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Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

M

mjr

Guest
Haha, you are of course right Louis, why on earth would anyone value the skill of knowing how to expose based on experience when the camera can do it for you? I guess ovf will go along with manual focus lenses, I mean, how draconian to actually turn a focussing ring, ridiculous!

Misplaced sentimentality is very strong, it may be true for you but I can assure you that there are a lot of people who value the skill of actually producing an image based on their own actions and decisions. Surely there is a place for them and you? You may not respect that people would like to work differently to you but I don't suppose it matters too much, there is marvellous work being produced on film and much more on dinosaur slr's, far more in my opinion than a lot of images taken with the latest technology, long may it continue.

Mat
 

biglouis

Well-known member
You may not respect that people would like to work differently to you but I don't suppose it matters too much, there is marvellous work being produced on film and much more on dinosaur slr's, far more in my opinion than a lot of images taken with the latest technology, long may it continue.

Mat
Mat, of course I respect how other people work. I was being both ironic and humorous.

However, I do still believe that the OVF has had its day for digital cameras and it will disappear in the near future except for the most extreme makes, e.g. Leica.

LouisB
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I got mirrorless I got optical.

Personally all the hype about DR needs to be focused on the EVFs which are inherently poor in bright light and dynamic motion situations...

Only decent EVF at the moment is the Gratical from Zacuto ... I am toying with the idea of adding it to my stills cameras not just my video.

I will take the OVF any day and use the LCD for live view focus if I really need to nail it.

I did Fuji Ricoh Sony ... Nikon Leica S and now am back with a number of those white lenses from Canon as they meet my perceived needs.
Like DPAF and tracking face recognition AF in live video. A decent 100 - 400 IS II at less han 7500 dollars. Say what you want color science in
Canon products is close to perfection ... the Nikon 810 approaches it ... Leica S closer with great presence and midtone separation.

I imagine that if you got rid of all the product discussions and focused on art this place would be a ghost town ... as it is easier to have an unsubstantiated
expert opinion on a piece of plastic than it is to perfect one's vision and achieve the same. And I am a hack so I tend not to discuss either any more than necessary.

Perhaps getting Guy Tal, Huyless, Chris, Marc, Guy and Jack to lead us into deeper discussions concerning life, perception, reality and art might give us
a better subforum than all of the divergent got my new chip ephemerata that reigns supreme at the moment.

Oh just because Canon has not answered the lemmings chasing after a new idea should not imply that when they devote time and effort to it that they will not have a very coherent product. The C300 Mk II is a stunning example of biding their time and delivering a product which will be a commercial success ... not so much for Canon but for those who have to produce daily.

Just because the new iPhone has 4K does not mean one can base a business model on it .

Bob
 

dandrewk

New member
The American auto industry analogy holds, as well as the analogy with Kodak. But only if the manufacturers in question (Canon, Nikon) don't wake up and smell the 21st century.

More to the point, DSLR's are more similar to film cameras. There will be many years where they will still be around, but only a very tiny niche market. We are at the beginning of the mirrorless "revolution", and already are clearly seeing the trend. ALL innovations are coming in mirrorless cameras, and that trend will continue and escalate. Just look what Sony has been able to accomplish in a few short years.

It's a simple matter of economics. As more mirrorless becomes popular (led by the progression of "new" photographers getting hooked by photography with improved smart phone cameras) more manufacturers will jump in. Economies of scale, along with more innovations, will make mirrorless cameras much cheaper to design and build. The costs go down, the retail prices go down, more folks can afford these cameras and so on. DSLR's have none of these advantages.

This applies to all areas of the market, from rank beginner to seasoned pro.

I have nothing but respect for Nikon and Canon. I was a confirmed Nikon user since my earliest days of photography. It's time for those guys to stop relying on brand loyalty to sell their old technology.
 

uhoh7

New member
Canon user here.

I've no desire for mirrorless. None. The times I did briefly use the Sony's I wasn't impressed and once you add some decent lenses, native or otherwise there is much less of a weight advantage than you'd think.
Good post, Chris. There could be a great size/weight advantage, however with some different design choices. To me the Sonys are manic cameras, with brilliant aspects and utterly lame ones which show Sony as somewhat deaf to real world pro shooting.

I like how people go crazy over them and try to get the best out of them. I admire many A7 shooters. No one can deny Sony is leading in innovation for FF today. The downside is a series of beta-cameras which are inconsistent in execution.

What accounts for the difference you are seeing? Sony EVFs, while much better than in the past, still need work. Handling is meh compared to Canikon FF, aside from weight. Controls are not so well thought out. RAWS are way behind, a scandal. High performance lens choices are very limited in comparison. No 24-85ish 2.8 constant in native? Real money lens there in a wedding.

But a real effort could produce a spectacular new system based on a short register with latest EVF, like you see on Leica Q. And Leica shows, when it comes to lenses, small can be great. Sony's thickly covered sensors don't favor that though. EVIL could be a pathway back to a sensible M6-like or even Barnack footrpint, and a stable of very small fantastic lenses.

Maybe they are just being polite, opening the door.....but no one seems to want to walk through. :face smack:

Those who relish OVF (Leica is moving on to EVF as well) should enjoy and make full use of what they cherish.
I think as long as we live Leica will offer OVF. They will add EVF alternative, a la Q. But once you are used to a modern M finder, you only crave EVF when things get too wide. I go back and forth all the time. At first I actually preferred the A7 EVF. But once I practised with the RF, the advantages begin to shine. Now in all circumstances I am more accurate and faster OVF than I can manage with the Sony TV. The OVF is also much easier on the eyes. I've had many a Sony headache, never a Leica one. :)
 
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Slingers

Active member
I think Canon and Nikon aren't serious because of what happened to Sony. Starting with SLT, which I see as the first step to mirrorless, Sony only ever cannibalised their own market share. Before the A7 series was probably the low point of their market share. Now they have gained back what they lost though and the latest cameras are priced to take advantage of the new market share gain they are having in the DSLR video market that canon created.

I wonder what Canon will do with the 5D IV to stop this hybrid video market moving to Panasonic and Sony. I don't know if Canon has the sensor technology to compete with the full sensor readout patents Sony are able to use from the Aptina agreement. Sony is moving so fast no matter what Canon does it will be obsolete from a video point of view.

If Canon gets serious about mirrorless it will be because of video.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I think as long as we live Leica will offer OVF. They will add EVF alternative, a la Q. But once you are used to a modern M finder, you only crave EVF when things get too wide. I go back and forth all the time. At first I actually preferred the A7 EVF. But once I practised with the RF, the advantages begin to shine. Now in all circumstances I am more accurate and faster OVF than I can manage with the Sony TV. The OVF is also much easier on the eyes. I've had many a Sony headache, never a Leica one. :)
It is not just the EVF but the real "TV" (LCD) and live view (you need to upgrade to the M10) that is amazingly useful for low light captures. Of course, limited high ISO possibilities in M cams suit the OVF. :LOL:
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
Mat, of course I respect how other people work. I was being both ironic and humorous.

However, I do still believe that the OVF has had its day for digital cameras and it will disappear in the near future except for the most extreme makes, e.g. Leica.

LouisB
I wholeheartedly agree.

EVF's need work, but the irreversible direction of travel is away from OVF and toward EVF.

Think also of studio product and food photogs who shoot tethered and hardly use their viewfinders at all, checking composition, lighting, exposure all on a computer screen.

Technology marches on. For example, try the amazing eye focus on a Sony A7RII, with confirmation in the viewfinder.

There's no going back.
 

dmward

Member
History is littered with the shells of companies that tried to hold onto the status quo while the marketplace moved forward.

All the focused amateurs and professionals that frequent fora represent a small percentage of the marketplace for the camera manufacturers. The only thing a product manager cares about is the ability for their product to generate revenue and profit for the company.

Marketing managers have to try to anticipate market movement and plan for products that will keep revenue and profits on track.

The real gorilla in the room is market evolution. Its inevitable that mirrorless will gain market share. How fast it will happen with high end cameras is the question.

We are poor market planners because of our prejudices.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I wholeheartedly agree.

EVF's need work, but the irreversible direction of travel is away from OVF and toward EVF.

Think also of studio product and food photogs who shoot tethered and hardly use their viewfinders at all, checking composition, lighting, exposure all on a computer screen.

Technology marches on. For example, try the amazing eye focus on a Sony A7RII, with confirmation in the viewfinder.

There's no going back.
The eye AF is really amazing. Just think it will even get better
 

Tim

Active member
I have given away every Sony camera I have ever bought - including the A7R - that makes 5 toy cameras I have bought to see what all the fuss is about - had a good look chuckled and gave away - so there is no elephant or mouse in my room.:grin:
Let me know if you want me to drive to Melbourne to collect the next one you give away. :grin: :LOL:
 

Jim DE

New member
I am from the world of manufacturing management in a global market and the worst thing we could ever do as a top tier corporation was to not innovate, cut costs, and push new product development. There is an old atage in industry "that if you are not moving forward you are falling behind!"

Now, my industry wasn't camera's but the philosophies are the same for all manufacturing in todays global market. I don't have a thing to say about mirrorless and Canon as I know nothing about what other camera companies other than Sony are doing and frankly really don't care. I will say that if any company thinks it can stand on its reputation and not improve, cost reduce, and innovate it's directors will eventually have to explain some very direct tough questions from its stock holders in many very ugly board meetings explaining their lost stock value and revenue. There are few absolutes in this world but this is one of them in modern manufacturing. If this shoe fits any camera manufacturer then no matter who they are they are headed for disaster if they don't change.
 

uhoh7

New member
It is not just the EVF but the real "TV" (LCD) and live view (you need to upgrade to the M10) that is amazingly useful for low light captures. Of course, limited high ISO possibilities in M cams suit the OVF. :LOL:
I would have made the same argument, before I got used to the M9. Now I call the Sony LCD "Liar TV" :cry: You can't tell a thing from it unless you use the mag. The little M9 Display is way better to check focus, albeit after the fact. In low light noise abounds in the Sony EVF and the peaking is a terribly annoying distraction for general framing: to me today. I know many are just fine with it.

The OVF is noiseless and highly accurate, though of course you still miss some at 50/1.1

As to ISO I do not care for the A7 over 800 either, though of course it's better up there than the M9. Not better at all than the M240 though, nor are any Sonys except the A7S models. And, the Q seems alot better than the other A7 models with a good MP count.

I would really like a Kolari A7s......with 16 or 18 mp ;)

Today I feel the RF is not at all obsolete. You get a crystal view in all light, and no prism restricts the flange dimension. But it's expensive for a good one.

My dream machine would have an extra EVF window inboard of the OVF. Just for the UWAs and non-coupled lenses. It would be no larger than the M6.

Another modern feature which is not calling me often is the high MP. I fell for it with the A7r. Today I feel 18 is close to perfect, with a single exception. Cropping. But I very rarely do. In fact I work hard not to. If you don't crop anything over 24 MP is a disadvantage because you have tiny pixels with their issues, and are downsizing like mad with every image.

Now, I can see it with wildlife photography, and would not mind a extra high MP body just for that work. But as a day to day shooter, for me, no. 5K is perfect. Others have different priorities which I respect and enjoy :)
 

4season

Well-known member
I think it was not obvious to Nikon or Canon that they needed to get serious with mirrorless systems: They are the DSLR market leaders, and it's not surprising that they tried "safe" mirrorless systems, with the hope that these users would ultimately graduate to SLRs. Canon even tried a tiny SLR: The Rebel SL1.

Just what is the state of the market these days? I'm guessing that it's like home hifi in the late 1980s: Becoming irrelevant to a lot of people. The most loyal audience? Well-to-do men of a certain age. Ones with the ability and desire to buy high-end, high-margin products. They tend to want cameras that look like their (1960-1970ish) idea of a serious camera should look like, hence a tendency towards SLR-like form factors in traditional colors.

Same thing appears to be happening in the automotive world hence the very retro American muscle cars.

The kids might be mostly a lost cause as far as camera and car makers concerned: Phones, phone-related items, action/adventure cameras and the occasional film camera (including Fujifilm's Instax) seem to suffice for that demographic. Along with car-sharing, mass transit and whatever hand-me-downs they can get.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Let me know if you want me to drive to Melbourne to collect the next one you give away. :grin: :LOL:
I've got a few nephews and nieces to go mate - trying to pass on the photography bug to extended family now that I have set my daughters up - still I'll keep in you mind...if you are sure you can put up with the lousy EVF ? At 4K+ though you might have to shout a beer or two.:D
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Trying to stay on topic to the OPs original question:

Q: Why hasn't Canon forged ahead with mirror-less? A: They didn't have to, and probably still don't have to.

Q: Why is Sony forging ahead with mirror-less? A: Because they had to.

Sorry for the long reply, but it has been one hell of a trek …:facesmack:

Sony acquired Minolta, which positioned itself as innovative for its day ("From the Mind of Minolta"). After a number of so-so crop frame consumer cameras in the Sony Alpha line, they launched the A-900 … a 24 meg FF camera with near pro-level specs and an interesting choice of Zeiss designed optics. Not a full array of pro level focal lengths, but enough to lure a few serious amateurs and professionals away from Canikon. I was one of those photographers. However it wasn't enough to make a dent in the marketplace. So to survive, Sony had to take a different competitive path. They had to. Necessity is the mother of invention.

When Sony realized that to survive they had to change, they did … to the detriment of their newer user base like me. No more OVF, it was an SLT or mirror-less with EVF, and they altered the innovative Minolta flash mount to standard ISO mount thus all but rendering my expensive A-900 flash system and pass-through TTL radio gear useless. The viewfinders were horrible, and smeared like crazy in low light when following moving subjects. Then comes the tiny FF Alpha EVF FF cameras with a different mount, bewildering menus, and an anemic lens line-up. The fortune in A mount lenses I already had could work using the expensive Rube Goldberg style LAEA-4 adapters that were, and still are, a ridiculously awkward solution. To keep the FE lenses at least somewhat smaller and able to work on the FF sensor, the FE lenses tended to be slow maximum apertures. I was astounded that people ignored all this. The 24-70 and 70-200 work-horse focal length for wedding/event/corporate photographers offered horrible W/A distortion, and a slow f/4 max aperture. Now that faster max aperture primes are starting to become available, most are huge, so the over-all size difference is a lot less obvious … and the balance is crappy thus fatiguing to use all day.

My experiences with Canon and Nikon was that (even with Jurassic era OVFs) they worked at "the speed of thought". See it, capture it. Fast max aperture lenses abounded so I could choose what DOF I wanted, including almost none. Plus, Canikon always gets the latest 3rd party innovations with Sony the starving step-child … like with Profoto's TTL mobile flash systems. I honestly can say that relevant innovation not been the case with any of the Sony cameras, especially the A7R. All of them lagged the over-all performance of the Canikon offerings. In that respect, switching to Sony actually effected my output, and not in a good way.

I've since unloaded my A99 and all of the A mount lenses. BTW, IF they had been Canon or Nikon, I could have quickly recovered more of my investment. "A" mount is a dog in the marketplace. Next camera dump will be the slow-witted A7R which is also a dog in the marketplace.

Q: What is in store for the future? A: Haven't a clue, and don't really care since I have to make photos now.

I'm not a Canon or Nikon fan boy, but in hindsight I can say I wish I had NOT swapped systems, or at least had the presence of mind to get out of Sony when they abandoned the A-900, which was a decent camera that could have been great.

Sony may overwhelm the marketplace eventually, but I doubt it. I think cell phones have/or will, and Go Pros, and some other mind bending consumer innovation. Consumers still buy DSLRs for their more serious family stuff … a $750 Canon Rebel is not in danger of being usurped by a Sony A7 for twice+ that amount. Pros that move to Sony are an anomaly, Other than here on GetDpi, I do not know one other wedding/event/portrait/commercial photographer that uses Sony. None. Serious Amateurs/Semi-Pros may be the prime target if this forum is any indication, but I've not seen Sonys being brandished at family gatherings, camera clubs, by wedding guests, or shutter bugs at public events … none.

So, this forum may not be representative of the marketplace. There are a lot of wonderful photographers here. They did great work before moving to Sony, and would continue doing so if they moved to some other brand.

Canon may not get much action on GetDpi, but maybe that's because Canon shooters are out making photos, earning a living, or are a natural everyday part of some family's record keeping rather than writing some long winded reply like this one of mine … :ROTFL:

- Marc
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Thank you Marc for this real reality check.

Also, the A7rII on second hand market will be a dog. I do not see, in any A7 guaranty, that it will be serviced during 10 years. Any Nikon/Canon above "consumer" products is granted to be serviced during ten years. Same goes for the lenses, maybe more years. This is not the case with Sony. They just smile when ppl drop 3,5 Grands into one of their products.

In the other hands, the next serious move from Sony should not be in technology but in servicing. ALL can change if they grow balls and build international 10 years service for serious cameras and lenses.

I might be wrong but I think we will never see that :D

This is why Canon and Nikon do not care. They know they was, still are and will be (for a cetain amount of time) the first choice, just because of the seriousness of their service, one crucial point when acquiring such expensive items. PPl who do not care spending 3.5 thousand of dollars or Euro are just few.

Sony might also make a study on second hand market of their ancient products. A mint A850 / A900 is a FAR more serious asset than any A7 to date. Why ?? ;)

About OVF, again, I don't know if some of you ever went into VR or AR (Virtual/Augmented Reality) event ? Have you ever seen what is Augmented Reality and what can be projected onto even a translucent plan ? With what I see since 2 or 3 years in this discipline, I do not think OVF will die yet.

Please, take some times to read the overall conclusion of this SONY camera, some of you might smile :

Sony Alpha DSLR-A900 Review: Digital Photography Review
 
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Jim DE

New member
I do agree that for the masses cellphones and go pro type cameras will hold the vast majority of the photographic consumer market. This is a reality as they are convenient, cost effective, sufficient for most user needs in a digital social media world. These will become better and cheaper and establish themselves as the new norm for photography.

We can all talk the virtues of this or that camera or design but look around at us or for that matter most any photo club or society in the USA: it is loaded with oldtimers and very few young people. The pro photography professions are dwindling, equipment costs are absurd ($3000 for a 70-200 f2.8 really?) and out of touch with what people can reasonably afford for a hobby in today's economy, and all forms of interchangeable lens camera's don't fit into the masses lifestyle's of fast easy and pocketable.

The dwindling pro market in the future will only keep the what we revere as a photographic tool being produced in very limited and extremely costly quantities. The argument of SLR vs mirrorless or OVF vs EVF is just something us old coots can occupy time discussing till we checkout. Photography with the masses today has moved in a new direction and through number of sales alone make our arguments moot and humorous when looking at the big picture for the future. Maybe Canon has seen the writing on the wall and realize going mirrorless will not change their future either way..... None of these manufacturers are idiots. They pay big money for market research and expected trends. Some try and get every drop out of a market others accept that new directions will keep them viable in the future. Look at Sony and the real under lying path they are establishing ... Sensor development and global sales. Cellphone, go pro, interchangeable lens cameras, or what ever captures light digitally in the future will have some sort of sensor doing this work. A possible future that will continue no matter what device is selling best. Maybe their camera market is nothing more than a showroom for future sensor sales to other companies and a product reliability and performance testing ground?
 
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