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Thread: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

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    Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I just read where Lloyd Chambers (Digital Lloyd) is seeing some pronounced Posterization with some A7r ll files. Anybody seeing evidence of this?
    J. Paul

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    Senior Member eleanorbrown's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    No I haven't...not so far anyway (I read Lloyds article on this)....but I'm converting my RAWs in C1, not LR so that may (or may not?) make a difference. Will be curious to see what others have to say. Eleanor

    Quote Originally Posted by jpaulmoore View Post
    I just read where Lloyd Chambers (Digital Lloyd) is seeing some pronounced Posterization with some A7r ll files. Anybody seeing evidence of this?
    J. Paul

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Nothing from C1
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    None here, also using C1.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    It would be interesting to drop that file that Lloyd has shown (his daughter by the blue lake) into C1 because it is really, really nasty as output from ACR. I have emailed him to ask if he could try it. But I have to say that the underlying unease I expressed at the outset about the files from the A7RII is not going away.
    Last edited by tashley; 19th August 2015 at 16:49.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Is the raw file available for others to try? <--- Probably a stupid question.

    In the end, maybe Mr. Chambers does all of us a favor by forcing Sony to support 14 bit lossless compression in their cameras?
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 19th August 2015 at 17:08.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Is the raw file available for others to try? <--- Probably a stupid question.
    Doesn't seem to be. Seems very odd that it isn't.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I have seen it on the web with files PP with Adobe but not with mine or others using C1.

    I think Adobe rushed their update because they knew C1 already released their update and have shown some issues like LE hot pixels, shadow noise, and posterization that are nonexistent using C1's basic conversion. When I first saw early images I did not know if the effect was a result of increased DR or that the OP's were just moving the shadow and highlight sliders too far. Posterization defines what I saw pretty well with Adobe conversions.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Here is a RAW file I took with my A7RII that has some water ripples with blue and green tones:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93...ew?usp=sharing


    I'm away from home and don't have ACR on this computer. Can someone process it there and tell me if you see posterization? I don't see any in the C1 conversion.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Just opened it in Photoshop and it looks fine to me. Is there something I can push in the adjustments to bring out any issues?
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Not that I know of.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Imported image into LR6 and can't see any problems at 1:1 in fact all I can say is WOW at the detail as I don't think I have ever stopped my FE55 down to f11

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Could it be a single corrupted file?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Hi,

    This example may be caused by the camera profile. I have seen some odd banding/posterisation artefacts cuased by home made DNG-profiles and also Capture One on files from my Phase One P45+ back using what they call 16-bit files. With some DNG profiles and the Capture One profile there was horrible banding, with Adobe Standard none at all. Profiles are complicated, far to complicated I would say.

    Sony's raw compression can cause artefacts, though, but nothing like what Lloyd shows. The best example I have seen have been shown by Lloyd and it is a star tracks image:


    This image has been used by the RawDigger folks who explain how it works: RawDigger: detecting posterization in SONY cRAW/ARW2 files | RawDigger

    Personally, I would expect that the "delta" compression could cause artefacts but Lloyd seems to be obsessed with density curve compression which would not give any posterisation.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by jpaulmoore View Post
    I just read where Lloyd Chambers (Digital Lloyd) is seeing some pronounced Posterization with some A7r ll files. Anybody seeing evidence of this?
    J. Paul
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 19th August 2015 at 22:50.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Hi,

    I don't see any artefacts with LR6. With artefacts on rippled water I would expects some problems with colour aliasing, but not at f/11 on the Sony. Anyway I cannot see anything I would called posterisation.

    There can be a lot of causes to posterisation, screen profiles and colour profiles can have discontinuous gradients.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Here is a RAW file I took with my A7RII that has some water ripples with blue and green tones:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93...ew?usp=sharing


    I'm away from home and don't have ACR on this computer. Can someone process it there and tell me if you see posterization? I don't see any in the C1 conversion.
    Homepage: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Someone at DPR mentioned that the EXIF for Lloyd's file mentioned that he used JPEG Quality "8". Could this be an issue?

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Someone at DPR mentioned that the EXIF for Lloyd's file mentioned that he used JPEG Quality "8". Could this be an issue?
    Nope, it's an ARW file. I have written and asked him to try it in C1 or to let me have the original file via dropbox so I can try it.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    The RAWDigger histograms of LLoyd's file (inside sub area) are quite worrisome. In each color channel that each have about 10M value (R, 2 x G & B channels as sensor is Bayer filtered) there is huge "piling" of luminance values into same values, near half million same values (in a full 14 bit RAW there would be potentially 16 000 different values) and about 50% of each channels contains value selected from less than 20-30 different values.

    If the file was from a Nikon D810 for example there would be more even distribution, where Sony has half million same values Nikon woiuld have 250K etc. ==> Way easier task for demosaic algorithm to put out clean output.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    We all know that Sony uses lossy compression so Im not sure why we're surprised when sometimes the cost of that becomes evident. Clearly the files can't be as good as those from a D810 - they contain less information.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    We all know that Sony uses lossy compression so Im not sure why we're surprised when sometimes the cost of that becomes evident. Clearly the files can't be as good as those from a D810 - they contain less information.
    Sorry not buying that argument.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Now this is getting interesting It would seem that the Sony A7r ll sensor (being Sony's latest sensor design) should be as good or better than the Nikon 810 sensor. If this is not the case, why? Is compression the issue?
    J. Paul

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    We all know that Sony uses lossy compression so Im not sure why we're surprised when sometimes the cost of that becomes evident. Clearly the files can't be as good as those from a D810 - they contain less information.
    Bingo... Hit the nail on the head. The other issue may be 12bit, though IDK if this is the case, but I suspect it is. Sony best wake up and smell the coffee -- lossy compression is just plain stupid in today's world with cheap storage space. Don't get me wrong, it should be offered as an option for users that want it, but right alongside the option to use full lossless 14bit...

    My .02
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    We all know that Sony uses lossy compression so Im not sure why we're surprised when sometimes the cost of that becomes evident. Clearly the files can't be as good as those from a D810 - they contain less information.
    Could you show comparison shots to illustrate that is the case and why would it only show "sometimes"?

    Thanks!
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Nope, it's an ARW file. I have written and asked him to try it in C1 or to let me have the original file via dropbox so I can try it.
    It's an ARW file, but he's showing us a JPEG. Apparently a JPEG generated with level 8 quality. I'm surprised he'd go lower than 10 for this kind of scrutiny.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Bingo... Hit the nail on the head. The other issue may be 12bit, though IDK if this is the case, but I suspect it is. Sony best wake up and smell the coffee -- lossy compression is just plain stupid in today's world with cheap storage space. Don't get me wrong, it should be offered as an option for users that want it, but right alongside the option to use full lossless 14bit...

    My .02

    I have no quarrel with wanting lossless, but that's a separate issue from Lloyd's posterization. It's hard for me to believe that this horrendous result Lloyd is showing represents a real phenomenon with the A7RII. I'm shooting mine every day in all kinds of conditions and have not seen anything even slightly reminscent of what he's shown with that pic of his daughter.

    Will be very interesting to see if Lloyd makes his RAW file available.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I have no quarrel with wanting lossless, but that's a separate issue from Lloyd's posterization. It's hard for me to believe that this horrendous result Lloyd is showing represents a real phenomenon with the A7RII. I'm shooting mine every day in all kinds of conditions and have not seen anything even slightly reminscent of what he's shown with that pic of his daughter.
    Bingo bingo bingo. It's a absolute witch hunt. I'm heading out to go shoot in Jerome. This is really getting old and boring. Sure I want lossless but the effects on what Sony is doing are very very small effecting the files. And only in certain situations. I'm just going to say it **** it. I dont trust what I'm seeing. Enough said

    I just changed the name on my camera with a sharpie it now reads 8ony. Wow is this thing amazing
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Could you show comparison shots to illustrate that is the case and why would it only show "sometimes"?
    If one understands the compression algorithm used it is quite clear why it only shows sometimes. For example original star trail artefacts need very very specific high contrast edges to appear: bright enough star trails with a background that makes the artefacting show.

    Like RAWDigger article on this says: "For a larger span, the scheme does introduce the rounding error, which may lead to posterization. In other words, if the chunk of 32 pixels spans across an area that contains a large variation in brightness, the data in the block is not exact, but is only an approximation."

    Compression blocks that contain star trails have huge data span, bright trail on darkish background ==> lots of approximation/rounding errors that show very clearly if pushed.

    In Lloyds example take compression looks to cause different problems, but root cause seems to be the same. Not enough different values available to draw nice patterns over a huge area. Like said, big percentage of each color channels 10M pixels are picked from more more than 30 or so luminance values. The value distributions in the histogram look bad. Not a fun case for demosaic algorithm.

    I have propably 35000+ pics on the different E Mount cameras in over 4 years and I have had single incident of compressed RAW behaving really badly. But I'm a M. Sc. in Computer Science and now that I have studied the compressed algorithm enough I have no issue understanding why it would fail quite badly when certain stars align badly.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Could Sony give us a lossless compression with a simple software update? That would be ideal. Eleanor

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Bingo... Hit the nail on the head. The other issue may be 12bit, though IDK if this is the case, but I suspect it is. Sony best wake up and smell the coffee -- lossy compression is just plain stupid in today's world with cheap storage space. Don't get me wrong, it should be offered as an option for users that want it, but right alongside the option to use full lossless 14bit...

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    tn, Thanks for your attempt to explain it. Would have made sense better if the D810 with no compression was used at the same location to say that it does not happen with it but only with the A7rII.

    Trust me that I do not want to go back to the dark ages of a DSLR but would like the Sony cams to improve if this is true.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    No pre-order yet for my first FF Sony. Will I ever Sony?


    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorbrown View Post
    Could Sony give us a lossless compression with a simple software update? That would be ideal. Eleanor

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    tn, Thanks for your attempt to explain it. Would have made sense better if the D810 with no compression was used at the same location to say that it does not happen with it but only with the A7rII.
    It would indeed be very nice to have even one example of comparison shots made, but since the issues tend to only become visible when one is sitting in front a computer with lot miles and hours separated from exact conditions that made the issues surface.

    To simplify it a bit (a lot actually): A D810 has minimum of 2x more different colored pens to paint any surface area. Sometime the lack of pens shows.

    I love my A7R II, I'm shooting more than ever (I think I already have over 4000 shots on this one) and nailing shots that would not be possible with any other camera. Yet I have no issue with these discussions about the problems, would love to have lossless RAW and get rid of hot pixel issues. Sony gave ( well sold ) us a brilliant camera, but I gave them a lot of money so I'm not giving them extended vacation to sit on the issues. Although to me it looks more and more that the issue is in the Bionz-series processing chip; it is the only common variable with all the EVF-equipped Sony system cameras. Why an earth would a new camera with a sensor that has multiple times faster readout speeds still drop in to 12-bit mode same way as a way older model with an older generation sensor..
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Could you show comparison shots to illustrate that is the case and why would it only show "sometimes"?

    Thanks!
    Nope, that's why I've asked Lloyd for his file.

    I do notice the 'orange peel' a lot, though.

    I once had a similar 'horrible water' look from some Oly MFT camera shot in RAW. Never seen it on the D810 or D800 OR any of my Sony cams but then it does take very particular conditions to make it happen, or so it would seem.

    Why don't we all hold fire until we see if Lloyd will share is RAW file?

    Just to be clear, because I can see that my post above has raised some incipient ire (apart from with Jack): I am really quite certain that the files at, say ISO 100 are not as 'good' as from the Nikon. They have Orange Peel and they break apart more quickly under PP pressure. There is more shadow noise, possibly, and I have seen nasty single pixel noise at higher ISO but so far only in badly taken frames that didn't matter. So AFAIAC the camera stays because its' faults will show rarely and it has a host of other things going for it which are really great. But I do believe that the 12 bit/lossy compression thing will matter sometimes. Really, I think that is pretty clear. There is no free lunch and Lloyd's RAWdigger histos, taken from the RAW file (obviously) tell it the way it is.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post
    It would indeed be very nice to have even one example of comparison shots made, but since the issues tend to only become visible when one is sitting in front a computer with lot miles and hours separated from exact conditions that made the issues surface.
    A direct comparison to show it happens with A7RII and not with S810 is all I look forward to.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Tim looking all over the web it is painfully obvious AcR and LR are doing a **** job on this camera. No one using C1 is seeing anything but awesome looking files. Every forum every thread I'm reading the same thing everywhere. Like using it or not or even hate it. No one is complaining about the files using C1. ACR is about the worst raw processing engine there is. Not sure what the bottom line issue is with ACR but everything suspect has come out of a AcR or Lr processing. Not a dig but I don't get it.

    im laughing at the Nikon comment too but I'm no fanboy of anything. So I really don't give a load. Nikon owners want to believe that with the older sensor good on them. Sony certainly needs to fix some of the compression issues and use lossy raw but that has showed up in astro photography which works out to be .01 percent of its usage. Hardly devastating

    A lot of over the top comments lately and seriously watch where some of this is coming from. Don't be naive these folks are making money in Sony faults
    I'm gone with this witch hunt lately. I'm going to do what I do best in life, go shoot and try to be happy with my life.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    I'm trying to imagine why Lloyd might not share his raw file.

    Only thing I can come up with is not nice.

    Cheers, Monty

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Nope, that's why I've asked Lloyd for his file.
    If you have not seen it, your earlier post was a projection based on one blog post?

    *If* this is true (lossy files making a mess) it saves me a lot of cash. I am still not buying the nikon DSLRs though. So, additional savings on top of that.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Tim looking all over the web it is painfully obvious AcR and LR are doing a **** job on this camera. No one using C1 is seeing anything but awesome looking files.
    Yep, I made the same RAW file I shared above available in a DPR thread. Someone there processed it in ACR using the settings from Lloyd's EXIF - bam, orange peels. My C1-processed file had more apparent detail, less apparent noise, and no kind of fruit texture whatsoever.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by slickster View Post
    I'm trying to imagine why Lloyd might not share his raw file.

    Only thing I can come up with is not nice.

    Cheers, Monty
    I can't say that I've ever heard of a camera that Lloyd didn't have a problem with and controversial comments about. Strange how that attracts people to his web site as result isn't it?

    It kind of reminds me of that other fella out there ... Ken somebody or other ...

    /cynical mode off
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    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Unhappy Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Yes, that's kinda what I meant.

    Cheers, Monty

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Sony can easily avoid this discussion by supporting 14 bit lossless compression in their cameras.
    That would be the end of this unfortunate discussion.
    Athough Adobe's software doesn't seem as good in raw conversion as others, Sony would benefit if their files behaved well with it.
    Of course, Mr. Chambers seems to be pushing the envelope because that is in his financial interest. So what?
    I think the sooner Sony corrects their approach the better.

    My A7RII is scheduled to arrive later today and I will enjoy it regardless!!!
    I also use my D800E and I hear clearly what Tim Ashley has pointed out.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I can't say that I've ever heard of a camera that Lloyd didn't have a problem with and controversial comments about. Strange how that attracts people to his web site as result isn't it?

    It kind of reminds me of that other fella out there ... Ken somebody or other ...

    /cynical mode off
    What?! Rockewell is a gem!

    Unfortunately, he has not reviled anything since the A7.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Nope, that's why I've asked Lloyd for his file.
    ...

    Why don't we all hold fire until we see if Lloyd will share is RAW file?
    Let us know if he sends it, or what he replies.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatko Batistich View Post
    Let us know if he sends it, or what he replies.
    I would be really amazed if he shared that raw file.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by slickster View Post
    Yes, that's kinda what I meant.

    Cheers, Monty
    it wasn't lost on me ...

    Btw, I'm not disputing the fact that LLoyd finds issues but they just always seem to come across as though the sky is falling and it most certainly is not.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorbrown View Post
    Could Sony give us a lossless compression with a simple software update? That would be ideal. Eleanor
    Almost definitely so via a firmware update...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Sony can easily avoid this discussion by supporting 14 bit lossless compression in their cameras.
    I'd love to see them offer 14-bit lossless. But I don't believe the "orange peel" or posterization Lloyd noted has anything to do with 14-bit lossless.


    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Athough Adobe's software doesn't seem as good in raw conversion as others, Sony would benefit if their files behaved well with it.
    It would be mutually beneficial to both Adobe and Sony. There are a lot of cameras where Adobe's initial support was not great and their subsequent support was improved. Hopefully this will be the case here as well.
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you have not seen it, your earlier post was a projection based on one blog post?

    *If* this is true (lossy files making a mess) it saves me a lot of cash. I am still not buying the nikon DSLRs though. So, additional savings on top of that.
    Not sure what you mean by that Vivek - but his post does contain a proper Raw Digger Histo of the RAW file, so I don't think I'm projecting' anything, just being honest about what I see (and don't see) so far in my files and about the inevitability of there being affects of bossy compression....

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Not sure what you mean by that Vivek - but his post does contain a proper Raw Digger Histo of the RAW file, so I don't think I'm projecting' anything, just being honest about what I see (and don't see) so far in my files and about the inevitability of there being affects of bossy compression....
    Freudian slip?
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I'd love to see them offer 14-bit lossless. But I don't believe the "orange peel" or posterization Lloyd noted has anything to do with 14-bit lossless.
    Interesting. Because if I apply the exact same develop settings to certain files from both cameras in LR, I get orange peel for A7R and II and not for D810. I can certainly process the files in LR so as not to get the peel, but then I lose the sharpness. IMHO the naked developing in C1 is way better but I totally share Lloyd's view that C1 sharpening isn't as good for fine details. The default settings in C1 for the MkII give notably softer results than my standard recipe does in LR.

    As it happens Lloyd hasn't agreed so far to share the file. People will no doubt read into that whatever they like, we'll see but I take from it that he is extremely busy. But has said that he also tried it in Iridient (with which I am not familiar) and got the same results and that he is going to show it to the Raw Digger folks to get their opinion.

    He is a very critical reviewer and I am fully aware that some people don't like his style or trust his underlying motives but I still think there's a very good chance that he is right about this.

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    Re: Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

    Tim, No idea what RAWdigger can do? if I have a problem like that I would ask Sony instead.

    You did not see any posterisations with your camera so far. No one participating here have either

    i do not give much credence to rockewell, etc folks. I have no problems in their making a business out of this since evidently there are people who are in need of spending their cash on such.

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