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Thread: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

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    Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Hello all, I have using the Canon 24 TSE ll lens with my A7r ll via the Metabones lV adapter with superb results. Just yesterday (birthday present to self) I ordered the Zeiss Batis 25 due to the rave reviews, and wanting a smaller/lighter lens when traveling. I know it will probably be some time before getting the Batis, but in the meantime, has anyone compared these two lenses in this setup? I realize the Canon is a TS lens but as far as pure optical quality, how do they differ?
    Thanks,
    J. Paul

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    I have both but haven't done a comparison.

    I'm planning to do some shooting to see how stitching together multiple frames works using the shift function to gain coverage.
    Also, planning to do a combination of shift and panning with nodal point off set. I'll take along the Batis 25, will be instructive.
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    My bet the Batis will smoke it until it gets to about F8,f11 in the corners. The TSE is a brilliant lens but it shines starting around F8. The Batis starts at 2.8 in the corners and at F4 is just about perfect. Diffrent lenses and diffrent needs. Carrying the TSE around all day is not exactly fun.
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Thanks to DMWard and Guy for your feedback. I will surely be making some comparison test between the two. Guy, like you say, the Canon 24 TSE ll is a stellar lens, but there are times I may not choose to carry the beast .
    Regards,
    J. Paul

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    If you are going with the Batis 25, try replacing your 24 with a 17 TSe... That way you can have both for different situations and you will be covered for landscape work too..
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    The 24 TSE version II is one of Canon's best. The Digital Picture says it "is impressively sharp wide open and is very sharp right into the full frame corners. Stopping down does not make a significant difference in sharpness". Distortion is "negligible". I would be surprised if the 25 Batis is better than that. On the other hand, I'd much rather use a smaller lens like the Batis.
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Hi,

    I have the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII, too. My feeling is that it is mostly outperformed by the Sony 24-70/2.8 ZA zoom I have. Now, it may be that my sample is a lemon. On the other hand, I have seen a test on DPReview which was not that great and Ken Rockwell also says that Canon's own 24-70/2.8 and 24-105/4 may outperform it.

    From what I see, I would think that anyone not needing the TSE functionality would be better of with any decent 24 mm lens.

    I'll try to put up some images on the web…

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by jpaulmoore View Post
    Hello all, I have using the Canon 24 TSE ll lens with my A7r ll via the Metabones lV adapter with superb results. Just yesterday (birthday present to self) I ordered the Zeiss Batis 25 due to the rave reviews, and wanting a smaller/lighter lens when traveling. I know it will probably be some time before getting the Batis, but in the meantime, has anyone compared these two lenses in this setup? I realize the Canon is a TS lens but as far as pure optical quality, how do they differ?
    Thanks,
    J. Paul
    Homepage: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    I have a test somewhere on this forum. Looking

    From memory corners do not show up until F8
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    From Photozone

    Now it's not overly surprising that the lens is capable of providing a very high quality based on a neutral shift setting. But what about the extremes then ? There is, of course, a decrease in image quality when shifting the image frame towards the edges of the image circle. This is most obvious at f/3.5 where you can spot some corner softness and, of course, a higher amount of vignetting. The corner softness is gone by f/5.6 and the vignetting issue is also very much reduced here. The image quality is generally very good from f/5.6 till f/11. Lateral CAs remain a non-issue here as well.
    Typical for tilt-shift lenses you've to live without AF but if in doubt your camera's LiveView feature should help in critical situations. The build quality is absolutely stellar but then you can expect no less from a lens in this price class. The metal body design in conjunction with the large glass elements results in a fairly big and heavy package though so be prepared for that if you consider such a lens.

    Regarding its optical qualities and the immense creative potential we can only conclude ... highly recommended!
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    F8.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    The 24 TS-E is my main user lens. Think it is probably big and heavy compared to my 28 Summicron, but feels very natural to me on A7rII. Both metal bodies and I have always loved all things metal.
    David
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    That bar chart is the lens with 12mm shift, Guy. It's very different shot straight on:
    http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/603-canon24f35tse2

    I'd say it's designed for shift at f8 or so.
    But these are very different classes of lens: 780 grams and 82mm filters, very large even on a DSLR, then add in the adapter; versus 335 grams, 67mm filters.

    What I see here, as with many Canon lenses, is excellent centers wide open and a stop down, with not great corners - then the center falls away as the corners rise at mid apertures. You can expect this in a TS lens, these are generally much less wonderful used 'straight on', design constraints come into it, due to coverage (image circle) needs. This one does quite well on 21mp but on high res can be expected to go the same way as the new 11-24, the first lens PZ tested on the 50mp body - that is, rather badly outside the centers:

    http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff...1124f4?start=1

    The B25 has excellent optical qualities, as shown by the fabulous MTF. I'd back it in a heartbeat at any aperture in this contest (TS used head on) on 36/42mp. It's corners are 80-90% of centers at all apertures. Then you have Zeiss micro-contrast to factor in. Then $1300 versus $1900. f2 versus f3.5. Versatile versus specialized. No adapter. The B25/B85 were designed for high resolution. The 24 TS II is a June 2009 release, well before even the D800 ushered in 36mp photography, and the game changed forever.
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    My bad did not see the shift
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    The B25 has excellent optical qualities, as shown by the fabulous MTF.
    Is the Batis 25's MTF chart pre- or post- software correction? I noticed that the Zeiss pdf shows the vignetting and distortion charts with camera correction "on", but doesn't specify for the MTF.

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I have the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII, too. My feeling is that it is mostly outperformed by the Sony 24-70/2.8 ZA zoom I have. Now, it may be that my sample is a lemon. On the other hand, I have seen a test on DPReview which was not that great and Ken Rockwell also says that Canon's own 24-70/2.8 and 24-105/4 may outperform it.
    Erik
    Ouch Erik - you must have a very bad example of the V2 TS-E. We use this and the 17mm all day on jobs along with the 24-105, 70-200 F4 and 14mm II. The latter is the only lens that comes close to the pair of TS-E's for sharpness, colour, contrast and all round wonderful'ness

    They can get knocked easily out of alignment - the 24mm has gone in twice to Canon for calibration.

    ps. Generally ingore Ken ...
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    F8.
    And be there
    J. Paul
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Not very happy with my 24/3.5 TSE… much interested in observations

    Hi,

    I just shot a comparison between my Sony 24-70/2.8 ZA and my Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII. To me it seems that the 24-70/2.8 ZA outperforms the Canon 24/3.5 TSE. My Canon lens is brand new while the 24-70/2.8 is quite a few years.

    Here are some samples (24/3.5 TSE on the left and 24-70/2.8 on the right):







    Raw images:

    http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Ar...1-_DSC0241.dng
    http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Ar...1-_DSC0243.dng

    These were shot on the Sony Alpha A7rII with the Metabones adapter. Sony 24-70/2.8 at f/6.3 and Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII at f/11. The Canon was not shifted/tilted.

    Much interested in any comments as my lens is definitively under warranty, so I can send it in for repair if it is a bad sample. Just keep in mind that the crops are actual pixels from 42 MPix.

    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Erik,
    Is there a lens profile for the Sony 24-70?
    I noticed there is not a lens profile for the 24 TSE when I was doing some comparison shooting this morning.

    If there is a profile for the Sony lens it makes it hard to do a comparison since there is know way to know what sharpening or contrast is baked into the profile.

    The details you provided look as though contrast, clarity and sharpening would go a long way toward getting the TSE looking similar to the Sony.

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    TSE do not have any profiles available in any raw program.its a shift lens so they have no real standard point to go by.
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 1st September 2015 at 15:48.
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    bear in mind these lenses are of quite different purpose, reflected in usable image circle, mechanics, aperture use, size, etc. personally if i'm shooting that wide, i want rise/fall much more that f2.8
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Erik the lower left corner is MUCH better on the TS-E shot. Also I see quite a bit of CA on the TSE shot (edge of roof tiles). Maybe the metabones adapter is misaligned a bit (decentering?). Also, in the TS-E lens is easy to have a tiny bit of tilt dialed in by mistake which will alter results slightly.It is also a finiky lens to nail focus. The TSE lens works great even when shifted so your results are bit surprising. (the cover glass thickness of the Sony also affect sharpness with some lenses not designed for it, see Roger's blog on lensrental.com, he has lots of info on this)

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Hi Ken,

    Thank for your observations. Just a few comments:

    • The Sony lens is quite a bit unsharp in the corners, I wanted the Canon as a high quality alternative and also wanted the T&S
    • Regarding the tilt, it has a lock for tilt and that was activated for that shot
    • Misalignment on the metabones is possible, hard to check without another canon lens.
    • I have noticed focusing was not easy, it doesn't snap in and out of focus
    • I have also seen the CA, but I have seen similar CA on one of Chris Barrets samples with the Canon 24/3.5 TSE on a Sony A7r
    • The cover glass thing is not relevant. To begin with it is similar thickness to what Canon uses (around 2 mm I guess). Also the Canon lens is clearly a retrofocus design with the outlet pupil far from the sensor plane.


    Just to say, I found the Sony zoom far better than I expected, but it is known to be very sharp at the center and having pretty bad corners.

    A months ago I have shot with the lens on my friends Canon 5DIII and compared it to his brand new Canon 16-35/4L. We expected it to perform better.

    Thanks for taking time to answer my posting!

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Erik the lower left corner is MUCH better on the TS-E shot. Also I see quite a bit of CA on the TSE shot (edge of roof tiles). Maybe the metabones adapter is misaligned a bit (decentering?). Also, in the TS-E lens is easy to have a tiny bit of tilt dialed in by mistake which will alter results slightly.It is also a finiky lens to nail focus. The TSE lens works great even when shifted so your results are bit surprising. (the cover glass thickness of the Sony also affect sharpness with some lenses not designed for it, see Roger's blog on lensrental.com, he has lots of info on this)

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Hi,

    Yes, sharpening can make the Canon keeping up with the Sony lens.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post
    Erik,
    Is there a lens profile for the Sony 24-70?
    I noticed there is not a lens profile for the 24 TSE when I was doing some comparison shooting this morning.

    If there is a profile for the Sony lens it makes it hard to do a comparison since there is know way to know what sharpening or contrast is baked into the profile.

    The details you provided look as though contrast, clarity and sharpening would go a long way toward getting the TSE looking similar to the Sony.

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    Member Zlatko Batistich's Avatar
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    Re: Not very happy with my 24/3.5 TSE… much interested in observations

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    These were shot on the Sony Alpha A7rII with the Metabones adapter. Sony 24-70/2.8 at f/6.3 and Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII at f/11.
    Why not compare them at the same aperture? The A7RII is probably diffraction limited at around f/8, so f/11 will be a little less sharp than f/6.3. (The 50mp 5DS is diffraction limited at f/6.7.)

    The Digital Picture shows that the 24/3.5 TSE II is less sharp at f/11 than it is at f/5.6 (on a 1DsIII, when viewing at 100%). The difference is subtle but real:
    Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Tilt-Shift Lens Image Quality
    (mouse over the chart for f/11)

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    Re: Not very happy with my 24/3.5 TSE… much interested in observations

    Hi,

    Thanks for the observation!

    I also have aperture f/8 shots with the Canon, same building another day. At that time I shot an aperture series. The lens is a bit sharper at the center at f/8. With corners its is a bit mixed.

    The reason I used f/11 for this shot was that I was not very happy with the corners of the previous shot.

    It may be that I should be happy with my Sony 24-70/2.8ZA and not unhappy with my Canon 24/3.5LII?

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatko Batistich View Post
    Why not compare them at the same aperture? The A7RII is probably diffraction limited at around f/8, so f/11 will be a little less sharp than f/6.3. (The 50mp 5DS is diffraction limited at f/6.7.)

    The Digital Picture shows that the 24/3.5 TSE II is less sharp at f/11 than it is at f/5.6 (on a 1DsIII, when viewing at 100%). The difference is subtle but real:
    Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Tilt-Shift Lens Image Quality
    (mouse over the chart for f/11)
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 1st September 2015 at 22:10.

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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    TSE do not have any profiles available in any raw program.its a shift lens so they have no real standard point to go by.
    Alpa does make a very nice tool for correction distortion of shifted lenses. Unfortunately last time I checked it was still not available for the Canon TS-E lenses (only for Schneider & Rodenstock series). Was hoping that the Canon TS-E profiles would be added after they released their FPS adapter and also wrote that to Alpa. But no answer.

    When no shift (or little shift) is done, I'm quite happy correcting the 24mm TS-E distortion (low but visible) by applying the 24mm F1.4 II Canon lens profile @ 65% in Capture 1. Works for me.
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    Re: Zeiss Batis 25 versus Canon 24mm TSE ll lens

    I bought the Canon 24 TSE II when it first came out. Must say I was not impressed. Did not seem much sharper than my 24-105, sold it a few years later. It is possible that mine was not an optimal copy.

    Now, the Batis 25 on my A7RII is about the sharpest combination of camera and lens in that format I've seen, and I've owned many of Canon's best at one time or the other.

    The one thing we may be missing is that in the TSE plus Sony combo, the adapter is a big factor and may add quirks of its own. And then you lose AF because these are manual focus lenses. For me there would be no real reason to use a TSE lens since I do no architectural work and for panos I still find nodal stitching at slightly longer focal lengths shot in portrait orientation to be a better solution.
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