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Thread: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

  1. #101
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Sony is Sony and have no interest in photography. They have interest in selling things and once it will be less milky, it will be trashed. !
    canon is so devoted to photography that it spent 8 billions for a surveillance camera company but does not show any interest in building a decent 50mm lenses which can take advantage of the high res sensors for example.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Okay, let's step back a bit and survey the landscape.

    Here on the Sony forum, a member asks a question that implies there is something wrong with Canon (and by extension Nikon) because they have not seriously pursued mirror-less in the same manner that Sony has. By inference, that certainly could be translated into a declaration that mirror-less is somehow currently or potentially superior to existing DSLR technologies.

    Following posts liken that "inaction" to the failure of other manufacturers to technologically keep up, leading to their summary demise.

    Couple that with the attrition in the camera industry in general.

    Sounds grim to me.

    Actually, the issue isn't "Mirror-Less" … after all, Leica has been mirror-less for almost a century. In fact, the advent of SLRs wiped out a lot of mirror-less brands/models and almost sunk Leica.

    The real difference has been the electrification of the entire photographic experience. That allowed SLR viewing without the mirror-box … thus also allowing for a smaller camera.

    It should be called ESLR.

    Some like that experience, some don't. Some are ambivalent about it and just work with what they have in hand whatever the camera may be.

    At this point I'd like to offer a few thoughts in support of … "Continuity".

    As a victim of "Lack of Continuity", I don't see it as a small issue. I personally bought into advanced technology from Kyocera (Contax). The revolutionary Contax 645 was the bees-knees; the AX 35mm film camera allowed AF with existing manual focus Zeiss lenses; Contax N Digital was the first full frame DSLR; Etc., … all sporting an array of class leading AF optics from Zeiss. Then it was over. A fortune in dead-end equipment. I had an even bigger fortune sunk into Leica R including the DMR. Then it also was gone. Then Sony A900 DSLR with yet another fortune in Zeiss AF optics abandoned for the A99 SLT electronic photographic experience … and now yet another foray into a new camera concept with yet another set of optics … WTF!

    Canon and Nikon may not have set the drum beat all the time, and those that like relearning/mastering tools every few years may not have liked their pace … but there certainly IS a steady sense of continuity while providing tools that get the job done … often well beyond the abilities of the users themselves.

    Had I not been an itchy-pants, got to have this or that, grass is greener over there, impatient techno-dog … I'd be a LOT richer, and with the wisdom finally obtained after decades of shooting both for money and fun, I am positive that my work would not have suffered one iota.

    - Marc
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  3. #103
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    off topic but on trend for this thread in its current state

    I use an A7r with a metabones/tse/macro or a cambo actus for still life and some landscape/interiors, I'm not a fan of anything apart from using cost effective tools to make high quality images that make clients happy and my comfort fund bigger.
    I like the files I get from the Sony and will probably get a mkII when it does its first price drop but I have to say they (Sony)have a lot of work to do on in the hand usability and menu's, I hardly ever have to shoot moving things or people but I instantly go for my 5DIII if that's what I'm shooting as it's such an easy camera to use.

    What I have noticed in the pro rental/sales places in London (the kind of places that quote prices ex VAT and are not on the high St) is that they now sell and rent a few Sony A series cameras alongside the phase/hassleblad and canon/Nikon, there is no Leica, M4/3, Pentax or Sony DSLR on their shelves so there is obviously a demand for their cameras in the professional arena (not weddings/social) but it's probably not in the way Sony envisaged.

    As for the mirrorless question? Canon have their finger in plenty of pies and will probably have another tentative push into that area with a nearly but not quite camera (aren't all cameras never 100% perfect?) but I do wonder about Nikon who are beholden to another sensor manufacturer and have few other revenue streams, maybe they are waiting for a big surge in birdwatching?

  4. #104
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I understand a bit where you're coming from, since in the end it's about the pictures and not about the gear. But what I do not understand is when you have such a problems with gear centric fora why you bother reading them and even making the effort to put long posts in there. Life's too short to bother with that if it gives you a problem.
    It is a metaphor. A simple forum section about photo, not gear centred, would solve my problem. Then I will not only share my pics because I shoot Nikon, I will share my pics because I shoot I only hope other ppl would like it
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    It is a metaphor. A simple forum section about photo, not gear centred, would solve my problem. Then I will not only share my pics because I shoot Nikon, I will share my pics because I shoot I only hope other ppl would like it
    it already exists, on GetDPI
    My Pics
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    A picture of the week thread for each week of the year would be good anyone can post anything they have shot during that week or whatever - someone could collate some favourites over the year and make a book even...
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/image-presentation/


    I do like the picture of the week idea
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  8. #108
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Ok now make it as visible (important) as the gear centred sections and I'm ok
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Ok now make it as visible (important) as the gear centred sections and I'm ok
    It kind of is. It's a problem anywhere you put it because it don't have a brand name in the title. Honestly it's up to members to make it popular. The more posts the more attention it gets. It's the same thing with most sites. It's not like we have not tired this in the past. We put these image forums up and there brand agnostic and they just don't fly. ART is a tough subject I guess for folks to sink there teeth in.

    Most people on forums are hobbyists and there main goal is just go out and enjoy photography but more important have fun. I work my *** off everyday here to help people do that. That is my giving back to the community. Honestly I do a great job at it too. Yea ill pat my own back on that one because very few Pros do it for the love of the game not money. My signature actually means something
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  10. #110
    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Ok now make it as visible (important) as the gear centred sections and I'm ok
    Eagerly awaiting your contributions . There's no magic spirit that certainly makes it more visible and important, only the members here can do that.

    I've been trying the same in the non-A7 threads in the Sony form, but with very mixed success

    However I won't resign from the gear threads either. As long as it is a good discussion on pro's/con's and possibilities of different types of gear and brands there's nothing wrong with that. I hate bashing and uncritical fanboys, but usually my scroll wheel takes care of that quickly enough
    My Pics
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  11. #111
    Senior Member Lucille's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    The only thing that matters, is if I can get my hands on a Zeiss Batis 25mm. I am starting to think it is a figment of my imagination.


    Why am I posting this here? Good question, I have no idea.......
    the HepKitty
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    As much as I am as excited as anyone about the Sony A7R and R2 and S2 etc... DSLR cameras are not going anywhere. They are still the main force in professional photography and will be for a long time to come. I think what made the Sony such an instant hit was it's ability to work so well with Canon EOS lenses. It became an accessory to our Canon system - a fantastic situation. All my Canon TS-E, Zooms, 1.2 primes etc... it's like a dream come true.

    I still love and use my Canon 5D bodies and will probably add the 5DSR next month. I'm still not comfortable shooting with the Sony A7R2 for some of my work. A lot of fashion guys went for the D800 and 810 for the medium format quality, and now the 5DSR, but I don't see anyone I know moving towards mirrorless for that work yet.

    Did anyone see even one Sony system at the US Open sidelines over the last two weeks? I didn't. In as much as the 5DSR was not a big deal to us Sony owners, I think it was huge to Canon professionals. I'm sure an updated 5Dk3 is also on the way very soon.

    Canon has been making the best pro gear for decades and just because Sony shows up with a better camera isn't changing history. When Sony brings trucks and tents to major sporting events with a staff of techs and loaner gear like Canon and Nikon do, they will join that club.

    Should Canon consider mirrorless in the future? Sure. But is it important right now? I doubt it. I think they can take their time and slowly mature their mirrorless line by adding a lens or two every year.

    At least that's the way I see it.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
    The only thing that matters, is if I can get my hands on a Zeiss Batis 25mm. I am starting to think it is a figment of my imagination.


    Why am I posting this here? Good question, I have no idea.......
    Lol I know and trust me you do want this lens. I think in a few weeks production may start catching up to demand. If I see something I'll keep folks posted. I know a lot of dealers.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Okay, let's step back a bit and survey the landscape.

    Here on the Sony forum, a member asks a question that implies there is something wrong with Canon (and by extension Nikon) because they have not seriously pursued mirror-less in the same manner that Sony has. By inference, that certainly could be translated into a declaration that mirror-less is somehow currently or potentially superior to existing DSLR technologies.

    Following posts liken that "inaction" to the failure of other manufacturers to technologically keep up, leading to their summary demise.

    Couple that with the attrition in the camera industry in general.

    Sounds grim to me.

    Actually, the issue isn't "Mirror-Less" … after all, Leica has been mirror-less for almost a century. In fact, the advent of SLRs wiped out a lot of mirror-less brands/models and almost sunk Leica.

    The real difference has been the electrification of the entire photographic experience. That allowed SLR viewing without the mirror-box … thus also allowing for a smaller camera.

    It should be called ESLR.

    Some like that experience, some don't. Some are ambivalent about it and just work with what they have in hand whatever the camera may be.



    - Marc
    Marc is far more eloquent than I but has captured exactly what I was trying to say, there are posts in this thread which directly or indirectly state that mirrorless technology and evf is the future and that dslr's or ovf are dinosaurs compared with it, my point is always that there is no one size fits all, no need to justify your purchase, no need to mock anyone who likes using something different, they are just cameras.

    Lucille, thanks for stating that you hope not to bother me in the future, what a relief! Honestly, it would be impossible for you to bother me, were you really expecting me to spend time putting together a list of posts when it's obvious that you are asking because you don't think there are any? It's entirely acceptable for you not to think the same as me, it doesn't matter! Maybe you can read Marc's post above, decide you agree or decide you don't.

    Pegelli

    Of course you are right, it's always the latest thing, the 645z was the savour of humanity, cheap, medium format, that produced some really good reactions in people, there are very few posts mentioning it now, I have no doubt there is such a lot of sony stuff purely because they are constantly churning out new products, people are very sensitive about their purchases, Sony owners as much as anyone else I accept that.

    I loved the RX1, superb camera for when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan, great pictures and easy to hide so didn't get shot at. My first digital camera was a Canon 20d, that spent 2.5 years in the Antarctic with me and never let me down once, brilliant camera! I used a full D800/E setup for a couple of years and only sold it for the Leica, a huge backward step with no live view, no evf, miserable DR and it's a ccd sensor!! I love it more than all my other cameras put together. 100% of my income is from photography, I'm not for any particular camera, system or format, I just really dislike reading posts from people claiming this tech or that company is dead based on the choices they have made, it just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, it doesn't matter, it's just a discussion.

    Have a nice afternoon!

    Mat

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    Senior Member Lucille's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Marc is far more eloquent than I but has captured exactly what I was trying to say, there are posts in this thread which directly or indirectly state that mirrorless technology and evf is the future and that dslr's or ovf are dinosaurs compared with it, my point is always that there is no one size fits all, no need to justify your purchase, no need to mock anyone who likes using something different, they are just cameras.

    Lucille, thanks for stating that you hope not to bother me in the future, what a relief! Honestly, it would be impossible for you to bother me, were you really expecting me to spend time putting together a list of posts when it's obvious that you are asking because you don't think there are any? It's entirely acceptable for you not to think the same as me, it doesn't matter! Maybe you can read Marc's post above, decide you agree or decide you don't.

    Pegelli

    Of course you are right, it's always the latest thing, the 645z was the savour of humanity, cheap, medium format, that produced some really good reactions in people, there are very few posts mentioning it now, I have no doubt there is such a lot of sony stuff purely because they are constantly churning out new products, people are very sensitive about their purchases, Sony owners as much as anyone else I accept that.

    I loved the RX1, superb camera for when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan, great pictures and easy to hide so didn't get shot at. My first digital camera was a Canon 20d, that spent 2.5 years in the Antarctic with me and never let me down once, brilliant camera! I used a full D800/E setup for a couple of years and only sold it for the Leica, a huge backward step with no live view, no evf, miserable DR and it's a ccd sensor!! I love it more than all my other cameras put together. 100% of my income is from photography, I'm not for any particular camera, system or format, I just really dislike reading posts from people claiming this tech or that company is dead based on the choices they have made, it just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, it doesn't matter, it's just a discussion.

    Have a nice afternoon!

    Mat
    No Mat, I guess I am expecting you to type anything without backing it up.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Ahh well I doubt I'm the first person on the internet to disappoint you Lucille, I also doubt I shall be the last! You can read this thread from the start and either see it or not, either way doesn't matter to me.

    Mat

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    Senior Member Lucille's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Ahh well I doubt I'm the first person on the internet to disappoint you Lucille, I also doubt I shall be the last! You can read this thread from the start and either see it or not, either way doesn't matter to me.

    Mat

    No Mat, unfortunately I come across your type over and over and over. So we can agree, you are not the 1st, and won't be the last.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Hah, people who you don't agree with?! I'm sure you do! It's a forum Lucille, how boring if you agreed with everyone.

    Enjoy your Sony, it's the future!

    Mat

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Hah, people who you don't agree with?! I'm sure you do! It's a forum Lucille, how boring if you agreed with everyone.

    Enjoy your Sony, it's the future!

    Mat


    No, people that throw out statements and can't/won't/ back them up with evidence or facts.

    I am enjoying all my Sonys, all my Canons, all my Olympus, yet to get a Nikon or Leica.
    the HepKitty

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Let's move on folks. I see we are getting a little unfriendly and just want to put some brakes on. Thanks and that's from all the admins

    Opinions are just that opinions and don't always have to be backed up.

    As I said earlier this is one of those threads that are on the edge of great discussion but could turn South very fast. Let's be aware of that. Thanks Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    This is, if my memory serves me right, what an 800 lbs gorilla looks like:

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  22. #122
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This is, if my memory serves me right, what an 800 lbs gorilla looks like:
    That's always a great graph, puts some perspective and reality in the discussion. I wonder if we'll be able to see a bump in July/August due to the A7Rii. Guess we'll know that in a few weeks.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    That's always a great graph, puts some perspective and reality in the discussion. I wonder if we'll be able to see a bump in July/August due to the A7Rii. Guess we'll know that in a few weeks.
    A bulge in July-August ? They are not shipping fast enough for that. Way to difficult to get at, at least here were I live. Plus given the price, it isn't as if they were targetting the masses.

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    Senior Member 4season's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This is, if my memory serves me right, what an 800 lbs gorilla looks like:

    Your gorilla has lost a lot of weight lately.

  25. #125
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    While I second most of what you say - especially when it comes to what C/N can doe when they feel the time is right - I am absolutely not with you WRT Pentax/Ricoh!

    They have shown in the past that they do not follow up the right way, have a miserable sales structure at least here in Europe and I would rate them not any better than Sony WRT interest in photography.
    This is some of the worst commentary I have read in this thread.
    Europe like America is not the whole world. To rate them low just because you don't like their sales structure only in Europe is just ridiculous.
    Ricoh is one of the few companies to post on their website pages about their Engineers who ARE photographers explaining the design of the GR Digitals and the enjoyment from their work. Ricoh like Fuji bring out firmware after firmware improving the functionality of their camera even after the model has been replaced, and they do this time after time. I rarely see anything like this from C/N.

    If using your standards of judgement about manufacturers who care about photography, then we should all be using Fuji.
    Last edited by Tim; 15th September 2015 at 17:31.

  26. #126
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    Your gorilla has lost a lot of weight lately.
    That is natural. The transition from film to digital is over and DSLR cameras were already more than good enough five years ago so the market is saturated. If photography was only a hobby for me, I would still be using a D700 only, or a GH3.

    The mirrorless market is getting saturated as well. You can buy anything from pocket sized cameras to technical monsters that do excellent images as well as 4K video. Those who own an A7 II, a GH4 or an E-M1 have little need for upgrade. Although some are still going from DSLR to mirrorless, the trend must have slowed down to a virtual halt if you read the statistics, and some, like me, have actually gone back.

    Those who wait for the final transition due to some exceptional technical improvement may have to wait for a long time. Electronic viewfinders will become better, but they are already very good. The problem is that they will always represent an artificial curtain between the photographer and the subject. Batteries will become better to, and power consumption may be reduced, but an LCD will never consume less power than a pentaprism.

    DSLR cameras are improving too of course, making the competition harder. The D810 was a surprisingly large step from the D800, and one year after, it's still a camera that is very hard to beat when it comes to total usability.

    Add to all this the fact that I suspect an increasing number of people are getting fed up with consumerism. They want other values in their lives than shopping. When the equipment they just upgraded to hasn't contributed dramatically to the photography experience in several generations of cameras, spending the money on other things, like travel or food, is more tempting. The marketing departments will of course do what they can to tempt the infidels, but to me, it looks like they are running out of steam. They keep repeating themselves.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 15th September 2015 at 19:20.
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  27. #127
    Senior Member f/otographer's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    So after someone gave me a polite explaining of what Jack most likely meant by his post and my possible (or actual) over reaction to it, I hereby retract any statement that I will be leaving GDPI. And thanks to the users who pm'd me asking not to leave, especially over something so silly. However, I still believe that one should be judged on the quality of ones postings. Not the quantity. Any troll can spam out post after post. Forums are full of them, including this one.

    Now back to business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This is, if my memory serves me right, what an 800 lbs gorilla looks like:

    I don't think this graph shows anything that anyone here is not aware of. Traditional DSLR's are outselling mirrorless by a wide margin. And it clearly shows where we have been but does not paint a clear picture of where we are heading. Now speculating on the future is just that, speculation. But it would be hubris to believe that the status quo will be maintained irregardless of any outside forces acting upon it.

    So here is how I interpret this chart. First of all, you have a relatively new mirrorless technology (like within the last 5-8 years or so, 11 if you count the Epson digital RF) going up against a market of entrenched digital imaging machines which had their beginnings back in the film days of the mid 80's. And an important fact not be overlooked is that mirrorless FF cameras exploiting high quality EVF's and all sorts of interesting and new technology have been available for just about 2 years. Talk about a infant David product going up against the entrenched giant of Goliath DSLR's.

    Of course the DSLR will show current market dominance over the new product. How could it not? It will continue to do so for many, many years to come as a majority of professional photographers are using these cameras as their bread and butter machines. But if you put your ear to the ground or your eye to the keyhole (or whatever silly metaphor you like) and actually listen to the subtle clues then you can begin to posit that a change is not just coming, but beginning right here, right now. The easy clue that anyone should get is that once technology is out of the bag, there is no way in hell to put it back in. Take the EVF for example. Most diehard pro photogs today (and there have been several in this thread) say that there is no way they will choose an EVF over an Optical. And there is nothing wrong with that. But we are forgetting the up and coming generation of photographers who will replace us. The ones going to school for photography right now. Or in high school right now. Or in elementary school right now. They will not be weaned on the subtleties of the optical VF and will instead expect the best that technology has to offer them. They have also grown up, I mean from the get go, with a cell phone or tablet in their hand. They are familiar and comfortable with little TV screens in their hands and when these photographers mature into the market place I wager that most of them will want to see another little TV screen when they look into their camera, along with all of the useful information and exposure options clearly visible. These photographers will expect professional quality mirrorless cameras.

    What is also interesting about this chart is that mirrorless is holding its own. While the compact market has tanked and people rely on cell phones as their primary imaging device sale of mirrorless are doing quite well. Im pretty sure the market is driven more by enthusiasts at this point but the number of pros who are making the switch, and doing so publicly, is increasing. Just google it. There has also been quite a lot of discussion on the force of mirrorless in the prof market recently on many podscasts. If you don't already listen to the TWIP podcast (This Week In Photo) then I highly recommend it.

    Change is coming whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not. I have to accept the fact that my next high end mirrorless will probably have 4k, which I neither need nor want.

    I don't expect anyone to share my view on this. I am not trying to convince anyone that this camera is better then that one, or that my version of the future is 100% gonna happen. It is what I believe, and you are neither required nor expected to share it. But I do fervently hope that Canon will enter into the mirrorless market soon with a high end device supported by Canons legendary service. I cant say this loudly enough....I believe Canon can build a better mirrorless system then Sony and I want it in my hands now.

    Here's an idea. How about everybody interested in Canon (or Nikon) making a pro level mirrorless chime in with a wish list of what you would like to see. And I mean anything...form factor, sensor type(FF or crop), lenses, flange distance....whatever you can think of. And I suppose it doesn't even have to be limited to Canon or Nikon.

    I want to see Fuji skip the whole FF thing and go straight to a pro level mirrorless medium format camera with great set of prime lenses in something about the size or a little bigger then an a7. Talk about my dream camera.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    DSLR cameras are improving too of course, making the competition harder. The D810 was a surprisingly large step from the D800, and one year after, it's still a camera that is very hard to beat when it comes to total usability.
    Seriously? The single "surprisingly large step" being a shutter mechanism that doesn't spray oil on the sensor? That's HUGE!

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    What surprises me about those that don't like mirrorless is they are happy to make an image using an optical viewfinder but they only ever look at the resulting output on an LCD screen or on paper. But they don't want to look at a LCD screen to make the image while using the camera?

    How often do you look at the final image output using an optical viewfinder? A: Never.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    What surprises me about those that don't like mirrorless is they are happy to make an image using an optical viewfinder but they only ever look at the resulting output on an LCD screen or on paper. But they don't want to look at a LCD screen to make the image while using the camera?

    How often do you look at the final image output using an optical viewfinder? A: Never.
    I much prefer reflected via mirror or rangefinder view - because it is clearer/cleaner/crisper/sharper - I do appreciate some of the benefits of EVF though - focus peeking and amount of information ala HUD can be useful and no mirror CLUNK can be a real bonus...it all depends on what one is making a photograph of where the exact benefits/costs actually fall ...

    I do believe that a camera has idiosyncratic utility to each user - different marginal utility for each feature benefit according to individual indifference curves..

    however all that being said ( basically - photographers as opposed to gear fetishists) will and do use what they like using...

    I think your point above hilarious. What does a monitor looking at an image have to do with the capture process ? Nothing. Or are you accusing people who prefer optical finders of some form of techno retardation - ludditism? Funny dude very funny.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/image-presentation/


    I do like the picture of the week idea

    Well do something about it...

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I much prefer reflected via mirror or rangefinder view - because it is clearer/cleaner/crisper/sharper - I do appreciate some of the benefits of EVF though - focus peeking and amount of information ala HUD can be useful and no mirror CLUNK can be a real bonus...it all depends on what one is making a photograph of where the exact benefits/costs actually fall ...

    I do believe that a camera has idiosyncratic utility to each user - different marginal utility for each feature benefit according to individual indifference curves..

    however all that being said ( basically - photographers as opposed to gear fetishists) will and do use what they like using...

    I think your point above hilarious. What does a monitor looking at an image have to do with the capture process ? Nothing. Or are you accusing people who prefer optical finders of some form of techno retardation - ludditism? Funny dude very funny.
    I am glad there are a few laughs for you here. Often I click away from this site dejected.

    Peter I am in no way making any accusations of any kind. What I typed was about me and my understanding.
    I've been a photographer for over 40 years and used OVFs for a looong while.

    For ME,The monitor has plenty to do with the process as a whole digitally. To separate them is just silly to ME. ME, I can't seriously separate the monitor OR paper from the image. Whats the point of making images if you don't look at them? I can't see your resultant images using an OVF can I?

    I love the X100, great camera IMO, slow focus and all. But when using the OVF I got this lovely clear image (no argument there) during the taking process only to be less impressed with what I saw on my LCD afterwards. In other words it was not WYSIWYG. For ME this ruined up my expectations. The OVF is a tool but it in no way can anyone argue it accurately represents the final output. I occasionally use a OVF but now have to adapt my expectations, its less accurate FOR ME.

    I am very much in the "what suits you, use it" crowd.
    Users can use what they like and I am happy for them. But I'll enjoy their output on.... A monitor or paper not a OVF.
    I'm out of this thread from here on....

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well do something about it...
    I'm not the programming guy here. Lol
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 15th September 2015 at 19:18.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by f/otographer View Post
    Change is coming whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not.
    Oh? Really? Not for me. If I don't like the change, I don't buy into it. That "whether we like it or not" thing is something corporations try to convince us about, and very successfully so. For me, that has stopped in most areas. I decide what changes I'm going to adapt, and if my current supplier insist on change that I don't want, I change supplier. When conservative suppliers are drive out of the market, which very nearly happened with Leica a few years ago, I buy second hand (which I mostly do anyway).

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post



    Seriously? The single "surprisingly large step" being a shutter mechanism that doesn't spray oil on the sensor? That's HUGE!
    You're thinking about the D600/610. The D810 brought:

    - Less noisy shutter (and much less noisy than most mirrorless shutters, in spite of flip-flopping the mirror)
    - Better low ISO, extended down to ISO 32
    - Better video with much better auto ISO for video
    - Low contrast option
    - Improved ergonomics
    - Better AF with the option of clustered AF points

    etc.

  36. #136
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by f/otographer View Post
    So after someone gave me a polite explaining of what Jack most likely meant by his post and my possible (or actual) over reaction to it, I hereby retract any statement that I will be leaving GDPI. And thanks to the users who pm'd me asking not to leave, especially over something so silly. However, I still believe that one should be judged on the quality of ones postings. Not the quantity. Any troll can spam out post after post. Forums are full of them, including this one.

    Now back to business.



    I don't think this graph shows anything that anyone here is not aware of. Traditional DSLR's are outselling mirrorless by a wide margin. And it clearly shows where we have been but does not paint a clear picture of where we are heading. Now speculating on the future is just that, speculation. But it would be hubris to believe that the status quo will be maintained irregardless of any outside forces acting upon it.

    So here is how I interpret this chart. First of all, you have a relatively new mirrorless technology (like within the last 5-8 years or so, 11 if you count the Epson digital RF) going up against a market of entrenched digital imaging machines which had their beginnings back in the film days of the mid 80's. And an important fact not be overlooked is that mirrorless FF cameras exploiting high quality EVF's and all sorts of interesting and new technology have been available for just about 2 years. Talk about a infant David product going up against the entrenched giant of Goliath DSLR's.

    Of course the DSLR will show current market dominance over the new product. How could it not? It will continue to do so for many, many years to come as a majority of professional photographers are using these cameras as their bread and butter machines. But if you put your ear to the ground or your eye to the keyhole (or whatever silly metaphor you like) and actually listen to the subtle clues then you can begin to posit that a change is not just coming, but beginning right here, right now. The easy clue that anyone should get is that once technology is out of the bag, there is no way in hell to put it back in. Take the EVF for example. Most diehard pro photogs today (and there have been several in this thread) say that there is no way they will choose an EVF over an Optical. And there is nothing wrong with that. But we are forgetting the up and coming generation of photographers who will replace us. The ones going to school for photography right now. Or in high school right now. Or in elementary school right now. They will not be weaned on the subtleties of the optical VF and will instead expect the best that technology has to offer them. They have also grown up, I mean from the get go, with a cell phone or tablet in their hand. They are familiar and comfortable with little TV screens in their hands and when these photographers mature into the market place I wager that most of them will want to see another little TV screen when they look into their camera, along with all of the useful information and exposure options clearly visible. These photographers will expect professional quality mirrorless cameras.

    What is also interesting about this chart is that mirrorless is holding its own. While the compact market has tanked and people rely on cell phones as their primary imaging device sale of mirrorless are doing quite well. Im pretty sure the market is driven more by enthusiasts at this point but the number of pros who are making the switch, and doing so publicly, is increasing. Just google it. There has also been quite a lot of discussion on the force of mirrorless in the prof market recently on many podscasts. If you don't already listen to the TWIP podcast (This Week In Photo) then I highly recommend it.

    Change is coming whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not. I have to accept the fact that my next high end mirrorless will probably have 4k, which I neither need nor want.

    I don't expect anyone to share my view on this. I am not trying to convince anyone that this camera is better then that one, or that my version of the future is 100% gonna happen. It is what I believe, and you are neither required nor expected to share it. But I do fervently hope that Canon will enter into the mirrorless market soon with a high end device supported by Canons legendary service. I cant say this loudly enough....I believe Canon can build a better mirrorless system then Sony and I want it in my hands now.

    Here's an idea. How about everybody interested in Canon (or Nikon) making a pro level mirrorless chime in with a wish list of what you would like to see. And I mean anything...form factor, sensor type(FF or crop), lenses, flange distance....whatever you can think of. And I suppose it doesn't even have to be limited to Canon or Nikon.

    I want to see Fuji skip the whole FF thing and go straight to a pro level mirrorless medium format camera with great set of prime lenses in something about the size or a little bigger then an a7. Talk about my dream camera.
    All this would make sense if the mirrorless market didn't look increasingly saturated. The curves of mirrorless mostly follow those of DSLR, and that's a very bad sign for manufacturers of mirrorless cameras. With lower production numbers (lower total sales volume and higher number of suppliers), plus probably higher development costs, that means lower profit if any at all for Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji and Samsung. The only reason why mirrorless cameras survive in the market at all is probably because it represents a tiny niche for the companies involved. It's not even close to being their core business. The disadvantage is that it's an easy product to ax if the going gets tough.

    Remember also that, although Canon and Nikon are very small players in the mirrorless market, they do make mirrorless cameras, and at least in Nikon's case, they are rather advanced. That means that they have done their homework and continue to develop the concept. If the market changes, they will be able to come up with a product with a larger sensor relatively fast. I have predicted earlier that this could happen within the first half of 2016. Then the question will be: If Canon and Nikon both launch full frame mirrorless cameras that are as good as or better than the Sony A7R II and with adapters that offer full compatibility with older lenses, what will Sony do then? Their market share in the mirrorless market would be reduced overnight to a tiny fraction of what it is today, since it would be no point for current Canon and Nikon users to buy a Sony camera due to compatibility issues with legacy lenses. Their mirrorless camera division will be fighting for their survival, plain and simple.

    Maybe Sony users should be happy for the status quo.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Oh? Really? Not for me. If I don't like the change, I don't buy into it. That "whether we like it or not" thing is something corporations try to convince us about, and very successfully so. For me, that has stopped in most areas. I decide what changes I'm going to adapt, and if my current supplier insist on change that I don't want, I change supplier. When conservative suppliers are drive out of the market, which very nearly happened with Leica a few years ago, I buy second hand (which I mostly do anyway).
    I think you misunderstand me. I meant change is coming to the established markets due to continued advancements in technology and a changing (over time) user base. Which doesn't take a crystal ball to predict, just common sense. And you are entirely right. The personal choices you make can always, to an extent at least, mitigate the effects of change from larger, external forces. People still shoot with film and how many times have we heard 'film is dead'? Hell, people still shoot with collodion wet plates....
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    All this would make sense if the mirrorless market didn't look increasingly saturated. The curves of mirrorless mostly follow those of DSLR, and that's a very bad sign for manufacturers of mirrorless cameras. With lower production numbers (lower total sales volume and higher number of suppliers), plus probably higher development costs, that means lower profit if any at all for Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji and Samsung. The only reason why mirrorless cameras survive in the market at all is probably because it represents a tiny niche for the companies involved. It's not even close to being their core business. The disadvantage is that it's an easy product to ax if the going gets tough.

    Remember also that, although Canon and Nikon are very small players in the mirrorless market, they do make mirrorless cameras, and at least in Nikon's case, they are rather advanced. That means that they have done their homework and continue to develop the concept. If the market changes, they will be able to come up with a product with a larger sensor relatively fast. I have predicted earlier that this could happen within the first half of 2016. Then the question will be: If Canon and Nikon both launch full frame mirrorless cameras that are as good as or better than the Sony A7R II and with adapters that offer full compatibility with older lenses, what will Sony do then? Their market share in the mirrorless market would be reduced overnight to a tiny fraction of what it is today, since it would be no point for current Canon and Nikon users to buy a Sony camera due to compatibility issues with legacy lenses. Their mirrorless camera division will be fighting for their survival, plain and simple.

    Maybe Sony users should be happy for the status quo.
    I don't know if I quite buy into the 'mirrorless is saturated' idea very strongly right now. Sure, there are plenty of choices to choose but the variety in those choices are staggering. You want a really compact, small sensored camera with a great line up of lenses. Then buy into Micro 4/3. How about apsc with a great lens selection and the ability to use speedboosters for vintage lenses. Fuji has you covered. How about Full frame mirrorless in your choice of budget friendly, resolution beast or Jedi Master see in the dark? Step right up to the Sony booth sir they have all three.

    I do see where you are coming from though, and I don't expect all of the models/makers to survive a Canon or Nikon pro level revolution. No tears shed there, that's just business. But I firmly believe any saturation that may be in the market will be displaced as more users make the choice to use a mirrorless camera instead of a DSLR. We are in the beginning leg of that now and the going is slow, but over time I believe the migration from DSLR will more fully fill out the ranks and mirrorless will not be so niche. Every single advancement in our craft starts out as niche but slowly, to a lesser or greater degree, supplants the technology it is superior to or was made to replace. From fully manual film cameras to electronic cameras with auto exposure modes, from manual focus lenses to auto focus lenses, from film to digital...this analogy especially. The pundits of the day thought digital would never, could never replace film as the main form of image creation. There were just to many issues with it and it would never possibly resolve as well as film.

    And here we are.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Digital cameras were disruptive technology that changed photograph forever, with much lower cost and better quality as a result. Mirrorless offers a smaller body and a different viewfinder and not much more. The sales development of mirrorless is very similar to that of tablet computers, another product that set out to revolutionise the world, but is being pushed from the below by great mobile phones and from above by smaller, lighter laptop computers that run circles around them when it comes to performance.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    You're thinking about the D600/610. The D810 brought:

    - Less noisy shutter (and much less noisy than most mirrorless shutters, in spite of flip-flopping the mirror)
    - Better low ISO, extended down to ISO 32
    - Better video with much better auto ISO for video
    - Low contrast option
    - Improved ergonomics
    - Better AF with the option of clustered AF points

    etc.
    You're right (every once in a while ). I was confusing the D600/610.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
    The only thing that matters, is if I can get my hands on a Zeiss Batis 25mm. I am starting to think it is a figment of my imagination.


    Why am I posting this here? Good question, I have no idea.......
    A bit OT but my desire for the Batis 25mm has evaporated with the long wait and two things have lead me to cancel my pre-order. Firstly, the 24mm end of the 24-70 which I now use a lot. A versatile lens and good results stopped down. Secondly, I just obtained a FE 2/28. What a beauty of a lens. Awful RAW distortion but fully corrected in LR and the colouration from this lens is lovely. What the 35/2.8 should have been. I may be tempted by 25/2 when they finally become widely available but I am hoping in the meantime Zeiss or Sony will announce a fast 21mm prime which is what I really want.

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  42. #142
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This is, if my memory serves me right, what an 800 lbs gorilla looks like:

    I wonder what the breakdown of this chart would be?

    For example, is GoPro counted amongst the Mirror-Less statistics? If the answer is yes for what is touted as "the top selling camera in the world", then there can't be much left for all the other mirror less models.

    http://gizmodo.com/how-the-gopro-bec...wor-1462288770

    All that aside, a quick search of top selling cameras reveals that Canon and Nikon already make the more popular mirror-less cameras. So, if we divvy up the Mirror-less sector into cameras suited for advanced amateurs or Pros (like the A7 stuff from Sony), I suspect they'd barely be a blip on that chart … in the same way that a D810, Canon's latest 5D, or any pro spec DSLR would probably barely register on this chart, if at all.


    Personally, I like this fellows' even handed take on the subject at hand:

    http://www.slrlounge.com/dslr-vs-mir...f-photography/

    If one buys into that POV, then it seems co-existence is the foreseeable future.


    Optional read: my personal approach to the subject:

    Frankly, I do buy into co-existence, and that is my current state of trimmed down photographic gear as I retire/transition from semi-pro, to mostly personal photography. If I still shot weddings/events, I'd overwhelmingly be equipped with dual card DSLR gear sporting sophisticated lighting features. The Sony A7R never really made the cut.

    My current kit: One B&W Leica mirror-less rangefinder with an OVF, one Sony A7R Mirrorless with EVF … one Leica S DSLR with an OVF (and a second S camera coming). Oh, and I can't exclude the iPhone. So, my eggs are not all in one basket, and I still like the notion of "Horses for Courses". In very few cases can one "system" fully take the place of the other.

    The S camera is dual shutter, shoots to two cards, and has the biggest, cleanest and most realistic view-finder … neither of the others can do all that. I can use my Leica M 21/1.4 on the A7R without the clunky aux viewfinder that the M camera requires, and it is high res without the size of the S camera. The rangefinder provides a unique content oriented view of the world unfettered by focal length effects other than framing that the other two SLRs cannot. The iPhone wins based on … immediacy, being there, and instant sharing … so it always wins when high-aesthetics or making prints are less important. When I shoot with the Leica MM, the companion to it is the iPhone for the inevitable "color snap" opportunities that may arise while on a "serious" B&W hunting trip.



    "How often do you look at the final image output using an optical viewfinder? A: Never."

    I quess that's the difference between needing to confirm what you are doing with the camera, and intuitively knowing. I think EVF cameras are a really cool teaching aid, but as far as being representative of what may get printed later, it hardly ranks as being better or worse than OVF.

    - Marc

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Marc: I believe that list only contains mirrorless cameras with exchangeable lenses. I'm not sure if rangefinder cameras are included, but my guess is that they aren't, and that doesn't really matter, since the volume is so low anyway.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Jorgen, a question on the graph (you seem to be adding these stats, so I hope you know the basis).

    What you see in July 2015 is the green line at ~300.000 units and the orange line at ~1.000.000 units.

    Does this mean there is a total of 1.000.000 units sold, of which 300.000 mirrorless and 700.000 DSLR (as stacked graphs) or is it 300.000 mirrorless sold vs. 1.000.000 DSLR's (two independent graphs using the same axis).

    Hope you can help with this.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Jorgen, a question on the graph (you seem to be adding these stats, so I hope you know the basis).

    What you see in July 2015 is the green line at ~300.000 units and the orange line at ~1.000.000 units.

    Does this mean there is a total of 1.000.000 units sold, of which 300.000 mirrorless and 700.000 DSLR (as stacked graphs) or is it 300.000 mirrorless sold vs. 1.000.000 DSLR's (two independent graphs using the same axis).

    Hope you can help with this.
    Based on statistics that I've seen previously that these graphs are built on, it's 300,000 plus 1,000,000. The graphs appear on several websites now and then, but I believe they origins from a company in Germany that I can't remember the name of at the moment. It's a part of a much more extensive set of graphs.
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  46. #146
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?


    Do the Graphs perhaps origin from CIPA ?

    http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201507_e.pdf
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  47. #147
    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Do the Graphs perhaps origin from CIPA ?
    http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201507_e.pdf
    Thanks Jorgen and Steen, the numbers in the linked CIPA table indeed look very much like what's in the graph. According to the table it's 331.567 mirrorless vs. 967519 DSLR's in July 2015.
    Bottom line, Non-reflex Interchangeable lens camera's is about 1/3 of DSLR shipments looking at January - July 2015 as a 6 month period.
    It seems the 800 lb gorilla is happily enjoying his bananas

  48. #148
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Hi,

    I would say I agree with your analysis.

    What I would add is that Canon can enter the market at a time of their choice. They are the leader in interchangable lens cameras. They can let Sony make the mistakes and do it right the first time.

    I would think that Sony is the main actor in that market, as they are the only ones using full frame sensors. That said, smaller sensors make a lot of sense.

    Regarding megapixels, I don't think you can have to many. With each technology we have some kind of optimum. Having more pixels is helpful in handling demosaic artefacts. Eventually, it may be possible that when we arrive at say 200 MP, simple bilinear interpolation may be good enough. In that case the in camera processing may be able to produce a 50 MP raw file without artefacts, while today's 16-80 MP raw files need advanced demosaic methods, making raw conversion a slow process. Jim Kasson has made some research on this and found that around two microns are needed for balanced performance on lenses like the Otus and we are quite a bit from that.

    One of the reasons Canon can and should wait is that no one right now knows the optimum form factor for mirror less.

    Sony A7 is a great success, but it is a small camera with big lenses. Does it has the right dimensions for the bayonet. Some smaller models are smaller than the bayonet, while the bayonet may be to crowded for a full frame sensor with large aperture lenses. So Canon can sit out Sony's mistakes and develop their systems once they see what sells.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by f/otographer View Post
    Apparently, quietly in the corner. Or even not at all. Which are not the traditional answers to this question.

    I would like to discuss the 800lb gorilla that is not in the room. And by this I mean the seeming overwhelming reluctance of Canon to enter into the mirrorless market in any type of serious manner. The lackluster M/M2/M3 jokes notwithstanding.

    Now you may think I am a bit silly to be posting a Canon question in the Sony forum but wait. There is method to the madness. For one thing I want to get the opinions of a serious cross section of mirrorless users who are experienced with this new technology and have shown themselves capable of producing beautiful art with it. That would be the majority of the Sony users here. For another, the Canon part of this forum gets very little play and I don't feel the answers from that forum alone would be as insightful or as well rounded as I am looking for.

    I have actually been pondering Canons lack of seriousness concerning mirrorless cameras for some time now. I really love Canon as a company and have been anxiously awaiting for them to release a new from the ground up, kick *** mirrorless camera for some time now. A camera system that would compete head to head with the ever strengthening onslaught that is the a7 line. But month after month, year after year there is seeming apathy on the part of Big Red.

    Then a few days ago the new hits. Canon is coming out with (soon) a 120mp DSLR. That's right....120mp. DSLR.

    Now at first I wanted to praise Canon a little bit for having the balls to so greatly leap ahead in the MP war with both feet first. But as the news has sunk in over the last few days and I have really thought about it and there is something very much wrong with this.

    Here's the problem. For Canon to seriously enter the mirrorless market with a new, professional quality mirrorless camera they are going to have to do something that they simply wont do. They are going to have to give up their current dominance of their lens line (think all those hundreds of EOS lenses) and start over with a new mount and a new line of lenses like everyone else has done. And the very thought of that is probably giving them fits. The sheer amount of R/D which will need to be spent to bring them up to even a fraction of their current lens choices might not even be in the company budget with the way the economy has been going.

    So what is an 800lb gorilla to do to stay relevant against the stronger and stronger oncoming tide of Fuji X's and Sony Alphas? What can they possibly do save their treasured DSLR's and the total lens dominance they now have in their hand.

    Why, they simply need to come up with a new sensor for the old camera and give it some stoopid amount of megapixels. Say around 120 or so. That should do it.

    Im sorry, but I see this a Canons complete misreading of the next decade of camera design. Mirrorless is here to stay, DSLR's are anachronistic machines that are on the way out. Will they hang around for several more years in a last gasp of life? Yes, I truly believe they will. There are to many pros still using them and to be honest they do get the job done. But the problem is that DSLR have basically matured as a platform. Whereas mirrorless is just at the beginning of its development cycle and has decades or research and advancements ahead of it. EVF's will get better and better, auto focus systems will mature, etc etc.

    I think that Canon has blinders on and really believes that they can pull out this dog and pony show of 150mp while smiling and saying "See world, look at how cool DSLR's are. They are all the camera you will ever need". It is so much easier to do this then it is to actually sit down and design a new camera with a new set of lenses. The danger in being this moribund is that you will alienate your userbase by not having interesting and fresh new designs like the competition does.

    And, on a technical side, have they considered what the 220mb files that this new camera produces are going to be like to work with? My god, the memory cards alone.....And lets not forget how even now high end machines can struggle with photo processing. Imagine the computing power you will need on your desk to work with files of this size. I have also read an interesting article suggesting that with such a high MP count diffraction is going to raise its ugly head much earlier in the aperture range then normal. Like say, around f/4. I seriously don't think Canon has thought this thru all the way.

    Anyway, I would really like to hear everyones thoughts on Canon and their reluctance to produce a serious mirrorless camera. Again, I don't mean the M3. I mean getting serious about maturing a mirrorless camera line which has all the perks, designs and expectations of a professional level camera. Much like what Sony seems to be doing with the a7 line.

    There is no reason that Canon cannot go head to head with Sony in this market. They are simply choosing not to.

    Lets hear what you think.

  49. #149
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?


    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Thanks Jorgen and Steen, the numbers in the linked CIPA table indeed look very much like what's in the graph. According to the table it's 331.567 mirrorless vs. 967519 DSLR's in July 2015.
    Bottom line, Non-reflex Interchangeable lens camera's is about 1/3 of DSLR shipments looking at January - July 2015 as a 6 month period.
    It seems the 800 lb gorilla is happily enjoying his bananas

    You are welcome, Pegelli

    Here's another link with some more CIPA graphs that clearly indicate the use of independent graphs using the same axis (not stacked).

    Camera sales, May 2015 data, ??????????? - Personal View Talks
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  50. #150
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Do the Graphs perhaps origin from CIPA ?

    http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201507_e.pdf
    You are probably right, Steen. The "German confusion" probably comes from the fact that I first saw these data published via Photokina a year or three ago.

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