not.

    I know I would.

    Cheers, Monty
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    regarding lloyd and sharing the file, i totally understand why he may be loath to do so. As an ex-reviewer (thankfully) myself, i know what madness that can lead to. People with poorly calibrated monitors with restricted gamut and untrained eyes will be applying all sorts of home brew recipes to it within seconds and he'll have more incoming than a star wars movie. I can see the argument for sharing, too, but if it were me i would only do so privately with trusted individuals.
    :lol:

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I'll share whatever I shoot doing test work. I shot a high ISO . Steady shot on/ off on tripod to see if it has any effect at all. I tested Batis 25,85 and zeiss 35 1.4. Corner and center sharpness tests and a few other things. I'll put them all up for download . I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain either way. I don't get one cent for what I post.

    In this case I smell a bad fish. Can't prove it don't ****ing post it. Pardon my French. I'm sickened by this crap I'm seeing. Bias will get you in the toilet. I'm not throwing anyone the TP .

    Yea I copped a attitude today. Back to shooting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    There's no way a poorly calibrated monitor or restricted gamut is going to fix the posterization he is showing. If anything, they would make it worse. I'm not going to assume he's keeping the RAW from folks just to continue getting clicks. I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's worried about bandwidth or just can't be bothered. But unless he shares it, I consider his findings to lack credibility.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. People with low gamut and or poorly calibrated monitors have no idea what a good file looks like because their low gamut monitors posterize everything anyway. Lloyd is an absolute stickler. He is very, very likely to be right about this.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I want to see your shots you took after that last post, Guy! Hope a model wasn't involved

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I've now seen the file and looked at it in both LR and C1 and though it initially looks better in C1 it still looks pretty horrid and is clearly very posterized. I have agreed not to share the file itself. I'm not at my desktop at the moment and so will have to look in more detail tomorrow but there is no doubt in my mind that, while it is certainly a tough subject matter and while this is highly likely to be a very rare problem, it is a problem though it may be that if the shot had been bracketed (not always possible) or had the camera a RAW histogram, then the entire exposure might have shifted to the right and more bits of data been captured in the water.

    One factor I can't quantify is the effect of the polariser, used to take shine off the face. Lloyd is not sure how close to 'full on' it was so we don't know how many stops of relative under exposure it caused for the water, but I would expect a pro level camera to handle it.

    But he exposed the shot pretty much as I would have done myself, to protect highlights on the face, and so I count this as a real-world kind of thing that could happen to me.

    Or you.....
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    It would be good if you could look at the file with just default (including sharpening) settings.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Tim, i would love to see an example where it happens to you. i am willing to wait.

    PS: ihave all sorts of monitors tolook at the images.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I've now seen the file and looked at it in both LR and C1 and though it initially looks better in C1 it still looks pretty horrid and is clearly very posterized. I have agreed not to share the file itself. I'm not at my desktop at the moment and so will have to look in more detail tomorrow but there is no doubt in my mind that, while it is certainly a tough subject matter and while this is highly likely to be a very rare problem, it is a problem though it may be that if the shot had been bracketed (not always possible) or had the camera a RAW histogram, then the entire exposure might have shifted to the right and more bits of data been captured in the water.

    One factor I can't quantify is the effect of the polariser, used to take shine off the face. Lloyd is not sure how close to 'full on' it was so we don't know how many stops of relative under exposure it caused for the water, but I would expect a pro level camera to handle it.

    But he exposed the shot pretty much as I would have done myself, to protect highlights on the face, and so I count this as a real-world kind of thing that could happen to me.

    Or you.....

    Hi Tim

    Are you saying that you downloaded the raw file and processed it yourself with both lr and c1?

    Cheers, Monty

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I want to see your shots you took after that last post, Guy! Hope a model wasn't involved
    Hummingbirds. Okay AF was a nightmare . Lol
    Well the dang things are about a 1.5 inch big. I got them though.


    Just having a little fun earlier but it's always nice to know I am one stupid *** 40 year photography veteran that buys **** cameras. I'm really that stupid. I'm serious I'm going to crave 8 into that S than I won't feel so stupid anymore

    I said 5 things within the first two days. All are true and no one listened.

    Better DR 1/2 stop
    Noise 2 stop advantage
    Film like looking files , much smoother in look.
    Much better AF
    Absolutely buries he A7r

    One more C1 is much better on this camera. Actually extremely good. And yet I said that every issue that has come up has been outside C1. Folks Adobe screwed up the A7RII I'm convinced by it.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Iliah Borg has also had a look at Lloyd's file and said the following:


    "The raw data is posterized OK (partially because the exposure could be 1 stop higher), but also a lot of damage is done in conversion from ProPhoto RGB to output space... It is not a problem with the new camera, it is the result of several things, not in the least that all the cameras from whatever maker, not just SONY, lack proper exposure feedback, and that straightforward colour management is prone to issues. And of course SONY may want to look into revising their output raw format."


    When I asked him if a similar problem could be seen with D810 files subjected to the same color management issues, he replied "Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero)."

    I asked him if it was purely a color management issue, he said "No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage."


    mdcromer asked, "So he did a RAW conversion into ProPhoto, and then converted color space again, presumably to sRGB?"

    Iliah responded, "Adobe RGB, if I remember correctly. At least converting to Adobe RGB shows exact same issues, while in ProPhoto red channel is much smoother and cleaner"


    When I thanked him, he added this, which I found also very interesting:

    "You are welcome. What I do is I watch not just overall exposure, but per channel exposure. If in doubt, bracket. If high contrast daylight scene, I use a CC40M magenta filter, that helps to bring blue and red channels in balance with green channel.

    With a microscope invented, our view of what clean water is changed dramatically. Same with modern low noise high resolution cameras and sharp lenses - we can now see quite a lot of imperfections we missed before. I can hardly see it as something unexpected. Add a little noise, and that clipping is gone."


    Subsequently, Iliah was asked, "The getdpi thread now mentions that Lloyd used a polarizer on this photo. Can you describe if/how that might affect the troubled tonal regions of the image?"

    Iliah: "Polarizer on blue water and blue sky may cause very deep blues, exceeding Adobe RGB gamut."


    Source: A7RII posterization?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


    For those who aren't familiar with Iliah, this exchange further down in the thread may be of interest: Re: Iliah: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
    Last edited by Amin; 21st August 2015 at 02:52.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    One factor I can't quantify is the effect of the polariser, used to take shine off the face. Lloyd is not sure how close to 'full on' it was so we don't know how many stops of relative under exposure it caused for the water, but I would expect a pro level camera to handle it.
    Are you kidding me? And the you I'm referring to is not you but Lloyd Chambers...

    All this high drama over posterization and we now find out about a significant variable directly related to the area of glare from the lake which produced the posterization??
    Last edited by fmueller; 21st August 2015 at 12:47.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by fmueller View Post
    All this high drama over posterization and we now find out about a significant variable directly related to the area of glare from the lake which produced the posterization??

    Yes, odd that Lloyd left that out, but the main issue here seems to be color management.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    This is supposed to be an "expert" ?
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by vivek View Post
    this is supposed to be an "expert" ?
    rotflmao.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Man oh man, this whole thing is one huge overblown misrepresentation perpetrated by one who has probably profited handsomely by "yelling Fire in the theater". My mom would have said he ought to be ashamed of himself, posing all this time as such an expert yet wouldn't acknowledge it was a color manage type problem that could have affected any camera maker. I bet he knew but didn't care that it would be taken as a slam at Sony.

    If I was Sony I would be royally pissed.

    Monty

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Okay then! Let's get back to discussing more serious problems, including unnecessary drops to 12-bit precision, the lack of a lossless RAW option, overheating, and the overabundance of thermal noise in long exposures.

    Poor/no AF with older Canon lenses, I can't hold Sony accountable for. I don't think they made any solid promises in that regard, and it's all, AFAIAC, a bonus

    But as to the quality of the RAW file itself--why shouldn't we expect at least what the D810 can offer, and maybe a little bit more? Why do we have to make all these compromises with a world class sensor in the camera, at $3200, due, it would seem, primarily to Sony's intransigence?

    I kid. But not really.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    This non issue makes me appreciate some of the brilliant people involved in the Sony Internet community that can dispel the myths. Like Iliah Borg, Horshack, Bill Claff, Jim Kasson etc
    Craig Slingsby
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    More excerpts:


    Question: "Which type of correction would that be to eliminate posterization [during conversion from ProPhoto RGB to output space], outside of maybe adding some noise?"

    Iliah: "Selective control over saturation and brightness, first of all. Photoshop allows to select out-of-gamut colours, and then one needs to decide what to do about it."


    Question: "The getdpi thread now mentions that Lloyd used a polarizer on this photo. Can you describe if/how that might affect the troubled tonal regions of the image?"

    Iliah: "Polarizer on blue water and blue sky may cause very deep blues, exceeding Adobe RGB gamut."
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Thanks Amin. I don't think Sony is out of the woods yet. Sony still needs to support 14 bit lossless compression to further improve robustness of their files.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Spence can a 810 apply 5 axis stabilization to every oem lens mounted? Can a 810 apply stabilization to nearly every lens from every manufacturer with adapters? Does the 810 have silent shutter? Does the 810 have a EVF? Does the 810 have 42.4mp? Does the 810 offer 4k video even as clips? Did not Sony show in the manual that it would drop back to 12bit under certain criteria ( I don't know where we get it is unnessasary because I have never seen a company do anything that wasn't necsessary for some reason)? Did Sony state they were going to offer lossless compression?

    The answer to all the above is no. The 810 could be better at one thing and the a7rII better at another. My bet is someone could post or print images from both the 810 and rII and not .02 percent of those viewing them could actually see a difference between them or for that matter most all other high end cameras images. What we are seeing is hair splitting and it would be great IF it had this or that and not actual manufacturing defects associated with the a7rII body specifically or items found outside the design intent normal usage parameters. Just putting these so called issues in perspective and calling them as any manufacturer would call them. If it meets the engineering specs and design intent it is not a product defect. Issues outside this criterial are items that would be viewed as customer product improvements for present or future product engineering consideration. Improvements or upgrades are not viewed as current product defects. Warranty repair information is a products report card for manufacturing defects and issues addressed as priorities. Customer wish items go to product engineering for a through review and cost/effect analysis for future consideration.

    I am not against improvements but can't classify these as issues or defects. Maybe the long exposure hot pixel issue might be but that depends on the spec/ supplied LENR software, and what is normal expected results. Which I know none of these...
    Last edited by Jim DE; 20th August 2015 at 20:10.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Again, I ask:

    As to the quality of the RAW file itself--why shouldn't we expect at least what the D810 can offer, and maybe a little bit more? Why do we have to make all these compromises with a world class sensor in the camera, at $3200, due, it would seem, primarily to Sony's intransigence?

    "Good enough" is not a winning formula for a $3200 FF 35mm equivalent camera, which is bettered in quality by its VERY OWN, previous generation, lower-MP sensor. Absent compelling evidence to the contrary, why?

    Why must it be thus?
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Spence you can actually see a difference in web pics or prints from both camera's? I can't ...

    If you are waving the Internet red flags and the overblown importance of one type RAW format over another then the differences would have to be blatantly obvious to the observer. To my eyes all the images from today's current levels of digital cameras all look great and I can't pic a 810 image from a a900 or d5s or a6000 or even a 750.

    Look I am not against improvements of any kind but to call the lack of a certain feature as a product issue that was never offered for a body implied or stated is just unfair. Would I like lossless compression? Sure why not but I assure you in finished product I will most likely never see the difference. The ridiculous artifact issue if you raise the shadows 5 stops to me is just a absurd and ridiculous example of what Sony's current raw format produces. The day I have to bring shadows up 5 stops to save a pic is the day I will no longer call myself a photographer

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I'll post images later but in real world shooting I shot silent shutter 12 bit and normal shutter 14 bit. I'll be damned if I can see any difference . I'll look more but first blush. Not sure I see a argument visually
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    All I see is more and more posterization in this thread ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Reading through this thread, here's what I understand:
    If I shoot continuous bracket, which I do often, then I get a 12 bit file with lossy compression. The reason I shot continuous bracket is so I can combine the three frames, 2 EV apart, into a 32bit floating point file to ensure I have the highlight and shadows without clipping or blocking. That appears to make the difference between 12 and 14 bit irrelevant. What I've noticed is that most often, the normal or under exposed frame has sufficient dynamic range to cover both highlights and shadows.

    For example:

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    Electronic front curtain shutter means 12 bit lossy file. Mostly using the electronic front curtain shutter is going to be important either on a tripod to minimize camera movement or to reduce noise. The tripod mounted situation is probably going to include bracketing. The noise concern is most likely to be in a situation indoors where either there will be really contrasty light and the shadows are going to have to block up regardless. I shoot weddings so its something to check. Luckily I have an opportunity to do that this Saturday. Two well known Chicago landmarks for testing; Old St. Pat's and Trump Tower. I'll let you know what I find.

    Other people testing is interesting but without a lot more information its subject to a wide interpretation. Having to subscribe to read the details is a deterrent.

    Based on my experience, there is always room for interpretation. Everything that is built to a specification includes tolerances. Its the only way to make anything affordable. I also know from experience, that one can use the tolerances to manipulate the outcome. i.e. a friend wanted maximum horse power from the engine in his acrobatic airplane so I built the engine taking care to minimize all the tolerances that related to compression. And, made sure all the bearing tolerances were a little past the midpoint to reduce friction and improve oil flow.

    The real significance is that there will always be an opportunity to find fault. The reality is that 98% of the time the fault will be with my technique rather than equipment limitations. So, I focus on improving my technique.
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  34. #84
    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post
    Electronic front curtain shutter means 12 bit lossy file.
    Is this so? I understood that Silent Shutter is 12 bit and that EFCS is lossy 14 bit (or lossy 13 bit +1 as some people call it). Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Hi,

    There is a thread over at DPReview discussing the issue at hand:
    http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56349109

    There are some really knowledgable guys on that thread, one of those, Iliah Borg has analysed the actual raw file and found that the main culprit is conversion from Prophoto RGB to Adobe RGB that causes extensive clipping. So I would say that it is a processing error by Diglloyd.

    Personally I don't expect we can count on a firmware fix for the tone-curve compression, that is mapping the 14 bit linear space into a non-linear 11-bit space. The raeson for this is that I would suggest the Sony ASICs are relly only supporting a 12-bit data path.

    Now, Sony also does a block compression that goes over 16 pixel blocks. It is actually non-lossy as long as gradients are small, but can cause artefacts with large gradients, think of sun illuminated bright hair agains black bacground.

    Well, I think Lloyd makes a bit to much noise about this. Also I think he should release the raw image, albeit I understand the issues Tim Ashley rises.

    I would add that Lloyd (Diglloyd) does publish a lot of good stuff. he was first to detect the shutter vibration on the A7r, for instance, but he also failed to understand the real cause of it, namely the vibration caused by the front shutter blade.

    Best regards
    Erik Kaffehr

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    This is my understanding as well

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Is this so? I understood that Silent Shutter is 12 bit and that EFCS is lossy 14 bit (or lossy 13 bit +1 as some people call it). Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post

    Electronic front curtain shutter means 12 bit lossy file. Mostly using the electronic front curtain shutter is going to be important either on a tripod to minimize camera movement or to reduce noise. .
    in my very unscientific testing I compared my A7s and A7rII both without EFCS on and you can feel in your hand that the A7rII shutter mechanism is noticeably 'damped' compared to A7s as Sony claims. I never had the A7r but I am wondering if this newly dampened shutter mechanism will go a long way to getting rid of any shutter shock at lower speeds on a tripod.

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    Smile Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    [QUOTE=ErikKaffehr;655766]Hi,

    "There is a thread over at DPReview discussing the issue at hand:
    http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56349109

    There are some really knowledgable guys on that thread, one of those, Iliah Borg has analysed the actual raw file and found that the main culprit is conversion from Prophoto RGB to Adobe RGB that causes extensive clipping. So I would say that it is a processing error by Diglloyd."

    Actually, if you read further in the thread, Iliah Borg agrees with Lloyd Chambers that there is in fact a problem with the red channel of the RAW file; it is not just a processing issue in his opinion. Still to be determined, AFAIK, is whether the use of a polarizing filter played a significant role here. And, of course, how often this issue is likely to arise.

    I know nobody likes to hear anything bad about their camera, especially when it is new. But every camera has limitations and weaknesses, and I personally am interested in finding out about them. I don't take it as a personal insult when I hear that my cameras (or lenses) might have an issue or two. I want to know. Even if those issues only show up in extreme cases. Don't we want to optimize our equipment, weaknesses and all?

    I suggest caution and open-mindedness.

    Remember, some people said (and still say) that there is virtually no shutter shock with the A7R. People said (and still say) that there is no proof that Sony's RAW compression scheme ever leads to image degradation. People said (and still say) that the original lens mount used by the A7 cameras was plenty strong enough--or even that it was better than Sony's new (whoops!) replacement stainless steel mount. People say there are no RAW artifacts at bright/dark transitions in A7RII files. And people sometimes blame the messenger, only to realize later on that the messenger had a point. Kind of embarrassing, right?

    We can disagree about technical stuff and raise all the objections we want. We can criticize perceived errors or bias. But I don't think we need to launch personal attacks.

    I used to subscribe to some of Lloyd Chambers' sites. I didn't always agree with him, but I found a lot of his work very useful. He's overblown a few issues, but he's raised several that were quite legitimate. He's a skilled photographer, who takes photo gear seriously. He's been early to highlight a number of important issues with the digital imaging chain and with various cameras--issues that others jumped on board with later. If you aren't aware of those, you might want to go back and do some research. He's irreverent towards the camera and software companies, including Leica and Adobe, Canon and Nikon. And Sony. Good for him.

    We'll find out soon enough if Lloyd is right, wrong, or overreacting in this case. IMO, he doesn't deserve to be disrespected. Just my 2 cents.

    --d
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post

    Electronic front curtain shutter means 12 bit lossy file.
    Wrong. EFCS does not drop bit depth. Continuous bracketing/shutter, LENR, silent shutter and bulb do.

    Single bracketing is still 14 bit, so bracketing with the IR/wired remote is just fine. The only one that annoys me is bulb, 12 bit and with spatial filtering ("Star eater" as they say).

    The shutter mechanism in the A7R II is more damped indeed vs. the old A7R, but there really is no reason to disable EFCS unless one encounters the exposure "evenness" problems with very high shutter speeds.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I second Davidstock above. I have also read the entire DPR thread and can't see where Iliah claims to have seen the RAW file. But he quite clearly agrees with a fair part of what Lloyd says.

    And David, I was about to post a link to one of the threads in which people manned the barricades to defend the shutter in the A7r. That makes interesting historical reading. Thanks for making the point, which I think is highly valid.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I second Davidstock above. I have also read the entire DPR thread and can't see where Iliah claims to have seen the RAW file. But he quite clearly agrees with a fair part of what Lloyd says.

    And David, I was about to post a link to one of the threads in which people manned the barricades to defend the shutter in the A7r. That makes interesting historical reading. Thanks for making the point, which I think is highly valid.
    Iliah has seen and analyzed the RAW file and he still agrees the RAW format plays a real part in this.

    There was indeed huge barricades build to deny existence of shutter shock and artefacts in star trails. Until the the photographer (local guy from here, a super-dedicated landscape shooter) who took the star trail photo released the RAW it was labelled as fake/fabrication, after that it was "wrong exposure, wrong raw converter..." none of which made any sense whatsoever.

    As for LLoyd, his representation or choise of words of issues may not please everyone but his hit rate on real issues is very very high.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I second Davidstock above. I have also read the entire DPR thread and can't see where Iliah claims to have seen the RAW file. But he quite clearly agrees with a fair part of what Lloyd says.

    And David, I was about to post a link to one of the threads in which people manned the barricades to defend the shutter in the A7r. That makes interesting historical reading. Thanks for making the point, which I think is highly valid.
    Iliah has seen and analyzed the RAW file and he still agrees the RAW format plays a real part in this.

    There was indeed huge barricades build to deny existence of shutter shock and artefacts in star trails. For example, until the the photographer (local guy from here, a super-dedicated landscape shooter) who took the infamous star trail photo released the RAW it was labelled as fake/fabrication, after that it was "wrong exposure, wrong raw converter..." none of which made any sense whatsoever.

    As for LLoyd, his representation or choice of words of issues may not please everyone but his hit rate on real issues is very very high. He is a reviewer, not a cheerleader. All fanboys hate him, because he exposes/highlight issues on all camera brands.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I agree with the point that Lloyd deserves respect. It's more the hate boys that immediately react to the issue he reported that could use some lessons in moderation, as well as the ones now putting all kinds of **** over what he reported and how he reported it. Immediately jumping on the lossy compression bandwagon and beating that horse to its ump-teens death is what doesn't add any value (and was plain wrong).

    It may not be a camera issue but what we learned is that underexposing deep blues can create havoc in Adobe RGB (and sRGB). It's something we probably subconsciously know but bringing it out specifically like this is something to benefit from and not to criticize too much. We all make mistakes, reviewers and non-reviewers, just keep an open mind and move on is usually the best course of action.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    My understanding is that the question is whether what is seen in the file form Lloyd is due to the Sony compression or not (or maybe it is not, and I just misunderstood). I am sure the red channel really is without information in the RAW file. The problem in blaming this on the compression, is that there is no compression in low contrast shadows. anyone doubting this can search back to the explanation the rawdigger site has published on the Sony compression (or maybe it was Lloyd publishing there findings on his site). and concerning the Sony files being less up to extreme post processing; this could be the case, I do not know, but I do know the Sony a900 files where more 'brittle' compared to those out of a D3x, while the a900 did have a uncompressed RAW mode. and turning this on or off did little to change the difference with the D3x.
    I am sure there are differences between the d810 and the a7rii, but one might be careful in claiming to understand the underlying mechanism.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I have also read the entire DPR thread and can't see where Iliah claims to have seen the RAW file.
    Right here: Re: A7RII posterization?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    mdcromer: "I take it you have looked at the RAW file and analyzed it?"

    Iliah: "Yes, I did."


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    ... But he quite clearly agrees with a fair part of what Lloyd says.
    There are two reasons I quoted Iliah en bloc in this post. First, because there is a high likelihood that DPR will delete that thread like they deleted the first one. Second, because those quotes clearly show that while Iliah feels that the Sony RAW format plays a role, he thinks the largest contributor to what we're seeing is color management.

    I quoted Iliah en bloc, ie no cherry picking. For clarity, I've now gone back to my post and highlighted the parts about Sony RAW format in cyan and parts about colour management in violet.

    Keep in mind that Iliah came to these conclusion even before being told that a polarizer was used, which he subsequently said could also be contributory (added that quote to my post as well).
    Last edited by Amin; 21st August 2015 at 03:10.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I have to disagree here. I get paid to shoot by clients and the old saying is your only as good as your last shoot. Well the missing part of that is you lost the client. Lloyd gets paid to review and that same scenerio goes with him and you get paid to review. He is no diffrent and gets respect by earning it, it's not a given and your not allowed to make mistakes. I'm sorry if a photographer is held up to that standard and loses a client, the same goes for him or any other reviewer. You simple don't post anything until it is figured out and need to take responsibility for yourself just like a Pro shooter does. There is no one to blame , no situation to blame, no raw file or anything like that to blame. You put up bad info , you will get your *** burnt off. Welcome to the real world. If I can lose a paying client than I'm accountable for that. Same with him or anyone else. Reputations are earned and lost by your integrity.

    I'm taking my wife in for MRI's this morning just imagine we get bad data. I know it's a different league but it's really not. You put your name on it, you own it good or bad.

    Sorry there is no hall pass. I have no bitch with anyone but I do have a serious issue with bad data. I had a real issue with this whole Sony release and a ton of bad data. I'm not paying anyone for bad data. the word Professional is not just a word, it's a responsibility .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    the word Professional is not just a word, it's a responsibility .

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I've had another look at the RAW file this morning in both C1 and LR with a variety of different settings from default in both to various tweaks in both. All this on a monitor that is both calibrated and has approx. a full Adobe RGB gamut, so one of the better ones out there. I have also had a look at the file in RawDigger and it is very gappy. Please note that RawDigger is not gamut-dependent, it is merely looking at all the information in the file and showing us where there is and where there is not data.

    We will never know what effect the polariser had on this but I am tempted to agree with both Iliah and with Lloyd and with Alex Tutabalin of RAWDigger that the file format plays a significant part in the effect.

    The file is pretty much unusable though to be fair I haven't tried gamut re-mapping, because it seems to me from looking at the file that there's not enough variation of tones there to re-map and because I don't, frankly, want to spend my time gamut remapping.

    There is an unquantifiable chance that shooting this without a polariser and with more exposure would ameliorate this to a degree, but I can't guess how much of a degree. My guess is that the posterisation would be there to some extent.

    From this I take away the following:

    The lossy file format is just what it says. Generally it won't matter, sometimes, probably rarely, it might and I have little doubt that if data is thrown away, however skilfully, then the files will contain less information, under certain shooting situations, than those from a D810 (resolution aside). In other words the D810 will have a slightly wider shooting envelope in some respects, though the possibility is that a slightly wider DR for the RII might give it a wider shooting envelope in other respects. Horses for courses.

    Put it this way, if I were in front of a tricky scene with both cameras and a wide choice of glass, I'd reach for the D810 unless I really thought the extra tad of DR were that vital.

    As it is, I have both cameras. My initial view was that I'd spend some time with the MkII and then decide if I was going to sell the D810.

    The D810 stays. I won't travel with it if the travel is casual but if I were off somewhere that mattered photographically I would.

    We all see differently (otherwise there would only be need for one photographer, though (s)he'd be pretty busy!) and we all respond to different systems and their files in different ways. This is my way, and I don't expect it to suit everyone or indeed anyone else.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidstock View Post
    I used to subscribe to some of Lloyd Chambers' sites. I didn't always agree with him, but I found a lot of his work very useful. He's overblown a few issues, but he's raised several that were quite legitimate. He's a skilled photographer, who takes photo gear seriously. He's been early to highlight a number of important issues with the digital imaging chain and with various cameras--issues that others jumped on board with later. If you aren't aware of those, you might want to go back and do some research. He's irreverent towards the camera and software companies, including Leica and Adobe, Canon and Nikon. And Sony. Good for him.

    We'll find out soon enough if Lloyd is right, wrong, or overreacting in this case. IMO, he doesn't deserve to be disrespected. Just my 2 cents.

    --d
    Me too.

    I don't disagree with Lloyd's rigor but I do think that he gets over zealous about issues. They may be real, as they are with ALL systems, but to read Lloyd's normal synopsis you'd think that the cameras/lenses are all crap and they evidently are not. To be fair to him at least this time he's accepting that the problems are only evident in pretty much an outlier situation, albeit a random one which is probably what is making people lose their minds over this.

    when it comes to the perfect camera / lens, here's the reality - it doesn't exist (well other than my Alpa/tech glass Just kidding! Really.)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Lloyd initially posted this example of posterization without mentioning use of the polarizer, without recognizing the role of color management, and prior to trying in other raw converters (only afterwards did he try Iridient).

    If anyone doubts that trying a different RAW converter prior to publishing would have been a good idea from such an experienced reviewer, see this: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/kb...osterized.html

    And now in retrospect, he says in his new blog post, "I knew the blue was intense and had I stopped to consider, I’d have known that this could be problematic for the red channel". Would have been nice to include this in the first blog post.

    So what began as being "flabbergasted" at results which he suggested were due to Sony's RAW format now turns into "the Sony A7R II offers a coarse histogram unsuitable for discerning issues in small areas of the frame, and it offers no RGB histogram just for the zoomed-in area... I have also observed misleading errors in the Sony RGB histogram when comparing to the actual raw data in RawDigger..."

    I for one am not "disrespecting" Lloyd. Owning multiple systems, I have no reason to defend one of them. I am a long time Leica user, and neither Lloyd's criticisms of Leica gear nor this Sony stuff bothers my in any personal way. I think that for the most part he does a good job. However, I think we can see that Lloyd is simply less rigorous in his approach than he is being given credit for by some here. At least on some occasions, he publishes findings quickly without details of methodology (eg, polarizer use), source files (raw availability for download), or serious investigation. Then he goes back and revises/updates afterwards. We saw this when he recently posted about abject Leica Q failure that turned out to be something other than that.

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