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Thread: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

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    DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I don't often look at DPR, but I glanced and saw this preliminary review, which others may have seen before:

    Studio tests and samples: Leica SL: Digital Photography Review

    It allows you to look at 100% test files with SL and RII (or Nikon, Canon, etc., models) for resolution and dynamic range. The resolution tests are necessarily a bit skewed because they had only the SL's zoom lens, whereas the RII is a prime. Nevertheless the Sony resolution looks noticeably higher in the magnified files. And the dynamic range tests are affected only to a small degree by the lens, and they show more noise at high ISO with SL. I'm not so interested in high ISOs, but the same data means more processing latitude with RII.

    I wasn't about to get on a list for an SL. But it's nice to be reassured there'd be no reason for it, from the standpoint of these two aspects of IQ.

    Kirk
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Many thanks Kirk. I know the A7r2 was the correct decision for me.

    Here http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/561...tml#post666428 post #97 are some shots with the WATE.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 29th October 2015 at 01:57.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I posted this below already on the Leica SL thread, but think it is worth showing it here again - and YES, the A7RII seems to be a great camera after looking into all these comparisons:

    The reviews from dpreviw do not look too exciting. I myself downloaded lot of the RAW studio samples, imported in LR and compared to other cameras and I was not amused. Definitely all the other 24MP cameras hold pretty nicely up to the SL, sometimes look even sharper. If this is a result of the different sensors or also a negative impact coming from the 24-90 zoom I cannot say.

    Once comparing to samples from D810, 5DSR or A7RII, the differences become of course even more obvious, as with their higher resolution sensors these cameras offer much more detail - at least in lower ISO ranges. The optimum IQ seems to come from the A7RII, followed by the D810 (although they are pretty much on par) and then the 5DSR.

    If looking at the dpreview real world SL samples (also downloaded RAWs and imported in LR) most of the samples look definitely impressive IMHO, maybe resulting from the fact that there is no direct comparison possible. So overall my conclusion from that is, the SL seems to be a pretty capable camera, but definitely not better than most of the competition and definitely with disadvantages in overall resolution compared to the higher MP-models, but with a much higher price than all the others - well no wonder about that, as it is a Leica and also should have the overall qualities to justify that higher price.

    What remains then is the fact that the SL seems to be a great tool for using M, R and S glass and I have no doubts with the availability of native SL lenses, especially primes, it will excel. But these SL lenses are more than 1 year out, so if there is no immediate need to bring the other M, R, S glass to life, then the steep price of the SL seems to be hard to justify - at least for me and at least for now.

    But the overall move of Leica to develop such a FF mirrorless camera is definitely a bold move and sure enough this is a great camera, if one can make the right use of it (see my concerns above). And hopefully this will finally wake up the CaNikon's!
    Last edited by ptomsu; 29th October 2015 at 11:00.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Motivated by these results I tried to get hold of an A7RIi here in Austria, but it is still everywhere either not listed, or listed as to be ordered. Which is kind of weird given the obvious big success of this camera all over the world - or am I missing something?
    That's strange. I know at least four stores in Zurich that has it in stock since release except between mid of august till beginn of september. I've bought my A7RII directly on the first day of release without preordering it. Zurich is switzerland and not austria but still too close for this difference.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by seb View Post
    That's strange. I know at least four stores in Zurich that has it in stock since release except between mid of august till beginn of september. I've bought my A7RII directly on the first day of release without preordering it. Zurich is switzerland and not austria but still too close for this difference.
    I was surprised myself.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I was surprised myself.
    I wish you good luck to find any soon. It's a great camera.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    I don't often look at DPR, but I glanced and saw this preliminary review, which others may have seen before:

    Studio tests and samples: Leica SL: Digital Photography Review

    It allows you to look at 100% test files with SL and RII (or Nikon, Canon, etc., models) for resolution and dynamic range. The resolution tests are necessarily a bit skewed because they had only the SL's zoom lens, whereas the RII is a prime. Nevertheless the Sony resolution looks noticeably higher in the magnified files. And the dynamic range tests are affected only to a small degree by the lens, and they show more noise at high ISO with SL. I'm not so interested in high ISOs, but the same data means more processing latitude with RII.

    I wasn't about to get on a list for an SL. But it's nice to be reassured there'd be no reason for it, from the standpoint of these two aspects of IQ.

    Kirk
    My Samsung NX1 also appears to beat the SL in the DR comparison tool.

    Of course, the Samsung has an insanely good APS-C BSI sensor in it.

    -Bill

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    SL looks like a respectable performer, somewhat better than my A7 and similar to the D750.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    From the DP Review comparison the SL looks like a Leica failure.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Presumably not all the way to insane. DPR offered two points of evidence – resolution and processing latitude are just two variables. The resolution test was skewed, as I mentioned, by lack of a prime to use for the test. And DPR isn't my favorite 'authority.'

    The point seems simply that the A7RII was in no way embarrassed in the comparison, and is the better current choice for many because it exists, whereas it'll take a long time for the SL to become a workable system (for those who don't pair it with an S, or don't own a shelf of R lenses).

    I'm still loyal to Leica lenses and use A7RII mainly with WATE and MATE, which are one version of the best of both worlds.

    Kirk

    PS, I assume that by the time the SL system matures, there'll be a number of iterations – SL-2, SL-3, SL-N...– as with the R series. In other words, a sane course of development.
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 29th October 2015 at 11:27. Reason: PS
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    Presumably not all the way to insane. DPR offered two points of evidence – resolution and processing latitude are just two variables. The resolution test was skewed, as I mentioned, by lack of a prime to use for the test. And DPR isn't my favorite 'authority.'

    The point seems simply that the A7RII was in no way embarrassed in the comparison, and is the better current choice for many because it exists, whereas it'll take a long time for the SL to become a workable system (for those who don't pair it with an S, or don't own a shelf of R lenses).

    I'm still loyal to Leica lenses and use A7RII mainly with WATE and MATE, which are one version of the best of both worlds.

    Kirk
    I agree on the WATE, please see post #2 above how it performs on my A7r2.
    I don't own the MATE, either version.
    The A7r2 also works brilliantly well with my Leica R lenses.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I agree on the WATE, please see post #2 above how it performs on my A7r2.
    I don't own the MATE, either version.
    The A7r2 also works brilliantly well with my Leica R lenses.
    A sad day for me as I put my WATE up for sale today as I no longer have the M and for me it feels a bit like the end of an era. The only leica M mount lens I have left is the apo/telyt 135. I have loved the WATE for many years but just wasn't satisfied with it's corner behaviour on the A7rII and now have the CV25 mkIII which is excellent and will get the new Zeiss loxia 21 when it comes out. In time I will probably get a 2nd A7rII as though I have the A7s I miss having 2 cameras with the same size sensors

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post

    PS, I assume that by the time the SL system matures, there'll be a number of iterations – SL-2, SL-3, SL-N...– as with the R series. In other words, a sane course of development.
    Assuming there are no Hermes, Honky tOnk, Hello Kitty, etc versions. I hope they sell a few to make it to SL (type xxx)- they dont do 2, 3, 4 etc anymore.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    A sad day for me as I put my WATE up for sale today as I no longer have the M and for me it feels a bit like the end of an era. The only leica M mount lens I have left is the apo/telyt 135. I have loved the WATE for many years but just wasn't satisfied with it's corner behaviour on the A7rII and now have the CV25 mkIII which is excellent and will get the new Zeiss loxia 21 when it comes out. In time I will probably get a 2nd A7rII as though I have the A7s I miss having 2 cameras with the same size sensors
    Wow, never heard of any corner issues with the A7's and the WATE. Could you elaborate a bit on it because I have no issues with my A7II and WATE.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Given the choice I will take the Leica SL over any Sony body, with or without the caveat I could not sell it.

    For me the Leica is superior to any Sony body available today. By a large margin. It should be considering the price

    Today I have two main camera bodies, M9 and a7.mod. I know the Sonys very well. I've also followed the release of the SL closely.

    If your like your Sony and are happy with it, more power to you. Why go after the Leica SL? But if some insist on claiming any Sony is obviously superior to the SL, be prepared to hear about the less than perfect aspects of the Sony. They are legion.

    Do I see lots of great shots from Sony shooters? Yes I do. I see wonderful photography from all sorts of systems.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Given the choice I will take the Leica SL over any Sony body, with or without the caveat I could not sell it.

    For me the Leica is superior to any Sony body available today. By a large margin. It should be considering the price

    Today I have two main camera bodies, M9 and a7.mod. I know the Sonys very well. I've also followed the release of the SL closely.

    If your like your Sony and are happy with it, more power to you. Why go after the Leica SL? But if some insist on claiming any Sony is obviously superior to the SL, be prepared to hear about the less than perfect aspects of the Sony. They are legion.

    Do I see lots of great shots from Sony shooters? Yes I do. I see wonderful photography from all sorts of systems.
    Charlie, you keep insisting on claiming this yet-released Leica to be superior than any Sony body available today, and I, honestly, can't see it. Both have their pros and cons, and for my style of shooting, the SL doesn't offer anything appealing. This kind of Leica superiority talk might be more fitting to post in a Leica forum. I don't find myself going to Canikon or Leica forum claiming my Sony is superior to any of their body.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    "For me the Leica is superior to any Sony body available today."

    Your timeline seems mixed up, or you mean some other model of Leica, or you haven't read this particular thread very closely?

    (a) Zero Leica SLs are "available today." Bodies with one lens are promised for the future.

    (b) The Sony is available today as a limited, growing, and useful system.

    (c) The forthcoming Leica SL is not demonstrably superior to the present Sony with regard to at least two important variables: (a) resolution and (b) dynamic range/processing latitude.

    (d) The T autofocus lens lineup that will comprise an SL system does not have a clear or proximate timeline. In the meantime available prime lenses are only R, S, and some M.

    (e) By the time an "available today" SL system exists, neither the original SL body nor the A7rII is likely to be either company's current offering.

    These are trying to be factual statements. Are there any you actually disagree with?

    Kirk

    BTW, had you noticed that many (most?) of the folks who've posted on this thread use both Sony and Leica?
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 29th October 2015 at 20:07.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Given the choice I will take the Leica SL over any Sony body, with or without the caveat I could not sell it.

    For me the Leica is superior to any Sony body available today. By a large margin. It should be considering the price

    Today I have two main camera bodies, M9 and a7.mod. I know the Sonys very well. I've also followed the release of the SL closely.

    If your like your Sony and are happy with it, more power to you. Why go after the Leica SL? But if some insist on claiming any Sony is obviously superior to the SL, be prepared to hear about the less than perfect aspects of the Sony. They are legion.

    Do I see lots of great shots from Sony shooters? Yes I do. I see wonderful photography from all sorts of systems.
    Honestly you seem angry in your post. Just comes across that way but this body is not out yet to get a really good idea about it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Charlie, you keep insisting on claiming this yet-released Leica to be superior than any Sony body available today, and I, honestly, can't see it. Both have their pros and cons, and for my style of shooting, the SL doesn't offer anything appealing. This kind of Leica superiority talk might be more fitting to post in a Leica forum. I don't find myself going to Canikon or Leica forum claiming my Sony is superior to any of their body.
    First off, let's be clear. I am not insisting it is the better body for Guy, you, or anyone but me and my lenses

    It is not about "Leica superiority". I was never a fan of the Crop Leicas. I was a Sony fan before I was ever a Leica fan. Calling someone who likes a lens or camera system a fanboy, which I get all the time, is just an excuse not to consider their point of view. Sure, there are people who just like every Chevy. Not me. Takes me quite a awhile to work up to real admiration. And I am not afraid to withdraw it when my experience says it's not deserved.

    Posts about "Leica Failure" draw no comment, but mine is in the wrong place in a thread about comparing the two cameras?

    Seriously?

    Why would that not be frustrating?

    In general and not thinking of anybody in particular; I'm really not sure which is more silly: puppydog love for a system or blind antipathy towards one. Intentionally or not even the thread title is a slur against the SL. I think Leica did a good job on the SL, in many ways, and deserves a defense. To controversial to make the case?

    Since the thread is about comparison, there is really no way around looking at why somebody like me really might prefer the SL, is there?

    Unless of course, it's just about "us and them".
    Last edited by uhoh7; 29th October 2015 at 20:43.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I don't have any corner issues with mine. Perhaps a little vignetting but that is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Wow, never heard of any corner issues with the A7's and the WATE. Could you elaborate a bit on it because I have no issues with my A7II and WATE.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    I don't have any corner issues with mine. Perhaps a little vignetting but that is it.
    Re: WATE: From what people report, there might be more variation among WATE copies than other Leica lenses. They must be hard to build and adjust.

    As a rule I do no sharpening (not even the default LR/ACR sharpening), and I have no corner problems at 18 and 21mm. But at 16mm I sometimes have to touch up the bottom corners a bit with the Photokit 'creative' sharpener, so that corner sharpness more closely matches the center.

    @ Charlie: Perhaps you misread the title and/or thread. It wasn't about general or personal-preference comparisons; it was about some limited data offered by DPReview on two points of comparison: resolution, and dynamic range ( = post-processing latitude). The SL, perhaps because no prime lenses are available, does not come out on top in comparison to several other brands, for example Nikon and Sony. You can look at magnified JPG and RAW test shots for yourself. Ptomsu looks at the evidence closely in Post #3. If on this evidence about these two points you come to different conclusions, let us know?

    There's always plenty of room for more subjective differences of opinion about handling, price, differences of style, habit, etc. Other threads are full of comments and even some venting about same.

    Kirk
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 29th October 2015 at 21:29.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post

    For me the Leica is superior to any Sony body available today. By a large margin. It should be considering the price .
    By the same token, the 60 year edition without a LCD or the Lenny Scratched edition should be even better?
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    First off, let's be clear. I am not insisting it is the better body for Guy, you, or anyone but me and my lenses

    It is not about "Leica superiority". I was never a fan of the Crop Leicas. I was a Sony fan before I was ever a Leica fan. Calling someone who likes a lens or camera system a fanboy, which I get all the time, is just an excuse not to consider their point of view. Sure, there are people who just like every Chevy. Not me. Takes me quite a awhile to work up to real admiration. And I am not afraid to withdraw it when my experience says it's not deserved.

    Posts about "Leica Failure" draw no comment, but mine is in the wrong place in a thread about comparing the two cameras?

    Seriously?

    Why would that not be frustrating?

    In general and not thinking of anybody in particular; I'm really not sure which is more silly: puppydog love for a system or blind antipathy towards one. Intentionally or not even the thread title is a slur against the SL. I think Leica did a good job on the SL, in many ways, and deserves a defense. To controversial to make the case?

    Since the thread is about comparison, there is really no way around looking at why somebody like me really might prefer the SL, is there?

    Unless of course, it's just about "us and them".
    Just to keep it short, I don't see any puppydog love or blind antipathy here. All I see are respectable photographers who know their preferences. Nothing here is frustrating. Those that know they like the SL are already over at the Leica SL thread in the Leica forum. If DPreview's result is somehow favorable to the Leica, you are probably going to see a thread over there comparing it to other FF bodies.

    And I admit, I was really intrigued by this SL when it was first announced. The biggest EVF certainly has its appeal. But after more reading, I don't see how I would get it over the A7RII. And yes, one of the reasons is the price they are asking.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    @ Charlie: Perhaps you misread the title and/or thread. It wasn't about general or personal-preference comparisons; it was about some limited data offered by DPReview on two points of comparison: resolution, and dynamic range ( = post-processing latitude). The SL, perhaps because no prime lenses are available, did not come out on top in comparison to several others, including Nikon and Sony. You can look at magnified JPG and RAW test shots for yourself. Ptomsu looks at the evidence closely in Post #3. If on this evidence about these two points you come to different conclusions, let us know?

    Kirk
    DPR can hardly be considered an honest or competent broker, unless you are in the market for justification of one preference or the other. The site never completed a full review of the M9. They never understood either the Nex-5 or A7 when first introduced, and awarded caveat laden "silver" awards to both ground breaking cameras. They intentionally made the SL look as silly as possible in their "preview" images of the camera in the hands of the smallest person they could find.

    As to the "new data". I don't see anything new there. A zoom is a zoom and it's not a prime. ISO performance is about the same as A7II- that was already clear, and yes, we had hoped for better. Where they are probably wrong is saying it's as good as the Q. Real photographers say not Quite. The camera has 24mp, not 42mp. For dynamic range, on paper the Sony A7r2 is better. Why do I say on paper? Because I work with Sony RAWS in lightroom every day. On paper the A7 kills the M9 in DR. In practice the Sony RAWS are terrible compared to the M9, where you can pull up shadows from nothing with little new noise. Pulling Sony shadows degrades the image in lightroom. The M9 RAW file size is 36mp, the A7 is 24mp.

    But the A7r2 may be much better and when uncompressed RAWs come, maybe they can make files as nice to edit as the Leicas, Canons, or Nikons. For overall DR, the Sony r2 should be better, and of course it has many pixels. Tiny ones, but many.

    Like a 67 Mustang with a 427, the A7r2 has raw power in there, and the processor is good too.

    But those Mustangs never won very many races. Other 'data' was more important, it turns out.
    Last edited by uhoh7; 29th October 2015 at 21:55.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    A sad day for me as I put my WATE up for sale today as I no longer have the M and for me it feels a bit like the end of an era. The only leica M mount lens I have left is the apo/telyt 135. I have loved the WATE for many years but just wasn't satisfied with it's corner behaviour on the A7rII and now have the CV25 mkIII which is excellent and will get the new Zeiss loxia 21 when it comes out. In time I will probably get a 2nd A7rII as though I have the A7s I miss having 2 cameras with the same size sensors
    Thanks David, I would feel the same way about not having the WATE.

    The WATE is certainly not perfect but is getting more use on my A7r2 than it does on my M9. I'll keep it for good but may add other WA lenses like the CV15 mk III (sic!) you have, but I probably will prefer the FE version of one of the announced new 15, 12, and 10 mm CV lenses.

    I understand the APO-Telyt-M 135/3.4 is an outstanding lens. At the time I bought instead the TE 135/4, its predecessor, that also has an excellent reputation. My copies of that lens have certainly served me well. The reason I preferred that lens was, but still is, that I can use its lens head with an adapted short focus mount on my Nikon cameras. So it has been a favorite landscape lens on my D3, and now on my D800E. I found it fairly easy to focus with the green confirmation dot in the D3 or D800E viewfinder, but of course, it's even easier and more accurate on an A7r/2 camera. Of course, on the A7r/2 one can use either the adapted short focus mount, followed by an Nikon F to Sony E adapter or one can adapt the regular M mount with an Leica M to Sony E adapter.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    A zoom is a zoom and it's not a prime.
    Ah, come on! At $5000, by your own estimate, it has got to do better than my Zony lenses.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    DPR can hardly be considered an honest or competent broker, unless you are in the market for justification of one preference or the other. The site never completed a full review of the M9. They never understood either the Nex-5 or A7 when first introduced, and awarded caveat laden "silver" awards to both ground breaking cameras. They intentionally made the SL look as silly as possible in their "preview" images of the camera in the hands of the smallest person they could find.

    As to the "new data". I don't see anything new there. A zoom is a zoom and it's not a prime. ISO performance is about the same as A7II- that was already clear, and yes, we had hoped for better. Where they are probably wrong is saying it's as good as the Q. Real photographers say not Quite. The camera has 24mp, not 42mp. For dynamic range, on paper the Sony A7r2 is better. Why do I say on paper? Because I work with Sony RAWS in lightroom every day. On paper the A7 kills the M9 in DR. In practice the Sony RAWS are terrible compared to the M9, where you can pull up shadows from nothing with little new noise. Pulling Sony shadows degrades the image in lightroom. The M9 RAW file size is 36mp, the A7 is 24mp.

    But the A7r2 may be much better and when uncompressed RAWs come, maybe they can make files as nice to edit as the Leicas, Canons, or Nikons. For overall DR, the Sony r2 should be better, and of course it has many pixels. Tiny ones, but many.

    Like a 67 Mustang with a 427, the A7r2 has raw power in there, and the processor is good too.

    But those Mustangs never won very many races. Other 'data' was more important, it turns out.
    I have an A7 and an A7r2. I owned and shot extensively in low light conditions with a Leica M9.

    The M9 files have a certain magic quality that is hard to pin down to objective numbers. But, it was a low light cripple. The A7 does better.

    The A7r2, compressed RAW or even JPEGs, is in a whole different league compared to either camera in terms of low light. It is not any kind of contest whatsoever. It is also very good just for DR and pulling up shadows, better than my old M9 without question. The Uncompressed RAW's are, no doubt, even better.

    The A7r2 files also have that certain something. Not the identical magic quality as the M9 but something uniquely special and beautiful. The sensor has more DR, greater low light sensitivity and more pixels.

    I loved the unique look I got from my M9. But, I get a special look from my A7r2 as well. And a lot more flexibility.

    I am not knocking Leica. I still have the IIIa I shot with as a boy.

    Far more importantly, my wife just asked what lens do I want for Christmas??

    Best ... Wife ... Ever

    -Bill
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    She need a extra husband. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    She need a extra husband. LOL
    LOL. She says she needs a wife of her own.

    -Bill
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Ah, come on! At $5000, by your own estimate, it has got to do better than my Zony lenses.
    It's not unreasonable to expect the Leica 24-90 to perform on par with a prime lens. If not, what's the point of paying $5000 to lug around a huge piece of glass that weighs over 2.5lb and is slow relative to competing pro-zooms ??

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It's not unreasonable to expect the Leica 24-90 to perform on par with a prime lens. If not, what's the point of paying $5000 to lug around a huge piece of glass that weighs over 2.5lb and is slow relative to competing pro-zooms ??
    Agree that it is a fat heavy beast to carry. But how about someone who does not want to carry 3 primes and can accept a slightly lower IQ? I find changing lenses in the field a big hassle and would love to have a "slow" Zoom lens that can deliver at F5.6.

    Not saying that $5,000 justifies it, but I don't expect Leica to sell a new FF AF lens for $1,500 either - unless they charge a lot more, how can they say that it is the highest quality?!!!

    BTW, my Leica R 100 APO Elmarit is about 1.7lb. And that is one fixed focal length lens.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    Not saying that $5,000 justifies it, but I don't expect Leica to sell a new FF AF lens for $1,500 either - unless they charge a lot more, how can they say that it is the highest quality?!!!
    I have no clue if the zoom is worth having or not. I'd need to see many more shots. But compared to the price and production quality of the Sony FE 35/1.4 and FE 90/2.8, it may be a good deal:
    LensRentals.com - Sony E Mount Lens Optical Bench Tests

    Other critical lenses in the Sony system, like the 1635 and 35/2.8 are notorious for decentered copies. But hey, you got 42mp! Just crop your way out of that soft side, right?

    Is it Sony-bashing to point out these issues? What would you say about a Canon lens which was so often out of spec?

    I admit, the thought of a forum buddy shelling out 1600USD for a lens in good faith and getting who knows what, makes me see red.
    Last edited by uhoh7; 30th October 2015 at 18:56.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I looked at the test and am impressed again with the Leica Q.
    But I guess this post is more about ICL Cameras.

    I wonder more what large prints from all would look like.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Tim, you got me to look again and I too like the Q. Ah, if only it were 35mm....

    Kirk
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Wow, never heard of any corner issues with the A7's and the WATE. Could you elaborate a bit on it because I have no issues with my A7II and WATE.
    Firstly I have to say that putting the WATE up for sale was a very hard decision as it is indeed a lovely lens and one I have cherished since I buying it for the M8 but it was hardly getting any use anymore. So why? I also have the FE16-35 and the CV15 mk III and when comparing all 3 lenses at the widest setting I was finding that the corners on the FE16-35 and WATE to be similar but the CV15 mkIII shows noticeably better detail in these areas. Basically I find the CV15 to be the best performer and easiest to use at the widest setting. The FE16-35 is be good but can be a pain to focus evenly for landscape work. The CV 15 on the A7rII can be easily cropped to say 18mm without losing a lot of pixels so I am finding that the CV15 is the best ultra-wide for me. I know they say never sell a leica lens but I have no intention of buying back into the M system and in fact want to get a 2nd A7rII body and the upcoming Zeiss loxia 21/2.8 looks to be an excellent lens so what with selling the WATE and maybe the the FE16-35 I can get this lens and another A7rII body. Anyway this is all my rationalisation to myself for selling the WATE so if anyone want to try to talk me out of it feel free

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Firstly I have to say that putting the WATE up for sale was a very hard decision as it is indeed a lovely lens and one I have cherished since I buying it for the M8 but it was hardly getting any use anymore. So why? I also have the FE16-35 and the CV15 mk III and when comparing all 3 lenses at the widest setting I was finding that the corners on the FE16-35 and WATE to be similar but the CV15 mkIII shows noticeably better detail in these areas. Basically I find the CV15 to be the best performer and easiest to use at the widest setting. The FE16-35 is be good but can be a pain to focus evenly for landscape work. The CV 15 on the A7rII can be easily cropped to say 18mm without losing a lot of pixels so I am finding that the CV15 is the best ultra-wide for me. I know they say never sell a leica lens but I have no intention of buying back into the M system and in fact want to get a 2nd A7rII body and the upcoming Zeiss loxia 21/2.8 looks to be an excellent lens so what with selling the WATE and maybe the the FE16-35 I can get this lens and another A7rII body. Anyway this is all my rationalisation to myself for selling the WATE so if anyone want to try to talk me out of it feel free
    I sold my WATE and I enjoy my 16-35 FE for my A7 series cameras.

    Leica cameras are fun, no doubt, but when the successor to the M9 plus the APO Summicron 50 were going to cost me about $15,000 I had to think about where Leica was going.

    In my estimation, the days of Leica offering the only small, high quality digital package available were clearly passing and the days of Leica marketing only to wealthy pros and enthusiasts appeared to have arrived.

    Not that Sony's are inexpensive, far from it. And not that Leica cameras are mere toys or jewelry, they are highly capable photographic tools.

    But, for me, the value proposition flipped when micro4/3's gear hit its stride with the Olympus EM5. Shortly after, the Sony's landed in between micro4/3's and Leica's as a high priced but justifiable system. My Sony cameras and lenses were similar in cost to my Nikons.

    Believing the era of buying new Leica gear had largely passed me by, I sold my WATE, my M9, my M8 and plenty of other lenses. I do not regret it.

    I buy camera gear to use it. It is not an investment for me. Nor am I a collector. If I am not using gear it serves me best as a source of funding for gear I will use.

    Sell with impunity I say.

    -Bill
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Same boat Bill. I simply can't afford to be paying the prices for Leica gear anymore. Those days are over but I did have a good run with the DMR,M8 and M9.

    It's kind of a shame that they priced themselves at these levels to block out folks that just can't afford there systems. But that's the nature of it, they just are not doing high volume lower pricing. But they seem to be doing well so best to them. They left a working Pro on the curb. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Let us be honest- how about overpriced and way behind the curve? Why would anyone dump money on that?

    Even Leica will not compare the SL with the A7R II.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    I have no clue if the zoom is worth having or not. I'd need to see many more shots. But compared to the price and production quality of the Sony FE 35/1.4 and FE 90/2.8, it may be a good deal:
    LensRentals.com - Sony E Mount Lens Optical Bench Tests

    Other critical lenses in the Sony system, like the 1635 and 35/2.8 are notorious for decentered copies. But hey, you got 42mp! Just crop your way out of that soft side, right?

    Is it Sony-bashing to point out these issues? What would you say about a Canon lens which was so often out of spec?

    I admit, the thought of a forum buddy shelling out 1600USD for a lens in good faith and getting who knows what, makes me see red.
    Shelling out $5,000 does not mean you will get a better lens. My experience is that Leica's QC is overhyped - my first hand experience with brand new M lenses (35 FLE, SE21 and 50'Lux) bear this out - none of them was perfect out of the box. Some had so obvious glaring issues that the person signing those test certificates that are so proudly touted by Leica as the ultimate measure of a perfect hand-crafted instrument, should be fired from the job.

    No matter how much you spend, it seems be a hit or miss, irrespective of brand. Sorry state of affairs.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Let us be honest- how about overpriced and way behind the curve? Why would anyone dump money on that?
    "To the Leica man, only the best shall suffice. Second best is an oxymoron to the Leica man. It is not in his vocabulary. Second place is worse than losing, because it might be noticed.

    The Leica man doesn't care, or even know, the trifling price of his cameras. This is not relevant. Just like a Porsche, no one buys a Leica because he needs it. He acquires the Leica because he is who he is."

    http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/leica-man.htm

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Me thinks the Sony man doth protest too much.

    Despite advancements in the Sony man's camera, it seems that he still feels so inferior that he must disparage both the products of other makers, and those who choose to use them.

    - Marc
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Me thinks the Sony man doth protest too much.

    Despite advancements in the Sony man's camera, it seems that he still feels so inferior that he must disparage both the products of other makers, and those who choose to use them.

    - Marc
    Ken Rockwell disparages pretty much everything, Sony included.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    This happens pretty often – people post something that I thought was humorous, and others take it to be snarky. The Leica Man sounded like a good joke to me.

    On Jaree's point, I too have had serious problems right out of the box with otherwise beloved Leica products: An M9 with wobbly/disconnected shutter button (whole electronic part of shutter had to be replaced), and a 35 FLE that rattled and didn't 'stay put' at f1.4. Also some repairs that had to be repeated.

    But I don't suppose Sony is any better (viz., decentered lenses).

    Digital cameras are close to being disposable consumer goods? ?

    Kirk
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post

    Digital cameras are close to being disposable consumer goods? ?

    Kirk
    Digital cameras ARE disposable goods, though I imagine the aluminium in the SL and magnesium in the A7Rii may have some value left after the electronics have gone to the landfill.

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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Let us be honest- how about overpriced and way behind the curve? Why would anyone dump money on that?

    Even Leica will not compare the SL with the A7R II.
    Clearly because Leica has cornered the market on users who are all fools!!! There can be no other explanation - seriously all Leica users are just silly ...why they don't see the world the way Sony wants them to see it- is just one of those great mysteries - now solved by me- we Leica users are clearly just idjots...

    anyone want to take my 9 M lenses and 5 S lenses off me - because I am just dying to shoot Sony...please help!!!


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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I had my Sony A7 a year and a half, used it extensively, and evaluated that it didn't suit me nor performed as well as I'd hoped. I sold it, the new owner loves it. I had no problems with it.

    I've had few to no problems with any of my Leica gear since 1969 either. When I did, Leica took care of it courteously and efficiently. Yes, my M9 suffered the sensor corrosion problem. I took the opportunity to upgrade to the M-P, which I consider a much more refined and better performing Leica in all ways compared to the M9. I've had zero problems with it; I expect to be shooting with it a decade from now.

    I have no interest in the comparison between SL and A7r II. Two completely different cameras, far as I'm concerned. I'd rather evaluate the SL on its own merits, and not gauge its performance by a stupid test that presupposes a foolish way to make exposures and correct them. If I'm going to compare the SL to anything, that will be the Leica R8, Leica S, Leica M240, or DSLRs like the Nikon D750.

    To each their own.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    This happens pretty often – people post something that I thought was humorous, and others take it to be snarky. The Leica Man sounded like a good joke to me.

    On Jaree's point, I too have had serious problems right out of the box with otherwise beloved Leica products: An M9 with wobbly/disconnected shutter button (whole electronic part of shutter had to be replaced), and a 35 FLE that rattled and didn't 'stay put' at f1.4. Also some repairs that had to be repeated.

    But I don't suppose Sony is any better (viz., decentered lenses).

    Digital cameras are close to being disposable consumer goods? ?

    Kirk
    No doubt that I also have had my share of Leica trials and tribulations. Most of them rectified eventually.

    In contrast, the trials and tribulations I've had with Sony can never be rectified (a $3,200 Sardine can of a camera with a door slam shutter, predominate lag, smearing EVF, plastic light leaking mount, truncated RAW, stupefying interface ... then adding insult to injury with a slow mid-range zoom providing jaw dropping distortion) ... other than buying the next Sony-II that fixes some of the issues ... but leaves others so I will need to buy the Sony-III, and so on, and so on. To me, that is the very definition of "disposable" as a marketing plan.

    One would think that the whole disposable aspect whould have quieted down by now. It was understandable when digital capture was in its' infancy and milestones were being broached. Today, there are enough highly competent cameras that are more than enough to fill most "real" needs ... with newer advancements for more specialized needs (like 43 meg and a zillion stops of DR).

    As long as we rush to the over hyped, loudly proclaimed next coming of the new/now/new, whether we actually need it or not, then the manufacturers will gladly oblige us and take our money on a regular schedule ... like a photographic version of "Ground Hog Day" ... forever. It's a perfect con job with a mass audience

    A student of mine observed that those that were constantly buying the next this or that seemed to need a new camera/lens/acessory to keep their interest in photography alive, rather than being inspired by ideas and creative explorations.

    BTW, grousing about Leica prices is like Lemmings complaining that the cliff is to high ...

    - Marc
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    Cool Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    I have Leica M9, Chrom and 240. My wish is that Leica won't put inferior sensor in the next M iteration. I don't mind paying more for the red dot as I like their lenses characters so much but not so thrill with behind the curve sensor.
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    24mp just doesn't cut it any more, particularly at these elevated prices. If the reason given on DPR for Leica using a 24mp sensor, namely that anything over 24mp "seemed excessive", then that answer sounds a tad disingenuous. It is more likely that Leica either don't have the right higher resolution sensor option, or don't want to eat in to their even pricier Leica S camera line, which tops out at 37.5mp.

    Check out a studio shot comparison between the SL and a A7RII on DPR. Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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  50. #50
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    Re: DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

    Well, I just spent a wonderful afternoon with my A7r2 and WATE at Los Luceros, the oldest continuously operated Hacienda, since 1703, in the state of New Mexico. After the last two days of rain, we had perfect weather today.

    The Cottonwood trees in the bosque along the Rio Grande were featuring their peak fall colors, glorious yellow under navy blue skies and white snowy mountain tops of the Sangre de Cristos at the horizon, after the generous precipitation of the last two days.

    The A7r2 with IBIS and the WATE comprise a rather compact package that fits my hand superbly. After two months of ownership muscle memory has taken over in operating the camera. The mirrorless ILC performed magnificently in the fairly dark interior of historical buildings, among the shady Cottonwood trees, and under bright open skies in full sunshine. The perfect tool for the occasion. No problems, whatsoever, encountered. Great company, a most enjoyable afternoon, here in the "Land of Enchantment"!
    With best regards, K-H.
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