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Thread: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

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    A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Any news?

    I found this link but it points to 1.10:

    Sony Global - Digital Imaging €“ ILCE-7RM2
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Yep it looks like the uncompressed firmware is available. Sony eSupport - ILCE-7RM2 - Support

    EDIT: I see the page it takes you to has the date as 21/9 and is an update but saying it's only 1.10. Maybe it's in the process of being available.
    Craig Slingsby
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Craig Slingsby
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Has anyone updated yet?
    What are the options ?
    Is lossy compressed still available?
    TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Has anyone updated yet?
    What are the options ?
    Is lossy compressed still available?
    TIA.
    I'm opting for lossless compressed ... 😜
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    I'm opting for lossless compressed ... 😜
    But no it's not there ...

    This page provides instructions on how to update the firmware for camera ILCE-7RM2 to version 2.00.

    Benefits of Update:

    Uncompressed RAW format is available (*).
    HDMI output is possible when using Remote Camera Control. (Only Still Mode)
    *Applications of PlayMemories Camera Apps do not support uncompressed RAW as of October, 2015.
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Has anyone updated yet?
    What are the options ?
    Is lossy compressed still available?
    TIA.
    Just updated, took pretty long time. Lossy compression is still available, there is menu option to to select "RAW File Type" with options "Uncompressed" and "Compressed".
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post
    Just updated, took pretty long time. Lossy compression is still available, there is menu option to to select "RAW File Type" with options "Uncompressed" and "Compressed".
    Many thanks! Excellent!
    In which menu panel is the selection? TIA.

    PS: It's on the first panel. Comes up with set to Compressed. √

    I updated to 2.00 with the last beta version of El Capitan. Went very smoothly, takes 15 minutes as the instructions state. Thanks Sony!
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 19th October 2015 at 00:36.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Now for the exhaustive "here is the image with compressed RAW, and here is the same shot but with uncompressed RAW". Now, let's deliberately overexpose by four or five stops and see which version holds highlight detail better.

    IOW... I'll gladly do the update, just to have the option. But I doubt there will be many circumstances that I will opt for uncompressed RAW.

    Even in an age where we can buy 3 TB ultra fast external drives for less than $100, I'd rather not have to process/copy/backup arbitrarily large files unless there is a compelling reason to do so.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    :rotfl:

    - - - Updated - - -

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Good stuff. Thanks.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    I copied Uncompressed files to my Mac and opened them with Iridient just fine.
    C1 8.3.3 doesn't seem to be ready yet.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quick, dirty, unscientific test on kitchen top bottle labels indicates to me that it looks a bit cleaner, as if it has slightly finer resolution and slightly more 'real' looking edges, with the uncompressed. I will probably have a closer and more scientific look later. I like.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Any word on updates for A7, A7R, A7s (as well the NEX')? All these are still current cameras and being sold spanking new.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Craig Slingsby
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Updated successfully on my El Capitan system. Turned compression OFF.

    Uncompressed files open properly in Lightroom (2015.1.1). All good.

    I can now proceed to not think about it any more.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    Updated successfully on my El Capitan system. Turned compression OFF.

    Uncompressed files open properly in Lightroom (2015.1.1). All good.

    I can now proceed to not think about it any more.

    But maybe keep an eye on it?
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    I certainly want to update but have to make sure it doesn't break anything. One person has mentioned C1 not working with it? Good that Lightroom works, but so far the output from LR seems to be inferior to what C1 produces from the Sony. I can't consider upgrading if C1 isn't ready...

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Sonycamerarumors:

    Those are the new features:

    - Adds the selectable feature for uncompressed 14-Bit RAW image capture.

    - Adds support to output video via HDMI during use of the Remote Camera Control software (still mode only).

    UPDATE: There seems to be an issue with the firmware update. If you have APS-C mode on Auto than once you install the firmware update you can only shoot pictures at a max resolution of 18 megapixel. You can still change the settings after the firmware update so dont worry. But just in case you cant take any 42MP pictures any more know it that the firmware seems to activate it as default! (Thanks Mirrorlessons for the tip).

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio Chagin View Post
    Sonycamerarumors:



    UPDATE: There seems to be an issue with the firmware update. If you have APS-C mode on Auto than once you install the firmware update you can only shoot pictures at a max resolution of 18 megapixel. You can still change the settings after the firmware update so dont worry. But just in case you cant take any 42MP pictures any more know it that the firmware seems to activate it as default! (Thanks Mirrorlessons for the tip).
    I have not seen anything like that, APS-C is on Auto but the resolution is 42 Mp as before the upgrade.
    Ario
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterSteve View Post
    I certainly want to update but have to make sure it doesn't break anything. One person has mentioned C1 not working with it? Good that Lightroom works, but so far the output from LR seems to be inferior to what C1 produces from the Sony. I can't consider upgrading if C1 isn't ready...
    Capture One at present does not support the uncompressed file but it will with the next release which is due very soon (words from CO support team)
    Ario
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    In the past I used to convert to DNG because of the slight gain in smaller file sizes

    Having updated this morning to the very latest Firmware 2.0...I decided to carry out a very quick crude test on file sizes (Sorry, absolutely no works of art here - This was a test purely for file sizes for compressed and uncompressed RAW and DNG's etc (+ the relative attached jpegs)

    DROPBOX>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h07c7yura...1U7hQNE7a?dl=0

    I used the latest Windows version 9.1.1 DNG converter

    RAW FILE SIZES...(are about the file sizes I was expecting)
    40.9mb compressed = DSC02273.ARW
    81.5mb uncompressed (14 bit) = DSC02274.ARW

    DNG FILE SIZES
    36.0mb compressed
    36.2mb (14 bit uncompressed)...Then compressed via the DNG converter

    It needs a little further investigation but I am now wondering if 14bit files compressed via the DNG converter might now be the best solution (at least for my needs as that is as a good balance between IQ and taking up to much storage space).

    Cheers Barry
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Barry,
    The version of DNR converter that I have says that the compression used is Lossy.
    While it dramatically reduces file size it does subject the file to quality loss according to the Adobe warning.

    Not sure what benefit there is from Adobe lossy compared to Sony lossy.
    David

    dmwfotos | davidmward.photography
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Haines View Post
    RAW FILE SIZES...(are about the file sizes I was expecting)
    40.9mb compressed = DSC02273.ARW
    81.5mb uncompressed (14 bit) = DSC02274.ARW
    Barry, I think I've got a bigger sensor ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Hi,

    I am pretty sure you are not loosing image quality with DNG compression, although I guess it may be lossy. Lots of the information in the raw files is noise and there is little reason to save noise.

    Sony has two methods of raw compression and one of those can cause artefacts on high contrast edges, I don't think you would see it in DNG compression.

    On the other hand, a few programs don't support DNG, or do not support it properly. I usually save a binary copy of the raw in DNGs but that makes the DNGs very fat.

    I am not sure I will use Sony's uncompressed raws as I have not seem any artefacts yet, but careful examination of the new format may make me to change my mind.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Haines View Post
    In the past I used to convert to DNG because of the slight gain in smaller file sizes

    Having updated this morning to the very latest Firmware 2.0...I decided to carry out a very quick crude test on file sizes (Sorry, absolutely no works of art here - This was a test purely for file sizes for compressed and uncompressed RAW and DNG's etc (+ the relative attached jpegs)

    DROPBOX>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h07c7yura...1U7hQNE7a?dl=0

    I used the latest Windows version 9.1.1 DNG converter

    RAW FILE SIZES...(are about the file sizes I was expecting)
    40.9mb compressed = DSC02273.ARW
    81.5mb uncompressed (14 bit) = DSC02274.ARW

    DNG FILE SIZES
    36.0mb compressed
    36.2mb (14 bit uncompressed)...Then compressed via the DNG converter

    It needs a little further investigation but I am now wondering if 14bit files compressed via the DNG converter might now be the best solution (at least for my needs as that is as a good balance between IQ and taking up to much storage space).

    Cheers Barry

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    Senior Member Barry Haines's Avatar
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post
    Barry,
    The version of DNR converter that I have says that the compression used is Lossy.
    While it dramatically reduces file size it does subject the file to quality loss according to the Adobe warning.

    Not sure what benefit there is from Adobe lossy compared to Sony lossy.
    Thank you David for checking it out, most appreciated (I must admit I have not come upon any Adobe warnings yet...not to say that I wont later on ).
    I always thought that the DNG converter was making a compressed Lossless conversion of an uncompressed 14 bit Lossless RAW file https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Negative
    Or in our case with the A7RII Firmware 2.0 upgrade, it would make a compressed version of a 14 bit RAW Lossy file which would still show up as Lossy after the DNG conversion (Just as you are saying).
    Although Im still unsure if you would have any further loss of quality over the original 14 bit Lossy RAW files if you get my drift, as the DNG conversion is supposedly Lossless on the original file.
    You would just benefit from smaller files, although that all sounds to good to be true doesnt it!...As said before I think it needs further investigation to see if it has any merit before giving up on it...Thanks again ...Cheers Barry

    ________________________________________________

    Stop bragging Bart ^^^ Everybody knows less is MORE...You should get yourself the A7SII as there is obviously something very wrong with your camera my friend

    _________________________________________________

    Thank you Eric...Pretty much my take also.

    I am pretty sure you are not loosing image quality with DNG compression, although I guess it may be lossy. Lots of the information in the raw files is noise and there is little reason to save noise.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    I can't get C1. DXO op, Aperture, or my stand alone LR6 version to open this uncompressed ARW file...... I did the upload and it seems to have a 86mp file on the card but none of my PP softwares are recognizing it as of yet.

    Figured I would try a shot to see what all the hoopla was with this...... to me going back to uncompressed RAW is as advanced as a 8 track player

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Have just updated and have imported a file as ARW or DNG into Lr6.1.1 (Standalone) with no problem

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Now for the exhaustive "here is the image with compressed RAW, and here is the same shot but with uncompressed RAW". Now, let's deliberately overexpose by four or five stops and see which version holds highlight detail better.
    As expected: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56648196

    Six stop push? Go large or go home. Can't push six stops with compressed RAW, what to do, what to do...
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I am pretty sure you are not loosing image quality with DNG compression, although I guess it may be lossy. Lots of the information in the raw files is noise and there is little reason to save noise.

    Sony has two methods of raw compression and one of those can cause artefacts on high contrast edges, I don't think you would see it in DNG compression.

    On the other hand, a few programs don't support DNG, or do not support it properly. I usually save a binary copy of the raw in DNGs but that makes the DNGs very fat.

    I am not sure I will use Sony's uncompressed raws as I have not seem any artefacts yet, but careful examination of the new format may make me to change my mind.

    Best regards
    Erik
    How do you get the binary copy back in the original form? TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Here is what I found with a quick test:
    A) File in uncompressed raw from camera is listed at 86.5MB in finder.
    B) Export file from Lightroom CC 2015 as dng with no JPG is 48.8 MB in finder.
    C) Export file from Lightroom CC 2015 with lossy compression ticked, as dng with no JPG is 22 MB in finder.

    Based on this, without any other considerations, Lightroom compresses raw files when exporting. Since this is done without any options one can presume that it is lossless compression.

    I'd say it makes sense to consider importing into Lightroom as dng or doing a batch conversion if large file size is a concern.
    David

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post
    Here is what I found with a quick test:
    A) File in uncompressed raw from camera is listed at 86.5MB in finder.
    B) Export file from Lightroom CC 2015 as dng with no JPG is 48.8 MB in finder.
    C) Export file from Lightroom CC 2015 with lossy compression ticked, as dng with no JPG is 22 MB in finder.

    Based on this, without any other considerations, Lightroom compresses raw files when exporting. Since this is done without any options one can presume that it is lossless compression.

    I'd say it makes sense to consider importing into Lightroom as dng or doing a batch conversion if large file size is a concern.
    After you have done this, could you still edit the file in C1?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    As expected: Slightly better colour in 6 stop pushes?: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    Six stop push? Go large or go home. Can't push six stops with compressed RAW, what to do, what to do...
    I would have to backup the claim that it makes a difference, even just with shadows maxed to 100 in LR. I shot a window using uncompressed raw and pushed the darker inside areas to Shadows +100 in LR (plus some other minor adjustments) then copy/pasted the settings over to the same scene shot with compressed raw. The compressed shot had much more of a weird pink color cast in the pushed areas. Uncompressed much cleaner and even color overall. Have to say I'm surprised. I didn't expect to see any difference.

    Left: compressed.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by bdp; 19th October 2015 at 17:29.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Again, at 800ISO. Compressed on the right this time. This is with Exposure at +1.75 and shadows +100 though, which is a setting I would try to avoid. Quite underexposed and normally I wouldn't push shots this far, but it's a long way from 6 stops underexposed and I'm still seeing a difference in low frequency noise and color casts in the shadows.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by bdp View Post
    Again, at 800ISO. Compressed on the right this time. This is with Exposure at +1.75 and shadows +100 though, which is a setting I would try to avoid. Quite underexposed and normally I wouldn't push shots this far, but it's a long way from 6 stops underexposed and I'm still seeing a difference in low frequency noise and color casts in the shadows.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It would be interesting to see if this minor difference will be visible in a print. I suspect, not.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    I believe that last one on the right is a good example of the known compression artefacts that used to be really visible on the edges and appear purple like CA from a bright highlight next to a dark shadow. Now it seems with these magnified views at a pixel level it looks like the artefacts cover more than the edges.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Hi,

    Adobe DNG Converter has a button name "Extract...":


    I have tested embedding and extracting an image and the original image and the extracted one had the same MD5 checksum, meaning that they were bitwise copies.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    How do you get the binary copy back in the original form? TIA.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Photographylife has compared the sizes of uncompressed raw files against dng files :

    https://photographylife.com/sony-a7r...-dng-converter

    What is interesting is that they compared both pictures with few details and pictures with lots of details.

    It's the first time that I find some interest in this conversion.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    After you have done this, could you still edit the file in C1?
    I just updated my crippled version of Capture 1 (Sony version) to 8.3.3.
    All three of the dng files opened. The native sony file is not readable.

    The dng files also opened in 8.3.2
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Photographylife has compared the sizes of uncompressed raw files against dng files :

    https://photographylife.com/sony-a7r...-dng-converter

    What is interesting is that they compared both pictures with few details and pictures with lots of details.

    It's the first time that I find some interest in this conversion.
    I'd prefer to have the comparison without JPG included. I see no reason to embed a JPG into a raw file when all the software options we use for processing has the capability to create a JPG for its own use.

    The file I used had about 25% sky and the rest was fine detail trees and bushes. I selected it because it seems about average for detail.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by bdp View Post
    Again, at 800ISO. Compressed on the right this time. This is with Exposure at +1.75 and shadows +100 though, which is a setting I would try to avoid. Quite underexposed and normally I wouldn't push shots this far, but it's a long way from 6 stops underexposed and I'm still seeing a difference in low frequency noise and color casts in the shadows.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The color shift is dramatic. I wonder what could explain that? All the explanations with the lossy compression were dealing with highlight issues etc. Kind of scary.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It would be interesting to see if this minor difference will be visible in a print. I suspect, not.
    Pretty large color shift. Even without the exaggerated processing seems it would be noticeable.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    This post summarizes where we stand today with the issue: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56653457

    As is shown, the strongest compression effect is blocky pixilation artifacts along high contrast edges. However, compression also seems to cause some noise and color artifacts in broader shadow areas.

    This difference in the shadows has also been confirmed by users of the online KARWY tool, which was developed to fix artifacts in compressed Sony files (after the fact). http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56535255 The tool itself is slow, but examples from using it show that reverse engineering the lossy compression can reduce shadow noise.

    --d
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Maybe a stupid question, but were the temp and tint sliders in the exact same position for these comparisons?

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    To me, the "color shift" is all in the dark object on the left side of the image. This looks like increased chromatic aberration in the compressed file. Without having access to the RAW file, I'd guess that the CA is easily correctable.

    Regardless, I can't remember an instance where I've ever had to push small shadow more than a stop or two. If the shot is severely underexposed, it gets rejected.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by dmward View Post
    I'd prefer to have the comparison without JPG included. I see no reason to embed a JPG into a raw file when all the software options we use for processing has the capability to create a JPG for its own use.

    The file I used had about 25% sky and the rest was fine detail trees and bushes. I selected it because it seems about average for detail.
    All RAW files have a small, embedded JPG. It's what you see when you review the image with your camera.

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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    To me, the "color shift" is all in the dark object on the left side of the image. This looks like increased chromatic aberration in the compressed file. Without having access to the RAW file, I'd guess that the CA is easily correctable.

    Regardless, I can't remember an instance where I've ever had to push small shadow more than a stop or two. If the shot is severely underexposed, it gets rejected.
    Interesting. I’m not really seeing it as CA at all, more like a colorcast that increases as the densities get darker. I’ve struggled with some of my sony files for quite some time with what I’ve called“crossover”, trying to get neutral colors in the entire image without some highlights looking green vs some shadows looking magenta, something I don’t see with my Phase gear.

    I’ll be interested to test the new lossless raw when I get some time to see if it helps.
    wayne
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Maybe a stupid question, but were the temp and tint sliders in the exact same position for these comparisons?
    Yes, they were. It's not a universal color shift, just patchy blotches of magenta in pushed shadows.

    Wayne I'm sure you'll see a difference if you noticed this green/magenta inbalance previously. I'd be interested to see if you can notice a difference with uncompressed raws.
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    Re: A7R2 - Firmware update available (14-bit uncompressed RAW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Interesting. Im not really seeing it as CA at all, more like a colorcast that increases as the densities get darker. Ive struggled with some of my sony files for quite some time with what Ive calledcrossover, trying to get neutral colors in the entire image without some highlights looking green vs some shadows looking magenta, something I dont see with my Phase gear.

    Ill be interested to test the new lossless raw when I get some time to see if it helps.
    Agreed. It's hard to really know the issue without the original RAW file.

    Also keep in mind there are RAW converters and there are RAW converters. I'd love to put this RAW file through DxO's Prime NR.

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