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Thread: An interesting Review of a7rII

  1. #51
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Oh they are ISO 800 . Did not realize that till you asked. Not the sharpest with the extension tubes and the Batis 85 but thats me. I just ran outside to shoot it quickly to test the tubes
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    We should probably run a test on this orange peel thing to be sure and process the same well shot images in both converters because I really have not seen that orange peel effect. I agree that is ugly. I said this before I am still not sure the ACR engine has this camera right yet. Those are not flame bait comments at all. Like to get to the bottom of this because a lot of reviews and tests are being done through LR and ACR and if its not good right now than those test are invalid.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Nothing really I think. As I mentioned above it's not what he says on the camera (which most people can buy into) but how he says it, especially the third sentence is just there as click bait to get traffic rather then anything a serious reviewer should get involved with.
    ah:
    "Fanboys should stop reading now. There are uncomfortable truths contained within this post"



    I agree that's a silly sentence, "Fanboy" is as insulting as "Chowderhead",
    but jeez you can see why he makes the disclaimer.

    Boys just love to fight over their cameras, I guess. And I must plead guilty to the crime myself, on occasion.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Whenever I use ACR for a quick conversion I have to be very careful about the 'detail' setting - which I have a preset of '5'. Sometimes I just zero it out because at its default setting it can really be brutal on a file. I really like using Bridge as my browser and although I can force a C1 file development it automatically resorts to ACR which at times is just fine. My preset for sharpening in ACR is 100, 0.5, 5 with no masking.

    Victor

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    ah:
    "Fanboys should stop reading now. There are uncomfortable truths contained within this post"



    I agree that's a silly sentence, "Fanboy" is as insulting as "Chowderhead",
    but jeez you can see why he makes the disclaimer.

    Boys just love to fight over their cameras, I guess. And I must plead guilty to the crime myself, on occasion.
    I think I know that guy that said chowderhead. LOL

    No question I can be a *** . Proudly admit it. At least Im funny at it. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    We should probably run a test on this orange peel thing to be sure and process the same well shot images in both converters because I really have not seen that orange peel effect. I agree that is ugly. I said this before I am still not sure the ACR engine has this camera right yet. Those are not flame bait comments at all. Like to get to the bottom of this because a lot of reviews and tests are being done through LR and ACR and if its not good right now than those test are invalid.
    This weekend I shot some iso 6400 and iso 12.800 files on a borrowed A7Rii and with my default LR settings didn't get any noticable orange peel. However when you up clarity, sharpening and detail it's very easily created. So I'm all for some more rigorous testing at different iso's, but another very important aspect of those tests is to report the LR slider settings with it, so we know what we're looking at.

  7. #57
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    You lost me here after you said C1 has less useful sharpening than C1. Which one of those was supposed to be LR?




    Please show it to me in a C1 processed crop and let me know the settings you used, because I can only see it in LR.
    Thank you for pointing out my typo Amin, I have now corrected it in the original post. I meant that C1's sharpening is not IMHO as useful as LR.

    No need to provide you with evidence*, since you have the gear yourself and as you will note, I was pointing out that exporting the file from C1 with no sharpening or NR or any adjustments at all, as a 16bit ProPhoto TIFF, then importing that to LR and giving it what I consider correct sharpening** will show the OP. As I said, the reason you don't see it in C1 is mostly that C1 uses low sharpening and high NR as default. It's default processing is highly flattering to the sony files.

    *which I suspect you wouldn't accept the validity of. And that's fine. I know what I think is appropriate sharpening and you know what you think is appropriate. Our needs, output and final audience are probably very different, so one size will not fit us both.

    **For a file from an AA free camera such as the D810 or the ArRII I favour 60/0.7/70/20 with no NR at low ISO. Some might regard that as aggressive but it works extremely well with the less fragile files from the D810 and was always good from the D800E too. I also often add +1 clarity, depending on the import profile and the local area contrast and structure of the image.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think I know that guy that said chowderhead. LOL

    No question I can be a *** . Proudly admit it. At least Im funny at it. LOL
    Haha me too

    We are passionate about the stuff.

    The disagreements and the controversy, in the end, pushes us all to learn.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    No need to provide you with evidence*... *which I suspect you wouldn't accept the validity of.
    I think you're underestimating me. I haven't come across compression artifacts in my own photos, but I can easily recognize and am more than happy to accept the validity of the many examples which others have demonstrated in their files. Just yesterday someone on this forum linked to an example which helped me learn more about this issue. I'd be genuinely interested to see the orange peeling that you are seeing in files which have undergone demosaicing in C1. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean I won't accept it. But if it's too much trouble or you'd rather not, no worries.
    Last edited by Amin; 25th August 2015 at 13:56.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I think you're underestimating me. I haven't come across compression artifacts in my own photos, but I can easily recognize and am more than happy to accept the validity of the many examples which others have demonstrated in their files. Just yesterday someone on this forum linked to an example which helped me learn more about this issue. I'd be genuinely interested to see the orange peeling that you are seeing in files which have undergone demosaicing in C1. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean I won't accept it. But if it's too much trouble or you'd rather not, no worries.

    That's not the issue Amin, and I would I am quite certain be wrong to underestimate you!

    I think what I am saying is that you have all the equipment and all the software and if you're not seeing it with settings that matter to you, then it really doesn't matter to you.

    But if you want to find it, then I can tell you this: I see it in many, many 'normal' files processed my way (in either LR or in C1>tif export>finish in LR) but if you want to find it at its most obvious, try a file (ISO 100 is fine) with some OOF transitions, sharpen my way, and take a look. If you don't see it, all's fine and dandy and if you do see it, then my processing recipe is not for you! Some people see it, some people don't and I am sure it depends on how they handle sharpening, NR and clarity.

    One thing I still don't get though: (nearly) everyone (including I believe yourself, if I correctly recall) has chimed in with their preference for files that are less pre-cooked and have lossless compression. But if you're not seeing the evidence of either these in any of your files, why do you care?
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Ming has always impressed me as a studious technician but this 'review' feels hastily written and pretentious.

    For myself, I am getting really lovely images from the A7r2 that I simply would have either struggled to get or missed altogether with my Nikon, Leica or M4/3's gear.

    The A7r2 is clearly a top level camera that many pros and enthusiast photographers are already using to great effect. It is allowing me to get shots I could not get with any camera I have ever owned previously.

    My A7 was very good at some things but it was not a threat to my D800/D4 twin towers.

    The A7r2 has, for me, replaced both, lacking only sports shooting capabilities.

    My Samsung NX1 does enough of the sports shooting to fill the gap for my usage.

    The next generation of Sony bodies can only be guessed at but I don't think they are letting the pedal off the metal anytime soon.

    This reminds me of digital versus film.

    Film was clearly better until suddenly it wasn't.

    My Nikon gear was clearly better overall until now. Now I feel Sony is better overall. Others will say Nikon is still better.

    I think with some better software integration more people would fall onto the Sony side of that fence.

    The next generation of Sony cameras might be yet another leap forward.

    Frankly, if I were Nikon or Canon I would be more than a little concerned.

    As a consumer, I can go wherever the grass is greener so I am quite happy.

    -Bill
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    Senior Member Slingers's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I don't have a problem with his review as going in I knew he wouldn't like it as his heart has never been with Sony. There seems to be a lot of Zeiss fans moving to the A7 system and a lot of them just don't like Sony but are here for the great Loxia/Batis lenses. I don't think it's as bad as Ken Rockwell's writings but I find Rockwell's site is a good source of data. Every lens on the site is able to be compared in exactly the same way but you just have to ignore the ramblings.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Ming's review is refreshing.
    The guy bought the camera with his own money and shows us some great images he's made with it.
    He tells us what he doesn't like about the camera but also tells us why he bought it and why why he's keeping it.

    His only mistake seems to have been a little blunt and ruffled a few sensitive feathers perhaps.
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  14. #64
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    One thing I still don't get though: (nearly) everyone (including I believe yourself, if I correctly recall) has chimed in with their preference for files that are less pre-cooked and have lossless compression. But if you're not seeing the evidence of either these in any of your files, why do you care?
    Couple reasons:

    1) The principle - I think raw should be as raw as possible. The reason we choose to shoot raw is for maximum flexibility. Same reason I don't like when LR forces me to apply distortion correction to Micro 4/3 files, I don't like Sony using lossy compression

    2) Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean I wont. I've seen plenty of examples now. I'm bound to have one of my own sooner or later.

    I think most of us would prefer uncooked, lossless raw. It's just that I think most of us don't care a great deal one way or the other and think some of these issues are blown out of proportion* by some.

    Same principle applies when I shoot Nikon. I'd love if they offered 16-bit raw and didn't cook the files at all. But they offer 14-bit, and I've always been convinced they do a little cooking too. It's more subtle, but at times (with some of their sensors) there's been an unnatural dearth of color noise.

    In all these things, I prefer something even better, but I'm happy with something great.


    *Below is an example of what I mean by blown out of proportion. I think you'll recognize the author. Pink highlighting added by me to emphasize what I think of as "soft trolling". Any time a reviewer starts to pre-emptively attack "fanboys", they are (IMO) taking the low road. Isn't it better to rise above?


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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    For myself, I consider Ming to be one of the very very few photographer/reviewers whose columns I read.
    Don't trash Ming because he might have highlighted shortcomings of your camera.

    That is what good reviewers are supposed to do.

    p.s I f he seems biased towards Nikon..there is a reason. Nikon really are that good, but not without their own shortcomings.
    It is difficult to take Ming or his review seriously when he calls the A7RII a toy. His review reeks of sour grapes.
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hope they are big.
    They're like elephants, but I could reduce the weight of the full bag from around ten kilograms to around nine and a half if I change to Sony bodies. I'll consider hiring a whale to carry my gear until I can afford the annual upgrade to a new gizmo

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Most telling line in review is that "it will be replaced in a year by another consumer disposable camera" ...harsh?
    I hate to tell him this but he also will be replaced in another year or two by another disposable photographer, life is harsh especially in the photography business
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It is difficult to take Ming or his review seriously when he calls the A7RII a toy. His review reeks of sour grapes.
    For some of us, "toy" is the first word that springs to mind, and I have used it before about A7 cameras. Clearly, many see it differently, but it probably has to do with usage and whatever personal preferences one has. For me, it makes it a device that I know won't replace my existing cameras, for others, it seems to work very well also as a professional tool.

    It's interesting to notice also that Ming, like myself, was uninspired by the D800, but finds the D810 to be totally excellent. For those who only read spec sheets, they seem more or less identical. That shows how subtle changes are often needed to change mediocrity to excellence. This obviously goes for Sony too. What puzzles me is that Sony doesn't do the most obvious changes to capture the rest of the market too. But that's Sony. They go down whatever road they feel for, which is always fascinating
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For some of us, "toy" is the first word that springs to mind, and I have used it before about A7 cameras. Clearly, many see it differently, but it probably has to do with usage and whatever personal preferences one has. For me, it makes it a device that I know won't replace my existing cameras, for others, it seems to work very well also as a professional tool.

    It's interesting to notice also that Ming, like myself, was uninspired by the D800, but finds the D810 to be totally excellent. For those who only read spec sheets, they seem more or less identical. That shows how subtle changes are often needed to change mediocrity to excellence. This obviously goes for Sony too. What puzzles me is that Sony doesn't do the most obvious changes to capture the rest of the market too. But that's Sony. They go down whatever road they feel for, which is always fascinating
    So nicely put. The d800 was always a good feature box ticker, but I never loved it. We had a friendly, professional relationship that was never quite warm. The D810 was just 'right' from the get go, and we fell for each other, though I have been unfaithful from time to time.... Those a7 cameras... Their cooking isn't so refined but they sure are slimmer.
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Guys, the d810A apparently is a notch above the d810. Waiting for Ming's seal of approval?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Guys, the d810A apparently is a notch above the d810. Waiting for Ming's seal of approval?
    Not for me. Star trails scare me...

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    What puzzles me is that Sony doesn't do the most obvious changes to capture the rest of the market too. But that's Sony.
    You can say the same about every manufacturer. What is Nikon or Canon doing to capture the mirrorless market? Or Olympus, to capture the video market? And so on ...

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    You can say the same about every manufacturer. What is Nikon or Canon doing to capture the mirrorless market? Or Olympus, to capture the video market? And so on ...
    My guess when it comes to Canon and Nikon: They are waiting for the technology to mature, and has probably found that releasing new models every 12 months isn't profitable. They have both been experimenting, and if you can imagine a full frame Nikon V3, it would be a very advanced camera already. So far, I have been anticipating a launch within the 2015/16 season, at least for Nikon. Time will show

    The difference compared to things like Sony's small battery is that it wouldn't have cost them anything to develop the camera with a larger one, and they do have batteries that could be used.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    My guess when it comes to Canon and Nikon: They are waiting for the technology to mature, and has probably found that releasing new models every 12 months isn't profitable. They have both been experimenting, and if you can imagine a full frame Nikon V3, it would be a very advanced camera already. So far, I have been anticipating a launch within the 2015/16 season, at least for Nikon. Time will show

    The difference compared to things like Sony's small battery is that it wouldn't have cost them anything to develop the camera with a larger one, and they do have batteries that could be used.
    Sure, but I (like many) already own suitable batteries and don't want to replace them. And if the only issue with Sony is batteries and RAW compression (resolvable with a likely firmware update) then they are much further along the evolutionary path than Canon and Nikon, which are still stumbling towards the future facing backwards.
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII


    Toys. Nikon Df.
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Sure, but I (like many) already own suitable batteries and don't want to replace them. And if the only issue with Sony is batteries and RAW compression (resolvable with a likely firmware update) then they are much further along the evolutionary path than Canon and Nikon, which are still stumbling towards the future facing backwards.
    But you would have replaced the batteries if the new model came with a bigger, better one, so changing wouldn't have resulted in any negative impact for Sony. Not selling to those who have a need for larger batteries have.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    all those photography blogs today have more and more in common with the fashion blog world where brands are loved or hated.
    furthermore everything is welcomed what draws attention. most of this internet “experts” have build little money making empires
    out of nothing and they are keen to keep them alive.

    so it is also no suprise that most of this reviewers opinion or as ming likes to calls it “ truth” is in strong contrast
    to my experiance using this camera as a tools on a daily basis.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Ming is one of the reviewers that I have more time for and on the whole I think he hits the mark more than others. Yes this one my have been a little hurried but he seem get most of the positives and the negatives and some thing that are maybe wrong. It really takes time to get to grips with a camera like that A7rII and I personally haven't got my head around fully setting it up yet or how to get the best in PP and I have been using sony's since the A7. For example I couldn't agree more with him more on the his review of the Leica Q which I personally regard as being the best digital camera to come out of Leica so far and probably (at least for me) almost the best digital camera out there. As an aside I would encourage anyone to try and get some good Leica DNG files from the net and import them into Lr6 to see how sharp an out of camera image can be!!

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I have no reason to question your satisfaction with your camera, in daily use, as you put it.

    But on building little money making machines...what is wrong with that. See GetDPI. On the extreme top right hand corner of the landing page, you even have
    A ' donate ' link. ( I have donated, a knowing choice I made..I love this forum). But it is a choice..no? No compulsion. Click/bait..again a choice..no compulsion.

    More importantly, and to enhance my meager technological understandings, what exactly has Ming wrote in his review that is inaccurate?

    Remember, each of us brings our biases to the table. As is seen in this thread too.
    But to write and make gross tech inaccuracies renders a review..shall we say...very subjective and without any technical merit.

    So, where has Ming made these gross tech error in his review of this camera? And how many? Remember he has bought the camera. He has used it. I like his photography, much more than other so called ' reviewers '.

    And, if I may say so, he too is a working pro. And writes his reviews without the benefit of conducting seances or help from the dead.


    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    all those photography blogs today have more and more in common with the fashion blog world where brands are loved or hated.
    furthermore everything is welcomed what draws attention. most of this internet “experts” have build little money making empires
    out of nothing and they are keen to keep them alive.

    so it is also no suprise that most of this reviewers opinion or as ming likes to calls it “ truth” is in strong contrast
    to my experiance using this camera as a tools on a daily basis.
    koffee & kamera
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Well, there is no smoke without fire. I dare to think that most of us (that's kind of elitist but...) are educated enough in photography to want the best out of a tool, especially when you pull the money out for it.

    When you buy a canon 5D or Nikon or a Pentax 645Z and they say you have 14 bits datas, YOU have 14 bits datas. You do not even have to think about it. When Hasselblad or Mamyia/Phase say you have 16 bits datas, YOU have 16 bits datas. Raw integrity is at least one nodal point between pros and super serious passionate shooters. And those bits depth are linked to the hardware.

    What I found strange is that most of you here, especially the early adopters, are used to far far superior gear such as MFDB or pro DSLR. I thought for a moment that you were sticklers for the purity and quality of the files and the quality of the build. But no, I was wrong. My A7r is a present, but god, I will never buy into this, especially at this price. I find it logic when it can be used as a digital back with super live view on a view camera and stitching, because of the price, or because some have huge collections of different lenses (with no body to go with ???...) but 3200$ for it as a "pro" camera ? never, even in dream. And I have the money to take it right now with batis line. Even the menu is a nightmare one the A7r and it is not that much improved on the markII, as far as I see.

    What I see front to it, as very false argument IMHO, is "yea but you have light weight ... ho and DR and stabilisation !!!!!" Seriously guys ??

    There is no smoke without fire.

    So I understand ppl like to buy new tech and have super fun with it, like HiFi and cars and all, but please do not tell the world it is the best and can replace MFDB or whatever close to those conclusions, because credibility (as pro) vanish like hot air in a balloon.

    What should think all those photographers who have good tripod and Alpa products and Rodi lenses ?? You would tell them : "trash it all, you can do the same hand-held with this" ??? C'mon !! It is like giving a Tetley bag of tea to a Japanese traditional family and saying : "trash all your tradition, you can do the same in one minute with this".

    They will both stare at you, throwing gasoline on you and set fire while singing Turkey In the Straw.

    The best is when I read ppl that you can shoot with this camera in a way you can't before with every other camera. We bet ?? WE BET ???
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 26th August 2015 at 02:22.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I've thought some more about this and my summary is as follows:

    The A7Rii can do some things better/easier than other cameras
    The A7Rii does some other things not as good as some other cameras

    If you don't use/like/value the things it does better it might not be for you
    If you can't live with the things it does not as good as some others it might not be for you

    But if you like what it does better and can live with the tings it does worse it's a pretty nice camera

    There's no right or wrong in any of this, everybody makes those decisions for themselves based on their own needs and beliefs.
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    So, where has Ming made these gross tech error in his review of this camera?
    he is wrong in many ways but the most ridiculous point he made is about battery life he claims that he only can get 150-200 images with one battery - sorry, this is simply a lie when you turn airplain mode on i can get around 900 shots with one battery in silent mode maybe less with the regular shutter !

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post

    What I found strange is that most of you here, especially the early adopters, are used to far far superior gear such as MFDB or pro DSLR. I thought for a moment that you were sticklers for the purity and quality of the files and the quality of the build.
    I try to be, but my back and the airlines don't like that about me...

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Nothing to be sorry about. I would be extremely surprised that a reviewer would write such a ' lie '.
    I do not have any Sony cameras ( the RX 100..i do have ), so my information is based on various reports, user's inputs etc. over various forums ( I thought they were reputable until you assertion of getting ' 900 ' shots per a fully charged battery..it was fully charged, I presume? ) and numerous posts.

    But first let's start with Sony's own engineer's/Executives/marketing personnel in an interview with Thibault Ronald, who, according to himself , is part of the 'Sony Artisans of Imagery Program '...I have not ascertained the accuracy of this statement but have no reason to doubt it. Seems a grand title, though.

    Q: What about the battery life?
    A: It will be “slightly better than that of the A7R.

    Now the most that reviewers have generously said about the A7R battery life has been ' mediocre '. So according to Sony's own answers the A7RII battery life must be
    ' slightly better than ' mediocre '.

    Even with airplane mode on ( you cannot turn chips on/off..you can only disable wifi sending/receiving off/on ), your claim to get 900 shots seems in huge variance with what most observers are reporting. Is your EVF on. Are you using autofocus IBIS on/off. With what lenses are you getting this ' 900 ' shots per charge? I ask this without prejudice, because it is surprising that most users and reviewers find they get much fewer shots per a fully battery.

    I shall await your response so that I can put it to Ming directly and ask him for his explanation.

    On to other things..What else have you found that is ' wrong in many ways..' as you have stated.

    Kindest regards.

    All I can say is that
    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    he is wrong in many ways but the most ridiculous point he made is about battery life he claims that he only can get 150-200 images with one battery - sorry, this is simply a lie when you turn airplain mode on i can get around 900 shots with one battery in silent mode maybe less with the regular shutter !

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    one of my clients is a music and art university so from time to time i also shot classic concerts . i normally don't take so many images but the last concert i shot featured 11 artists.
    for me battery life was never a real problem anyway but i actually was suprised about how many images i could take with just one battery. i never used the a7r for this type of work so i have no comparison. on the a7r2 i had the the sony FE 70-200 mounted, silent mode, ibis on, i only use the viewfinder even for chimping. and i did a lot ….


    color & shadows & image quality - i would not make comments in this regard based only on experience with one raw converter

    speed - the camera is fast enough to shot fast moving musicians like violin players

    handling - i have rather large hands but this was never a problem you can make any camera imbalanced with the right lens even a sinar p3 8x10

    after reading his text a secound time i have more the impression this is a revange and not a review because he covers nothing what makes this camera superior
    to a dslr, he even talks ibis down.


    christian

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Well, there is no smoke without fire. I dare to think that most of us (that's kind of elitist but...) are educated enough in photography to want the best out of a tool, especially when you pull the money out for it.

    When you buy a canon 5D or Nikon or a Pentax 645Z and they say you have 14 bits datas, YOU have 14 bits datas. You do not even have to think about it. When Hasselblad or Mamyia/Phase say you have 16 bits datas, YOU have 16 bits datas. Raw integrity is at least one nodal point between pros and super serious passionate shooters. And those bits depth are linked to the hardware.

    What I found strange is that most of you here, especially the early adopters, are used to far far superior gear such as MFDB or pro DSLR. I thought for a moment that you were sticklers for the purity and quality of the files and the quality of the build. But no, I was wrong. My A7r is a present, but god, I will never buy into this, especially at this price. I find it logic when it can be used as a digital back with super live view on a view camera and stitching, because of the price, or because some have huge collections of different lenses (with no body to go with ???...) but 3200$ for it as a "pro" camera ? never, even in dream. And I have the money to take it right now with batis line. Even the menu is a nightmare one the A7r and it is not that much improved on the markII, as far as I see.

    What I see front to it, as very false argument IMHO, is "yea but you have light weight ... ho and DR and stabilisation !!!!!" Seriously guys ??

    There is no smoke without fire.

    So I understand ppl like to buy new tech and have super fun with it, like HiFi and cars and all, but please do not tell the world it is the best and can replace MFDB or whatever close to those conclusions, because credibility (as pro) vanish like hot air in a balloon.

    What should think all those photographers who have good tripod and Alpa products and Rodi lenses ?? You would tell them : "trash it all, you can do the same hand-held with this" ??? C'mon !! It is like giving a Tetley bag of tea to a Japanese traditional family and saying : "trash all your tradition, you can do the same in one minute with this".

    They will both stare at you, throwing gasoline on you and set fire while singing Turkey In the Straw.

    The best is when I read ppl that you can shoot with this camera in a way you can't before with every other camera. We bet ?? WE BET ???
    You would lose that bet with me.

    After nearly 50 years of photography I have had the pleasure of using nearly every Nikon since the original F. I started RF cameras with the Leica IIIa, which I still own, and worked though the M9.

    I also used plenty of high end 4/3's and m4/3's equipment. Also shot 8mm and 16mm movies and had both wonderful and awful experiences editing film stock, as anyone who has done that would understand.

    I will say, without equivocation, that the technical features of the A7r2, combined with the FF sensor and excellent glass allow me to shoot in a way I could not before with any other camera.

    Eye Detection plus long arms and a light weight FF body alone gets shots I was never able to achieve before. Flip to 4K video for a moment then over to the best 35/1.4 I have ever shot with, much less at 42 MP, and I have video, frame grabs and images previously impossible for me.

    And there is more, my Noctilux, focused perfectly and stabilized at 42 MP, is unique, in my long experience, all by itself.

    The list goes on.

    I don't doubt that photographers such as yourself find little to justify the great expense of the new Sony.

    For me, this unique combination of capabilities in such a lightweight package has allowed me to continue my photographer's journey. That is something I thought unlikely just a few months ago.

    I know the A7r2 is not the best for everyone. There are so many excellent cameras out there, how could it be?

    But the A7r2 is, hands down, the best overall camera I have ever used.

    Regards,

    Bill
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  37. #87
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Ming sent me a note and was wondering why I said what I did. I appreciate that to be honest. It was not meant as a personal attack on him but anyway I will reply tonight after my day shoot. It's actually one reviewer I actually like so I was a bit surprised by some of his comments. So I will first apologize in public than send him a nice note tonight. Okay time to put this body in full working order today. Real paying gig. LOL

    I admit to my real issue with the negative on this release , it's the worst I have seen in recent years. So some of my frustration was thrown his way. For that I'm sorry and I kept saying I should leave this thread. As a admin I should know better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Christian.

    While I do not doubt your experience, as regards the number of shots you got/get per battery charge, I do not doubt Ming's statement that he got the number of shots he got/gets with one fully charged battery, either.

    I shall reserve further comment on this subject ( re: battery life ) till I see some more data, specifically from users on this forum ( who I trust and have the said camera ). Even one of our members has mentioned the short life of the battery in his response.

    As to your comments that followed the para about battery life.: They unfortunately are just comments. Nothing more. One person's experience with the camera...yours. Just like Ming's experience. But Ming is someone who has got a record of writing reports that are viewed favorably by quite a few knowledgeable people as being generally fair and accurate.

    Nothing that actually proves gross tech errors in Ming's report. That is what I wanted from you. So far, you have not provided this.

    On the contrary, your last para seems to be a wish, on your part, that he would say something good about the camera!

    Maybe you would care to read his report a third time around. He actually praises some of the features of this camera. And please do read his responses to his reader's comments. There are plenty of answers there too.

    Best regards.



    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    one of my clients is a music and art university so from time to time i also shot classic concerts . i normally don't take so many images but the last concert i shot featured 11 artists.
    for me battery life was never a real problem anyway but i actually was suprised about how many images i could take with just one battery. i never used the a7r for this type of work so i have no comparison. on the a7r2 i had the the sony FE 70-200 mounted, silent mode, ibis on, i only use the viewfinder even for chimping. and i did a lot ….


    color & shadows & image quality - i would not make comments in this regard based only on experience with one raw converter

    speed - the camera is fast enough to shot fast moving musicians like violin players

    handling - i have rather large hands but this was never a problem you can make any camera imbalanced with the right lens even a sinar p3 8x10

    after reading his text a secound time i have more the impression this is a revange and not a review because he covers nothing what makes this camera superior
    to a dslr, he even talks ibis down.


    christian
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    The "toy"descriptor as compared to the D810 is hogwash. If Ming is beta testing the rumored Leica Q interchangeable lens version and is saying this, i am interested in the Leica camera and would like to see if it would be my money's worth.

    The stakes are already raised very high by putting down a state of the art camera!

  40. #90
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    While I try to stay out of these arguments (and I like Ming's blog) the issue about the number of shots per battery does seem a little absurd. I shot in the studio last week with the A7RII and the 55 and 35 Zeiss lenses. The shoot was of a band and then individual shots of each of the members as well as a few of smaller groups of people. There are 425 shots in my Lightroom library and I suspect I deleted a few when I did the initial processing. I have no idea how much battery life I had when I finished but I did not notice any low battery warning (if there is such a thing). While I did have two spares with me I shot the entire shoot with one battery.

    Now If I still had a 5D3 I know a I would not have felt any need to carry a spare battery. However I would have carried at least one anyway just because it's foolish not to have backup.

    Jim

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I wonder how much of the style of internet camera reviews is caused by the desire to elicit outrage and "clicks?" We're approaching a hundred posts here, and who knows how many every time Lloyd Chambers writes something snarky.

    Don't forget the saying, "Say whatever you want about me, just make sure you spell my name right."

  42. #92
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    The battery life is my least problem. If it is over 150/200 per charge, I'm very ok. What bug me is ergonomic and reliability/solidity. I would buy it if it is Pentax weather sealed for real, solid as a T-15 Armata like the Leica T and with simple/easy menus (). This is what I want at MINIMUM for 3500$. It should be carved in pure titanium at this price.

    And if there is a polemic around raws... there is certainly something about those raws. Good cameras today do not have that much press after all. The Less ppl speak about the best buy it is

    And at one time, especially for the video shooters or long exposure shooters, this huge amount of thermal past patches will need to be changed (like in computers). I had some more matter to the discussion
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    FWIW, E.J. Peiker over at naturescapes, who is always extremely tuned in to technical issues, said he's getting an average of 234 shots per charge with IBIS off, airplane mode on, using a 50/50 mix of EVF and LCD, and 2 minute sleep, and camera completely off while doing something other than shooting. About 25% worse battery life than the A7R, he said.

    He has no axe to grind with Sony, either--he is so happy with the A7RII's rendering of landscapes, particularly fine distant details, that he will no longer use the D810 for landscapes.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Ming sent me a note and was wondering why I said what I did. I appreciate that to be honest. It was not meant as a personal attack on him but anyway I will reply tonight after my day shoot. It's actually one reviewer I actually like so I was a bit surprised by some of his comments. So I will first apologize in public than send him a nice note tonight. Okay time to put this body in full working order today. Real paying gig. LOL

    I admit to my real issue with the negative on this release , it's the worst I have seen in recent years. So some of my frustration was thrown his way. For that I'm sorry and I kept saying I should leave this thread. As a admin I should know better
    I have to agree with you Guy, this camera release was a strange one indeed, even for Sony. ReviewMania, at its best?

    I haven't fully decided where I come down on the A7RII camera yet because I haven't done more than hold one. I didn't even fire the shutter. I can say the grip is more ergonomic to my hand than the small-bricks-with-tootsie-roll glued on feeling my A7R and A7S have. Why not? Because I already made up my mind there is no way I can give up four stops of higher ISO for the work I do. For me, my A7S right now is the perfectly balanced camera.

    When the A7S Mark II comes out though, I'll likely be first in that pre-order line.

    With that said, I am close to many who are using the A7R II and really love it. I'm also blessed in living just over the hill, seven miles from Samy's Camera and their Fairfax headquarters location. For those not familiar with the camera dealers in LA, Samy's is the largest West Coast camera dealer, who positively RULES cameras sold in Southern California. So we always get the same kind of major market introduction attention NYC gets, sometimes earlier, sometimes later. In the case of the A7R II, it was a couple weeks later.

    But that doesn't mean we didn't get the same quality. The Samy's introduction featured Sony Interchangeable Cameras USA Product Manager Kenta Honjo, Sony Senior Technical Representative Rob Shelley, and my good friend Orange County, California Wedding and Portrait Photographer Paul Gero. Paul is one of the Sony Artisan of Imagery shooters, so is partially sponsored by Sony and paid to do these presentations I would expect. Paul also got his camera when first available, and has been using it in his busy Wedding and Portrait business this past month.

    I felt since I was invited to the introduction, why not take my A7S along with my 35mm 'Cron and film it. Many of the subjects being brought up and discussed here on GetDPI are also subjects that came up in questions from the audience in this largest camera introduction in Samy's history. They didn't use the big classroom for this one, they used the entire first floor of the building! They did three (3) one and a half hour sessions over the afternoon. The information was so good, I filmed the third and final one. NOBODY I spoke with afterwords was sorry they invested the time to come and see this presentation.

    I've cut the edit down to 33:00, which is long for a video I normally do, but I felt the value of the material they were demonstrating how to use and the questions they were answering - as Sony employees, the "horses mouth" so to speak - was worth the running time. The link for those interested in watching is here:

    Sony A7R II: From The Experts At Samys - The Camera Forum®

    I learned a lot from this, hope many of you do as well. Uncompressed RAW is coming, just nobody is sure or is saying, exactly when. The target is 16 bit too, though again nobody is saying much more than that. Will be a backward looking firmware upgrade or a whole new hardware version? I expect the latter, given the normal Sony method of introducing new features only on new models. Sony is a consumer electronics manufacturer. You get the benefit in a less expensive cost, but pay the price in needing to purchase newly developed features and upgrades.

    Oh, and don't shoot the messenger here guys, I'm just the DP on this one
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    So, this is one of those arguments where everyone is kind of right.

    Those who say that the A7R II (and all the A7 cameras) are less refined and intuitive than the best DSLRs and that Sony doesn’t provide professional photographers with the support they want are correct.

    Those who say that the A7 cameras are already better than the best DSLRs in a number of departments, almost as good in several others and not as good in a few more are also correct.

    Funny thing is even with Canon and Nikon (and Leica and Panasonic and Olympus) producing great new cameras you still find mostly everyone (including those who really, really hate Sony) spending most of their time here talking about Sony! Sony must be doing something right.

    As I said much earlier in this thread, Ming lists all the things he dislikes about the A7R II but then admits that he bought it for all the things that it does that he needs.

    Let’s face it, that’s a positive review.
    Regards,
    John
    Sony fanboy, shamelessly shilling for "the man" since 2010.

  46. #96
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by spence View Post
    FWIW, E.J. Peiker over at naturescapes, who is always extremely tuned in to technical issues, said he's getting an average of 234 shots per charge with IBIS off, airplane mode on, using a 50/50 mix of EVF and LCD, and 2 minute sleep, and camera completely off while doing something other than shooting. About 25% worse battery life than the A7R, he said.

    He has no axe to grind with Sony, either--he is so happy with the A7RII's rendering of landscapes, particularly fine distant details, that he will no longer use the D810 for landscapes.
    That chimes very accurately with what I m seeing.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    On a gig right now just hit 325 with 20 percent or so to go. Been shooting 4 hours now. I use a Watson dual charger that gives me a percent of charging. I'm wondering about folks chargers if there not filling them up all the way. I got review in and all that too. I seriously get better battery life than what's being reported.

    I do run my batteries down to.

    Now the whole battery does not mean much to me. I carry 5 now and I never get even close to using them. I'll finish this job about 500 or so images and I'll use maybe 1.5. Beats changing film. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That chimes very accurately with what I m seeing.
    well, so as i know for sure i do not write fiction i ask myself what can cause the great difference in performance others see
    here are a some ideas, what do you think ?

    1. i did shot the 900 frames in about 3 hours, maybe the "on" time plays a more important roll than the image count ?
    2. could it be that the camera only uses the IS in the 70-200 lens and this needs less power than IBIS ?
    3. do different SD card brands / types have a different power consumption do faster cards need more power for example ?
    4. i had lens correction turned off is this also a factor ?
    5. wifi and remote control was off too
    6. does silent mode need less power ?
    7. pre af was off


    christian

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    [QUOTE=Guy Mancuso;656918]On a gig right now just hit 325 with 20 percent or so to go. Been shooting 4 hours now.

    That seems about right. The 425 I shot was in a very limited period of time (maybe 90 minutes) with little or no chimping on a shot by shot basis. Once I was dialed in I really didn't need to check but occasionally. I suspect the short duration of the shoot combined with little chimping got me that number but 300+ seems very doable.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I did some battery comparisons, based on data provided by CIPA and the manufacturers themselves...as gathered on the Internet.

    Between the A7RII battery ( beilieve it is usable in all Sony A7 series ), and the battery used in the Nikon D810 ( also used in quite a few other Nikons ).

    It has been repeatedly said that the Sony batteries are small.

    I checked the weight of one Sony battery. I also checked the weight of one Nikon D810 battery.

    I also checked their rated capacities and estimated shots per a fully charged battery.

    Why don't you folks check it for yourselves. Ten minutes maximum. Go to B&H and get the specs. Or spend a little more time and check what each manufacturer states.

    You might be pleasantly ( or otherwise ) surprised.


    Chuck, thanks for that video. I watched it over dinner. Learnt a lot.

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