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Thread: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Tim, interesting thoughts. If some travel mattered "photographically" you would take the D810?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Amin, "Hip shooting" taken to a new level.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Tim, interesting thoughts. If some travel mattered "photographically" you would take the D810?
    Yes, I mean to say that let's say I'm off on a family holiday with a pro-forma beach and want to take some photos, but photography is not the point of the trip, I'd take the Sony knowing that if something came up that I want to shoot seriously and at high quality, I could pretty much always do so very successfully. But if I were off on a primarily photographic trip, say to Iceland or the Amazon or somewhere exciting, I'd take the Nikon.

    I don't really do street any more but I'd also use the Sony if that were the main point of the trip.

    Case in point: next week I'm off to the Venice biennale and then on a cruise taking in some amazing places - but I also have to pack a smoking jacket, smart clothes, casual clothes, a laptop, blah blah blah.. so it's Sony, no brainer! But if I wake up tomorrow morning to find a delicate mist drifting over the dawn English countryside and I want to hop in the car and go to one of my favourite vantage points to shoot it, I'd take the D810.

    Could I make do with just the Sony? Of course. I'm very spoiled!
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    hi all,

    just a few words about me. i´m an advertising and corporate photographer based in austria, so sorry for my english in advance. in the last 12 month i moved
    from hasselblad digital and canon to sony for almost all of my work. the trigger was a dear friend a former canon cps rep and photographer
    which now has become a sony ambassador. my type of works is rather wide spread but with a focus on people and portrait but i also do a lot of moody still life work.
    i also have to confess i´m a little biased because i have good relations to sony.

    in my view the blog post of mr chambers is absolute ridiculous and only made to get attention for his blog. if this is an real issue it should be possible to reproduce it in some form, if it is not replicable it is not an issue. ! to be taken serious he should have validated his observation before going public. i use the a7r2 now for almost a month and have not seen anything similar.


    regards


    christian
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Amin, "Hip shooting" taken to a new level.
    Again, I'm really not trying to be hard on him, and I'm not mad at him at all. I like to look at stuff like this, and I find his work interesting. I recognize it's hard to do, and I know that he has his schtick (clicks are needed when you make a living with this stuff) and that getting stuff out quickly is important in his business.

    But coming from a science research background, I get a little queasy when I read all the comments about him being "critical" and "rigorous". Smart, knowledgeable, talented, experienced, accomplished? Okay. Critical and rigorous? I'm not seeing it.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    Case in point: next week I'm off to the Venice biennale and then on a cruise taking in some amazing places - but I also have to pack a smoking jacket, smart clothes, casual clothes, a laptop, blah blah blah.. so it's Sony, no brainer! But if I wake up tomorrow morning to find a delicate mist drifting over the dawn English countryside and I want to hop in the car and go to one of my favourite vantage points to shoot it, I'd take the D810.

    Could I make do with just the Sony? Of course. I'm very spoiled!
    Tim,

    The D810 is the easy option. I'd hope that if the quality mattered you'd take your IQ180 outfit. Just saying ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    But coming from a science research background, I get a little queasy when I read all the comments about him being "critical" and "rigorous". Smart, knowledgeable, talented, experienced, accomplished? Okay. Critical and rigorous? I'm not seeing it.
    you are correct although I genuinely believe that Lloyd is not a shill but his findings just get the sensationalist treatment (by him or others but the effect is the same). What he finds is normally there but as I said earlier, Lloyd would have you believe that the sky is falling and the reality is that it definitely is not. My A7RII kicks the butt of every other 35mm camera I've ever owned.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Tim,

    The D810 is the easy option. I'd hope that if the quality mattered you'd take your IQ180 outfit. Just saying ....
    I travelled with that setup once. Never again...

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Yes, I mean to say that let's say I'm off on a family holiday with a pro-forma beach and want to take some photos, but photography is not the point of the trip, I'd take the Sony knowing that if something came up that I want to shoot seriously and at high quality, I could pretty much always do so very successfully. But if I were off on a primarily photographic trip, say to Iceland or the Amazon or somewhere exciting, I'd take the Nikon.

    I don't really do street any more but I'd also use the Sony if that were the main point of the trip.

    Case in point: next week I'm off to the Venice biennale and then on a cruise taking in some amazing places - but I also have to pack a smoking jacket, smart clothes, casual clothes, a laptop, blah blah blah.. so it's Sony, no brainer! But if I wake up tomorrow morning to find a delicate mist drifting over the dawn English countryside and I want to hop in the car and go to one of my favourite vantage points to shoot it, I'd take the D810.

    Could I make do with just the Sony? Of course. I'm very spoiled!
    Why not just the amazing and pocketable RX100 iv, Tim?

    BTW, I read a report that the D810A does much better than the D810 (which betterd the D800/E in terms of shutter shock) -almost as clean as the D750, in terms of noise.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I travelled with that setup once. Never again...
    I meant, you're at home, the light'll be great, the car is outside ...

    I agree about travel - take my RX1r, Df with AIS glass or Sony A7(s/II) systems for travel. The tech & MF stuff stays at home unless it's a photo focused trip.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I meant, you're at home, the light'll be great, the car is outside ...

    I agree about travel - take my RX1r, Df with AIS glass or Sony A7(s/II) systems for travel. The tech & MF stuff stays at home unless it's a photo focused trip.
    You're absolutely right but I no longer have a body other than my Alpa for it, and I only have one lens, so it's an even more 'special situation' setup. I love it it but honestly unless I want to print huge, which is rare these days, I prefer the D810...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Why not just the amazing and pocketable RX100 iv, Tim?

    BTW, I read a report that the D810A does much better than the D810 (which betterd the D800/E in terms of shutter shock) -almost as clean as the D750, in terms of noise.
    That goes EVERYWHERE with me! I took it to Poland recently on vacation and it was a pleasure and a joy. I mount it on a Pilotfly gimbal and take lovely video with it, snap away for stills and the results are great. My only caveats are that it hasn't got quite the DR I'd like and that fiddling with the EVF gets old, but for the size and price it is a stunner.

    I suppose I could stump up for a D810A but in reality the madness has to stop somewhere... and bodies are transient but lenses are forever so I keep my options open for the D820....
    Last edited by tashley; 21st August 2015 at 07:00.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Is this so? I understood that Silent Shutter is 12 bit and that EFCS is lossy 14 bit (or lossy 13 bit +1 as some people call it). Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
    Sorry for the error. Glad someone caught it.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Hi Tim,

    My reading of the thread is that Iliah clearly say that he has analysed the actual raw file. Iliah also claims that the main culprit is conversions from Prophoto RGB to Adobe RGB. The colours are shifted outside Adobe RGB and conversion inproperly clips some channels.

    What Iliah Borg says is that it could have been avoided by softproofing the image and adjusting the blues so they are not clipped.

    Now, regarding the Sony raw compression, the issue at hand is really if shot noise + read noise alone is suefficient enough to dither the mage so posterisation can be avoided. Iliah Borg doesn't think so, while Jim Kasson and BClaff happen to think so. Jim Kasson has written a software emulation of the Sony raw compression and has published his findings in a lengthy series of articles. To sum it up, he dowsn't feel its is of concern.

    Very clearly, I don't have an A7r or A7rII. Just a Alpha 99 (and A77, A55, A900, A700, A100, Dimage 7D and a P45+ back). The only clearcut case I have seen of banding was on the P45+, using a 16 bit file. I pretty well know that was a colour management issue as it was visible with Capture One and also with some generated DCP profiles on LR6. Using Adobe DNG Standard Profile on LR6 removed it and also using a DCamProf profile.

    So, I lean quite a bit that it is a colour management issue, possibly paired with the processing pipeline in Lightroom.

    Now, I don't go into denial mode, it ust happens that I understand som of the basics of image data processing and I have read up on the articles of people more knowlegeable than me.

    Just to say, my Sony Alpha 99 uses the tone curve, but it allows for excellent shadow recovery, far better than say my P45+ that is said to use 16-bit data. On the Alpha 900 I have seen something similar to what Lloyd noticed in very deep shadows on exactly one image.

    One other point, I think that it is not OK that Diglloyd makes a lot of statements on his blog but you need to subscribe to his articles to find out details. He recently published a lot of findings on focusing with the Leica S and I sort of defended his writings, based on an earlier article about the S2. But I now feel I shouldn't have done that.

    Also, as I have pointed out, there is a lot of evidence indicating that the problem is not really with Sony raw compression. Pointing fingers at Sony when the main culprit is color management, as pointed out by Iliah Borg, will not help anyone with solving the problem.

    This is not about shooting the messenger, it is about telling the messanger to do his homework.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I second Davidstock above. I have also read the entire DPR thread and can't see where Iliah claims to have seen the RAW file. But he quite clearly agrees with a fair part of what Lloyd says.

    And David, I was about to post a link to one of the threads in which people manned the barricades to defend the shutter in the A7r. That makes interesting historical reading. Thanks for making the point, which I think is highly valid.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    The bottom line is that Sony really has to upgrade the firmware and trash the lossy compressed raw format. If they want to keep it as an option, fine. Although most of us have never seen an issue, the fact that it's possible and technically inferior to images the Nikon can produce is serious to those of us who make a living with our cameras.

    Sony should show us the respect and solve this issue quickly. It is the one justified criticism of the camera on Canon and Nikon forums. Although they are backordered at the moment, that could change quickly if we feel that Sony is not behind us 100%. The new Canon 5DSR is only a few hundred dollars more at the moment and may be 'good enough' a solution until Sony solves this issue. It has me thinking....
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    So many gurus, so little time... While these various experts are disagreeing and (I am sure not by you) being misread and misrepresented, we have to live in a real shooting world, where this will, we all agree, rarely if ever matter. But lossy compression is lossy compression, however you slice the math, and the raw digger histo on that file (utterly not reliant on colour space or management) is a mess. So I know what I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi Tim,

    My reading of the thread is that Iliah clearly say that he has analysed the actual raw file. Iliah also claims that the main culprit is conversions from Prophoto RGB to Adobe RGB. The colours are shifted outside Adobe RGB and conversion inproperly clips some channels.

    What Iliah Borg says is that it could have been avoided by softproofing the image and adjusting the blues so they are not clipped.

    Now, regarding the Sony raw compression, the issue at hand is really if shot noise + read noise alone is suefficient enough to dither the mage so posterisation can be avoided. Iliah Borg doesn't think so, while Jim Kasson and BClaff happen to think so. Jim Kasson has written a software emulation of the Sony raw compression and has published his findings in a lengthy series of articles. To sum it up, he dowsn't feel its is of concern.

    Very clearly, I don't have an A7r or A7rII. Just a Alpha 99 (and A77, A55, A900, A700, A100, Dimage 7D and a P45+ back). The only clearcut case I have seen of banding was on the P45+, using a 16 bit file. I pretty well know that was a colour management issue as it was visible with Capture One and also with some generated DCP profiles on LR6. Using Adobe DNG Standard Profile on LR6 removed it and also using a DCamProf profile.

    So, I lean quite a bit that it is a colour management issue, possibly paired with the processing pipeline in Lightroom.

    Now, I don't go into denial mode, it ust happens that I understand som of the basics of image data processing and I have read up on the articles of people more knowlegeable than me.

    Just to say, my Sony Alpha 99 uses the tone curve, but it allows for excellent shadow recovery, far better than say my P45+ that is said to use 16-bit data. On the Alpha 900 I have seen something similar to what Lloyd noticed in very deep shadows on exactly one image.

    One other point, I think that it is not OK that Diglloyd makes a lot of statements on his blog but you need to subscribe to his articles to find out details. He recently published a lot of findings on focusing with the Leica S and I sort of defended his writings, based on an earlier article about the S2. But I now feel I shouldn't have done that.

    Also, as I have pointed out, there is a lot of evidence indicating that the problem is not really with Sony raw compression. Pointing fingers at Sony when the main culprit is color management, as pointed out by Iliah Borg, will not help anyone with solving the problem.

    This is not about shooting the messenger, it is about telling the messanger to do his homework.

    Best regards
    Erik
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I think we are mixing up the issues. So far the only thing pointed at the raw compression factor has been in Astro photography long exposures. It has not effected anything close to normal general photography situations.

    This image is not related to that in total if at all.

    14/12 bit is a separate issue and techniques that invoke 12 bit. Some of that makes actually sense for processing power. I shot a test yesterday, so far I see no visual difference but I need to look much harder. Which I intend to do and post images with raws

    Raw compression is a separate issue. Yes we all want lossy compression but so far the only real evidence has been that Astro image. It's also a way overblown issue. Everything seems to being blamed on it which is not the case. In total that is

    We are kind of jumping all over the place here. This is also not A7rII camera specific as well. Some of it goes across the system line
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    So many gurus, so little time...But lossy compression is lossy compression, however you slice the math, and the raw digger histo on that file (utterly not reliant on colour space or management) is a mess. So I know what I think...
    So far, none of the gurus have explained how lossy compression is what caused what you are seeing in the raw digger histo. We know that there are other things that affect raw files. It may well be that Sony is altering the raw files in some other fashion. Unfortunately, there is a long history of raw being cooked by Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, and others, sometimes in a way which is dependent on camera settings (corrections, etc). So I think you are jumping to a conclusion. It may be a correct conclusion, but at this point it's a premature one.

    I'm gonna take a D810 out with the A7RII, disable all in-camera corrections for both cameras, mount the same lens on both cameras with the same polarizer / setting, shoot the bluest water I can find, and upload the raws for both. If anyone has any other requests or suggestions, let me know.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think we are mixing up the issues. So far the only thing pointed at the raw compression factor has been in Astro photography long exposures. It has not effected anything close to normal general photography situations.
    Well here's one that shows up in a print

    http://static.timparkin.co.uk/onland...akes/tiled.jpg

    Tim

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by timparkin View Post
    Well here's one that shows up in a print

    http://static.timparkin.co.uk/onland...akes/tiled.jpg

    Tim

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Tim, pull up a stool and join me in the lion's den....
    When you guys stop using LR and ACR than I'll listen until than every issue has not shown up in C1 which is a paternership between Sony and Phase. I have said this a dozen times and I can't seem to get it through but you'll listen to a paid reviewer that does not disclose ****. I'm done with this. Talk about respect . How about me 40 freaking years worth

    Good bye. Not worth my ****ing time
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    So far, none of the gurus have explained how lossy compression is what caused what you are seeing in the raw digger histo. We know that there are other things that affect raw files. It may well be that Sony is altering the raw files in some other fashion. Unfortunately, there is a long history of raw being cooked by Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, and others, sometimes in a way which is dependent on camera settings (corrections, etc). So I think you are jumping to a conclusion. It may be a correct conclusion, but at this point it's a premature one.

    I'm gonna take a D810 out with the A7RII, disable all in-camera corrections for both cameras, mount the same lens on both cameras with the same polarizer / setting, shoot the bluest water I can find, and upload the raws for both. If anyone has any other requests or suggestions, let me know.
    Amin, here's a slice from the DPR thread:

    Amin: So is what Lloyd is reporting as an issue with the A7RII purely a color management issue?
    Iliah: No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage.

    So Iliah, one voice among a goodly choice of experts, thinks that part of it is the raw format. Whether that be cooking and/or lossy compression and/or some other raw format issue, none of us yet knows, we can agree on that. But what I am quite certain of having processed a lot of files from both cameras in both the 'main' processors is that the Sony files are less robust.

    Until I'm blue in the face: throwing data away must have an impact somewhere.
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    When you guys stop using LE and ACR than I'll listen until than every issue has not shown up in C1 which is a paternership between Sony and Phase. I have said this a dozen times and I can't seem to get it through but you'll listen to a paid reviewer that does not disclose ****. I'm done with this. Talk about respect . How about me 40 freaking years worth

    Good bye. Not worth my ****ing time
    I've had Lloyd's raw file and I've opened it in C1 and it's a mess. It has nothing to do with respect, I have that for you in spades.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    And BTWFWIW, Lloyd says he's spoken to the RawDigger boys and that Iliah' s comments were based on his not having processed the file into Adobe RGB the same way as Lloyd did. Lloyd says that he took care to do it correctly and that this is now agreed between Lloyd and Alex, who works with Iliah.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Amin, here's a slice from the DPR thread:

    Amin: So is what Lloyd is reporting as an issue with the A7RII purely a color management issue?
    Iliah: No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage.
    Tim, I quoted that very statement 54 posts ago in this very thread. Even colored it cyan for you. But Iliah neither specifically attributed it to the general lossy compression issue everyone has been discussing (different than saying the raw format is contributory), nor did he explain how one could lead to the other. Hence my statement:

    "So far, none of the gurus have explained how lossy compression is what caused what you are seeing in the raw digger histo. We know that there are other things that affect raw files."


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Tim, pull up a stool and join me in the lion's den....
    Are you Daniel or a lion? I don't see anyone attacking you or vice versa.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I've had Lloyd's raw file and I've opened it in C1 and it's a mess. It has nothing to do with respect, I have that for you in spades.
    Lloyds file has no proof it has anything to do with compression. My comment was based on Tim P compression issue that has not showed up in C1
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    And BTWFWIW, Lloyd says he's spoken to the RawDigger boys and that Iliah' s comments were based on his not having processed the file into Adobe RGB the same way as Lloyd did. Lloyd says that he took care to do it correctly and that this is now agreed between Lloyd and Alex, who works with Iliah.
    Iliah specifically mentioned in the DPR thread that he had processed the file into Adobe RGB and in doing so gotten the same results Lloyd had showed. Again, this was covered in the quotes I posted way up in this thread.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    @Amin, the reason I quoted this again was to narrow in on the fact that Iliah believes that at least part of the issue is due to the raw format and then to agree with you that within the various things that could make the raw format to blame, such as pre-cooking, compression, 'other', we don't know which is the most or only significant factor. I certainly didn't intend to post it to imply that you were in any way hiding the truth, far from it!

    But I do think that if Iliah hadn't realised that Lloyd's processing into Adobe RGB was done correctly (and this is what I most recently hear) but assume that it was done incorrectly, then it might very well be the case that the burden of fault shifts back towards the RAW format.

    Everyone is agreed that we want lossless RAW but few people seem willing to accept that lossy RAW is capable of creating problems. I'm not sure I 'get' that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Iliah specifically mentioned in the DPR thread that he had processed the file into Adobe RGB and in doing so gotten the same results Lloyd had showed. Again, this was covered in the quotes I posted way up in this thread.
    Then we have a disagreement between Lloyd and Iliah and we need to let them sort it out. But my understanding is that Lloyd had processed it differently to how Iliah assumed he had processed it, with Lloyd cognisant of the gamut issues, and still got posterisation.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Frankly Sony should put this situation behind them by supporting 14 bit lossless compression in their cameras ASAP!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Tim, my interest in all of this is mostly just intellectual curiosity. I'm far too casual a photographer to care for any practical purposes.

    I'm convinced that lossy raw can cause some issues with A7RII files. I've seen a bunch of examples of this. I'm not sure if what Lloyd is pointing out with orange peel or posterization represents an issue with the Sony lossy compression, the raw support, the camera settings affecting raw, or something else. I'm interested to dig and learn more.

    Again, I couldn't care less for the purposes of my own photography. I didn't care about my Fuji X10 orbs, my Nikon D600 oil spots, or my M240 banding. None of this stuff bothers me. I do have a longstanding bias towards keeping raw as raw as possible, but that's just an ideal for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    \But my understanding is that Lloyd had processed it differently to how Iliah assumed he had processed it, with Lloyd cognisant of the gamut issues, and still got posterisation.
    It's very clear from the DPR thread that Iliah reproduced Lloyd's findings and found that the bulk of the posterization "damage" happened when going from Pro Photo RGB to Adobe RGB. This doesn't mean that Lloyd processed it wrong or was not cognizant of gamut issues (though he omitted discussion of their contribution until his second blog post).

    There's only one way to convert to Adobe RGB in Lightroom. The methods Iliah mentions which could have prevented the bulk of the "damage" involve specific manipulations during Photoshop soft proofing, manipulations that few of us would do. So it is simultaneously predominantly a color gamut issue as well as a real issue contributed to by raw format, according to Iliah.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post



    Then we have a disagreement between Lloyd and Iliah and we need to let them sort it out. But my understanding is that Lloyd had processed it differently to how Iliah assumed he had processed it, with Lloyd cognisant of the gamut issues, and still got posterisation.
    I agree. These vicarious reviews are so

    You did not see any posterization. Well and good.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Lloyds file has no proof it has anything to do with compression. My comment was based on Tim P compression issue that has not showed up in C1
    For this shot, the problem is not the compression, but missing bits in deep shadows of the red channel, that is decompression resulting in 13-bit data, and with some additional gaps (totally missing data numbers where they need to be present).
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Thanks, Iliah. What is causing those additional gaps, any idea? Could any of the corrections settings in camera be part of the issue?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Funny, at the very beginning of this thread, I went over and saw the photo and thought "he has a problem with gamut happening here..."

    I have seen this from intense blue lake water before, and it is a real problem that is somewhat unique to this type of condition (blue skies don't do it, thankfully).

    I was going to post something about the gamut issue, but he claimed in his post that he didn't have a problem with gamut, and I figured he knew what he was talking about, but I guess not so much in this example.

    In fact, this is really not an unknown problem... I recall seeing a photoshop book for photographers from the early 2000's that discussed this very issue in it, using an example from the waters of Crater Lake here in the US, which is known for its saturated blueish/glacial looking waters.



    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    When you guys stop using LR and ACR than I'll listen until than every issue has not shown up in C1 which is a paternership between Sony and Phase. I have said this a dozen times and I can't seem to get it through but you'll listen to a paid reviewer that does not disclose ****. I'm done with this. Talk about respect . How about me 40 freaking years worth

    Good bye. Not worth my ****ing time
    Happens with C1 too... do you need a screenshot?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Guy,

    I think most people in our industry probably use Lightroom or Photoshop to process their files. This is especially true at ad agencies, design firms and corporate in-house art departments. Sony can't expect everyone to switch to C1. That is not a realistic solution.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    For this shot, the problem is not the compression, but missing bits in deep shadows of the red channel, that is decompression resulting in 13-bit data, and with some additional gaps (totally missing data numbers where they need to be present).
    Can you explain the solution to this problem?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Thanks, Iliah. What is causing those additional gaps, any idea? Could any of the corrections settings in camera be part of the issue?
    It looks like camera "sensitivity" calibration, as the gaps are at the same data numbers in all channels. May be vignetting compensation, for example, or some other compensation.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by timparkin View Post
    Happens with C1 too... do you need a screenshot?
    No totally fine Tim. My point is yes we will see some compression issues come down. The pike. It's pretty rare was my main point. I'm all for 14 bit lossy Rae's but we seem to be blaming everything on this and that's not the case. Frankly I want all the options and the ability to chose or even turn off. I still believe there is a major issue with Adobe right now with this new body. I would not be putting a lot of faith in it right now. Orange peel for instance is not in C1. So red flags get raised.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Freaking typos . No time to fix at hospital. Waiting on test results

    Pardon the typos
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by timparkin View Post
    Happens with C1 too... do you need a screenshot?
    https://www.anony.ws/i/2015/08/21/c1.jpg

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Freaking typos . No time to fix at hospital. Waiting on test results

    Pardon the typos

    Good luck with them!
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    It looks like camera "sensitivity" calibration, as the gaps are at the same data numbers in all channels. May be vignetting compensation, for example, or some other compensation.
    Someone said that the EXIF showed that Lloyd was using lens correction settings for color fringing. Don't know if he was also doing vignetting comp. I always turn all that stuff off and wonder if the gaps would still be present in that case, and whether in turn the "posterization" would still be present.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    For this shot, the problem is not the compression, but missing bits in deep shadows of the red channel, that is decompression resulting in 13-bit data, and with some additional gaps (totally missing data numbers where they need to be present).
    Thanks Iliah, but because I am no genius, could you spell it out for me: if the problem is in decompression but is seen in LR, Iridient and C1, then what causes the decompression problem other than the way in which the data was compressed? I am confused!

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by timparkin View Post
    What does this show?
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Hi,

    I don't see banding, but out of gamut colours is very common on flowers and vegetation. I don't really know how to handle them...

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Tim, my interest in all of this is mostly just intellectual curiosity. I'm far too casual a photographer to care for any practical purposes.

    I'm convinced that lossy raw can cause some issues with A7RII files. I've seen a bunch of examples of this. I'm not sure if what Lloyd is pointing out with orange peel or posterization represents an issue with the Sony lossy compression, the raw support, the camera settings affecting raw, or something else. I'm interested to dig and learn more.

    Again, I couldn't care less for the purposes of my own photography. I didn't care about my Fuji X10 orbs, my Nikon D600 oil spots, or my M240 banding. None of this stuff bothers me. I do have a longstanding bias towards keeping raw as raw as possible, but that's just an ideal for me.




    It's very clear from the DPR thread that Iliah reproduced Lloyd's findings and found that the bulk of the posterization "damage" happened when going from Pro Photo RGB to Adobe RGB. This doesn't mean that Lloyd processed it wrong or was not cognizant of gamut issues (though he omitted discussion of their contribution until his second blog post).

    There's only one way to convert to Adobe RGB in Lightroom. The methods Iliah mentions which could have prevented the bulk of the "damage" involve specific manipulations during Photoshop soft proofing, manipulations that few of us would do. So it is simultaneously predominantly a color gamut issue as well as a real issue contributed to by raw format, according to Iliah.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterSteve View Post
    Can you explain the solution to this problem?
    First and foremost, try to not underexpose, that means per channel underexposure, not just overall exposure to the right. Consider this: red channel is week, and white balance multiplier for the red channel is 2.4 on this shot, that is even with green channel exposed to the right the red channel is still underexposed more than 1 stop. For daylight shooting a magenta filter (like a Lee CC40M / CC50M) on the lens will bring the channels more to the balance.

    Second, do not trust numbers like 14-bit dynamic range, confine yourself to sane 8 to 9 stops, 10 max.

    Third, it is not always that the cleanest shadows are at base ISO, sometimes photographically next ISO setting results in better images, test it.

    Forth, exercise conversions between colour spaces with caution, check for any gamut issues before converting and address those.

    That might not look like a solution, but it helps mitigate the problem.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    First and foremost, try to not underexpose, that means per channel underexposure, not just overall exposure to the right. Consider this: red channel is week, and white balance multiplier for the red channel is 2.4 on this shot, that is even with green channel exposed to the right the red channel is still underexposed more than 1 stop. For daylight shooting a magenta filter (like a Lee CC40M / CC50M) on the lens will bring the channels more to the balance.

    Second, do not trust numbers like 14-bit dynamic range, confine yourself to sane 8 to 9 stops, 10 max.

    Third, it is not always that the cleanest shadows are at base ISO, sometimes photographically next ISO setting results in better images, test it.

    Forth, exercise conversions between colour spaces with caution, check for any gamut issues before converting and address those.

    That might not look like a solution, but it helps mitigate the problem.
    Thank you for that.

    So, it is possible that all the folks who have not seen this posterization may be doing things right to capture photos.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Thank you for that.

    So, it is possible that all the folks who have not seen this posterization may be doing things right to capture photos.
    Or get lucky?

    Vivek, thanks. I approach this subject from the point of view of eliminating possible sources of problems first, like for example lossy compression that should be straight forward for Sony to correct. Then focus on remaining issues. Until then workarounds are called for, like a Lee CC40M / CC50M filter as suggested by Iliah Borg.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    There are a lot of lucky people around, K-H. See post #132 from Michael.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I think this discussion, with Iliah's help, has sort of clarified the boundaries of the issue.

    1. The artifacts Chambers showed are probably rare, but they are real.

    2. There is data missing at a particular point in the red channel of the A7II RAW file. This is the root cause of the artifacts. The artifacts are not just, or even mainly, problems with RAW developers or color management.

    3. The issue can be made worse by sub-optimal exposure and poor color management.

    4. Rather strict measures might be necessary to mitigate the artifacts in the limited cases where they arise. Those measures might include appropriate filtration and careful analysis of red channel exposure (at a level of precision for which the in-camera histogram is inadequate). Another possible form of mitigation might be to shoot at an ISO slightly higher than base. (I don't know for sure why this would help, but I speculate that it might have to do with the dithering effect provided by the presence of faint noise.) This would certainly be easier than the other measures!

    5. These mitigation measures still may not eliminate the artifacts altogether in all cases, but they would optimize our chances of a good file.

    --d
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidstock View Post
    3. The issue can be made worse by ... poor color management.
    I would say "default colour management" rather than "poor"

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