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Thread: A7RII DxOmarked

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    A7RII DxOmarked

    The thing that jumps out at me is the relatively high DR at high ISO. Basically a 1-stop advantage over the A7II and D810 once you pass ISO 1600:




    Link: Nikon D810 versus Sony A7 II versus Sony A7R II - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    SNR differences look to be very modest, and it's clear that Sony is cooking the RAWs to achieve the results at the highest ISOs (otherwise the curve wouldn't change directions like that):

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    The thing that jumps out at me is the relatively high DR at high ISO. Basically a 1-stop advantage over the A7II and D810 once you pass ISO 1600:

    Link: Nikon D810 versus Sony A7 II versus Sony A7R II - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark
    Yes indeed. The A7rII gives us great DR at the ISO's where it's needed most.

    The fact that its low light sensitivity approaches the A7s is mind blowing.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    SNR differences look to be very modest, and it's clear that Sony is cooking the RAWs to achieve the results at the highest ISOs (otherwise the curve wouldn't change directions like that):

    ]
    Amin, What do you mean by "cooking"? I ask because I am looking at what cooling does to S/R ratios of a CMOS sensor and it is amazing.

    There might be more possibilities than you assume what might be happening.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    I was referring to some kind of noise reduction being applied. Point taken about other possibilities. Regardless of the cause, I'm psyched about the resulting image quality!

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Dual conversion gain in the sensor. Jim Kasson linked, a while back, after his own measurements had shown comparable results, to this solution. At iso 640 and above, the conversion gain is changed, improving the dynamic range by approximately 1 stop. Same solution is used in the a7s, although there the gain is switched at a higher iso value
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Yeah, very nifty technology, Sony picked that up from Aptina, IIRC.

    So at low ISO, A7RII is very good, but not the ultimate DR machine like the D810 is, but the Sony has a decent advantage at higher ISOs. Sony has built a pretty great all-arounder, it seems.

    What do the slight to moderate color sensitivity advantages (5 points with CIE-050, 2 points at CIE-A) signify, in real world shooting, anyone know?

    spence
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Who's left in the big reviewers for the new camera? Dpreview, imaging-resorce, any others?

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    SNR differences look to be very modest, and it's clear that Sony is cooking the RAWs to achieve the results at the highest ISOs (otherwise the curve wouldn't change directions like that):

    You forgot to include the Fuji S3, introduced in 2004. It's nice to know that Sony is catching up though

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Maybe I don't know how to read the chart properly, but it appears to me the Nikon D810 remains king of DR by almost a full stop over the A7rII -- or am I missing something? Granted, at over ISO 400 the Sony shows about a 1-stop advantage, but that is already heavily trimmed both cams base ISO DR significantly...
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Maybe I don't know how to read the chart properly, but it appears to me the Nikon D810 remains king of DR by almost a full stop over the A7rII -- or am I missing something? Granted, at over ISO 400 the Sony shows about a 1-stop advantage, but that is already heavily trimmed both cams base ISO DR significantly...
    Amen Jack. I've been discreetly trying to hint at this, but not making any friends....
    Last edited by tashley; 27th August 2015 at 23:06.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Sure the A7rII delivers impressive results!

    But actually I am kind of surprised that the BSI technology does only deliver slightly better than the D810 and a several years old sensor design it incorporates. I would have expected at least much much better results. Shows once more how good the D810 already was (is).

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Hmmm Sony beat the Nikon on every other score. Sony went after better higher ISO. Thanks Sony that's what I was after. Far more important to me than DR.

    But even more important I could care less what Nikon , canon or any other camera scores. I bought a Sony camera to me nothing else means anything. These comparisions are the biggest waste of people's time. I have one brand to shoot with so that's what I shoot. My clients don't care what the scores are. All the care about is what I deliver. All a shooter should care about is what he has in his hands and what he can deliver. Seriously I never want to buy a Nikon again if I can help it or Canon for that matter. These matters are extremely boring.

    I shot a nice gig yesterday it was the best shooting experience as far as camera I had in many years. I actually enjoyed working. This DXO stuff is for people that need convincing they bought a good product. Im Not that insecure I know I did

    I'm bidding on a 60 page catalog next week for a major beverage company. I get it I'm buying a second body immediately and more glass. This is a investment in me and if Sony keeps building great product I will continue this investment. If not I'll go somewhere else.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    At ISO 100 The D810 has a bit less than half a stop DR advantage over the A7RII. At At ISO 300 the DR is equal. Above that the A7RII is better, up till a full stop.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by JaapD View Post
    At ISO 100 The D810 has a bit less than half a stop DR advantage over the A7RII. At At ISO 300 the DR is equal. Above that the A7RII is better, up till a full stop.
    Real men shoot at ISO 32



    I do, actually... 32 and 64 most of the time. Must be a habit from my Velvia days
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Real men shoot at ISO 32



    I do, actually... 32 and 64 most of the time. Must be a habit from my Velvia days
    Dear Jørgen, you really live up to your quote ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Dear Jørgen, you really live up to your quote ...
    It's not as silly as it sounds. I shoot at industrial plants very often as part of my work, and the contrasts can be extreme, so the best solution is to use the camera that offers the highest DR at the ISO that offers that maximum. That means shooting with a tripod at ISO 32, and since since the D810 is the camera this side of MF that has the highest DR, that was one of several reasons why I bought it. It doesn't help me much that some other camera offers 12 stops at ISO 800. It's simply not sufficient for my needs, and as the curve above shows, even my old Fujis offer higher DR at ISO 800, although with much less resolution and probably with more noise as well.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Hello everybody! (my first post)

    I had a private event last weekend, where I was shooting in favor for my mother-in-law. As a surprise a group played up she worked with for over 30 years. In the middle of the concert they took flutes out of their pockets and began to play. My mother-in-law loves to play flutes, but the group are all professionals that are thinking derogatory about playing flutes. They made jokes about that all the 30 years, but never played.
    My mother-in-law is very reserved, but at this moment she standed up and shouted through the whole room: "Sebastian, Sebastian, shoot that!" Of course I already did (silent shutter).
    I had to go up to f4.5 from f1.8 to get the two leaders of the group sharp and for that I had to push ISO to 12800. The picture is great, she will love it. Thanks to this sensor. I don't mind if it is the best in the world, but I never ever want to go back to my old camera (for such situations).

    On the other hand: For me all that tech stuff from DXO, dpreview, Bill Claff or Jim Kasson is not for comparing the camera, I use it to understand my camera. I know how EFCS works, when I should turn it off, which ISO values shines, what happens on silent shutter, how PDAF and CDAF works together and much much more.
    Last edited by seb; 28th August 2015 at 01:30.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    For me at least the improved DR at higher ISO's is the real benefit of this camera. When I originally bought the A7s the DR at high iso was one of the things I found to be most useful and to have this in the A7rII just makes it such a versatile tool. While a large DR is of course very useful I do find that we are now betting to a stage where the want for more is getting a little like the mega pixel wars of a few years ago.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Amen Jack. I've been discreetly trying to hint at this, but not making any friends....
    I've been saying the same. The reason people think the A7RII is better is because when you process the files, the colour is very neutral in the shadows wheras the D810 and the A7R have colour crossovers in the deep shadows and need a lot of careful curve work to correct. Only when you've done that is the extra dynamic range usable

    Tim

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hmmm Sony beat the Nikon on every other score. Sony went after better higher ISO. Thanks Sony that's what I was after. Far more important to me than DR.

    But even more important I could care less what Nikon , canon or any other camera scores. I bought a Sony camera to me nothing else means anything. These comparisions are the biggest waste of people's time. I have one brand to shoot with so that's what I shoot. My clients don't care what the scores are. All the care about is what I deliver. All a shooter should care about is what he has in his hands and what he can deliver. Seriously I never want to buy a Nikon again if I can help it or Canon for that matter. These matters are extremely boring.

    I shot a nice gig yesterday it was the best shooting experience as far as camera I had in many years. I actually enjoyed working. This DXO stuff is for people that need convincing they bought a good product. Im Not that insecure I know I did

    I'm bidding on a 60 page catalog next week for a major beverage company. I get it I'm buying a second body immediately and more glass. This is a investment in me and if Sony keeps building great product I will continue this investment. If not I'll go somewhere else.
    I am NOT a big fan of the DXO scoring system. Like Guy, I couldn't care less what they say. I would much rather know if a particular lens is sharp enough for my needs or not and if it has issues with a particular camera body.

    For a camera, my only interest is if it fits my requirements of say wildlife shooting (fast AF, high fps etc) or if there is too much noise at a given ISO or shutter shake at a a certain speed etc. I am not bothered with DR, never have been. FWIW, I don't agree with DXO on many things but that's just my opinion.

    Good luck with the catalog bidding Guy. Hope you get it.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Nikon D810 remains king of DR by almost a full stop over the A7rII -- or am I missing something? Granted, at over ISO 400 the Sony shows about a 1-stop advantage, but that is already heavily trimmed both cams base ISO DR significantly...

    If my main interest were landscape, I'd see it the same way as you - D810 gives more DR where it matters to me. However I mainly like taking photos of people and don't often find myself shooting at base ISO.

    From my point of view, all of these cameras give me plenty of DR to work with at base ISO, whereas the A7RII gives me more at the ISOs where DR is marginal to work with, ISOs where I live.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Well...

    Yes, different strokes. I would rather have one full stop more DR at my base ISO than one extra stop at any ISO over 800, but that's me -- frankly, whether I'm shooting 1600 or 3200 doesn't matter much to me, because at that point I'm going for something else besides DR, and then 7 stops DR is often enough so it doesn't matter if I have 9 or even 10 available. And even then I can usually "fake" some back in with a careful curve if needed for the look I want anyway...
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Amen Jack. I've been discreetly trying to hint at this, but not making any friends....
    Well Tim, digital cam brand "fan-ism" is and has become more prevalent ever since Leica released the M8 LOL! I am thankful that at least here at GetDPI we can all be in whatever camp we want to be and discuss the nuances between systems openly, and explain why our favorites are our favorites without sinking to churlish behavior shown on other sites! In fact I believe we all learn and grow when engaged in these discussions as friends that share a passion for photography.

    And perhaps my most salient point is we are talking performance nuances when challenging the advantages of 13 or 14 total stops DR versus 9 or 10 at ISO 3200 or 7 v 8 at ISO 25,000! I mean reread that last sentence again ---- we now have 7 to 8 stops at ISO 25,000 in multiple camera systems! 10 years ago, 7 to 8 stops was what the best (and slowest) color film emulsions gave us. ISO 25,000 was a pipe dream -- and when anybody achieved it, they were lucky to have 3 stops; and those 3 were black, white and gray
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    We really have so much DR now that even here the brightest sun I ever seen in Arizona I'm still adding to my black point . All these cameras do so well here. I do need the ISO 3200 ability so for me this works out but like I always say DXO is meaningless in a way it don't take processing in the equation which we all know can tweak anything. We are so lucky from when I started digital back in the 90s its scary
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    This is my position too. I was expecting for a better landscape camera (which in some ways it is) but v2 advantages are as an action camera mainly.
    So for me the A7rII is a mild disappointment. The 5DsR is also less than expected too. The next Nikon could again leapfrog over but my glass is Canon.
    I would certainly pass on this Sony offer (hey, it's only for a few months ) but the silent shutter is very persuasive.
    Undecided yet.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Well...

    Yes, different strokes. I would rather have one full stop more DR at my base ISO than one extra stop at any ISO over 800, but that's me -- frankly, whether I'm shooting 1600 or 3200 doesn't matter much to me, because at that point I'm going for something else besides DR, and then 7 stops DR is often enough so it doesn't matter if I have 9 or even 10 available. And even then I can usually "fake" some back in with a careful curve if needed for the look I want anyway...

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Eduardo, I never looked at the 7r2 as an action camera!
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    I know friend. It was just a quick way to dismiss it as an ideal landscape camera.
    Besides, I'm under the impression that Guy's keen feelings are because of the "action" side of the camera rather than its contemplative landscaping attitudes.
    For what I've read and expect now, Sony releasing a new firmware with true 14 bit / non lossy raw would make it my ideal landscape camera.
    Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Eduardo, I never looked at the 7r2 as an action camera!
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Eduardo, I never looked at the 7r2 as an action camera!
    Hi Vivek, but it is. Here is an action shot just for you. Action in a landscape shot! Yeah!



    Sony A7r2 + Mitakon Zhongyi Speedmaster 50/0.95
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    More action! Displayed at 50% resolution.



    Sony A7r2 + Leica APO-R 280/4, 1/2000 s, either f/4 or 5.6, ISO 2500, processed with C1.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 28th August 2015 at 09:41.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    K-H, Not playing it fair! This is supposed to be a thread about charts and numbers!
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    K-H, Not playing it fair! This is supposed to be a thread about charts and numbers!
    Thanks Vivek! Sorry about that. Oh well, I always follow my own rules anyway.
    I don't know why, but somehow the DxO charts never seem to capture the ton of fun I have with the A7r2.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Great true action picture!
    What kind of ISO, focusing and post?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    More action! Displayed at 50% resolution.

    [IMG]https://winklers.smugmug.com/KHW/Pics-by-Date/2015-08-25-A7RII2804-APO/i-rw638wv/0/O/_DSC1445_7952x5304_Crop_3840x2160_1920x1080.jpg

    Sony A7r2 + Leica APO-R 280/4
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Great true action picture!
    What kind of ISO, focusing and post?
    Thanks. I also added the info above.

    1/2000 s, either f/4 or 5.6, ISO 2500, processed with C1.
    The APO-R 280/4 is a manual focus only lens.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks. I also added the info above.

    1/2000 s, either f/4 or 5.6, ISO 2500, processed with C1.
    The APO-R 280/4 is a manual focus only lens.
    Color me impressed . Great shot
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Color me impressed . Great shot
    Many thanks Guy. Especially coming from you means a lot to me. Thanks again.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    I know friend. It was just a quick way to dismiss it as an ideal landscape camera.
    Besides, I'm under the impression that Guy's keen feelings are because of the "action" side of the camera rather than its contemplative landscaping attitudes.
    For what I've read and expect now, Sony releasing a new firmware with true 14 bit / non lossy raw would make it my ideal landscape camera.
    Best
    My money made is not really landscape so speed is a little more important . Btw this rII can be a sports cam do not underestimate its speed. It's quick not football quick but it's still very fast
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Many thanks Guy. Especially coming from you means a lot to me. Thanks again.
    Seriously it's a real challenge . I tried 2 weeks ago had a much shorter lens but really manual focus is the only way to go. I tried the AF but they are way to small and like lightning. Nothing can catch them with AF
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    The DXO illustrates one reason why the A7r2 is the best camera I have used.

    Not because it scored one insignificant point higher than the powerful D810 but because it somewhat quantifies why it is such a great all around camera.

    And that is without bringing the 4K video, amazing AF, IBIS, or the EVF into play.

    If I were locking down heavy gear on a tripod and shooting at base ISO I would, no doubt, be torn between the D810 and the Pentax 645 Z and the delicate nuances of printing from each.

    But hey, I'm not!

    And even if I were, the Sony is a hell of a good choice. I will happily put my Sony landscape imagery up against any other gear shot by a roughly equal photographer and be confident that no buyer will notice the difference.

    And whatever differences do exist will be more than lost in my post processing and printing and framing and display lighting choices.

    Dang it, I've almost talked myself into believing that it doesn't matter at all. Maybe I should look again at the 24-240. Sharp in the center, I've heard.

    Regards,

    Bill
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  40. #40
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    D810 = killer camera!

    A7RII = killer camera!
    www.douglaswoodphotography.com
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  41. #41
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    D810 = killer camera!

    A7RII = killer camera!
    Thanks, I agree. I am sure there are others.
    In my book, just a tad below that, from the previous technology generation though:

    D800E

    A7R

    I certainly will continue to use those tools as well.

    In fact the Sony FE 90/2.8 Macro G OSS lens gives the A7R a new capability, namely image stabilization.
    Here is a handheld shot with that system, displayed at 50% resolution.



    A7R + 90/2.8 FE Macro G OSS, 1/1000 s, f/11, ISO 1250, processed with C1.

    I think that lens (or in the future other FE OSS lenses) will see a lot of use on my A7R.
    With best regards, K-H.
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  42. #42
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Yes Sir,

    But I would say that it is a bit typical. Nikon and Pentax seem to make better use of the Sony sensor than Sony themselves. I would think that Bionz (the ASIC) is the culprit.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Maybe I don't know how to read the chart properly, but it appears to me the Nikon D810 remains king of DR by almost a full stop over the A7rII -- or am I missing something? Granted, at over ISO 400 the Sony shows about a 1-stop advantage, but that is already heavily trimmed both cams base ISO DR significantly...

  43. #43
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Hi,

    Well, real men shoot at base ISO and carry ND-filters…

    Joke aside, with quantum efficiency going up, we will get higher base ISOs. Backside illumination also adds a bit on ISO. Now, full well capacity is also going up, which can lower base ISO.

    On the other hand, DxO-mark measured base ISO to 73, not so far from 64 :-)

    Reading your later posting I realise that you shot base ISO to gain maximum DR. That makes sense. Using Nikon D810 also makes sense.

    Best regard
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Real men shoot at ISO 32



    I do, actually... 32 and 64 most of the time. Must be a habit from my Velvia days

  44. #44
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Hi,

    Yes a good point. Hmm, several good points! Now is time for some good shooting.


    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hmmm Sony beat the Nikon on every other score. Sony went after better higher ISO. Thanks Sony that's what I was after. Far more important to me than DR.

    But even more important I could care less what Nikon , canon or any other camera scores. I bought a Sony camera to me nothing else means anything. These comparisions are the biggest waste of people's time. I have one brand to shoot with so that's what I shoot. My clients don't care what the scores are. All the care about is what I deliver. All a shooter should care about is what he has in his hands and what he can deliver. Seriously I never want to buy a Nikon again if I can help it or Canon for that matter. These matters are extremely boring.

    I shot a nice gig yesterday it was the best shooting experience as far as camera I had in many years. I actually enjoyed working. This DXO stuff is for people that need convincing they bought a good product. Im Not that insecure I know I did

    I'm bidding on a 60 page catalog next week for a major beverage company. I get it I'm buying a second body immediately and more glass. This is a investment in me and if Sony keeps building great product I will continue this investment. If not I'll go somewhere else.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Seriously it's a real challenge . I tried 2 weeks ago had a much shorter lens but really manual focus is the only way to go. I tried the AF but they are way to small and like lightning. Nothing can catch them with AF
    Guy, the a77II and 150-600 or 70-400 with its new flex spot mode can nail them all day long with AF. For me AF is all I use on these and set the in camera focus limiter to a range 2' in front and back of the food source. Spot focusing and hoping one flies through that spot is far tougher and the DOF far too narrow with long glass and short distances. Right now the females are very active and they are much less spooky than the males who are starting to move south already here.

    Have not tried the a7rII with this as I don't have the #3 adapter but I did not buy this body for that purpose either. The a77II will remain my BIF/ wildlife and macro camera. Hate giving up reach or DOF for these genre.

  46. #46
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Yes Sir,

    But I would say that it is a bit typical. Nikon and Pentax seem to make better use of the Sony sensor than Sony themselves. I would think that Bionz (the ASIC) is the culprit.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Based on one Sony manager's interview that appears to be one of the problems. It is quite possible that Nikon and Pentax ask for and get sensor units with better read out from Sony. I used to "believe" that they are all the same.

    Frankly, I am getting less and less enthusiastic with Sony.
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  47. #47
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Based on one Sony manager's interview that appears to be one of the problems. It is quite possible that Nikon and Pentax ask for and get sensor units with better read out from Sony. I used to "believe" that they are all the same.

    Frankly, I am getting less and less enthusiastic with Sony.

    Thanks Vivek. What are your reasons? TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    K-H,

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sunset-b...ompromise.html

    Add to this one other fragmented interview somewhere (recent) where the Sony guys say that if the people want it, they will build it and provide it.

    I want all the comforts (size, liveview and such advances) that the current Sony cams offer but with better things added to them. I do not accept the view that a liveview cam has to compromise on a lot to be here. The only way that Sony will act is with competition. Samsung, unfortunately has not done much to push Sony. I hope some others will pick up that task.
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  49. #49
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    K-H,

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sunset-b...ompromise.html

    Add to this one other fragmented interview somewhere (recent) where the Sony guys say that if the people want it, they will build it and provide it.

    I want all the comforts (size, liveview and such advances) that the current Sony cams offer but with better things added to them. I do not accept the view that a liveview cam has to compromise on a lot to be here. The only way that Sony will act is with competition. Samsung, unfortunately has not done much to push Sony. I hope some others will pick up that task.

    Thanks Vivek for the pointer to the other thread. Very interesting indeed!
    With best regards, K-H.

  50. #50
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    Re: A7RII DxOmarked

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    K-H,

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sunset-b...ompromise.html

    Add to this one other fragmented interview somewhere (recent) where the Sony guys say that if the people want it, they will build it and provide it.

    I want all the comforts (size, liveview and such advances) that the current Sony cams offer but with better things added to them. I do not accept the view that a liveview cam has to compromise on a lot to be here. The only way that Sony will act is with competition. Samsung, unfortunately has not done much to push Sony. I hope some others will pick up that task.
    Who would be the others then?

    Nikon - I doubt!

    Canon - I doubt even more!

    Fuji seems to stick with APSC - so no real competition.

    Olympus is even less competition with m43. Only thing if a rumor gets true, they could build a FF mirrorless camera for FE mount, which would be a real competition then.

    Leica with their new mirrorless system to come? Might become a competition although I fear the price will rule out any real competition.

    Do not see much competition for the next time (years) unfortunately!

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