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Thread: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

  1. #1
    Senior Member f/otographer's Avatar
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    Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Apparently, quietly in the corner. Or even not at all. Which are not the traditional answers to this question.

    I would like to discuss the 800lb gorilla that is not in the room. And by this I mean the seeming overwhelming reluctance of Canon to enter into the mirrorless market in any type of serious manner. The lackluster M/M2/M3 jokes notwithstanding.

    Now you may think I am a bit silly to be posting a Canon question in the Sony forum but wait. There is method to the madness. For one thing I want to get the opinions of a serious cross section of mirrorless users who are experienced with this new technology and have shown themselves capable of producing beautiful art with it. That would be the majority of the Sony users here. For another, the Canon part of this forum gets very little play and I don't feel the answers from that forum alone would be as insightful or as well rounded as I am looking for.

    I have actually been pondering Canons lack of seriousness concerning mirrorless cameras for some time now. I really love Canon as a company and have been anxiously awaiting for them to release a new from the ground up, kick *** mirrorless camera for some time now. A camera system that would compete head to head with the ever strengthening onslaught that is the a7 line. But month after month, year after year there is seeming apathy on the part of Big Red.

    Then a few days ago the new hits. Canon is coming out with (soon) a 120mp DSLR. That's right....120mp. DSLR.

    Now at first I wanted to praise Canon a little bit for having the balls to so greatly leap ahead in the MP war with both feet first. But as the news has sunk in over the last few days and I have really thought about it and there is something very much wrong with this.

    Here's the problem. For Canon to seriously enter the mirrorless market with a new, professional quality mirrorless camera they are going to have to do something that they simply wont do. They are going to have to give up their current dominance of their lens line (think all those hundreds of EOS lenses) and start over with a new mount and a new line of lenses like everyone else has done. And the very thought of that is probably giving them fits. The sheer amount of R/D which will need to be spent to bring them up to even a fraction of their current lens choices might not even be in the company budget with the way the economy has been going.

    So what is an 800lb gorilla to do to stay relevant against the stronger and stronger oncoming tide of Fuji X's and Sony Alphas? What can they possibly do save their treasured DSLR's and the total lens dominance they now have in their hand.

    Why, they simply need to come up with a new sensor for the old camera and give it some stoopid amount of megapixels. Say around 120 or so. That should do it.

    Im sorry, but I see this a Canons complete misreading of the next decade of camera design. Mirrorless is here to stay, DSLR's are anachronistic machines that are on the way out. Will they hang around for several more years in a last gasp of life? Yes, I truly believe they will. There are to many pros still using them and to be honest they do get the job done. But the problem is that DSLR have basically matured as a platform. Whereas mirrorless is just at the beginning of its development cycle and has decades or research and advancements ahead of it. EVF's will get better and better, auto focus systems will mature, etc etc.

    I think that Canon has blinders on and really believes that they can pull out this dog and pony show of 150mp while smiling and saying "See world, look at how cool DSLR's are. They are all the camera you will ever need". It is so much easier to do this then it is to actually sit down and design a new camera with a new set of lenses. The danger in being this moribund is that you will alienate your userbase by not having interesting and fresh new designs like the competition does.

    And, on a technical side, have they considered what the 220mb files that this new camera produces are going to be like to work with? My god, the memory cards alone.....And lets not forget how even now high end machines can struggle with photo processing. Imagine the computing power you will need on your desk to work with files of this size. I have also read an interesting article suggesting that with such a high MP count diffraction is going to raise its ugly head much earlier in the aperture range then normal. Like say, around f/4. I seriously don't think Canon has thought this thru all the way.

    Anyway, I would really like to hear everyones thoughts on Canon and their reluctance to produce a serious mirrorless camera. Again, I don't mean the M3. I mean getting serious about maturing a mirrorless camera line which has all the perks, designs and expectations of a professional level camera. Much like what Sony seems to be doing with the a7 line.

    There is no reason that Canon cannot go head to head with Sony in this market. They are simply choosing not to.

    Lets hear what you think.
    Last edited by f/otographer; 13th September 2015 at 10:08.
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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Canon user here.

    I've no desire for mirrorless. None. The times I did briefly use the Sony's I wasn't impressed and once you add some decent lenses, native or otherwise there is much less of a weight advantage than you'd think.

    When I've shot weddings with other photographers who use mirrorless they do a much better job with a DSLR. One guy I work with uses a D750, a7s and a7rii and the D750 images are much better composed and emotional. To the point I've asked him to use that from now on. I put this down to the machine between the shooter and the photo.

    Perhaps Canon knows and understands this. There is the M series which is mirrorless but it's not something they're pushing or trying to push right now. Don't confuse the Sony noise with actual noise. Any professionals I know who use the A7 series tend not to rave about it and I fully expect them to do back to full OVF over the next 6 months to two years.

    But also cost. Irrespective of the cost to market a whole new lens line up and develop the thing, Canon also has to have a viable marketplace in a time when camera sales are way down. Maybe Sony isn't scalping the market, perhaps they really need to charge that much for the A7 series. They aren't the most profitable company in the world after all.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    But what if this 150MP super sensor is the gorilla's "all singing all dancing" answer ?
    Suppose it is as good as the orang-utang's latest BSI sensor ?

    Well ?

    Bart ...

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Where is Jorgen when you need him?

    IMO I believe you only really need three maybe four lenses to launch a new mount.
    The Contax G proved this. 28/45/90. The Mamiya 6 and 7 also. While the Bronica 645RF was no raging success it did also launch with three.
    Even the Fuji X mount didn't have many on launch. Anyone recall?

    From what lens history I know, a single talented lens designer can get the lens design job done. Its the manufacturing engineers that probably need a department.

    So Canon with its muscle can do it, but the issue for a Canon mirror less to succeed is up to the marketing department listening to the customer.
    They also have to consider IF they want to poach their own DSLR sales. Maybe there is little incentive to this while DSLR sales are good.
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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    One of best ways to innovate is to keep improving the same stuff while everyone is doing the same 'new thing' elsewhere.
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Indeed, I have noticed all sorts of innovation coming from Canon. It's really a technological achievement to make virtually no "improvements" to a camera, slap a different number on it and still get folks to believe it's "new". :roll eyes:

    There is no mystery to the method of Canon's antiquated marketing strategy. We've seen it before. It is virtually identical to the US auto industry in the early 70's. Sit, twiddle thumbs, keep producing slick ads and depend on the loyalty of users who are deeply rooted in their ecosystem. We saw what happened in the 70's, and the same will happen here.

    Nikon isn't much better. The longer they sit and wait, the more mirrorless makers will steal market share. If they don't develop something real quick, they are in danger of becoming sad examples of arrogant management.
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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Indeed, I have noticed all sorts of innovation coming from Canon. It's really a technological achievement to make virtually no "improvements" to a camera, slap a different number on it and still get folks to believe it's "new". :roll eyes:

    There is no mystery to the method of Canon's antiquated marketing strategy. We've seen it before. It is virtually identical to the US auto industry in the early 70's. Sit, twiddle thumbs, keep producing slick ads and depend on the loyalty of users who are deeply rooted in their ecosystem. We saw what happened in the 70's, and the same will happen here.

    Nikon isn't much better. The longer they sit and wait, the more mirrorless makers will steal market share. If they don't develop something real quick, they are in danger of becoming sad examples of arrogant management.


    Why isn't Canon doing the same as everyone else?

    A - Because that would be stupid.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Yes, but they ARE doing the same thing as everyone else, and they've been doing it for decades. In fact, I can't think of a single thing they've done recently that has already been done thousands of times before.

    They need to wake up or they will become "the camera my Dad used". Photography is like not unlike any other industry/profession/hobby. You change with the times or become a dinosaur. From looking at recent market trends, their ship is in the harbor, waiting to sail into the land of irrelevancy.

    That's it, I'm all out of metaphors.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Indeed, I have noticed all sorts of innovation coming from Canon. It's really a technological achievement to make virtually no "improvements" to a camera, slap a different number on it and still get folks to believe it's "new". :roll eyes:

    There is no mystery to the method of Canon's antiquated marketing strategy. We've seen it before. It is virtually identical to the US auto industry in the early 70's. Sit, twiddle thumbs, keep producing slick ads and depend on the loyalty of users who are deeply rooted in their ecosystem. We saw what happened in the 70's, and the same will happen here.

    Nikon isn't much better. The longer they sit and wait, the more mirrorless makers will steal market share. If they don't develop something real quick, they are in danger of becoming sad examples of arrogant management.
    i more than agree ! canon is a deaf and ignorant company . i never every had the feeling that they are interested in others opinion or feedback. the only care how many white lenses you can see at a sport event. the rest of professionals are treaded like second class user. i really hoped that when canon finally offers a high mp camera they will also have adequate lenses in their line up but this also didn´t happen. in europe canon is in deep trouble, sales had broken down 30% and more in some countries but this does not change their attitude.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    One of best ways to innovate is to keep improving the same stuff while everyone is doing the same 'new thing' elsewhere.
    from wiki :


    Innovation is a new idea, more effective device or process.[1] Innovation can be viewed as the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, inarticulated needs, or existing market needs.[2] This is accomplished through more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term innovation can be defined as something original and more effective and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society.[3]


    so how does this apply for canon ?

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Since I'm on forums, I always seen people bashing Canon. I'm Nikon user because I started with Nikon and I'm used to the OVF and the ergonomic. In the other hand, I really want to jump on Canon camp because of the lenses. I never ETTR my shots (and I do not think I'm a crappy photographer IMHO ;p) and prefer contrasts. This whole Dynamic Range drama ppl are putting on Canon shoulder is more and more ridiculous. The more I get knowledge the more it look ridiculous. I envy a lot of canon lenses, TS, f1.2 with AF, awesome 135... and the actual cameras are just superbly balanced. If ppl want more DR out of a canon sensor, they bracket. Super video, very good sensor, very good colours, true 14 bit raws and, most importantly, very good price !! compared to today sony offering ... no, it is not funny.

    I also like to share my work. If I go canon I will be very alone on forums; maybe not on FM but here it is dead.

    Concerning mirrorless cameras ... I do not really care about it. The only Mirrorless camera I find attractive is the old RX1, if you forget the initial price This was the bait from Sony. "Look what we can do !!! look how it is refined, solid, a real achievement...". Some PPL bought it, got dazzled because yes, the RX1 is that good, seen the A7 announcement, took the bait (really ?? ^^), sold the RX1 to go A7 and then regret having sold the RX1 because A7 is nowhere near in therm of quality, at all level. Now they are on a system, bought other iterations of this gadget mirrorless platform, blogers/salesmen jumped in the wagon now it is mandatory to have a mirrorless because it is the future of photography and you are NOT COOL if you do not shoot this way. You are a dinosaur.

    I said I understand ppl who got the A7r / A7rII to use it as a very advanced digital back. At this level, yes, it is awesome, very useful, yielding more consistent results especially in landscape. Hopefully, photography is not only landscape (tanks God !!) so this argument is a niche argument. MF still the king of the field.

    Concerning the 120MP canon sensor, if it is real one day, it will be somehow a game changer in the way we see photos. It will be a game changer with their new printers and inks because you'll go almost real even in prints. 120MP is close to human eye definition. If you have the options for HIGH, MED and lOW, it's ok, and it will be very cool. If some continue to trust that the key is in ISO and DR ... that's ok. This is not my opinion.

    My opinion about weight (size isn't a problem, after all) is that some ppl really don't like weight. For them, one Kilo of gear is too much (but yet they like new Milvus offering !! WTF ???? ^^). The key is in the materials. Canon and Nikon do have some special materials, Carbon/plastic/resins composites. They really need to put the marketing on it, and prove the world that it is better than magnesium or aluminium. We also have titanium. They can also work on a O/EVF. Holographic projection / 3D projection of informations inside the pentaprism.

    I know that in the future, a lot of actual Sony participants will jump into an another camp, big time, and many post on this forum will be kind of ridiculous
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    One of the reasons I do well in business is that I stay true to my core and don't apply every new trend or look to my work.

    Turn that towards Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, Fuji et al and the mirrorless market is already saturated. Mirrorless cameras are nice enough but generally expensive for their target market, especially en mass. Especially Sony. Sony made a consumer camera and are asking a crazy amount of money for it. Like WTF Sony.

    I think innovation can be termed in a business sense too, not just as a physical product. If all the manufacturers are chasing / forcing mirrorless onto consumers they'll be taking their eye off the DSLR ball by spreading their development resources too thinly. I don't touch mirrorless because quite openly I'll admit they're all crap for professional use.

    By Canon doing nothing (that we know of) it might well be the most innovative thing they could be doing right now. At least I know with Canon when they release a product it does what it says it will do and does a great job of it. Canon users know this, it's why we stay.

    A couple of years ago there was this huge buzz around Fuji and somewhere, sometimes I might hear Olympus mentioned. Now it's all Sony, Sony, Sony. I wonder how Fuji and Olympus are doing now. Probably ok, but there's no wind in their sales like I was used to seeing.

    Big business is a long game. Canon aren't Kodak and they certainly aren't idiots.

    From a DSLR point of view they may not have the best DR but they sure as hell have the best colours, AF system and I can happily use them for professional use and it's like when folks say the Canon 5Dsr isn't much of an improvement over the 5D3 - It's a massive improvement. They just improved on an already pretty perfect camera.

    Or you could say they're innovating elsewhere by displaying their new real life printers, 120mp sensor, 8k video and that they'll get back to DSLR's and mirrorless shortly. I guess they're kinda busy right now.
    Chris Giles Photography
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    In my opinion, the idea that all photographers want the same thing is ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as saying that dslr's are on the way out or that evf's are the future. I have tried many evf's and for me personally they are awful compared to a decent ovf. I have been reading for at least the last couple of years that evf's are getting close or are good enough, it may be surprising to hear that for me, good enough is not good enough! I don't need a evf to show what's in focus, I don't need a evf to show me what is over or under exposed, I need a viewfinder to compose with and there is nothing better for me than a good ovf. Others like different things and it's great when they find what they like or what works for them but honestly, it's not everyone!

    What I think is perfect is utilising a ovf for framing and really looking at a scene, and then the option of seeing exactly what the sensor sees, which is a dslr, you have live view and ovf. Technology moves forward, there is always innovation which is a good thing but to think that the latest is the best is absurd.

    I have a friend who is an excellent photographer, his macro work is unbelievable, he has picked up a 5ds and his pictures are just stunning, not enough dr sounds like an excuse for not producing good images to me, when the dr is higher then it will be because there is no evf, then when that comes it will be because there aren't enough mp's, it's never ending.

    I wish people would just accept that there are different needs and requirements and a huge array of products to suit everyone, just get on with it!

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    One of the reasons I do well in business is that I stay true to my core and don't apply every new trend or look to my work.

    Turn that towards Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, Fuji et al and the mirrorless market is already saturated. Mirrorless cameras are nice enough but generally expensive for their target market, especially en mass. Especially Sony. Sony made a consumer camera and are asking a crazy amount of money for it. Like WTF Sony.

    .
    Why does use of an EVF instead of a mirror change the purpose of a camera? The answer, of course, it that it doesn't, its simply an alternative. There is no mirror in a 5x4 field camera.

    The mirror has been, until recently, a necessary evil required to enable dslr photographers to focus. When a better way is found to do the same job, without all the vibration, noise etc, then the mirror becomes redundant. That is where mirrorless comes in.

    It is inevitable that all "35mm" and MF cameras (if these terms have much meaning anymore), save possibly for a small niche market, will be mirrorless and that includes Canon. Same happened when digital replaced most film. Right now, Sony have a huge head start.
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    A friend of mine, who took up photography about two years ago and has had a few informal lessons from me and then gone on to do a course, recently decided that he wanted to move up a grade from the Gh3 kit I sold him when he started. He was just off on holiday and wanted to make a quick decision so he called me for advice as to what he should buy.

    I talked him through the A7RII, the D810 (both of which I know pretty well) and the 5DS R (which I had never even seen, let alone held, but I used to have a 5D and 5DII).

    I basically said, ignore the Canon: it has low DR and as a relative newb, a lot of DR will cover your arse. I then said that the D810 was IMHO capable if used optimally of slightly better results than the Sony but that this would be only under rare under specialised circumstances and that for the great majority of his use cases, he would get better results with the Sony. I also said that many of my favourite lenses at the moment are only available for the Sony, and that for travel, which he does a lot, he would get a much lighter kit with the Sony.

    He thanked me for my help, and a few days later arrived in Bali and started sending me photos he had taken with his new 5DS. I had forgotten to tell him about the difference between the R and the base model, so he didn't know to consider that choice.

    The reason he purchased the Canon was simple: it has more pixels. That's mostly it. He also likes the way if feels, "less like a toy" he said.

    He's a bright guy and has a good eye but the thing is, pixels are tangible. To someone who does't really understand the enormous intricacies of these things, he bought the V12 rather than the V8. He's young and strong and thinks he can carry any amount of kit though he clearly hasn't yet really thought through the issues with cabin baggage allowance and so on. He doesn't really 'get' DR because he isn't advanced enough yet. And Canon is a big and well known camera brand whereas to him, Sony simply isn't.

    Of course there's no right or wrong choice - but I do think this will turn out to have been the wrong choice for him (though I didn't say that!) but I learn one thing from all this. Brand names still matter, form factor can still impress for the wrong reasons and for a lot of people, pixel count trumps all.

    I think Canon can run this way for quite a while yet. I also think they know that if sales go off a cliff, they can do an A7RII-alike with a new mount and that Zeiss et al will quickly cough up New Canon Mount versions until Canon themselves can flesh out the line.

    Then there are the pros like Chris above, whose experience is that the mirrored format just creates better images for them. I disagree, and I think that's largely because of the type of work he does, but it is his experience and his cash.

    Canon's not in any real danger. I don't think the 70's US Auto manufacturer analogy holds. I think they've done the market research and that they have a plan B. But I do think they'd be selling a lot more cameras if they thought differently.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Tim, why do you think it will be the wrong decision for him? Do you not think that he will be absolutely blown away every time he looks at an image he takes with the 5ds compared to his gh3? Of course he will, it's a massive step up. Most "normal" people will buy a camera to take pictures with, not to constantly compare against other cameras and second guess their choice, I would suggest that he will love the 5ds and take more shots with it because of the investment and the return he gets when he looks at the images. I really hope he's not going to go online and try and compare the shots he takes against others and wonder how extra dr would have helped his shots and will rather just photograph stuff with it.

    As for travelling with a camera, I have never personally understood why people look for smaller, lighter and in "some" cases, compromised kit for travel, when I visit places I may never see again or experience a life that is not like my own, I want the absolute best I can use to capture those images regardless of weight or bulk, why on earth save the good but possibly heavier kit for what you see every day? Makes no sense to me at all, obviously I'm not daft enough to think my opinion is the same as others, just the way I see it.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Everyone is different. I have no advice for large companies, but:

    Pictures I have missed because of:
    Insufficient DR: 0.1 % ---- Solution: Sony Sensor
    Insufficient ISO: 1% ---- Solution: Sony Sensor
    Bad Focus: 15% ---- Solution: Canon 1Dx
    Lack of Vision: 50% ---- Solution: Take classes, shoot more, (give up?)
    Sitting at Computer: 99% ---- Solution: Get motivated

    The obvious best step is whatever gets me out of the house. That means a system I don't hate using. No spec sheet on earth can really even influence that beyond a temporary "wow, this camera can see through walls!" rush.

    Sure, a lot of you are photographers who are so solid in your vision and purpose that 1 extra stop of DR or high ISO adds materially to your photographic output or enjoyment. I'm not there and probably will never be. If Sony wanted to keep photographers like me, they'd put more effort into ergonomics and an AF system that can match a 10 year old Canon on moving subjects.

    --Matt
    Last edited by MGrayson; 13th September 2015 at 04:24.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    I have given away every Sony camera I have ever bought - including the A7R - that makes 5 toy cameras I have bought to see what all the fuss is about - had a good look chuckled and gave away - so there is no elephant or mouse in my room.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    This new Canon sensor is not even full frame according to the specs that were published. It is supposedly an H size sensor (slightly larger than APS-C) and if that is correct I can't imagine what problems the high pixel density might create. Did I mis-read the specs or is this really a small sensor with very high pixel density? Reminds me of the TruColor sensor in my Nokia 1020 cell phone with much smaller 41 MP sensor but also very high pixel density. The nokia produces nice images that can rival APS-C sensor image quality so if Canon uses similar TruColor processing technology then a 120MP H size sensor might be interesting indeed.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I have given away every Sony camera I have ever bought - including the A7R - that makes 5 toy cameras I have bought to see what all the fuss is about - had a good look chuckled and gave away - so there is no elephant or mouse in my room.
    There is a true Sony supporter!
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?



    Batis 85 2.8 using Eye AF. Go look in the menu for that on your Canon. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Canon is a dinosaur and they are not going to go serious mirrorless and compete with themselves nor is Nikon. ITS ABOUT MONEY
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    This new Canon sensor is not even full frame according to the specs that were published. It is supposedly an H size sensor (slightly larger than APS-C) and if that is correct I can't imagine what problems the high pixel density might create. Did I mis-read the specs or is this really a small sensor with very high pixel density? Reminds me of the TruColor sensor in my Nokia 1020 cell phone with much smaller 41 MP sensor but also very high pixel density. The nokia produces nice images that can rival APS-C sensor image quality so if Canon uses similar TruColor processing technology then a 120MP H size sensor might be interesting indeed.
    You are referring to the Canon 1D mk IV sensor size.

    The 5DS/R is a "full frame" 24x36.

    Even though most of my cameras are full frame, it is incidental to my choices and not a must have.

  24. #24
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by fmueller View Post
    You are referring to the Canon 1D mk IV sensor size.

    The 5DS/R is a "full frame" 24x36.

    Even though most of my cameras are full frame, it is incidental to my choices and not a must have.
    No, I'm referring to the new 120 MP H size sensor prototype camera.
    Also see here
    Last edited by scho; 13th September 2015 at 06:42.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post


    Batis 85 2.8 using Eye AF. Go look in the menu for that on your Canon. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    Thanks Guy. That's a great shot.

    With Eye AF and a little practice it's easy to nail these kinds of shots, I find.
    In your hands your Zeiss Batis lens really shines on your A7r2. Congratulations.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Response deleted. Tired of brand bashing.

    Take care,

    Matt

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Response deleted. Tired of brand bashing.

    Take care,

    Matt
    I agree with your point. I think the OP's post is silly.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    My Sony A7R2 with IBIS, Eye Detect AF, EVF, and 4K video does so many things no Canon and no Nikon can do even without bringing the whole mirror/mirrorless and size questions into play that I would choose it anyway.

    It is just, in my opinion, a better and more advanced camera.

    When you add in the benefits of mirrorless and small size and low weight it simply becomes even more attractive but those are not the primary advantages to me of the A7R2. Notice I did not say smallest and lowest weight. I think people can construct low weight systems from Canon and Nikon although I believe the size may be harder to match.

    Sony is also providing lens choices that even mighty Canon is not. I don't see a real Canon answer for the 35/1.4, the 90/2.8 or my Noctilux. Of course, Canon has many lenses that are unique to its mount.

    Then there is the sensor. For me, it is the best balanced sensor ever made. Insane resolution, DR and both bright light and low light capabilities make it the overall champion. I don't expect it to be the best sensor for long. But, for now, Sony is the one pushing sensor technology faster than anyone else and I think they will keep doing that for some time.

    Those sensor advantages turn directly into better images for me. Others, with different requirements, will never care about high ISO banding or will find work arounds. It's not like Canon images are lousy.

    So where does Canon sit in a room?

    In my opinion, away from Sony, unable to match the technology. Sure, Canon could make a mirrorless system and sell it with all that Canon marketing muscle. But, the Sony technology train is a real thing and Canon can't just snap their fingers and negate it in one fell swoop.

    -Bill
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    He doesn't really 'get' DR because he isn't advanced enough yet.
    I'm advanced, have my pics around the web, sell print even in China, and do not get this DR war either. There is numerous well known (FAMOUS) landscape photographers who use Canon. It's kind a bad thing to insult them, because I see that as a sort of pedant insult. Pardon me if I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Sure, a lot of you are photographers who are so solid in your vision and purpose that 1 extra stop of DR or high ISO adds materially to your photographic output or enjoyment.
    I look at this forum and others, days after days. I do not see ppl improving their skills at all and pictures do not wow me more and more. In fact, I'm looking into old threads because some old threads and picture just wow me. You might try, it's cool
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 13th September 2015 at 07:32.
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    One of best ways to innovate is to keep improving the same stuff while everyone is doing the same 'new thing' elsewhere.
    Isn't that what Kodak did?

    Obviously just kidding a bit and I don't think the move from a mirrored to a mirrorless camera is as disruptive as from film to digital.
    Based on peoples needs and preferences there's room for both, no right or wrong here.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Isn't that what Kodak did?
    That is not what they did. They innovated and others improvised (it can happen to Sony as well if the same corporate culture is emulated).

    Their demise is not due to lack of innovation.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Doesn't IBM still successfully sell mainframes? Speaking of dinosaurs.
    So, DSLRs will be around for a long time as well.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    I'm advanced, have my pics around the web, sell print even in China, and do not get this DR war either. There is numerous well known (FAMOUS) landscape photographers who use Canon. It's kind a bad thing to insult them, because I see that as a sort of pedant insult. Pardon me if I'm wrong.



    I look at this forum and others, days after days. I do not see ppl improving their skills at all and pictures do not wow me more and more. In fact, I'm looking into old threads because some old threads and picture just wow me. You might try, it's cool

    I have to disagree with you here. I look at the Sony fun threads and there are just some outstanding Art being produced but more than that I came from 5 medium format backs and I'm a real expert in that area of file and IQ coming from those sensors. The first day I shot this A7rII and you can look back on my posts. I said this out of all the 35mm digital cams I shot this is absolutely the closest thing to MF yet and I was talking about the look of the file. It's for lack of a better word smooth and does not have that digital feel to it. I'm thrilled by this more than anything. No Canon or Nikon I have shot has this smooth transitions in the tones and has a nice delicate look to it out of the box. Even the pedestrian shot of my grandson above just has a very delicate look to the file and I sharpened it which if I didn't it be even smoother. I just never got this with other cams even Sonys. This cam reminds me very much in file to the old 1DS which was lovely coming off the sensor than the screwed it up.

    Now I was not trying to bash Canon by any means . Just goofing off this morning. I don't bash anything as I may have to buy it the next day. Besides what's the point but in regards to Canon and Nikon as well they are so entrenched in the DSLR systems that anything they really would do at this point in time going full boat mirrorless is would really competing with themselves. There still is a big market for DSLR type cameras and yes mirrorless is the new tech but I don't see it taking over the DSLR market as fast as some would think. It's got some shelf life to it. They do have a issue in terms of Sony though and until this last RII cam hit the streets they had the major AF advantage and I think they still do in a way but this new Sony is a quantum leap forward in AF. I'm actually quite shocked how good and accurate it is. This could possible hurt canon , Nikon down the road. Not this RII per say but the next generation coming from Sony. Sony is very agressive and they want to play in the market.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Guy. That's a great shot.

    With Eye AF and a little practice it's easy to nail these kinds of shots, I find.
    In your hands your Zeiss Batis lens really shines on your A7r2. Congratulations.
    Thanks. BTW I loaded 10.3.3 of C1 update and it has both Batis lens corrections in it. I still need to test this throughly but even my grandsons shot you can see a visible distortion correction with the 85. I love this lens but this distortion we have to control going forward. I really need to see how it is with buildings and straight lines but everyone should update there C1.

    Sorry that was OT but needed to be said somewhere.


    Speaking of Eye AF my grandson lost his right eye at about 13 weeks to cancer in his right eye and we had to take it. Here is something really strange and I don't understand it at all. But Eye AF goes to his good eye. His natural one. Not sure what the hell technically it's reading on subject but it's really odd. This image his good eye is closer to camera but other shots straight on it goes to his real eye. Now someone explain this one to me. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  35. #35
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    I roger what you say Guy. I see the numbers on the forum and see where the interest is : Sony because of hype and MF because ... MF is MF. When I look at sony forum I see a load of threads about techniques, ppl wanting to segregate gear into the same brand (thus making numerous child threads). It is hard to decipher, hard to follow and always brand orientated.

    Personally I would like, on GetDPI forum, a general 35mm forum, where ppl can share photography with whatever gear they possess or are able to buy in the 35mm world, same for APS-C and MFT. I'm sure it would be cool, less segregationist.

    You'll see ppl nailing focus with f1.2 manual lenses on moving subjects and old DSLR in the middle of mirrorless or leica users. The goal, after all, is sharing photography and pleasure.

    IMHO it would be an extremely valuable addition to getDPI, especially in today gear extravaganza (you start to see that I do not care about gear).
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post

    You'll see ppl nailing focus with f1.2 manual lenses on moving subjects and old DSLR in the middle of mirrorless or leica users.
    Been there done that and I have moved on. Those who relish OVF (Leica is moving on to EVF as well) should enjoy and make full use of what they cherish.

  37. #37
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    I roger what you say Guy. I see the numbers on the forum and see where the interest is : Sony because of hype and MF because ... MF is MF. When I look at sony forum I see a load of threads about techniques, ppl wanting to segregate gear into the same brand (thus making numerous child threads). It is hard to decipher, hard to follow and always brand orientated.

    Personally I would like, on GetDPI forum, a general 35mm forum, where ppl can share photography with whatever gear they possess or are able to buy in the 35mm world, same for APS-C and MFT. I'm sure it would be cool, less segregationist.

    You'll see ppl nailing focus with f1.2 manual lenses on moving subjects and old DSLR in the middle of mirrorless or leica users. The goal, after all, is sharing photography and pleasure.

    IMHO it would be an extremely valuable addition to getDPI, especially in today gear extravaganza (you start to see that I do not care about gear).

    Good thoughts let's see what the admins think.


    Btw I really did wish our Canon forum was more popular we have such good people here. I think there would be a lot to offer over the usual junk we read at other places. None of us admins go out and seek members and we really never want too. Our membership is really whoever shows up. We are not a money making forum by any stretch. Not sure I even want to be, as long as we can maintain our costs through some ads it's all I care about.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  38. #38
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    I think that a lot of Canon shooters do not share just because they feel alone. Really. In a general 35mm thread we might attract them again, slowly, and I'm sure we can be very dazzled by what they have to share
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  39. #39
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Well, this has been an interesting read this morning.

    I see a lot of defensiveness coming from both sides on this and I really should have anticipated that. I thought I made it pretty clear in my OP as to how I was hoping this post would go. This is not, in any way, a Canon bashing thread. Or a 'Sony is better thread'. If anyone here thinks that is the case then you are mistaken. What I was hoping to see here is a discussion among photographic peers as to Canons lack of response in any serious way to an exciting, growing segment of the market.

    Let me say that again. Mirrorless cameras, with all of the new innovations they are pushing, are an exciting and growing segment of the market. And Canon, photographic powerhouse that they are, chooses to make only the smallest entry into this market with the M. Almost as an afterthought.

    I made it very clear in my OP that I love Canon as a company. I also love the new mirrorless technology and I experience some frustration that if I want a FF mirrorless camera (and I do) then Sony is my only option. Now it is a very fine option to be sure. But Canon brings many things to the table with their corporate philosophy and if I had my choice (and the camera is any good) then I would prefer a rugged, Canon FF mirrorless with some Canon glass attached.

    Guy, I think you hit it on the head perfectly. It is entirely about money. For all the reasons I mentioned before and some others brought up in this post. R/D, development cost, poaching of DSLR sales...all of these things factor into why Canon is not serious about mirrorless cameras at this point. Someone also brought up the advancements in printers that they are spearheading right now. I was not aware of this, and of course if Canon has its hand in too many pies they simply might not prioritize developing a serious contender for this segment until they are ready to do so. It might simply be that they do indeed know how vital this segment will be to the future of digital photography and wont bring out a camera until they know they have the time and resources to dominate. This does very much sound like the Canon of the past.

    But again, this thread is not about bashing any brand or declaring X is better then Y. So deleting your post in a tantrum or calling my OP silly is just...well, silly. If you have something constructive to add to the conversation then by all means please do so. Troll posts will be.....errr...

    Guy, I absolutely love Hulyss's idea of a forum for images that are not gear centric. I think this would do wonders for the site overall and pull us together as artists and photographers instead of shooters of this brand or that. If there is any way to have this done then you have my vote hands down and if this thread can be partly responsible for something so beneficial then it will be worth the pixels it is made of. But can we also have a small forum where all troll posts can be moved to so we can read them at leisure in all their trollish glory? Maybe entitle it "Under the Bridge"?

    Carry on please, I love what everyone has contributed.

    (p.s- edited my OP. I incorrectly stated the new Canon will be 150mp instead of the actual 120mp. Now fixed)

  40. #40
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    The only thing I have to add to this debate is that I believe in less than 10 years people will look back on optical viewfinders with the same misplaced sentimentality they have about film.

    "Man I just got this vintage Nikon D800 for forty bucks and dude it has an optical viewfinder!",
    "Radical dude, you are reaaaallly old school, my man!".
    "Yeah, it feels like so organic when I am composing my shots and I have to like work at it to visualise the impact of exposure compensation. No short cuts!"
    "Gee, I wish I had the time to go optical. Maybe I will, one day!"

    Personally, I would never buy another optical viewfinder based camera unless I was going back to film. And actually what could be cooler than an EVF on a film camera?

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Haha, you are of course right Louis, why on earth would anyone value the skill of knowing how to expose based on experience when the camera can do it for you? I guess ovf will go along with manual focus lenses, I mean, how draconian to actually turn a focussing ring, ridiculous!

    Misplaced sentimentality is very strong, it may be true for you but I can assure you that there are a lot of people who value the skill of actually producing an image based on their own actions and decisions. Surely there is a place for them and you? You may not respect that people would like to work differently to you but I don't suppose it matters too much, there is marvellous work being produced on film and much more on dinosaur slr's, far more in my opinion than a lot of images taken with the latest technology, long may it continue.

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    You may not respect that people would like to work differently to you but I don't suppose it matters too much, there is marvellous work being produced on film and much more on dinosaur slr's, far more in my opinion than a lot of images taken with the latest technology, long may it continue.

    Mat
    Mat, of course I respect how other people work. I was being both ironic and humorous.

    However, I do still believe that the OVF has had its day for digital cameras and it will disappear in the near future except for the most extreme makes, e.g. Leica.

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    I got mirrorless I got optical.

    Personally all the hype about DR needs to be focused on the EVFs which are inherently poor in bright light and dynamic motion situations...

    Only decent EVF at the moment is the Gratical from Zacuto ... I am toying with the idea of adding it to my stills cameras not just my video.

    I will take the OVF any day and use the LCD for live view focus if I really need to nail it.

    I did Fuji Ricoh Sony ... Nikon Leica S and now am back with a number of those white lenses from Canon as they meet my perceived needs.
    Like DPAF and tracking face recognition AF in live video. A decent 100 - 400 IS II at less han 7500 dollars. Say what you want color science in
    Canon products is close to perfection ... the Nikon 810 approaches it ... Leica S closer with great presence and midtone separation.

    I imagine that if you got rid of all the product discussions and focused on art this place would be a ghost town ... as it is easier to have an unsubstantiated
    expert opinion on a piece of plastic than it is to perfect one's vision and achieve the same. And I am a hack so I tend not to discuss either any more than necessary.

    Perhaps getting Guy Tal, Huyless, Chris, Marc, Guy and Jack to lead us into deeper discussions concerning life, perception, reality and art might give us
    a better subforum than all of the divergent got my new chip ephemerata that reigns supreme at the moment.

    Oh just because Canon has not answered the lemmings chasing after a new idea should not imply that when they devote time and effort to it that they will not have a very coherent product. The C300 Mk II is a stunning example of biding their time and delivering a product which will be a commercial success ... not so much for Canon but for those who have to produce daily.

    Just because the new iPhone has 4K does not mean one can base a business model on it .

    Bob

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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    The American auto industry analogy holds, as well as the analogy with Kodak. But only if the manufacturers in question (Canon, Nikon) don't wake up and smell the 21st century.

    More to the point, DSLR's are more similar to film cameras. There will be many years where they will still be around, but only a very tiny niche market. We are at the beginning of the mirrorless "revolution", and already are clearly seeing the trend. ALL innovations are coming in mirrorless cameras, and that trend will continue and escalate. Just look what Sony has been able to accomplish in a few short years.

    It's a simple matter of economics. As more mirrorless becomes popular (led by the progression of "new" photographers getting hooked by photography with improved smart phone cameras) more manufacturers will jump in. Economies of scale, along with more innovations, will make mirrorless cameras much cheaper to design and build. The costs go down, the retail prices go down, more folks can afford these cameras and so on. DSLR's have none of these advantages.

    This applies to all areas of the market, from rank beginner to seasoned pro.

    I have nothing but respect for Nikon and Canon. I was a confirmed Nikon user since my earliest days of photography. It's time for those guys to stop relying on brand loyalty to sell their old technology.
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Canon user here.

    I've no desire for mirrorless. None. The times I did briefly use the Sony's I wasn't impressed and once you add some decent lenses, native or otherwise there is much less of a weight advantage than you'd think.
    Good post, Chris. There could be a great size/weight advantage, however with some different design choices. To me the Sonys are manic cameras, with brilliant aspects and utterly lame ones which show Sony as somewhat deaf to real world pro shooting.

    I like how people go crazy over them and try to get the best out of them. I admire many A7 shooters. No one can deny Sony is leading in innovation for FF today. The downside is a series of beta-cameras which are inconsistent in execution.

    What accounts for the difference you are seeing? Sony EVFs, while much better than in the past, still need work. Handling is meh compared to Canikon FF, aside from weight. Controls are not so well thought out. RAWS are way behind, a scandal. High performance lens choices are very limited in comparison. No 24-85ish 2.8 constant in native? Real money lens there in a wedding.

    But a real effort could produce a spectacular new system based on a short register with latest EVF, like you see on Leica Q. And Leica shows, when it comes to lenses, small can be great. Sony's thickly covered sensors don't favor that though. EVIL could be a pathway back to a sensible M6-like or even Barnack footrpint, and a stable of very small fantastic lenses.

    Maybe they are just being polite, opening the door.....but no one seems to want to walk through. :face smack:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Those who relish OVF (Leica is moving on to EVF as well) should enjoy and make full use of what they cherish.
    I think as long as we live Leica will offer OVF. They will add EVF alternative, a la Q. But once you are used to a modern M finder, you only crave EVF when things get too wide. I go back and forth all the time. At first I actually preferred the A7 EVF. But once I practised with the RF, the advantages begin to shine. Now in all circumstances I am more accurate and faster OVF than I can manage with the Sony TV. The OVF is also much easier on the eyes. I've had many a Sony headache, never a Leica one.
    Last edited by uhoh7; 13th September 2015 at 15:02.
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  46. #46
    Senior Member Slingers's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    I think Canon and Nikon aren't serious because of what happened to Sony. Starting with SLT, which I see as the first step to mirrorless, Sony only ever cannibalised their own market share. Before the A7 series was probably the low point of their market share. Now they have gained back what they lost though and the latest cameras are priced to take advantage of the new market share gain they are having in the DSLR video market that canon created.

    I wonder what Canon will do with the 5D IV to stop this hybrid video market moving to Panasonic and Sony. I don't know if Canon has the sensor technology to compete with the full sensor readout patents Sony are able to use from the Aptina agreement. Sony is moving so fast no matter what Canon does it will be obsolete from a video point of view.

    If Canon gets serious about mirrorless it will be because of video.

  47. #47
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post

    I think as long as we live Leica will offer OVF. They will add EVF alternative, a la Q. But once you are used to a modern M finder, you only crave EVF when things get too wide. I go back and forth all the time. At first I actually preferred the A7 EVF. But once I practised with the RF, the advantages begin to shine. Now in all circumstances I am more accurate and faster OVF than I can manage with the Sony TV. The OVF is also much easier on the eyes. I've had many a Sony headache, never a Leica one.
    It is not just the EVF but the real "TV" (LCD) and live view (you need to upgrade to the M10) that is amazingly useful for low light captures. Of course, limited high ISO possibilities in M cams suit the OVF.

  48. #48
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Mat, of course I respect how other people work. I was being both ironic and humorous.

    However, I do still believe that the OVF has had its day for digital cameras and it will disappear in the near future except for the most extreme makes, e.g. Leica.

    LouisB
    I wholeheartedly agree.

    EVF's need work, but the irreversible direction of travel is away from OVF and toward EVF.

    Think also of studio product and food photogs who shoot tethered and hardly use their viewfinders at all, checking composition, lighting, exposure all on a computer screen.

    Technology marches on. For example, try the amazing eye focus on a Sony A7RII, with confirmation in the viewfinder.

    There's no going back.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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  49. #49
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    History is littered with the shells of companies that tried to hold onto the status quo while the marketplace moved forward.

    All the focused amateurs and professionals that frequent fora represent a small percentage of the marketplace for the camera manufacturers. The only thing a product manager cares about is the ability for their product to generate revenue and profit for the company.

    Marketing managers have to try to anticipate market movement and plan for products that will keep revenue and profits on track.

    The real gorilla in the room is market evolution. Its inevitable that mirrorless will gain market share. How fast it will happen with high end cameras is the question.

    We are poor market planners because of our prejudices.

  50. #50
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    Re: Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree.

    EVF's need work, but the irreversible direction of travel is away from OVF and toward EVF.

    Think also of studio product and food photogs who shoot tethered and hardly use their viewfinders at all, checking composition, lighting, exposure all on a computer screen.

    Technology marches on. For example, try the amazing eye focus on a Sony A7RII, with confirmation in the viewfinder.

    There's no going back.
    The eye AF is really amazing. Just think it will even get better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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