The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

A7r, A7r2 - and why I'm keeping both ...

V

Vivek

Guest
Great, I did that right from the beginning ... :p

(PP2 = standard setting for still images when not using Picture Profile)
Bart, It looks like you have not looked at the PP settings. All the parameters can be changed as you like them. It would be good to read the link K-H posted but a lot of experimentation is needed to arrive at what may like.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
Bart, It looks like you have not looked at the PP settings. All the parameters can be changed as you like them. It would be good to read the link K-H posted but a lot of experimentation is needed to arrive at what may like.
Hi Vivek,

I certainly will have a closer look at that document, but surely there must be some sort of difference between what can be achieved with the PP2 and PP7 parameters ?
I thought K-H was on to something with PP7.
Anyway, it has to wait till tomorrow: apparently he needs to take a nap now ... :grin:

:sleep:

Kind regards.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Hi Bart, The stunning example that K-H posted shows that any of these profiles (for stills) as a good starting point. His final image was dues to further processing.

BTW, in A7rII you have more than 7 profiles with endless possibilities. :)
 

Annna T

Active member
Hi Bart, The stunning example that K-H posted shows that any of these profiles (for stills) as a good starting point. His final image was dues to further processing.

BTW, in A7rII you have more than 7 profiles with endless possibilities. :)
I thought those profiles were for jpegs only and never pice them any attention. Do they also make a difference supposing you are shooting raws ?
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
K-H, No need for jpg. You can use your RAW with all the camera settings and convert it to tiff using Sony IDC (no need for C1 either). After that, you can use the images as such or further tweak them. I wish I could have provided some samples but I have to look for a less sharp lens (than the 35/2.5 Summarit M) to do that without severe color moire.

BTW, this (in camera profile settings which are more sophisticated than those of any other camera makers, AFAIK) is not unlike the use of a Nikon cam and NX2 to process the files.

Thanks again Vivek. I agree, I verified that one can use the .ARW file.
So, I reactivated my 2009 17" MacBook Pro that is running Yosemite, installed IDC, loaded the .ARW file and without changing any parameters saved a .tif file to OUTPUT.
Then on my late 2013 Mac Pro I opened the .tif file with C1 and saved a quarter size .jpg file. Again no other processing. Here is the image.



Extremely (though not exactly) similar to the OOC JPG image, I think it proves the point I am trying to make. Thanks again Vivek, that should settle this point for me anyway.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Hi there K-H,

I'm puzzled now: in what way you think now that you didn't get it quite right ?





TIA

PS Still have to go out to try PP7 ... :eek:

Thanks Bart, the roles of OOC JPGs and raw files in this context weren't clear to me. As Vivek noted and I convinced myself in post #67 their roles should be clear now.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
When I shot the Living Room images in post #55 with Picture Profile PP7, I also took shots with the other profiles.
PP0 simply means one uses the settings of Creative Style.
PP1 through PP7 are just memory locations in which particular Picture Profile parameters are stored.
They have default settings that can be modified, copied, or reset.

These are the default values of PP7:

Black Level 0
Gamma S-Log2
Black Gamma
Knee
Color Mode S-Gamut
Saturation 0
Color Phase 0
Color Depth
Detail
Copy
Reset

These parameters or commands have their own sub panels to be further specified or their values copied to another Picture Profile or reset to their default values.
The default values of PP7, in particular contain Gamma S-Log2 and Color Mode S-Gamut.

In a paper by dpreview staff http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-7r-ii/8 we find, quote:

"Shooting ISO Invariant using S-Log 2

On most cameras it's difficult to take advantage of their ISO Invariant nature because the camera's meter considers you to be hugely under-exposing and, even if your camera will present a preview that isn't related to exposure, the files you shoot are likely to appear almost totally black, making it very difficult to assess exposure.

Sony's S-Log 2 gamma curve: primarily designed for movie shooting, it ends up doubling as a handy way of making it easier to make use of the sensor's capabilities. The ways it does this are two-fold:

firstly, because it offers an incredibly flat tone curve, the dark tones in the Raw file that you might want to make use of are pulled up and presented reasonably brightly.

Secondly, though, is the knock-on effect of this tone curve. Because ISO ratings are based on mid tones in JPEGs and the flat tone curve pulls its mid tones from a long way down the Raw file, the S-Log2 mode is considered to be a higher ISO than the normal tone curve. As a result, the lowest available ISO in S-Log2 mode is 800: not because the lower settings are being locked off but because an ISO 800 exposure is enough for a middle-grey object to be represented as a middle grey in the S-Log 2 JPEGs.

Looked at from a Raw perspective and what's happening is the camera is trying to use ISO 800 exposures but with much lower amplification than in standard mode, meaning highlights aren't being amplified out of the file. (If shot with the same exposure values, the ISO 800 Raw files from S-Log2 shooting appear to be somewhere between the ISO 125 and ISO 160 results in standard mode).

As a result, shooting in SLog-2 mode not only provides a more usable preview and output JPEG, it also essentially causes the camera to reduce exposure by 2.5EV to protect highlights.
"

So, according to the last quoted sentence SLog2 also essentially causes the camera to reduce exposure by 2.5EV to protect highlights. There you have it.
Because of the properties of PP7 listed above under firstly and secondly, I thought it worth exploring. The result is displayed in the images in post #55.

The next question on my mind was, how do those images shot with PP7 compare with images shot with PP0, i.e. using Creative Style parameters. I chose Standard with close to default settings.
I then used C1 to process the resulting .ARW files and tried to make them appear as close as possible to the images that were shot with PP7.

Here are my results for the images shot with PP0, i.e. Standard Creative Style.








A7r2 + WATE + PP0 = Creative Style: Standard

As expected, here the outside window area is brighter as compared to the images shot with PP7 if one keeps the room itself appear with similar brightness.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
A7r2 + WATE + PP0 = Creative Style: Standard

As expected, here the outside window area is brighter as compared to the images shot with PP7 if one keeps the room itself appear with similar brightness.
Hi K-H,

sorry but all I can see is a slight colour balance difference due to the fact that the lamps are switched on in the first image.
My own brief test this weekend with PP off (PP2) and PP7 and processed in C1 showed no noticeable difference, perhaps I need another monitor ?

Oh well, as suggested by Vivek I'll better stick to PP2 (PP off) ... :eek:

Kind regards.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Thanks Bart, on my A7r2 PP0 is Off, PP2 is something else, no?
When using PP0 I can change Creative Style settings, in PP2 my A7r2 won't let me do that.

Also, did you compare the last two images in post #55 with those in post #70?
Each post has an image with lamps on and off.
The images in post #55 were shot with PP7.
The images in post #70 were shot with PP0.

An easy way to see the differences is to download the jpegs and compare with Preview or PS I find.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
The last Hummingbirds left about 2 weeks ago for their winter quarters.
Here the Mantis seems more preying than praying. :shocked:



Sony A7r2 + Leica APO-Summicron-M 75/2 ASPH.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Of course, I am keeping my D800E as well, same sensor as A7r! :thumbs:

Hunter and Hunted


D800E + 80-400/4.5-5.6 AF-S @ 400 mm, f/5.6, ISO 2500, 1/2000 s.
 
Thanks Bart, on my A7r2 PP0 is Off, PP2 is something else, no?
When using PP0 I can change Creative Style settings, in PP2 my A7r2 won't let me do that.

Also, did you compare the last two images in post #55 with those in post #70?
Each post has an image with lamps on and off.
The images in post #55 were shot with PP7.
The images in post #70 were shot with PP0.

An easy way to see the differences is to download the jpegs and compare with Preview or PS I find.
This paper may help to better understand the S-Log2 function, it has been written for the A7s but as far as I understand the only difference with the A7RM2 is the native base ISO (3200 vs 800).
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/08/e...-on-the-sony-a7s-part-one-gamma-and-exposure/
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
V

Vivek

Guest
May be with the A7sII, part 2 will be coming? :p

K-H, Lovely shots. I find it intriguing that a zoom plus a clunker (D800E) and the A7rII plus 90 macro provide similar image quality. :confused:
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
May be with the A7sII, part 2 will be coming? :p
:ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

K-H, Lovely shots. I find it intriguing that a zoom plus a clunker (D800E) and the A7rII plus 90 macro provide similar image quality. :confused:
Thanks Vivek. Interesting isn't it.
The last 3 images were actually shot with three different cameras and lenses, namely:

• Sony A7r2 + Leica APO-Summicron-M 75/2 ASPH.
• Nikon D800E + Nikkor 80-400/4.5-5.6 AF-S
• Sony A7r + Sony FE 90/2.8 MACRO G OSS

The images seem to go well together, but I would give the Sony A7r2 + Leica AA 75/2 the edge though.
Here is the un-cropped image taken with that combination.



Sony A7r2 + Leica AA 75/2
 
Top