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Thread: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by teeraash View Post
    I have Leica M9, Chrom and 240. My wish is that Leica won't put inferior sensor in the next M iteration. I don't mind paying more for the red dot as I like their lenses characters so much but not so thrill with behind the curve sensor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    24mp just doesn't cut it any more, particularly at these elevated prices. If the reason given on DPR for Leica using a 24mp sensor, namely that anything over 24mp "seemed excessive", then that answer sounds a tad disingenuous. It is more likely that Leica either don't have the right higher resolution sensor option, or don't want to eat in to their even pricier Leica S camera line, which tops out at 37.5mp.
    I disagree on both counts. My feeling from working with M-P files compared to A7 files is that the Leica sensor produces superior results, probably due to being a better match to my lenses and not having a crippled compression mechanism. I felt that way even about the M9 compared to the A7, or I wouldn't have sold the A7.

    And at least for my photography and my lenses, 24 Mpixel is enough to make any output I'm ever going to need to make. It's already more than enough, in fact. I'm not one of those who customarily makes wall-sized prints—if I were, I'd likely find the scratch to invest in one of the Leica S models mentioned. I'd bet the same is true for the majority of photographers.

    I believe strongly that there really is a point where enough is enough: Photographs don't always benefit from more, more, and yet more. Photographers even less. No matter what a manufacturer might want you to believe.

    G

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, I just spent a wonderful afternoon with my A7r2 and WATE at Los Luceros, the oldest continuously operated Hacienda, since 1703, in the state of New Mexico. After the last two days of rain, we had perfect weather today.

    The Cottonwood trees in the bosque along the Rio Grande were featuring their peak fall colors, glorious yellow under navy blue skies and white snowy mountain tops of the Sangre de Cristos at the horizon, after the generous precipitation of the last two days.

    The A7r2 with IBIS and the WATE comprise a rather compact package that fits my hand superbly. After two months of ownership muscle memory has taken over in operating the camera. The mirrorless ILC performed magnificently in the fairly dark interior of historical buildings, among the shady Cottonwood trees, and under bright open skies in full sunshine. The perfect tool for the occasion. No problems, whatsoever, encountered. Great company, a most enjoyable afternoon, here in the "Land of Enchantment"!
    I'm glad to hear you are happy with your equipment. I look forward to seeing some of the photographs.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I disagree on both counts. My feeling from working with M-P files compared to A7 files is that the Leica sensor produces superior results, probably due to being a better match to my lenses and not having a crippled compression mechanism. I felt that way even about the M9 compared to the A7, or I wouldn't have sold the A7.

    And at least for my photography and my lenses, 24 Mpixel is enough to make any output I'm ever going to need to make. It's already more than enough, in fact. I'm not one of those who customarily makes wall-sized prints—if I were, I'd likely find the scratch to invest in one of the Leica S models mentioned. I'd bet the same is true for the majority of photographers.

    I believe strongly that there really is a point where enough is enough: Photographs don't always benefit from more, more, and yet more. Photographers even less. No matter what a manufacturer might want you to believe.

    G

    Me thinks Thou protest too much!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have no interest in the comparison between SL and A7r II. Two completely different cameras, far as I'm concerned. I'd rather evaluate the SL on its own merits, and not gauge its performance by a stupid test that presupposes a foolish way to make exposures and correct them. If I'm going to compare the SL to anything, that will be the Leica R8, Leica S, Leica M240, or DSLRs like the Nikon D750.
    To what extent do you think they're different? I agree the other comparisons you want to make also make sense, but those are even more dissimilar cameras then the A7rII.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    My feeling from working with M-P files compared to A7 files is that the Leica sensor produces superior results, probably due to being a better match to my lenses and not having a crippled compression mechanism.
    I can't comment on the sensor quality, but the crippled compression mechanism in the A7RII is a thing of the past.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Clearly because Leica has cornered the market on users who are all fools!!! There can be no other explanation - seriously all Leica users are just silly ...why they don't see the world the way Sony wants them to see it- is just one of those great mysteries - now solved by me- we Leica users are clearly just idjots...
    Is that what you think?
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I don't give a tinker's damn about Sony-Leica comparisons, or the on-going blather that surrounds it.

    I want to know what Sony is doing for a customer that already bought one of their cameras, and a few, mostly slow aperture, mediocre FE lenses.

    Raw compression may be a thing of the past on the A7R-II ... but not the A7R I already paid for.

    Did Sony fix that?, because I'd like to update rather than shell out for yet another camera so soon.

    While we are at it, did Sony fix the snail slow lag in the A7R, or the shutter slap heard around the world?

    The new giant FE lenses may be excellent, but not the 24-70/4 and 35/2.8 FE lenses I already paid for.

    Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II ... which is sure to be deemed crappy when the even more superlative A7R-III hits the market in short order.

    I suppose the only option is to buy the A7R-II to get the fixes ... thus rewarding Sony for mediocrity.

    - Marc
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Me thinks Thou protest too much!
    Sorry to hear it, but that doesn't mean it's true.

    Sony lost me with their perpetually clunky, irritating controls and menus, poor sensor decisions (the thick cover glass), variable quality control, mediocre EVF adaptation, funky software, and random quality lenses. The every-three-months-a-new-model also irritates me a lot: I want to see incremental development and refinement of a solid basic design, not bodge fixing with more bodges.

    Why don't I consider the A7 to be in the same class of camera as the SL? Because it's not a good, solid, basic design, either technically or in execution, to start with. It was a bodge on NEX—sure, "we can stuff a bigger sensor in there, the lens mount will cover it (barely) and batteries are cheap." Ergonomics? Oh, they'll just put those big lenses on a tripod anyway, never mind that the whole body flexes when you don't provide a tripod mount on the lens and attach the body to the tripod, and that the layout of parts and connections makes a decent tripod adapter a real pain to make. Oops, flexy lens flange too .. Another fix up. But then who cares? the customers will just have to buy another model when we fix some of this stuff next quarter.

    Leica started fresh, starting with a lens mount that will work perfectly for all their future AND past lenses, for both FF and APS-C; with a basic body structure that is strong and doesn't flex when you put it on a tripod; with bodies that are easy to design tripod adapters for; with quiet, low vibration shutters that don't need kluges like EFCS to eliminate untoward vibration; with good sensors that don't ballyhoo on more more more senseless pixel resolution but instead match the lenses well and produce balanced performance. With the right size for good ergonomics to match the lenses the format requires, and the use intended of the system. And they'll keep at it, refining a good basic design for years with improvements to firmware and creating a class leading set of lenses to add value to it. This is/has been the fundamental premise of Leica products all through the past century: good, basic designs developed over long periods to a state of high refinement, which is why a fifty year old Leica still commands a good price and is still completely useful and useable today. Like my Leicaflex SL and M4-2 are. Etc.

    So no, I don't protest too much. I don't protest ENOUGH at the whole it's-all-disposable-and-who-cares-a-better-one-is-just-around-the-corner attitude that's money first and quality another time. At the cheaper-is-always-better-with-more-features philosophy that I so despise. I'm willing to dig into my pockets deep and pay for what I believe in—quality, trying to make the best, constant refinement of details and nuances—rather than accept that I will always have to work with second rate bodges. It's what I apply to my own work as well, even if it's cost me dearly on occasion there with my management; it benefits the customers in the end, and their benefit is my first priority.

    Thanks for the soapbox. It was fun.

    G

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II
    Well, how much do you want for it? It doesn't appear that you ever listed it for sale.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't give a tinker's damn about Sony-Leica comparisons, or the on-going blather that surrounds it.

    I want to know what Sony is doing for a customer that already bought one of their cameras, and a few, mostly slow aperture, mediocre FE lenses.

    Raw compression may be a thing of the past on the A7R-II ... but not the A7R I already paid for.

    Did Sony fix that?, because I'd like to update rather than shell out for yet another camera so soon.

    While we are at it, did Sony fix the snail slow lag in the A7R, or the shutter slap heard around the world?

    The new giant FE lenses may be excellent, but not the 24-70/4 and 35/2.8 FE lenses I already paid for.

    Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II ... which is sure to be deemed crappy when the even more superlative A7R-III hits the market in short order.

    I suppose the only option is to buy the A7R-II to get the fixes ... thus rewarding Sony for mediocrity.

    - Marc


    Marc M8/M9. My M8 sat in Germany for 6 months not one but two of them getting repairs and lets not forget the magenta **** that went along with it, what was the fix Marc BUY filters. I lost my shirt and pants selling them. bad argument look somewhere else because these arguments we can go around the globe with. Leica sucks too lets be real honest here. You want your A7r fixed buy a A7rII and take the bath just like I did with Leica. Please tell me there is a difference. This elitism is freaking sickening lets get over it folks. You want to spend a lot of money on Leica products no one is arguing thats your money. I don't I won't and i can't its that simple. I have far more pressing ISSUES to spend my earned money on. I want value proposition and Leica has never been that. This thread has turned into yet another them versus us, are we not just sick to death of this crap. i could give a **** about Leica as you do Sony. Im not spewing any hate towards them in any thread. i can't afford them i have a sick wife and medical bills that go through 2 lifetimes. Now am I scum of the Sony earth because thats what makes sense to me .

    I had enough of my own forum. Hows that for my day

    Ive been up since 4 am writing a review on a lens that no one here will give a rats *** about because its related to Sony. Isn't that just fun

    Im not replying to anything further here a complete waste of time. Im not getting younger either. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Sorry to hear it, but that doesn't mean it's true.
    Well, it certainly feels that way to me

    Maybe your rant was fun (it was at least amusing to read) but that also doesn't mean it's true.

    I have nothing against Leica (I still use my M2 and several M-lenses with great pleasure) but putting them on a pedestal above others is hardly justified by their share of QC problems and enormous depreciation in value of their digital bodies.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    24mp just doesn't cut it any more, particularly at these elevated prices. If the reason given on DPR for Leica using a 24mp sensor, namely that anything over 24mp "seemed excessive", then that answer sounds a tad disingenuous. It is more likely that Leica either don't have the right higher resolution sensor option, or don't want to eat in to their even pricier Leica S camera line, which tops out at 37.5mp.

    Check out a studio shot comparison between the SL and a A7RII on DPR. Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
    I don't usually do these sort of things, but I just downloaded the Sony A7Rii and the Leica SL raws from the DPR site, loaded them into Photoshop and upressed the SL file to match the Sony file. I expected the differences to be minor. In fact, the differences are quite dramatic in the resolution and "smoothness" of the detail. The blurred corners on that $5,000 Leica lens are very surprising. I will have to continue my search to figure out just what you get with the Leica SL for $12,500 that makes it a more capable camera than the Sony A7RII. As soon as I do, I will buy one.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While we are at it, did Sony fix the snail slow lag in the A7R, or the shutter slap heard around the world?

    The new giant FE lenses may be excellent, but not the 24-70/4 and 35/2.8 FE lenses I already paid for.

    Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II ... which is sure to be deemed crappy when the even more superlative A7R-III hits the market in short order.
    - Marc
    Huh... well, I've made hundreds of images with the A7r for my clients and no one has ever complained about my crappy camera. Actually, I'm not seeing much quality difference between the Mk1 and the Mk2 (uncompressed or what have you). Also, I never saw any issues with compressed raws; my Phase 1 gear shot compressed raws. Lastly, I don't shoot my 35mm f/2.8 all that much, but I just used it to test out my Kolari modded A7r and that lens is exceptionally sharp. Maybe I just happened to get great gear from Sony?

    CB
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Im not spewing any hate towards them in any thread. i can't afford them i have a sick wife and medical bills that go through 2 lifetimes.
    So sorry. Best wishes as always.

    Also, this thread seems to have become rather full of hard feelings.

    My own observation is that where other people spend their money is not only not my business it does not reflect on the validity of my own choices.

    I like the diversity of the camera world and I am happy to still have Leica after a near death experience.

    Similarly, Sony saved the Minolta legacy.

    Both brands are offering interesting and useful alternatives to, what I perceive as, the similarities of Nikon and Canon.

    I think it is perfectly fair that some feel burned by the shortcomings of the original A7 line up, including lenses. Others may feel that way about the M8, M9 problems. Many are more likely to give Leica a pass because of their storied history and boutique standing. Others may forgive Sony due to their rapidly corrective iterative cycle.

    On the other hand, some are upset that the long standing firm cannot seem to get some things right or that the upstart's rapid upgrade cycle looks like beta testing on paying customers.

    I believe that Sony and Leica are both trying very hard. It is impossible for a small firm like Leica to rapidly iterate. They also need to profit with small numbers, which means higher pricing. While for Sony, I feel they make each camera as strong as they can while releasing on a deadline. They are after bigger fish and have to push hard with each generation.

    Leica is always going to strive for a unique user experience and strong optics. That is where they can distinguish themselves most readily. Sony is going to go for brute technology and rapid improvement. That is how they distinguish themselves.

    Neither company is necessarily going to be even making cameras in ten years. There are simply no guarantees of that.

    No bad choices here. Only personal decisions.

    This is not life and death.

    However, I can't decide between the 55 FE, the 24-70 FE and the 28-135 FE. Now, that is important.

    Take care,

    Bill
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    "BTW, grousing about Leica prices is like Lemmings complaining that the cliff is to high ..." –Marc

    Funniest line I can recall from a photo blog!

    In my rush to the edge, I keep forgetting to measure.

    Kirk

    BTW, the point of this thread was to try to get away from so much venting and to look at a bit of data about resolution and dynamic range. That's obviously failed, so IMO the thread is up past its bedtime.

    Let's put it to sleep now?
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 1st November 2015 at 09:54.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Well, it certainly feels that way to me

    Maybe your rant was fun (it was at least amusing to read) but that also doesn't mean it's true.

    I have nothing against Leica (I still use my M2 and several M-lenses with great pleasure) but putting them on a pedestal above others is hardly justified by their share of QC problems and enormous depreciation in value of their digital bodies.
    It was fun. Isn't that's what we're here for? Even Guy says that. :-)

    I don't put Leica on a pedestal above others. I consider them peers to Olympus, Canon, and Nikon, who even in this damaged era all seem to want to do solid development on a good design. The Olympus E-1, E-5, and E-M1 are superb cameras ... I still have my E-M1 kit and use it gladly. And the Nikon D750 body is very very good, it just lacks the particular élan that the F6 has that I was looking for. If I could have nothing else, I would enjoy the D750 immensely.

    Sony bought their way into still cameras and has*had more issues than the others, that's my perception from buying and using eight of their cameras over the past decade and a half. Three of those cameras were quite excellent (the F707, F717, and the R1). I was greatly saddened when I tried an F828 and saw how much they'd messed it up despite the beautiful Zeiss lens (terrible case of sensor-lens mismatch with purple fringing everywhere in almost any situation). They're just more inconsistent than most, and the A7 series exemplifies that inconsistency.

    I'm only talking about Sony in this thread because it was specifically a discussion about a crappy test that the Leica SL and Sony A7RII were subjected to. I think its results are equally stupid for both cameras. Otherwise, I mostly avoid the Sony threads on this site (which means I don't bother reading about 2/3 of the threads here).

    The value of my equipment has always been in using it, rather than what it costs and how much I could sell it for. My Nikon and Leica gear has always been the gear that I just kept on using, and to a slightly lesser extent my Olympus gear. Still have, and still use, my E-1... :-)

    G

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    "BTW, grousing about Leica prices is like Lemmings complaining that the cliff is to high ..." –Marc

    ...
    Yes, that's my favorite line from this whole thread too. :-)

    G

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Marc M8/M9. My M8 sat in Germany for 6 months not one but two of them getting repairs and lets not forget the magenta **** that went along with it, what was the fix Marc BUY filters. I lost my shirt and pants selling them. bad argument look somewhere else because these arguments we can go around the globe with. Leica sucks too lets be real honest here. You want your A7r fixed buy a A7rII and take the bath just like I did with Leica. Please tell me there is a difference. This elitism is freaking sickening lets get over it folks. You want to spend a lot of money on Leica products no one is arguing thats your money. I don't I won't and i can't its that simple. I have far more pressing ISSUES to spend my earned money on. I want value proposition and Leica has never been that. This thread has turned into yet another them versus us, are we not just sick to death of this crap. i could give a **** about Leica as you do Sony. Im not spewing any hate towards them in any thread. i can't afford them i have a sick wife and medical bills that go through 2 lifetimes. Now am I scum of the Sony earth because thats what makes sense to me .

    I had enough of my own forum. Hows that for my day

    Ive been up since 4 am writing a review on a lens that no one here will give a rats *** about because its related to Sony. Isn't that just fun

    Im not replying to anything further here a complete waste of time. Im not getting younger either. LOL
    Guy, I'm not worried about Leica or their new camera. As far as I'm concerned the DPR comparison is apples and oranges. Two different cameras with different objectives for people to select from based on their needs and level of financial abilities.

    I'm hardly elitist ... retirement made sure of that. So, since this is the Sony forum my comments are about the Sony I paid good money for. No comment on the SL since I haven't touched one, haven't spent a penny on one, and probably wouldn't find it a relevant choice anyway (unless Leica reverses course and makes a S adapter that activates the leaf-shutter CS lenses).

    Back when the Leica M8 arrived I was one of the first IR whistle blowers, and I was pi$$ed. So, the solution was to pay for a M9?

    Frankly, one bath was enough ... so it really irritates me that the solution to the A7R is to buy a A7R-II ... a camera that still has the worse interface known to photography.

    Feels like bad money after bad. For me, the impact of this con job today is as serious as the M fiasco was back then ... due to relative financial ability between then and now. No more depreciation or write offs, a trickle of photo income, and you don't know what getting older really means ... yet

    BTW, I also passed on the M240, and still haven't considered buying a used one even though I prefer a rangefinder for most candid work. I refuse to reward a screwing by bending over for another one ... Sony or Leica.

    This thread turned into a "them verses us" because the whole premise was a comparison of the SL "Apple" to the A7R-II "Orange" ... on the Sony forum. What did anyone expect?

    - Marc
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This thread turned into a "them verses us" because the whole premise was a comparison of the SL "Apple" to the A7R-II "Orange" ... on the Sony forum. What did anyone expect?

    - Marc
    I don't expect any enraged Leica user to come here and see the need to put down the entire Sony system because of this stupid "banana" test . Now if it's in the Leica forum, I totally understand the reaction. Your A7R doesn't stop working because Sony decided not to release a firmware fix to a minor problem. I wonder why you didn't return your A7R during your 30-day trial if it's such a garbage camera. I would.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...I refuse to reward a screwing by bending over for another one ... Sony or Leica.
    This I would totally agree. I refuse to be screwed over by Leica with their current M240 camera with limited functions for my use. I also avoid Sony lenses so far to not deal with the QC problem. So whatever decisions I have made on these systems, I made sure I was informed.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't give a tinker's damn about Sony-Leica comparisons, or the on-going blather that surrounds it.

    I want to know what Sony is doing for a customer that already bought one of their cameras, and a few, mostly slow aperture, mediocre FE lenses.

    Raw compression may be a thing of the past on the A7R-II ... but not the A7R I already paid for.

    Did Sony fix that?, because I'd like to update rather than shell out for yet another camera so soon.

    While we are at it, did Sony fix the snail slow lag in the A7R, or the shutter slap heard around the world?

    The new giant FE lenses may be excellent, but not the 24-70/4 and 35/2.8 FE lenses I already paid for.

    Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II ... which is sure to be deemed crappy when the even more superlative A7R-III hits the market in short order.

    I suppose the only option is to buy the A7R-II to get the fixes ... thus rewarding Sony for mediocrity.

    - Marc
    Guy seems to think you are just whining here

    Leica will replace my entire sensor on a 4 year old M9 for free if has it a problem. I bought the camera used.

    Your remarks on the A7 issues are from experience, not far-off sniping across systems. I also am daily Sony user. Every question you raise is totally fair: why don't they update the RAWS on the A7? Why did they choose that shutter? A7r2 certainly has EVF lag compared to Leica SL, according to Ming. The Lens quality issue applies to the latest models and hamstrings the entire system. Sony prices do fall fast, but that one is good for those on a budget. A7 (600USD) + Kolari (400) = 1000USD very competent FF M body and great film lens camera in general. Still horrible shutter and files though.

    I always thought "bashing" was ignorant dismissal of something without much personal knowledge. But the brutal truth hurts alot more, I guess. So for some any mention of Sony problems is "bashing". But Leica problems, oh yeah!!

    I say be honest about both. Guys tribulations with the M and Leica tech are totally worthy of note and nothing for Leica to be proud about. People look at this forum to help educate a choice. Always praises, never nightmares, makes a dull emptor
    Last edited by uhoh7; 1st November 2015 at 17:18.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post

    Leica will replace my entire sensor on a 4 year old M9 for free if has it a problem. I bought the camera used.
    "It is what it is"

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Strangely, everyone wants to frame the evaluation of the Leica SL in ways that ignore the more basic issues. If you ignore the cost; if you ignore the screwing you took on an earlier Leica camera; if you ignore the inconsistency in the QC on the Sony FE lenses; if you ignore the ability to adapt M and R lenses, and you focus on just what the Leica SL delivers on its own as a system, just what does it offer compared to the Sony? I can't figure it out. Perhaps someone can help me out here. The money is burning a hole in my pocket.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Sony bought their way into still cameras and has*had more issues than the others, that's my perception from buying and using eight of their cameras over the past decade and a half. Three of those cameras were quite excellent (the F707, F717, and the R1). I was greatly saddened when I tried an F828 and saw how much they'd messed it up despite the beautiful Zeiss lens (terrible case of sensor-lens mismatch with purple fringing everywhere in almost any situation). They're just more inconsistent than most, and the A7 series exemplifies that inconsistency.G
    Your first statement is unfounded BS. Sony has sold countless more cameras than Leica, and I'll bet that in percentage terms there have been far fewer issues with Sony built cameras than with those built by Leica!

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Sony has sold countless more cameras than Leica,
    Only if you are discounting the ones made by Minolta and Panasonic!
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    The Leica M8 was exactly like the A7 a beta product. There is zero difference. I really want someone to even try telling me different. I had thousands of dollars in 2 M8 bodies that spent 6 months in Germany for sudden death syndrome . Not 1 but 2. If I was not a friend of Leica with 2 loaners I was totally out of business. I don't forget these things. I mean out of business I had nothing to do business with. Talk about failure. Now ask me how often I go into the Leica forum and bitch about that. It's been years since I even said anything. Cameras are cameras there made bad sometimes they fail often. That's life. Regardless of what folks think of the A7r it produces till this day outstanding images. Anyone that thought they where not buying a beta product is very naive. The SL is a beta product to that line. If you don't realize that again your naive. That does not always mean it's bad but it does mean they are untested. That's the risk you take. Don't like that risk don't spend the money. But the Sony owners can join me in my new club. I shoot **** cameras and I'm proud group. Sign up coming on the 11 o'clock news.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    I don't expect any enraged Leica user to come here and see the need to put down the entire Sony system because of this stupid "banana" test . Now if it's in the Leica forum, I totally understand the reaction. Your A7R doesn't stop working because Sony decided not to release a firmware fix to a minor problem. I wonder why you didn't return your A7R during your 30-day trial if it's such a garbage camera. I would.
    I never called the A7R garbage. Nor am I interested in comparisons with another camera I do not know ... I'm more curious about challenging some info about a system I DO own and have used extensively.

    So, let's not engage in revisionist history.

    If you go back to the initial love fest over the A7R, many of the issues were being denied by Sony AND by many fairly respected shooters here ... I even tried to get with the program thinking it would just take some practice or better understanding of the camera which is generally acknowledged as being quite complex.

    Perception: Here was a very portable camera, easy to take with, perfect for some of the work I do, decisive moment stuff and the like ... plus high resolution for some other type work.

    Reality: The lag turned out to be the biggest issue manifested by missed moments ... timing for which I am usually known for by my clients (mostly with a M camera). The high res was effected by the shutter slap with some key lenses, and people were working through a number of solutions for that. Plus the truncated RAW which Sony never communicated when selling the camera ... which you think is minor, but who wouldn't want a full RAW file with all of the data going in if that's what you paid for? If it was so minor, why did everyone raise such a ruckus about it?

    Finally, I do not know where you bought your camera but there was not a 30 day trial period on the one I bought ... at least not when I bought it.

    - Marc

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Your first statement is unfounded BS. Sony has sold countless more cameras than Leica, and I'll bet that in percentage terms there have been far fewer issues with Sony built cameras than with those built by Leica!
    I think he meant that Sony bought Minolta to get into the still camera business in a big way ... which is fact, not BS.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Strangely, everyone wants to frame the evaluation of the Leica SL in ways that ignore the more basic issues. If you ignore the cost; if you ignore the screwing you took on an earlier Leica camera; if you ignore the inconsistency in the QC on the Sony FE lenses; if you ignore the ability to adapt M and R lenses, and you focus on just what the Leica SL delivers on its own as a system, just what does it offer compared to the Sony? I can't figure it out. Perhaps someone can help me out here. The money is burning a hole in my pocket.
    I think you cannot ignore the underlying positioning of this camera as an all-a-rounder for many existing Leica users with R, M and/or S lenses. In the case of the R and S optics, the camera's size could be beneficial. It isn't unreasonable to think existing M and R lenses will do well, and no other camera can take S lenses at all.

    As a stand alone, it apparently has the best EVF, really good AF, shoots to two cards, and exhibits less lag than other mirrorless cameras ... all of which could be surpassed in future, but for right now it does have that going for it.

    If Sony made a well built camera, with no lag, that shot to two cards and took my S lenses for half the price of the SL, I'd buy it. But they won't.

    - Marc

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I don't mind much that the Leica SL/Q are 24 MP. To me, for me, 24 MP is fine. I would love to see how many of the people saying it's a non issue would complain about the Sony not having 42 MP if the sensors were reversed, but I digress :-)

    The real issue (and this doesn't mean I think Leica has bad cameras), is that this new sensor Leica has can do banding at the higher ISO range or when pulling extreme shadows. In general shooting this is a non issue. Those who are shooting in daylight or in a studio shouldn't have much problem at all there either. But in those other situations when you need to do this, I have to ask myself why I want to pay more than double the price for a Leica solution if the sensor performs sub-par to Sony's.

    They sure got the glass right, which is very important too, though Sony has been doing better with the latest lens releases.

    But yeah, I can't stand banding in a sensor for the work I do. And certainly not at that price. The sensor better be flawless and it isn't. I do like a lot the look of their lenses though (by look I mean output, not just how they look physically as lenses).

    - Ricardo
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Your first statement is unfounded BS. Sony has sold countless more cameras than Leica, and I'll bet that in percentage terms there have been far fewer issues with Sony built cameras than with those built by Leica!
    Every Single Sony camera I have ever owned had to be repaired: VX2100, PD170, Nex-5, Nex5n and while the A7 did not have a failure, it had to be modified for 400USD before being fit for use with my lenses.

    My Leica M9 had a shutter failure after over 100K frames and had to have a new one that cost 500USD and included other routine service.

    In terms of toughness m9 vs A7 it is no contest. The A7 is fragile. Very risky to get it wet. Even the batteries may release without warning. Only with a very tough case do I dare bring it in the backcountry.

    Which Leica bodies have you owned and shot over 30,000 frames with?

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I never called the A7R garbage. Nor am I interested in comparisons with another camera I do not know ... I'm more curious about challenging some info about a system I DO own and have used extensively.

    So, let's not engage in revisionist history.

    If you go back to the initial love fest over the A7R, many of the issues were being denied by Sony AND by many fairly respected shooters here ... I even tried to get with the program thinking it would just take some practice or better understanding of the camera which is generally acknowledged as being quite complex.

    Perception: Here was a very portable camera, easy to take with, perfect for some of the work I do, decisive moment stuff and the like ... plus high resolution for some other type work.

    Reality: The lag turned out to be the biggest issue manifested by missed moments ... timing for which I am usually known for by my clients (mostly with a M camera). The high res was effected by the shutter slap with some key lenses, and people were working through a number of solutions for that. Plus the truncated RAW which Sony never communicated when selling the camera ... which you think is minor, but who wouldn't want a full RAW file with all of the data going in if that's what you paid for? If it was so minor, why did everyone raise such a ruckus about it?

    Finally, I do not know where you bought your camera but there was not a 30 day trial period on the one I bought ... at least not when I bought it.

    - Marc
    These potential issues are not unique to Sony. The M240 also has severe lag when using the EVF (required when shooting with wides). It also suffers from shutter shock (see tests by Lloyd Chambers). And then there's banding which afflicts all CMOS FF Leica sensors. As well as cracked/delaminated sensors. These sorts of issues are not as easy to forgive with Leica given the insanely higher prices.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Every Single Sony camera I have ever owned had to be repaired: VX2100, PD170, Nex-5, Nex5n and while the A7 did not have a failure, it had to be modified for 400USD before being fit for use with my lenses.

    My Leica M9 had a shutter failure after over 100K frames and had to have a new one that cost 500USD and included other routine service.

    In terms of toughness m9 vs A7 it is no contest. The A7 is fragile. Very risky to get it wet. Even the batteries may release without warning. Only with a very tough case do I dare bring it in the backcountry.

    Which Leica bodies have you owned and shot over 30,000 frames with?
    Leica M8, M9 (x2), M9P. All with issues, except for the last one.

    The NEX5 is a $300 camera. Seriously ... you expect to compare this with $7000 cameras.

    The A7RII is an entirely different camera to the A7.

    Which "current" generation Sony FF's have you owned?
    Last edited by lambert; 1st November 2015 at 19:44.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't put Leica on a pedestal above others.
    C'mon Godfrey, I think you're familiar with the expression "Can't BS a BS-er"?

    Just when you think you've got some small facet of life figured out, they go and change all the rules on you. C'est la vie! Resistance is futile.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Every Single Sony camera I have ever owned had to be repaired: VX2100, PD170, Nex-5, Nex5n and while the A7 did not have a failure, it had to be modified for 400USD before being fit for use with my lenses.

    My Leica M9 had a shutter failure after over 100K frames and had to have a new one that cost 500USD and included other routine service.

    In terms of toughness m9 vs A7 it is no contest. The A7 is fragile. Very risky to get it wet. Even the batteries may release without warning. Only with a very tough case do I dare bring it in the backcountry.

    Which Leica bodies have you owned and shot over 30,000 frames with?
    M8 and M9 both with many problems. Not problems like, "I had to put it on a helicopter before it would fly." Problems like, it won't really work without special filters for every shot. Or it won't calibrate with more than one lens for accurate focus. Or it won't shoot several rapid shots in a row without needing to be stopped, battery removed, battery replaced and restarted ...

    Also currently own, RX1, A7, A7r2, A7s2. Never any problem. Ever. Except when I expect the not even designed for capability to just be there. Like a bigger buffer, AF working in AF-C mode at more than 2 fps ...

    Also, Nikon has been releasing a ton of broken gear lately. See Thom Hogan for a long rant about that one. I have no idea about Canon as the sensor banding kept me away even when I was buying giant DSLR's.

    My Samsung NX1 often has slight glitches when shooting as well and they do a firmware update seemingly weekly.

    My point is only that trying to run down camera system because the gear, which performs according to design, does not meet a certain criteria is different from saying the gear is glitchy or always broken.

    Also, anecdotal stories will doubtless skew toward the support of one's current system. They just will. That is unavoidable.

    The Leica SL looks like a very capable system. It would be a no-brainer for me if I still had a pile of M lenses. As it is, my Noctilux is brilliant on my A7, so no worries.

    No doubt the A7r2 has more DR and resolution. That is Sony tech at work. Leica is unlikely to beat that. But there is so much more to a camera system than those two things. Especially when they are more than adequate for almost any photography already. Just ask the legions of happy Canon shooters that go around making really great photos using the lousy Canon sensors.

    But, in terms of just plain reliability, I have never shot with any digital Leica that I considered remotely as reliable as any of the Sony's I have now. I would take any of them anywhere, in any condition and not be concerned. And yes, I would use a rain cover if I needed one. My M lenses were not weather sealed either. Even my D4 was not made for pouring rain. Maybe my Olympus EM-1, 5 MP beast that it was, could have handled that.

    Even my Nikon AW1 has failed many, many people just by getting slightly dunked in the water and it is supposed to go nearly 50 feet under.

    As I always say in these contentious threads, no bad choices.

    As a separate issue, rugged is not a word I would ever apply to any digital M. The RF mechanism is far too delicate for the high resolutions photographer expect today. I have been shooting Leica RF almost 50 years and I have had many go out of calibration from seemingly innocuous bumps. But, this is not an issue of glitchy design in my mind. It is inherent in the design specs and to be expected.

    -Bill
    Last edited by ohnri; 1st November 2015 at 22:08.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I never called the A7R garbage. Nor am I interested in comparisons with another camera I do not know ... I'm more curious about challenging some info about a system I DO own and have used extensively.

    So, let's not engage in revisionist history.

    If you go back to the initial love fest over the A7R, many of the issues were being denied by Sony AND by many fairly respected shooters here ... I even tried to get with the program thinking it would just take some practice or better understanding of the camera which is generally acknowledged as being quite complex.

    Perception: Here was a very portable camera, easy to take with, perfect for some of the work I do, decisive moment stuff and the like ... plus high resolution for some other type work.

    Reality: The lag turned out to be the biggest issue manifested by missed moments ... timing for which I am usually known for by my clients (mostly with a M camera). The high res was effected by the shutter slap with some key lenses, and people were working through a number of solutions for that. Plus the truncated RAW which Sony never communicated when selling the camera ... which you think is minor, but who wouldn't want a full RAW file with all of the data going in if that's what you paid for? If it was so minor, why did everyone raise such a ruckus about it?

    Finally, I do not know where you bought your camera but there was not a 30 day trial period on the one I bought ... at least not when I bought it.

    - Marc
    I got an A7r too and it was my first Sony camera ever. I think that your perception was partly wrong : I knew from the outset that the A7 won't bring resolution and the A7r won't be a very fast camera allowing decisive moment. There was clearly a choice between the first two models whether you wanted speed (then take an A7 with phase detection and less pixels to move around) or resolution (then buy the A7r).

    I got an A7r because I'm rarely after a decisive moment and I have been perfectly happy with that body. The somewhat lossy compressed raws aren't a huge problem, although it can be detected with close examination, especially for night photography and star photography. The shutter shock was overhyped, only affected the body with very long lenses and too sturdy tripods. I have been more disturbed by the IQ of the lenses : I was lucky with the 55mm and the 24-70mm zoom, but less so with either the 70-200mm (it has much worse corners than my Canon 70-200mm F4 L), or the 16-35mm which @ 24mm is clearly worse than the 24-70mm.

    After much internal debating (high price and bigger, heavier body) I finally got an A7rII and I'm happy with it. Main reason to get it was the speedier AF and the less noisy shutter, the electronic first curtain. Plus I like the rendering of the BSI sensor.

    No camera is perfect. Each comes with limitations and you have to decide whether you can work around them or not. In this case, yes, the A7r has some limitations, but you are over-hyping them. Apart of the decisive moment issue : for that the A7r wasn't the right camera, all reviews and users reports were clear about it.

    I hope that nevertheless you have found ways of enjoying your A7r.
    Last edited by Annna T; 1st November 2015 at 22:05.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    A funny discussion. I own Leicas (M9 & Q) and Sonys (A7IIr & RX100IV). My reasonably healthy eyes and decent screen tell me that The Sony A7IIr sensor beats the one in the SL and Q, by quite a noticeable margin. I can not understand the issue some of the Leica owners seem to have with this- Hey, a Nissan GT-R wipes the floor with a 911 Carrera 4s, spec wise and on track and costs half a 911 Carrera less.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    The A7RII is an entirely different camera to the A7.
    Funny the batteries look identical. You think that's it? A7II sensor is the same as A7 except with IBIS. Guess that one's already outdated and can't be included, wow that was fast.

    I take it you not have owned a digital Leica, just to be clear, correct?

    @Bill Sorry I don't buy the Mx is so fragile. Been in every war zone since Vietnam. Jeez how did they ever focus? I ski with mine all the time in the winter. In the summer here is it's main bag, the black one, on the tank:


    DSC02411 by unoh7, on Flickr

    It goes on very rough trails. For years. Still seems to focus fine with even the fast lenses. I'm sure it will need calibration. That's normal and can be done by many techs or by ones self. The M8 was not stopped by needing filters for color. You just put the filter on. The current M9 delimitation issues take hold over considerable time, so it's not a surprise.

    If you put the A7 next to the M9 the difference is pretty obvious. The Sony screen and controls are way more in harms way, the whole build is far cheaper. Yes the battery doors are better now, I hear, and the narrow mount is better built. But overall I'm skeptical the camera is more sturdy. It's bigger, yes. Now there is IBIS to complicate things. Drop the M9, it may go out of calibration. Drop the Sony, it may stop working.

    "Weatherproof" is a stretch compared to Canikon. Of course all cameras may fail. It's always possible. I'd like to see the Sony more sturdy. For 3kUSD I would like to see a great build. Forgetting the context of comparison, is that so unreasonable?

    Back to SL, from what I can see, better built, more flexible, better lens options, WAY better EVF, nicer interface, better files. It's also bigger and more than double the price, with less pixels and less DR. Any of those criteria may rise or fall in an individuals priorities, but let's not pretend there is no contest here.

    Plenty of perfectly sane photographers would prefer to own the SL over the A7r2. Not for nothing.
    Last edited by uhoh7; 1st November 2015 at 22:34.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Hi Guy,

    Thanks for commenting.

    With regard to the SL2 I would think that it can be a very good camera, albeit I find that making a camera with what is supposed be the best lenses and a 24 MP sensor is not really optimal.

    With the Sony A7rII there seems to be three camps, those who overhype it and sound like it is the second coming of Jesus, those who trash it and those who use it to make images.

    Personally, I see a camera as a part of an imaging system. That is it should deliver very good images. The Sony A7rII does that. It is a very usable camera, at least in my experience.

    There are things I don't like. Small battery -> short battery life. Menu system is quite messy. But, I can set up my camera with decent presets so I seldom need to go into those menus. I only needed two batteries a day on my recent travels, but I am slow shooter.

    A small observation. Some posted a message starting with:
    "DPR can hardly be considered an honest or competent broker, …"

    That statement may be out of context, but it caught my eye. DPReviews gives anyone interested the opportunity to compare well shot studio images between any cameras. It is a good service to the community and deserves some respect.

    Now, any 42 MP camera will blow away any 24 MP camera in resolution, at least if paired with a decent lens. The poster can complain that DPReview tested the SL with a zoom lens while the Sony was tested with a prime. But, that zoom is the only available lens for the SL right now. Also, good zooms can be made, and that Leica zoom is priced like 4-5 pices of the Sony 55/1.8, it ought to be good.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The Leica M8 was exactly like the A7 a beta product. There is zero difference. I really want someone to even try telling me different. I had thousands of dollars in 2 M8 bodies that spent 6 months in Germany for sudden death syndrome . Not 1 but 2. If I was not a friend of Leica with 2 loaners I was totally out of business. I don't forget these things. I mean out of business I had nothing to do business with. Talk about failure. Now ask me how often I go into the Leica forum and bitch about that. It's been years since I even said anything. Cameras are cameras there made bad sometimes they fail often. That's life. Regardless of what folks think of the A7r it produces till this day outstanding images. Anyone that thought they where not buying a beta product is very naive. The SL is a beta product to that line. If you don't realize that again your naive. That does not always mean it's bad but it does mean they are untested. That's the risk you take. Don't like that risk don't spend the money. But the Sony owners can join me in my new club. I shoot **** cameras and I'm proud group. Sign up coming on the 11 o'clock news.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Funny the batteries look identical. You think that's it? A7II sensor is the same as A7 except with IBIS. Guess that one's already outdated and can't be included, wow that was fast.

    I take it you not have owned a digital Leica, just to be clear, correct?

    @Bill Sorry I don't buy the Mx is so fragile. Been in every war zone since Vietnam. Jeez how did they ever focus? I ski with mine all the time in the winter. In the summer here is it's main bag, the black one, on the tank:


    DSC02411 by unoh7, on Flickr

    It goes on very rough trails. For years. Still seems to focus fine with even the fast lenses. I'm sure it will need calibration. That's normal and can be done by many techs or by ones self. The M8 was not stopped by needing filters for color. You just put the filter on. The current M9 delimitation issues take hold over considerable time, so it's not a surprise.

    If you put the A7 next to the M9 the difference is pretty obvious. The Sony screen and controls are way more in harms way, the whole build is far cheaper. Yes the battery doors are better now, I hear, and the narrow mount is better built. But overall I'm skeptical the camera is more sturdy. It's bigger, yes. Now there is IBIS to complicate things.

    "Weatherproof" is a stretch compared to Canikon. Of course all cameras may fail. It's always possible. I'd like to see the Sony more sturdy. For 3kUSD I would like to see a great build.
    Glad you have had a great experience with your Leicas in terms of RF ruggedness. I would certainly feel differently if I had not experienced so many issues over so many decades with so many Leica M's. Of course, I have also read thread after thread after thread of careful users complain about calibration of every sort - lens to lens variation, this one will focus close but not far, this RF should be calibrated this way for wide open shooting and this way for stopped down shooting. "I just sent six lenses and both bodies to Solm's to be calibrated together, thank goodness I have my iPhone to use for the next four months." Not all of these calibration issues would be easily handled with a tiny screwdriver and a picture of which itty-bitty screw to turn pulled from the Internet.

    The filters were a huge screw up and they cost a lot more than $400 if you could even find them and that was to use the camera as intended and they were still really needed to some degree on the M9. Not to mention, some people hate putting filters on their glass because of the issues that causes. Also, stacking filters is no fun.

    Using the cameras in every war zone because they were the best small choice available means very little. Those incredible war images aren't the same razor sharp images we expect today. There is a reason not many war zone images are made with Leica RF anymore despite their storied history.

    Just to say it, I could get great shots with an out of calibration RF at wide aperatures. I just had to know how it was out of calibration. Then, stationary objects were easy. Moving objects harder. Change lenses and .. hey, it's anybody's guess unless I knew how it was out of calibration with that lens also.

    I should mention that I did a lot of wide open shooting. Partially because the look appealed to me and partially because of my subject matter. If I spent all day shooting at mid to far distances at F/8 that would cover a lot of sins. If I never shot multiple shots rapidly that would not be an issue. If I was going to use one filter and one filter only then super duper.

    I spent a lot of time twisting those little adjustment screws around to make sure my Noctilux and Summiluxes focused right where I wanted them to when shooting fast, furious and wide open.

    When you want eyes in focus, you want eyes in focus.

    Nothing does that like my A7r2.

    Have yet to break off a mirror or control on any camera, ever.

    Guess that will happen tomorrow now.

    Never said the A series is weatherproof. I think the newer ones are a lot better. I said I would not hesitate to use them in the rain, in a bag, just like my Leicas.

    Got some great shots last night of my family at Halloween using my A7s2. My lens was the 35/1.5 FE. Several of my favorites were over ISO 50,000. Some were over 100,000 and I still had to pull shadows. Tonight on my 15" computer slide show, which I had to repeat over an over because everyone wants to sit close, it was nothing but love.

    When I handed my camera to a famous movie director to take a photo of me with my family, his comment was "Wow, this camera is a lot smaller than mine", as he handed his mega-ton Canon over to his wife to hold for a moment.

    I said "I'm secure that way," then I smiled and said "Cheese."

    -Bill

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    A funny discussion. I own Leicas (M9 & Q) and Sonys (A7IIr & RX100IV). My reasonably healthy eyes and decent screen tell me that The Sony A7IIr sensor beats the one in the SL and Q, by quite a noticeable margin. I can not understand the issue some of the Leica owners seem to have with this- Hey, a Nissan GT-R wipes the floor with a 911 Carrera 4s, spec wise and on track and costs half a 911 Carrera less.
    The real judges of cars are those who drive them - how many cup holders in the Nissan and can I fit a can of coke in one - that would be a game changer for me- my GT3-RS doesn't have one!!!
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The real judges of cars are those who drive them - how many cup holders in the Nissan and can I fit a can of coke in one - that would be a game changer for me- my GT3-RS doesn't have one!!!
    The GT3-RS is in another league, also price wise
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL
    Absolutely easy answer. The insanely versatile A7r2 with Eye Detect AF and great low light files without banding would be my choice. IBIS would put it over the top that it is already over.

    I was shooting my A7s2 with my 35/1.4 at ISO over 100,000 at 1/15 of a second handheld last night and the results were wonderful. The A7r2 will come close to that when downsized.

    The SL cannot shoot in that same ballpark. Not to mention, when I wanted to be in a photo I would hand the camera to anyone and say push this. Viola, super photo. Try that with the MF 50 APO. "Oh, just turn this until you see that then stop and rock it back and forth for awhile. Wait, did you just step 12 inches closer? Okay, do it again. Stop leaning in please. Look, just put the aperature to f/8. The aperature. It is this dial on the lens. Yes, on the actual lens. What do you mean the image is too dark now? Hold on, don't everyone leave. We can do this if we pull together or use my phone with the built in flash. Okay, here is my phone."

    Easy answer.

    -Bill

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL
    I'd take the SL + 50 APO but just to cure my personal curiosity about the camera, it's just one day so even if I totally dislike it (which it most probably not the case) any self inflicted torture will be over very soon.

    However if the experiment is you can buy either one at the same price to use for the next ~5years I'd take the A7R2 + 55/1.8. This obviously assumes you are not allowed to choose the SL + 50 APO, sell it and buy two A7R2's + lenses instead.
    My Pics
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL
    Will put the SL, FS with a 20% premium. Buy 3 A7r II later. Convert one to UV only. Two for regular use. Already have the 55/1.8 and I will use the 50/2 AA as well.

    The only thing that goes for a Leica M is its iconic looks. The SL is b#%^ ugly.

    Will enjoy the xotic location. No shooting.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    If I had a camera carved out one piece of solid gold I would defend it against anything better made from plastic till kingdom comes.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I'd take one look at the SL and think WOW BABY you are SSOOOOOOOOOO beautiful...I'm looking at that awesome retro design and seeing a naked Salma Hayek....yah baby thats what I 'm talking about!!!! - a truly sexy camera I an add to my harem...

    then I'd say to the Leica boutique sales rep..(.I fancy the young girl in the London store - it is close to my offices in Mayfair ) ...

    "sweet thing - forget the loaner SL - give me two new ones right now and two of those zoom lenses it comes with so I can do a proper lens test back at the farm..and ditch the lessor of the two..
    she'd smile back at me (thinking of the sales commission she is going to score)

    and I would casually toss the A7R11 loaner into the nearest bin on my way out.


    am I doing this trolling / fight fest thing right?

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL
    The A7r2. The lenses are comparable, the A7r2 has nearly twice the resolution, IBIS, better dynamic range, and I am told can make a great dry Gin Martini with a twist of lemon at the end of the day.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL
    I will take the one with a lens that can auto-focus reliably and is made by a company that knows how to mass produce reliable digital cameras and and makes its own sensors. I am done with crappy electronics, sensor banding, sensor corrosion, waiting for 5 months so that some magic genius can adjust my NEW camera and NEW lenses in Germany which should have been adjusted already before they left the shop floor, failed AF on my 3 S lenses, etc. Today's Leica is full of...##@@$. Yeah, this is coming from a guy who has actually used the stuff.

    Next question?
    Last edited by jaree; 2nd November 2015 at 05:17.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Here is a little thought experiment:

    You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

    One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

    Which is it?

    Be honest LOL
    The one thing I have not used is the SL, so naturally I would be curious about it. However, since it's an exotic location, I would rely on something I know (instead of fiddling around and miss the moments). That would be the A7R2 with 50 APO . If I can send it to Kolari for the mod, even better.

    Now if I can have one of these combo, I would take the most expensive one . Try it, sell it and get what I really want.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    No interest in the Sony at all for me ...
    From the responses, I would guess this is the Sony forum. Wave the flag!

    G

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