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Thread: Dear Mr. Sony,

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    Question Dear Mr. Sony,

    Where are the uncompressed RAW FW updates for the A7 cams?
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    I got mine..... and don't use it and see absolutely no reason to use it...... wish I could give it to your camera... along with the video capabilities as long as I am giving away things I'll never use

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Besides astro, I notice that ETTR + HDR would benefit from uncompressed RAW as well. Sharp, contrasty lens would provoke it quite readily. I would gladly take one for the A7S. Even doubling the size, it's still very manageable. I enjoy editing my A7S's files more than the A7RII's .
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Where are the uncompressed RAW FW updates for the A7 cams?
    Yes please. I shoot both M9 and A7 together lately. So sad when I move between the real RAWS and the Sony "raws".
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Don't laugh, but I'd like to see uncompressed raw for the RX100 m4 also... artifacts show up on my 9 shot ETTR bursts for HDR/super resolution images.

    Maybe Sony will sort out lossless compressed raw for the next season of cams.

    Cheers

    Brian
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    A7R Firmware Now!
    www.achdigital.com
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    No 'uncompressed raw file' option for the A7r ? am I missing something ?
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Your not missing anything... Only the a7rII has it not the a7r at this time.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    No 'uncompressed raw file' option for the A7r ? am I missing something ?
    Currently a7RII, a7SII. Soon a7II. No word from Sony on the a7, a7R or a7S.

    Joe
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Pardon me for being a contrarian, albeit an open-minded one.

    People like me need to apologize these days for being skeptics on matters of interest to the community, and this one has been a doozy for so many individuals, a real cause celebre. So what is the lived experience so far, in evidence based terms?

    I can't say I've scoured the web for actual evidence on the kind or extent of improvements to be gained in the kinds of images people shoot every day, there is simply too much verbiage to wade through, a real needle in a haystack task it would be. I have had a look however, without success.

    Is anyone aware or can members present 'reasonable' evidence for the superior image quality uncompressed RAWs give you over and above the files shot with uncompressed RAWs, for their typical images? Links to analyses would be good too, but the more real world the better - not so much equivalents to 80-90 inch prints, which is what 100% viewing gives you on 42Mp. Has anyone done this - shot the same composition with/without compression invoked?

    It was bad, real bad, right? That was the line of thinking, but all I saw was guys lifting six stops and one celebrated star image with a circle helpfully drawn around the 'flaw'. You needed the circle because the 'flaw' looked alarmingly like the rest of that image, and the line drawn was thicker than the 'flaw'.

    TBH, it is very surprising not to see this all over the photo web, given the tens of millions of words devoted to the issue this past year or two. cheers.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    phillip... this is strictly my opinion from a long time sony/minolta user (who really could care less what features other brands have)observing the lunacy on the internet surrounding the Sony lossy compressed RAW's. I never saw even one thread from the a900 days till the a7x arrived complaining at all about Sony RAW file artifacts... not one! Then the a7x cameras arrived which drew interest from users of other brands thinking about or actually buying Sony a7x camera's. This interest took two paths one of overexcitement about the system and one that just had to find something negative to hang their hat on so to validate their other brands. Some brainiacs on another forum found some isolated artifacts that were visible at the pixel level if you pushed the exposure 5 stops to see it or the astrophotographers may of found a weakness in the product that for their application the A7x bodies may not be the best tool for the job.

    Well once these issues were displayed and discussed on the net(no matter how outside design intent you had to go to see them) the absurd internet hysteria began and the masses from another brand had something to hang their hat on and hoop and hollar about. Oddly even before Sony announced that the a7rII and a7sII were getting uncompressed RAW DXOMark came out with their review of the a7rII which rated the a7rII and the top performing camera on the market at that time even with it's so called crippled cRAW files and B slapped their benchmark camera from another brand to number 2.... this quieted the other brand masses down really fast about how bad the a7rII was. Personally I take no stock in reviews and shoot what I like. I don't go over to the other forums and say their cameras are junk because they don't have EVF or still have a articulating mirror so I can hang my Sony hat on something. But they surely enjoyed the chaos they stirred up on a Sony forum crying for something they knew we did not have (or in fact really even need) coming into the product.

    Now my a7rII has uncompressed RAW files: whoopee!!!....... just another feature I will never use like 4k video or the number of bells and whistles one has shooting jpg.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Jeez, some people will defend anything. Like the batteries.

    As if everyone is whining about nothing.

    I don't know about artifacts, I know my A7 raws are 24mp, and my M9 raws are 36mp. I know I move my M9 raw exposure sliders all over the place with little new noise, and great effect. I know my A7 sliders are a joke. They do hardly anything, and much noise ensues.

    Maybe it's a Lightroom/Sony issue. Anyone who edits Canon, Nikon, or Leica Raws should be aware the adjustment sensitivity is radically different.

    It's not like we are saying: you must use uncompressed!!!. We are saying, we paid real money for these full frame bodies, and we would like RAWs at least on a similar level with Canikeia, as a choice.

    Sony of course is all about upgrades, and I'm sure would prefer we just buy the new ones.

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Jeez, some people will defend anything. Like the batteries.

    As if everyone is whining about nothing.
    Nobody is saying "nothing". They are saying "much ado about nothing". I've seen the files, the comparisons, and have yet to see a single image that was marginally affected by lossy RAW. The few where issues are evident can be fixed by -only- pushing the blacks three stops. Or... <gasp> properly exposing the image to begin with. Or... has anyone heard of bracketing?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post

    I don't know about artifacts, I know my A7 raws are 24mp, and my M9 raws are 36mp. I know I move my M9 raw exposure sliders all over the place with little new noise, and great effect. I know my A7 sliders are a joke. They do hardly anything, and much noise ensues.
    You clearly are doing something wrong or are not clearly explaining the issue. I don't see these massive noise issues you refer to, and the Sony files are as much or more adaptable than any other camera system I have owned.

    Are there examples of lossy RAW adding noise to an image? I haven't seen any. Most of the examples involve pushing a shadow 4-5 stops and then (on rare occasion) find a tiny loss in detail or mild color shifts.

    BTW, as far as dynamic range and exposure latitude, it seems DPR's recent full review of the A7rII is in 100% disagreement with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Maybe it's a Lightroom/Sony issue. Anyone who edits Canon, Nikon, or Leica Raws should be aware the adjustment sensitivity is radically different.
    I've edited Nikon files on LR/ACR since Photoshop 1.0. There is no difference between adjustment sensitivity between the two systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    It's not like we are saying: you must use uncompressed!!!. We are saying, we paid real money for these full frame bodies, and we would like RAWs at least on a similar level with Canikeia, as a choice.

    Sony of course is all about upgrades, and I'm sure would prefer we just buy the new ones.
    So again, we return to the "[insert manufacturer name] is a greedy conglomerate always looking to pick the pocket of blind chumps who are in denial about being fleeced."

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    So again, we return to the "[insert manufacturer name] is a greedy conglomerate always looking to pick the pocket of blind chumps who are in denial about being fleeced."
    Just out of interest, what's the latest firmware revision for the [Sony] RX1?

    I'm sure that some of the fan wars are around getting the brands to compete with each other. If every other brand provides lossless raw (ideally compressed), Sony should be made aware they are falling down on that aspect.

    What I'm not so sure about, is why try to play down these issues on the basis that "this doesn't affect me or any reasonable user".

    It's not about what you or I think is reasonable, it's what those fanatical about technicalities think, who drive the big brands to improve their products.

    On the other hand, I'd like to see much more noise and debate about ergonomics and ongoing customer support (thank you Fuji, Olympus for leading on this) in terms of firmware fixes and upgrades for free.

    Kind regards

    Brian

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    What I'm not so sure about, is why try to play down these issues on the basis that "this doesn't affect me or any reasonable user".

    It's not about what you or I think is reasonable, it's what those fanatical about technicalities think, who drive the big brands to improve their products.

    On the other hand, I'd like to see much more noise and debate about ergonomics and ongoing customer support (thank you Fuji, Olympus for leading on this) in terms of firmware fixes and upgrades for free.

    Kind regards

    Brian
    Agreed. I would ask Sony to stop pouring in R&D resources into fixing minor issues that affect very few users, and instead concentrate on issues that affect many users.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    I thought (or maybe hoped) we had left the selfish whining about "I have not seen an effect of lossless raw so why would anybody need it" far behind us. Everybody has a different appreciation about this issue, some people want/need it, others don't and that's cool.

    But why people find it a good use of their time to ridicule the other opinion because they don't (or do) see the issue is beyond my comprehension. The world is a lot larger then your own little place and the circumstances you meet.

    I just find it very much OK that Sony released the firmware update, like Vivek I hope they will continue to do that for older models. I will probably never need or use it, but the fact other people do is enough for me to appreciate it.
    Last edited by pegelli; 17th November 2015 at 23:42.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    So, others are "selfish whiners" because they happen to disagree with your viewpoint?

    I've searched high and low for definitive proof that this is an issue that "at all costs" must be solved. In fact, the number one reason I've come across is "because Canon, Nikon etc. offer it".

    NOWHERE have I said Sony should not be upgrading firmware to allow for uncompressed RAW. I like I have that option, though like most others, will probably never use it. I am particularly glad it's available, just to mute the rhetoric. But that DOESN'T mean some will find it quite beneficial.

    It's all about scarcity of resources, basic Economics 101. For every dollar spent on doing firmware upgrades to fix one "issue", another will be left short. How about things like improving battery life or researching ways to make the cameras smaller and/or more affordable? How about Sony devoting more resources to improvement of production lines so we don't have so many off-centered lenses? Does it not make sense to focus on issues that affect more than a tiny percentage of users?

    It's called opportunity cost. The cost of forgone opportunities.

    If that makes me a selfish whiner, so be it. I'm out of this discussion. Too much posturing.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Pegelli, One would think that if lossy compression RAW's were so bad that someone in the Sony/Minolta ranks would of complained about it on the web during the years after the a900 production ended. We heard complaints about EVF's and translucent mirrors robbing light but oddly not one stinking thread about lossy compressed Raw's..... till the popularity of the a7x series. Guess the Minolta/Sony crowd was just plain blind to it all those years and we needed to be enlightened by others from other brands to come out of our ignorant state concerning our RAW files.

    This "whining thing" goes both ways as I find it or anything to be a non-issue if you have to go outside the design intent of a product to see the issue they are whining about. Even then it has to be studied at a pixel level to even see what the complaint is......... As a retired manufacturing manager the whole basis of their complaints made me puke. A product has to meet the parameters of it's design intent not parameter's set beyond the limits of normal usage. It's like complaining the front bumper of a car dented with a 40mph impact when it is only designed to withstand a 5mph impact without damage. This complaint would be outside the parameters of design intent just like pushing the shadows 5 stops in order to see a artifact .. sometimes in some situations... Really? I saw their complaints as a "witch hunt" and essentially whining about nothing except those who do star trail photography who might of had a real issue in their genre. To them I say just maybe these are not the best tools for your needs even with uncompressed files. Not any tool does everything exceptionally, they all have their strengths and weaknesses including Sony.

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Posturing aside, I freely admit to not understanding why Sony would have led the industry with their FF 36 meg A7R (which I own), then only allowed a "Lossy RAW" output? Is the term "Lossy" actually meaningless (as is being discussed here)? If it is the same output as RAW, why is it called "Lossy"? Lossy implies losing data in an effort to compress ... which begs the question as to what data was tossed out and how does that effect the working data of a file we are processing?

    I think it is probably a matter of semantics. Who wanted to hear the big bad 36 meg A7R associated with "Lossy"?

    Kinda like a 500HP race car that delivers 375HP to the wheels on a dyno, where another 500HP race car delivers 425HP.

    Oh, I doubt the effort to re-work firmware took all that much effort in the scheme of things. Yes, sorting out the interface wouldn't be all that bad, but Sony only does stuff if it impacts their bottom line ... which won't happen until we stop apologizing for them and buying their products featuring such giant warts ... which has nothing to do with other makers like Canikon (neither of which I own or use).

    Oh well ...

    - Marc
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Good point Marc! Before all this it was called on message boards RAW files. This may of been a misnomer as it was designated as cRAW since the a900. It was during the course of the brainiac's discovery that we started to hear lossless and lossy compression. To me if you compress a file in anyway you are going to lose some data. Just the nature of compression. Does it make a noticible difference in the usability of the file? I leave that to the engineers because they get paid for this I just use the tool to make money.

    I buy Sony because it works for me and I am heavily vested in Minolta/Sony gear. I am too old to change and honestly I wouldn't want to anyway. I don't let Sony or for that matter any company or person off the hook for anything they do. It is my nature to put my perspectives on any situation on the table. My issue with this whole Raw discussion was Sony uses the Raw they do as a designed in file type. The discussions used terms like defective product (or giant wart .. Really??? I have seen your work over the years if the RAW file was really a giant wart to your final output or customers you would of never used the gear.. Obviously it had no detrimental effects to your workflow or outputs quality ) or crippled camera when they had to go to absurd lengths and far outside the realm of what a person who calls themselves a photographer would normally ever have to do to even see it at a pixel level.

    (As a old manufacturing warhorse I viewed this whole hysteria as ridiculous just like when they demanded the CEO of GM to resign because he focused the companies production on SUV's, Trucks, and crossover vehicle and not green vehicles. Hey government look around on the road what do you see more of? Then as a business what would you make for sale? We all know what cause the worlds auto industries to have issues back in 2007 and it wasn't because they were not making enough green vehicles because even Prious sales were down 13% at that time. It is the same hysteria and misinformation that the media locked onto then that the BS on the Sony boards about RAW files looked like to me... A whole lot of nothing about nothing that turned into something potentially damaging for the future of Sony that whether relevant or not had to be resolved before they went forward)

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    I think that we should stop beating dead horses. Whether the uncompressed raws are a huge improvement or not :

    1) wasn't what the original poster was after. He was just asking Sony to make that feature available for older bodies as well;

    2) even if it was, there is no point discussing the subject without pictures to compare compressed raws to uncompressed ones.

    We should give this a rest before people get angry.. Oops it seems already to be the case ...
    Last edited by Annna T; 18th November 2015 at 08:09.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Thank you Annna!
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Anna I am no where near angry or even slightly ticked off but your point is well taken as to the objective of this thread so I will stop... I hope no one else was angry either and were just putting their perspectives on the table as well.
    Last edited by Jim DE; 18th November 2015 at 12:34.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Meh, seems a tempest in a tea-pot.

    I switched from Nikon to Sony with the A900 because the Sony used the same 24 meg sensor as my Nikon, but their secret sauce made getting from camera to wedding client half as easy in half the time. (The Zeiss lenses didn't hurt either). So, if those were cRAW I certainly didn't know it, and in retrospect I sure didn't care.

    However, I DO think when Sony moved to 36 meg FF and now a 43 meg sensor, it may bring out more finicky photographers with different applications in mind that are buying for the ultimate IQ they can squeeze out of their camera. Who am I to argue with that?

    - Marc

    Dear Mr. Sony, please fix the interface of your cameras ... the A900 wasn't a terrible start ... but these A series cameras are a mind boggling mess. Thanks.

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    So, others are "selfish whiners" because they happen to disagree with your viewpoint?
    'Nope, that's not what I said and also I'm not disagreeing with your viewpoint that the improvements are marginal. You're also agreeing with me that you are happy the upgrade was made. So what's the big deal, it's all water under the bridge and not the topic of this thread.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    (As a old manufacturing warhorse I viewed this whole hysteria as ridiculous just like when they demanded the CEO of GM to resign because he focused the companies production on SUV's, Trucks, and crossover vehicle and not green vehicles. Hey government look around on the road what do you see more of? Then as a business what would you make for sale? We all know what cause the worlds auto industries to have issues back in 2007 and it wasn't because they were not making enough green vehicles because even Prious sales were down 13% at that time. It is the same hysteria and misinformation that the media locked onto then that the BS on the Sony boards about RAW files looked like to me... A whole lot of nothing about nothing that turned into something potentially damaging for the future of Sony that whether relevant or not had to be resolved before they went forward)
    Since you have chosen to take us off-topic here, can I just say that the CEO of GM should have been asked to resign because he had put the company into bankruptcy. If you won't believe that, then you have to explain how Ford was able to weather the recession without a bailout. They operate in the same markets, negotiate with the same unions, face the same economic conditions. One company had competent management, the other did not.

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I thought (or maybe hoped) we had left the selfish whining about "I have not seen an effect of lossless raw so why would anybody need it" far behind us. Everybody has a different appreciation about this issue, some people want/need it, others don't and that's cool.

    But why people find it a good use of their time to ridicule the other opinion because they don't (or do) see the issue is beyond my comprehension. The world is a lot larger then your own little place and the circumstances you meet.

    I just find it very much OK that Sony released the firmware update, like Vivek I hope they will continue to do that for older models. I will probably never need or use it, but the fact other people do is enough for me to appreciate it.
    What a pleasant forum with decent human being posters. This is my first post and just can't take DPR anymore. There is some sort of entitlement going on with adapted lens users and it's hard to stomach. Anyway, I'm glad I came here to look and participate. I would like a firmware update on my A7r but doubt it will come since Sony would much rather sell the MkII cameras. You never know though and the original A7 cameras are still viable with excellent sensors and still listed as current on Sony's site. I have played with uncompressed raw on my A7rii but don't believe it's making much of a difference. There are a few I trust that have shown the difference at 300% magnification but others that are clearly manipulating images to prove their point.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by PCinAZ View Post
    What a pleasant forum with decent human being posters. This is my first post and just can't take DPR anymore. There is some sort of entitlement going on with adapted lens users and it's hard to stomach. Anyway, I'm glad I came here to look and participate.

    Wait till you piss me off ese.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Very funny Lucille, but first let's welcome the new member to this forum! Welcome!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
    Wait till you piss me off ese.
    Ha. Thanks for the warning.

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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by PCinAZ View Post
    What a pleasant forum with decent human being posters.
    Thanks and welcome, and the post you quoted wasn't even my most friendly post
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    If no FW updates come, I will be quite enthusiastic about the rumored new Nikon mirrorless platform (I already am).

    Change will not be very painful as thankfully Sony made it easy with few useful/reliable lenses and accs and I have no EOS lenses to use.
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If no FW updates come, I will be quite enthusiastic about the rumored new Nikon mirrorless platform (I already am).

    Change will not be very painful as thankfully Sony made it easy with few useful/reliable lenses and accs and I have no EOS lenses to use.
    The giants are stirring.......

    Here is what I want it to look like:


    image by cameraquest
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    The giants are stirring.......

    Here is what I want it to look like:


    image by cameraquest
    Now that is a hood (lightweight and tiny) that I could bring myself to paying 140 Euros.

  35. #35
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    Despite the plastic mounts, The A7r and the A7 still could benefit from a FW upgrade.

  36. #36
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    Re: Dear Mr. Sony,

    I found this (sign it): https://www.change.org/p/sony-firmwa...edium=copylink

    Is there one for A7,7r 7s?

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