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Thread: An interesting Review of a7rII

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    Member stephen.s1's Avatar
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    An interesting Review of a7rII

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I disagree with a lot of it and he is wrong on several points. Another who cares review. I'm actually a bit surprised. He usually is pretty good. Does not even know you can tether in C1.

    I have found many reasons in the last week not to read any of these and honestly I'm a much better person for not reading them. It's the worst reportage of any camera that has come to light recently. It tarnishes my lifelong career in this industry as the integrity level sank to a new low. I'm speaking in general terms. I'm going out and shoot a new test.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Seriously I'm going out and buy a white sharpie pen and change the S to a 8
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by stephen.s1 View Post
    What I took away from this was that someone who really doesn't like Sony cameras gave it grudging acceptance as a very good solution to a lot of photographic situations. After all, when you actually buy the camera you can't really hate it that much.
    Regards,
    John
    Sony fanboy, shamelessly shilling for "the man" since 2010.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I disagree with a lot of it and he is wrong on several points. Another who cares review. I'm actually a bit surprised. He usually is pretty good. Does not even know you can tether in C1.

    I have found many reasons in the last week not to read any of these and honestly I'm a much better person for not reading them. It's the worst reportage of any camera that has come to light recently. It tarnishes my lifelong career in this industry as the integrity level sank to a new low. I'm speaking in general terms. I'm going out and shoot a new test.
    Put yourself in his shoes. How dare Sony use a new sensor on its own camera instead handing it over to Nikon?

    It must be hurting real bad.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Tend to agree John. It seems what always is left out is the ability to use almost any brand lens you can imagine on a Sony mount. It's a huge plus that rarely gets mentioned. Its one of the biggest attributes of the camera
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Put yourself in his shoes. How dare Sony use a new sensor on its own camera instead handing it over to Nikon?

    It must be hurting real bad.
    Nikon is not going to see this sensor for at least another year IMHO.


    To all our members. I would like to say I'm sorry for my lack of excitement reading these reviews. But most of them have hit a low that really bugs me to no end. I'm not a fanboy either but I like the system and I enjoy shooting it . I'm not defending Sony in any way , yes some things need better answers and solutions. I get that in total but this is a system that's not one of the big guns in the industry and it's painfully obvious many don't want it to be.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I think it's a pretty fair review - he knows the great majority of its strengths and weaknesses and admits that the combination of electronic first curtain and IBIS outweigh the compression problems. He is IMHO bullseye accurate about the pre-cooking and what it does to texture. He couldn't be more right about the messed up menu system if he tried.

    In fact I can't see anything in there significant to me with which I disagree.

    I've been thinking about this a lot these past 24 hours since I was alerted to, tested for and found the focus issues with the 24-70: the troubling thing about the camera is that it has so much going on, in so many opaquely interdependent ways, that half the time you're just not sure what it's up to. And I don't think that's just a learning curve thing; I think it's a culture of tackling image capture challenges with more and more gizmos, each of which is great but which, taken together, remind me of one of those 90's Sony VCRs covered in metallic stickers with a vast and shouty feature set that in the end you never quite understood. Worse, the way these gizmos interact is littered with unintentional consequences that often manifest as either operational inefficiencies or confusions (max magnified view in pure MF, anyone?) or as things that genuinely detract from what the sensor might otherwise be able to offer (pre-cooking and compression.)

    Unlike Ming, I'll be keeping mine though. I happen to really like some of the glass and I really like the small form factor, even if you do have to carry more batteries. And because I am doing some 4K video stuff at the moment, that matters a lot too. But it's a camera that succeeds on the back of Canikon's misjudgement of the market as much as it does on its own merits.

    Capable? Hell yeah. As good as it should be? Nowhere near.

    A word on Ming: he's my favourite reviewer these days. He is very, very smart, has an eagle eye, and best of all, is the only big name reviewer whose work as an actual photographer I rate really highly.
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    As good as it should be? Nowhere near.
    How can you be sure? It is a Sony, after all.
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Most telling line in review is that "it will be replaced in a year by another consumer disposable camera" ...harsh?
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I disagree with a lot of it and he is wrong on several points. Another who cares review. I'm actually a bit surprised. He usually is pretty good. Does not even know you can tether in C1.

    I have found many reasons in the last week not to read any of these and honestly I'm a much better person for not reading them. It's the worst reportage of any camera that has come to light recently. It tarnishes my lifelong career in this industry as the integrity level sank to a new low. I'm speaking in general terms. I'm going out and shoot a new test.
    I like you Guy but I agrea with Ming even if I do not like him as I like you (that sound complicated but you got it).

    When Ming say
    ...it just feels like a consumer electronic device in operation, something designed for anoraks by anoraks, not a camera...
    I completely agree with him. The camera pack enormous capability but I wouldn't cry if I crash it, at all, as I wouldn't cry if I crash my A7r. So far I think today engineers might be efficient at doing things but completely miss the point of what is a camera. The elders ones from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax/Canon got it right and probably reached the pinnacle of camera design : The SLR. The Germans reached pinnacle of plane design many decades ago and the today most advanced planes use this design (not a new).

    This is a disposable consumer tool, nothing more, nothing less... until they put this sensor in an Alpha A mount camera (or a Nikon but I think Nikon got the message and go back to old friend Renesas, for the good of photography and business agreements ).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Most telling line in review is that "it will be replaced in a year by another consumer disposable camera" ...harsh?
    Maybe yea, but so true ...

    What I also see and, IMHO, stink a bit, is the testing phase of Sony gear. While Nikon/Canon and others delegate a camera to an individual, Sony organize a meeting with all "selected" reviewers. Quickly after, it is the review war (to tell exactly the same thing). Two weeks after real release it is individual review wars. The pattern I see (who stink a bit) is that if you are a reviewer and say bad things about the product, you might be very booted for another sony testing orgy, next year. You have ppl who say "it is the best, click here to buy it" and the ones who say "it is the best because I wanna be invited next year and thus, will have plenty of audience ya know ...".

    Call me foul but this device is nowhere near to be the best 35mm camera ever made on this planet. Stating that is pretty bold and opinionated, and might be dangerous for a reputation. A wise statement would be more tempered like "this camera pack the best actual techno/science and that can be a good or/and a bad thing at some levels".

    Also, if I'm not wrong, the A7r2 does have absolutely NO weather sealing at all (someone should tell Lula Staff before it go Antarctica). Weather sealing mean ... pentax to start with ?

    https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Sony...eardown/45597#
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 25th August 2015 at 07:09. Reason: Testing
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I like you too but we need to remember as well there are a lot of very capable well established Pros shooting these Sony systems and more joining it everyday. Cameras are disposable its been that way since the first digital camera. There is no changing that fact, change of sensor requires change of body been that way since I started digital back in 1990. We are a disposable culture . The days of having anything past 5 years is rare. Look at computers, no one has one 5 years. You get my meaning.

    Anyway I can just read through his bias and that part is obvious. Reviewers should be more neutral also some should not be calling Sony out in public to change there ways. Really who the heck does he think he is. Not Ming here but you can guess. I'm just having a real issue with reviewers on this announcement, maybe it's me. Don't know . Sony is not perfect by any stretch but everyone else is sitting on there *** as well. At least they are innovating , they deserve that credit.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    We are a disposable culture
    I'm not buying into this, especially in photography. You know, when I will buy my first MF (instead of renting it), whatever money I have in the wallet, it will be a film camera (like Fuji GF 670 / or brand new RZpro2), a Nikon 9000 and a jobo processor, because I want a true 6x7 sensor with the quality of film >> so film. My opinion is that when a photographer want to go into serious studies or art, the best way in 2015 stay FILM. Electronic files are so fragile, media's are changing sooooo quickly. A film can be scanned, duplicated and stored forever safely far from your home and will never need a raw converter or whatever things to be "seen", even in a century (if stored with love).

    It is always extremely complicated to express his own opinion to the mass. It is maybe because of internet and all should be quick/patterned asap. I think reviewers/testers should be neutral and write PDF review/test of the gear instead of opening it to the crowd.

    I agree. Sony is innovating, like Minolta back in the days. But there is, I think, a VERY good reason others aren't innovating that much

    PS: The D810 pack some little but serious innovations for a 35mm DSLR no ?
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    My initial reaction was to think Ming was envious of how much traffic Diglloyd has been getting lately .


    In all seriousness though, I think Ming Thein's review boils down to this:

    “Sadly, the A7RII is not a camera that gives me any pleasure to shoot at the moment, and it bothers me that I cannot put my finger on exactly why. Logically, it ticks all the boxes. Yet it does not inspire goad you on…”


    This was my reply on his site, after quoting that line:

    "I’ve had this feeling at times with one camera or another. For a pro, I imagine that there are cameras which bring enough practical value/function to be worthwhile even when the connection isn’t there. For an enthusiast like me, that just isn’t the case. No connection, no purchase. Luckily, I feel very connected to my A7RII. It definitely goads me on to get out and shoot.

    My only real complaint is the battery life, but I can make do with two chargers and 3 batteries."


    His reply:

    "Well, if they do the job and don’t get in the way, it’s possible to fall in love with them in a sort of rational way eventually…like Stockholm syndrome. The D800E doesn’t inspire me or give me any joy, but it’s still around and used regularly three years on. "
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Though I find Ming Thein and Lloyd Chambers obnoxious, I have to say that read like a balanced review. I have taken many great pictures with my A7 and I love the 35mm 2.8 Sonnar, but I just cannot have an emotional connection with that camera because you cannot help feel that it was designed by a consumer electronics company. That's partly why I have stayed away from any further upgrades. Ergonomically, I think the SLR design is the peak of camera design and that's why I remain a die hard fan of the A99 despite its weak AF capability. The A99 did not succeed because it was marketed by a consumer electronics company trying to sell professional camera gear (in addition to some startling design flaws); that said, even after many years of its release, no one else is offering the package of features and handling that the A99 offers. Choosing any camera system will require compromises and since not having an EVF, an articulating screen, and a full frame sensor are non-starters for me, I will continue to accept the compromises in buying Sony cameras.

    Though modern cameras are electronic products, they are not disposable if made right, and when made right, we consider them classics. The Canon 5D MKI&II, Nikon D700, and (maybe Sony A99) were products that were cameras first and electronic products second, that will go down as legendary cameras in the lore of photographic equipment. I cannot say the same of any emount cameras other than perhaps the Sony A7 and the initial NEX cameras simply because they were the first of their kind.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    He is IMHO bullseye accurate about the pre-cooking and what it does to texture.
    This one I think boils down to bad ACR support for the sensor. Just like ACR does weird things with X-Trans.

    I believe the raw is pre-cooked, I'd rather it weren't, and that could be the cause of the texture you are referencing, but I think this texture can be avoided in a raw processor-dependent manner.

    If I had to use Lightroom, I'd be much less satisfied with A7RII image quality.
    Last edited by Amin; 25th August 2015 at 08:31.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    The only reason for reading third party reviews, if you already own the camera, is

    1. You are so insecure that you are unable to rely upon your own judgement from using the camera; or

    2. To find out about hidden or little used features of the camera.

    I find the latter useful, but frankly, i couldn't care less whether Ming Thein does or does not like the A7RII. Do you?
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    With this review Ming Thein confirmed his bias. Enough said.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    The only reason for reading third party reviews, if you already own the camera, is

    1. You are so insecure that you are unable to rely upon your own judgement from using the camera; or

    2. To find out about hidden or little used features of the camera.

    I find the latter useful, but frankly, i couldn't care less whether Ming Thein does or does not like the A7RII. Do you?

    I think there are others - it's interesting to see how someone responds to this or that, how it differs from one's own perspective, nits they discover, etc. Do I care if he likes the camera? No.
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    Member Zlatko Batistich's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Unlike Ming, I'll be keeping mine though.
    Ming is keeping his too. That's what I gathered from the paragraph that begins with "I put up with it because ..." He likes the IBIS, the Zeiss lenses, and the size. It's also on his recommended gear list.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Thein
    Sadly, the A7RII is not a camera that gives me any pleasure to shoot at the moment, and it bothers me that I cannot put my finger on exactly why. Logically, it ticks all the boxes. Yet it does not inspire goad you on…
    Quote Originally Posted by arize84 View Post
    ... I just cannot have an emotional connection with that camera because you cannot help feel that it was designed by a consumer electronics company.

    Do you see what you and Ming both did there with your pronouns? You can't connect to the camera, so we can't help feel a certain way? No, you can't connect, so you can't help feel a certain way.

    I felt an immediate connection to my A7RII. I think Sony has a lot of Minolta DNA and knows cameras and lenses very well .
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    For myself, I consider Ming to be one of the very very few photographer/reviewers whose columns I read.
    Don't trash Ming because he might have highlighted shortcomings of your camera.

    That is what good reviewers are supposed to do.

    p.s I f he seems biased towards Nikon..there is a reason. Nikon really are that good, but not without their own shortcomings.
    koffee & kamera
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    Member Zlatko Batistich's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    If Ming's review is too heavy and serious, here is a lighter point of view (for giggles only) https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=171&v=W-8161dWtvI

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    The only reason for reading third party reviews, if you already own the camera, is

    1. You are so insecure that you are unable to rely upon your own judgement from using the camera; or

    2. To find out about hidden or little used features of the camera.

    I find the latter useful, but frankly, i couldn't care less whether Ming Thein does or does not like the A7RII. Do you?
    Me neither.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    This one I think boils down to bad ACR support for the sensor. Just like ACR does weird things with X-Trans.

    I believe the raw is pre-cooked, I'd rather it weren't, and that could be the cause of the texture you are referencing, but I think this texture can be avoided in a raw processor-dependent manner.

    If I had to use Lightroom, I'd be much less satisfied with A7RII image quality.
    If it is precooked it is precooked. Do you believe of any that isn't?

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I pretty much feel the same way Ming does about the Sony and share a lot of his thoughts on it.

    Doesn't mean it's bashing a camera but it's not something I'd touch for reasons I've said a few times on here before. (So no point repeating the same crap).
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Chris you have your opinion and we respect that . I have a hard time respecting this kind of nonsense

    Ming:
    after all of this you still want to buy one (and haven’t already) and use one of my links, they are below. Be sure to order extra batteries too; I’ve currently got ten and three chargers because I can shoot through six or more of them in a day; the rest are needed as a buffer in case I can’t charge all of them overnight.


    Guy:
    Really so when I am out banging 3 to 4 thousand images doing runway on less than 4 batterys you obviously must be shooting what. 6 thousand images in a day. What is he doing charging his car. Most ridiculous comment I read. I never ever got to six in a day, hell never been past four and I shoot 15 thousand image in 3 to 4 days doing runway.

    Next quote. Ming
    I suspect that given sufficient time, I may come to respect this thing in a rational way – like the original D800E


    Guy:
    So your obviously being irrational on the topic and BTW Ming the D800 had serious AF issue that got swept under the carpet. I mean serious ones.

    Im sorry this is a joke looking for google hits. I read this stuff my antenna starts flashing Bullshit. This is just from one paragraph. Do this guys actually think we are dumb asses.

    Thats it Im done , I am a admin here and with all due respect i am out of these discussions , as I can rip these reviews to shreds. Most of them they had the camera less than a day. If you folks knew the back end of owning forums and blogs its all about the google hits , its all about who can say the worst things because people want to read the worst things. Hopefully you are getting a idea of what i am saying without me spelling it all out. MONEY

    I should not even post this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Ming's reviews are personal statements, which is good, but one has to know his preferences to relate his views to reality. Far too many reviewers write what they think a camera will be like to an average user that they haven't met. I happen mostly to agree with him, but when it comes to this camera, I guess that's not a surprise to members of this forum. I've just bought two new camera bags that are perfect for my antiquated DSLR bodies and lenses

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Ming's reviews are personal statements, which is good, but one has to know his preferences to relate his views to reality. Far too many reviewers write what they think a camera will be like to an average user that they haven't met. I happen mostly to agree with him, but when it comes to this camera, I guess that's not a surprise to members of this forum. I've just bought two new camera bags that are perfect for my antiquated DSLR bodies and lenses
    Hope they are big.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thats it Im done , I am a admin here and with all due respect i am out of these discussions , as I can rip these reviews to shreds. Most of them they had the camera less than a day. If you folks knew the back end of owning forums and blogs its all about the google hits , its all about who can say the worst things because people want to read the worst things. Hopefully you are getting a idea of what i am saying without me spelling it all out. MONEY

    I should not even post this

    There's something to this. On one level, all cameras today are really excellent and, in the right hands, can produce superb results. We know that to get traffic and money, one has to have a shtick. That can be every new camera and lens is the new wow. best. ever. Or it can be a grouchy shtick where one likes to pick on certain issues or brands. Truly balanced reviewers aren't gonna do too well in getting word of mouth. Oh well, is what it is, don't let your blood pressure go high over it.
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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Completely unrelated but I love you all regardless of your camera choices.

    <hugs>
    Chris Giles Photography
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Do this guys actually think we are dumb asses.

    :
    I believe they do. "Smart" and "eagle eyed" and all that.

  32. #32
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Hi,

    My main interest in cameras is actually making images. I gladly acknowledge quite a few issues with the A7r, but if it delivers the images I want, I will be quite happy.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I disagree with a lot of it and he is wrong on several points. Another who cares review. I'm actually a bit surprised. He usually is pretty good. Does not even know you can tether in C1.

    I have found many reasons in the last week not to read any of these and honestly I'm a much better person for not reading them. It's the worst reportage of any camera that has come to light recently. It tarnishes my lifelong career in this industry as the integrity level sank to a new low. I'm speaking in general terms. I'm going out and shoot a new test.
    Homepage: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Completely unrelated but I love you all regardless of your camera choices.

    <hugs>
    We love you to my friend. Maybe this is why I never went full circle on reviews. I do them for me and share with you folks. And I love our debates but when the **** starts throwing around the room. My Italian comes to life. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatko Batistich View Post
    Ming is keeping his too. That's what I gathered from the paragraph that begins with "I put up with it because ..." He likes the IBIS, the Zeiss lenses, and the size. It's also on his recommended gear list.
    I came away with that same impression. That is high praise for the A7RII, in a way-- despite Ming's litany of complaints, he's keeping it.

    Like you said, much of that has to do with the IBIS and high quality lenses. He clearly states that the RAW compression/pre-cooking concerns are outweighed by the focus precision and extra stops you gain with the IBIS, vs. a combo like the D810 + Otus, so that using a significantly lower ISO for a shot with the A7RII becomes a viable option.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    My main interest in cameras is actually making images. I gladly acknowledge quite a few issues with the A7r, but if it delivers the images I want, I will be quite happy.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Erik really thats the bottom line. Im shooting it Professionally and i have the most to lose if its a screw up because it may involve me messing up a paid gig. Thats deadly but on the other hand I like shooting it, willing to do the workarounds and certainly willing to figure stuff out with folks and come up with the best answers and most of that come from folks like you, that care about it and enjoy shooting it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    There's something to this. On one level, all cameras today are really excellent and, in the right hands, can produce superb results. We know that to get traffic and money, one has to have a shtick. That can be every new camera and lens is the new wow. best. ever. Or it can be a grouchy shtick where one likes to pick on certain issues or brands. Truly balanced reviewers aren't gonna do too well in getting word of mouth. Oh well, is what it is, don't let your blood pressure go high over it.
    Ken Rockwell has his stick and he has made a great living at it. One thing about him though you know the stick going in. So its entertaining at least.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I think Ken is very smart.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    This one I think boils down to bad ACR support for the sensor. Just like ACR does weird things with X-Trans.

    I believe the raw is pre-cooked, I'd rather it weren't, and that could be the cause of the texture you are referencing, but I think this texture can be avoided in a raw processor-dependent manner.

    If I had to use Lightroom, I'd be much less satisfied with A7RII image quality.
    Yeah, about that...

    I've had and used both for years now. All my medium format stuff is in C1 as are tens of thousands of other images, often from cameras that C1 supports first or stuff where I've tried both, or where the tethering seemed easier, whatever. One is never truly truly deeply expert with any of them. And for sure, with many cameras, there is a tiny and sometimes not so tiny benefit to one over the other and that one is, more often than not, Capture One. I don't like using it because over the years it has done some horrible things to me (once losing my LCCs in an upgrade, for example, which was a real bummer) and because it has also, over the years, littered my various hard drives with files in all sorts of unexpected places and even now, refuses (yeah I know I could hunt down and trash some preferences file) to export to any folder other than one I specified years ago, even though I keep on deleting it. So from a usability and DAM and pure reliability point of view, my great great preference is LR even if C1 might have the edge on pure RAW decoding in some circumstances.

    Generally it isn't enough of an edge for me to worry about but sometimes I will use it for a stage one RAW decode with all options off, then export to LR for finishing and DAM and for LR printing, which is often very useful.

    So of course I have tried this with the Sony files and the files do indeed, out of the can, look better in C1.

    85% (roughly) of the reason they look better in C1 is that C1 has, IMHO and for my purposes, less useful sharpening than LR. It seems to have a crude unsharp mask system and in my hands at least, is not as useful for sharpening fine detail - which is really needed with the current state of the art in high mp sensors and very sharp lenses. Another 5% of the benefit is the quite bland profiling, a nice place to start but not to end up.

    If I use C1 to export to 16bit Prophoto tiff with no sharpening, corrections or NR and then I import to LR and get the file where I want it in terms of sharpening and NR and profiling, there is almost no benefit remaining.

    What I can say with 100% certainty for my own satisfaction is that the orange peel effect is there in C1 as well. It would probably be slightly less pronounced, if one were able to level the playing field which, because of import profiling one cannot do, but it is still there.

    Now in many, probably most, cases it doesn't matter. But orange peel it is, and orange peel it stays, and whatever concoction of pre-cooking and compression is responsible for it, C1 is not a magic wand that makes it disappear other, largely, than through low default sharpening and high default NR.

    D810 files have a little peel too, if pushed around, but you have to push. With the RII I see it all the time and despite the fact that it generally doesn't matter, like Canon banding, I know it is there...
    Last edited by tashley; 25th August 2015 at 12:09.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Completely unrelated but I love you all regardless of your camera choices.

    <hugs>
    Thank God for Brighton and the people who live therein....
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I think he raises some valid points, and I have absolutely no problem with that. I also have no problem with the fact he doesn't "connect" with the camera, I think we all have experienced that with some camera's we have owned.
    However the way he is doing it as well as his incomplete knowledge of the camera and its options undermines his credibility.
    He talks about how Sony fanboys shouldn't read it because they might not like his conclusions. I think that's a very unprofessional (and childish) thing to say for a professional photographer and reviewer.
    My Pics
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think he raises some valid points, and I have absolutely no problem with that. I also have no problem with the fact he doesn't "connect" with the camera, I think we all have experienced that with some camera's we have owned.
    However the way he is doing it as well as his incomplete knowledge of the camera and its options undermines his credibility.
    He talks about how Sony fanboys shouldn't read it because they might not like his conclusions. I think that's a very unprofessional (and childish) thing to say for a professional photographer and reviewer.
    Well said and thats what my takeaway was. It was just unprofessional and sounded like he knew very little of the unit itself and the supporting images really do not speak of the cameras abilities either. The word I keep going back to is Integrity , you want to be a review person you have to show integrity . Like something or not thats okay but never talk down to people and never give bad data.

    And I said I will stay out of this and I should. But I hope folks understand where I am coming from as a user,a Pro that uses it, a forum owner and someone that truly cares about the industry. It does get frustrating for me but Im fine and getting ready for a gig tomorrow and packing everything up. Lets see if this thing can come home with the goods, I have no doubt it will.

    BTW no offense to Ming or any of the other reviewers( I actually like Mings reports normally). Im just being critical
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    1991 Pinatubo explosion

    I should not even post this
    I think every reviewer who is on the web actually are doing it for money and money only. Thom Hogan seems to be more human than others because he dare to say:

    "Thom takes the month of August off from the Internet and email to rejuvenate, to spend some time shooting, and to get rid of some of his snarl".

    That said, reviewers we found "serious" in the past are not that serious after all. Ken Rockwell is the king, one king to rule them all. No forum, no waste of time bickering, only one initial argumentation... what else ?
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Damnit I never been paid. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Damnit I never been paid. ROTFLMAO
    Me neither, and I stopped because I became a free help desk!
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  45. #45
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I can't be bothered with affiliate links with my ones.

    I get a little from offering the raw files out though. Takes the edge off the gear I purchase by about 2%
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    For myself, I consider Ming to be one of the very very few photographer/reviewers whose columns I read.
    Don't trash Ming because he might have highlighted shortcomings of your camera.

    That is what good reviewers are supposed to do.

    p.s I f he seems biased towards Nikon..there is a reason. Nikon really are that good, but not without their own shortcomings.
    He also says the D800 is a joyless work machine that only goes out on assignment.

    Let's be honest: most reviews of this camera have been gushing to say the least. But the occasional "honest take" from somebody who knows cameras and photography very well draws personal attacks.

    What's up with the Sony police?

    Lot's of people think my M9 is pretty silly, but I don't feel the need to challenge their motivations and character. Usually

    It's pretty easy to come up with a list of why the camera is awesome, and another why it's lacking. That makes it interesting. I'm not excited by it, but I enjoy the enthusiasm of my friends who are over the moon about it. And I enjoy their images
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  47. #47
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    85% (roughly) of the reason they look better in C1 is that C1 has, IMHO and for my purposes, less useful sharpening than C1. It seems to have a crude unsharp mask system and in my hands at least, is not as useful for sharpening fine detail - which is really needed with the current state of the art in high mp sensors and very sharp lenses. Another 5% of the benefit is the quite bland profiling, a nice place to start but not to end up.
    You lost me here after you said C1 has less useful sharpening than C1. Which one of those was supposed to be LR?


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    What I can say with 100% certainty for my own satisfaction is that the orange peel effect is there in C1 as well... But orange peel it is, and orange peel it stays, and whatever concoction of pre-cooking and compression is responsible for it, C1 is not a magic wand that makes it disappear other, largely, than through low default sharpening and high default NR.
    Please show it to me in a C1 processed crop and let me know the settings you used, because I can only see it in LR.
    Last edited by Amin; 25th August 2015 at 11:23.

  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    I just saw it in the sony threads of Joes butterfly and i am not seeing that effect in C1

    Joe Im posting your 100 percent crop, I think this the orange peel.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    this is a Batis 85 with extension tubes at 100 percent handheld but more important that effect is not there in C1. The bottom image is a very very aggressive sharpening in C1 ( I WOULD NOT GO THIS HIGH NORMALLY). Im not perfectly in focus but that has no effect on the background.
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: An interesting Review of a7rII

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Let's be honest: most reviews of this camera have been gushing to say the least. But the occasional "honest take" from somebody who knows cameras and photography very well draws personal attacks.

    What's up with the Sony police?
    Nothing really I think. As I mentioned above it's not what he says on the camera (which most people can buy into) but how he says it, especially the third sentence is just there as click bait to get traffic rather then anything a serious reviewer should get involved with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    this is a Batis 85 with extension tubes at 100 percent handheld but more important that effect is not there in C1
    What ISO are those shots Guy?

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