Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 46 of 46

Thread: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Dear Folks here is a german article by Traumflieger (with image samples comparing an EM5 II, Canon 5Dsr and a Sony A7r

    the sensorshifted MFT chip really shines on 40 Mpix, can anybody imagine what would happen if the A7RII would do the same stuff - 80 to 100 Mpix in brilliant quality ?
    I would even pay for an App, I would even pay substantially for such an app - e.g. 100 € or even 200 € ?

    Sony do you listen: this should be easy. Please do it !

    High Resolution: Vergleich Olympus EM5 II vs. EOS 5Ds / Sony A7R - Traumflieger.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de
    Thanks 3 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    101
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Yes Yes!!!
    Sony, it would be great to have!

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,988
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Really wonder if the key to sensor shift is to be found in firmware alone.
    I recall it could not be done for the EM1 ...
    Bart ...
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Really wonder if the key to sensor shift is to be found in firmware alone.
    I recall it could not be done for the EM1 ...
    Even where they can (the A7 series) do an update (uncompressed RAW) nothing happened.

    Unless dprevs take up the issue they will not listen (as claimed by a Sony prod manager). They are what they are.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Even where they can (the A7 series) do an update (uncompressed RAW) nothing happened.

    Unless dprevs take up the issue they will not listen (as claimed by a Sony prod manager). They are what they are.
    i can guarantee you this is not true they are very active in collecting feedback, something i never experienced with canon for example.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    i can guarantee you this is not true they are very active in collecting feedback, something i never experienced with canon for example.
    The problem seems to be, that they apply that feedback in developing the next model of camera - rather than fixing (or upgrading) things for existing users.

    Unfortunately, this fits in with the general perception I have of Sony in terms of customer support. I guess this follows naturally from a 'consumer' brand.

    It's good for one's sanity to bear this in mind when buying Sony products - make sure that you want exactly what you're buying.

    Kind regards

    Brian

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    The problem seems to be, that they apply that feedback in developing the next model of camera - rather than fixing (or upgrading) things for existing users.

    Unfortunately, this fits in with the general perception I have of Sony in terms of customer support. I guess this follows naturally from a 'consumer' brand.

    It's good for one's sanity to bear this in mind when buying Sony products - make sure that you want exactly what you're buying.

    Kind regards

    Brian
    ...so when did canon improve an old model with firmware the last time ? i have bought 8 1d and 5d series cameras in the last 10 years and i´m not aware of 1 countable improvement beside some minor fixes. and when it comes to feedback they give a **** about your opinion when you don´t devoutly cheer them.....

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    324
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    The problem seems to be, that they apply that feedback in developing the next model of camera - rather than fixing (or upgrading) things for existing users.

    Unfortunately, this fits in with the general perception I have of Sony in terms of customer support. I guess this follows naturally from a 'consumer' brand.

    It's good for one's sanity to bear this in mind when buying Sony products - make sure that you want exactly what you're buying.

    Kind regards

    Brian
    The latest round of Sony firmware updates for the A7r2 and A72 just blow this perception out of the water.

    I don't ever recall getting anything close to what Sony has done with firmware updates from any of my Nikon gear. Nikon just likes to come out with a whole new body, e.g. 810, 610, with small but important upgrades to fix their old bodies.

    So, not only do Sony's latest upgrades push forward existing models, when Sony does release a new body it is often a big upgrade.

    I'll take Sony's practice over Nikon's any day.

    Current Sony shooter. Former Nikon D4, D800 owner.

    But, to stay on topic - I expect there are patent issues preventing Sony from implementing sensor shift multi shot.

    But, I would LOVE it if they can add it to my A7r2. Seriously, who cares about hard drive space or file sizes? I need the option of more of everything.

    -Bill
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #9
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    i can guarantee you this is not true they are very active in collecting feedback, something i never experienced with canon for example.
    I hope you are correct. In that event, I have a list ...

    In addition to the FW updates for the original A7 series, FW updates for RX1 and R and a new RX1s with a built EVF and Tilt LCD and high ISO capacity in a lower MP count sensor( hope this will improve battery life). thank you very much!

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    It seems that the sensor movement required to implement IBIS means that the firmware has the ability to control sensor movement with sufficient precision to make the Sensorshift Multishot function work.

    This capability would be extremely useful on both my A7RII and A7II. Even if there were some restrictions.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Swiss Alps
    Posts
    1,444
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    The interest of Olympus (with its small MFT sensors) to find a workaround in order to get more resolution is evident.

    However, I wonder about the need to implement such a technique on bodies already having high resolution. If one prints for billboard size, then people have to step back in order to encompass the full picture. So I strive to understand that need for more than 40-50 MB resolution.

    And anyway, for the few times that is needed, one can always stitch. It has become easier than ever. I can imagine a huge panorama in a long hallway, where people going by could look at all the details.. But we can already achieve that very easily nowadays. I tried it with a 90mm TSE lens the other day : three rows of seven pictures for a 180 degrees view : one with rise, one without movement and one with fall. Given the level gauge available on the LCD, I could do it with a table tripod setup on the windowsill; I just used a great deal of overlap to compensate the lack of a pano head. It was merged to panorama in LR6 without any flaw. But the resulting dng image weight 1.2 GB. It could be printed to 3.5 meters long. It is amazing how many little details and slices of life one can see in such a picture, but what is the point ? I just did it because I could. To make that thing even more absurd, here is the web version :

    Sion and the Rhône Valley by rrr_hhh, sur Flickr
    Last edited by Annna T; 2nd December 2015 at 11:04.
    Likes 8 Member(s) liked this post

  12. #12
    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    743
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    I tend to think that it is an interesting feature on paper, but in practice the current iteration in Olympus cameras has limited or narrow applications. For outdoor use, almost any wind creates movement between frames resulting in very difficult-to-correct image errors in those areas. When I look back at my photos, there are very few where I think I would be able to apply it. However there is certainly a niche of photographers shooting inanimate objects in a studio who would love this technology.

    I certainly think we'll see more of this type of technology to improve image quality in the future though. There will be increases to sensor readout speeds and camera CPU power which will make it possible to stack multiple frames for resolution/noise/color improvements. This type of thing is possible on a desktop now, so it is only a matter of time until it fits into your camera. They just have to figure out ways to overcome the limitations like hand-shake and movement within the shot. Probably a combination of faster hardware and smarter algorithms will eventually be able to compensate these problems. I imagine smartphones are probably where we'll see this type of thing first. Their small sensors can do full sensor readout very quickly and have ample processing power compared to the average camera.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Well - why do you think Sinar and Hasselblad are selling multishot backs if nobody needs them ?

    These are mainly used for extremely detailed productshots, reprography of e.g. cultural heritage, paintings and plans.

    Architecture Photography for the travelling photographer - remember stitching when not doing a flat stitch will require nodal point operation, usable foreground and many more nuisances.
    A Sony A7RII can shoot 5 images a second, so for a 4shot that´s less than a second. a 16 Shot could happen in a bit more than 3 seconds !
    Thats also definitely faster than stitching avoiding ghosting of moving subjects (a bit) better than doing it manually (which also holds a source of human failures forgetting a shot etc.pp.)

    Pushing such a body into this range of gear would blow the market into a whole new ocean of opportunity.
    Sure Blad and Sinar won´t like this, but this is what is going to happe anyway. So I´d preferre sooner, than later.

    In short - this would be a killer feature - probably Sony will do it in an Alpha 9R Pro Body, maybe together with USB3 internal and external data bus and a bigger battery ? :-)

    Listen to me Sony - here you got the lawn and it needs mowing badly.
    Give us a mower !
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Well - why do you think Sinar and Hasselblad are selling multishot backs if nobody needs them ?

    !
    I can see this being useful in an A7S II. I will buy one if it comes with that.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    The comments about art and architecture are the two areas where I would find this capability immediately beneficial. A combination of higher resolution for a total image and also the ability to crop into details when necessary. i.e. being able to crop to a small portion of an image of a painting to confirm the condition of the paint and canvas to document its condition prior to shipment when there is apparent damage following the shipment.

    With architecture its an ability to capture the finest detail in an image, then being able to hold the detail when preparing the image for final use.

    Also, documenting collectables, including automobiles. It would be nice to deliver an image to a client that could be sent to a potential buyer where they can see the entire vehicle but also zoom in to see if there are scratches on the chrome or paint.

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Well - why do you think Sinar and Hasselblad are selling multishot backs if nobody needs them ?

    These are mainly used for extremely detailed productshots, reprography of e.g. cultural heritage, paintings and plans.

    Architecture Photography for the travelling photographer - remember stitching when not doing a flat stitch will require nodal point operation, usable foreground and many more nuisances.
    A Sony A7RII can shoot 5 images a second, so for a 4shot that´s less than a second. a 16 Shot could happen in a bit more than 3 seconds !
    Thats also definitely faster than stitching avoiding ghosting of moving subjects (a bit) better than doing it manually (which also holds a source of human failures forgetting a shot etc.pp.)

    Pushing such a body into this range of gear would blow the market into a whole new ocean of opportunity.
    Sure Blad and Sinar won´t like this, but this is what is going to happe anyway. So I´d preferre sooner, than later.

    In short - this would be a killer feature - probably Sony will do it in an Alpha 9R Pro Body, maybe together with USB3 internal and external data bus and a bigger battery ? :-)

    Listen to me Sony - here you got the lawn and it needs mowing badly.
    Give us a mower !
    Just to be clear, existing four shot MFD micro step backs do not increase resolution. A Hasselblad 50 meg Multi-Shot back is 50 meg in single shot mode, and 50 meg in four shot mode. The difference is that color separation and moiré suppression is much better with the four micro-step backs that capture each distinct color verses interpolation. This color fidelity also increases the perception of detail.

    Older MS backs like those from Imacon and Sinar also offered 8 shot and 16 shot modes which did increase resolution at a time when 16 and 22meg was the highest resolution single shot capability, and there was need for more resolution in certain commercial or institutional situations. Museums particularly needed the accurate color rendering of these backs.

    I worked with a Hasselblad 39 meg 4 shot MS back for years, which produced incredible files, matching my Hasselblad H4D/60 in perceptual detail and easily exceeding it in color fidelity. A lot of work I was doing at the time required the color acuity of a MS back.

    The current Hasselblad H5D/200 and H5D/200c produces a 50 meg single shot, 50 meg four shot, and a 200 meg six shot file (up to a 400 meg RAW or 600 meg Tiff file!)

    MS Backs (as it now works), require hardware and software working in tandem during each shot to capture separate frames ... then proprietary software combines them into a single file, so it is strictly a tethered operation. Generally, it requires a locked down tripod, static subject, and consistent lighting (when working with strobes a user selected delay between each individual shot can be set to allow the strobes to fully recycle). When there are static subjects and those with movement, some photographers would do a single shot then combine it with a multi-shot in post (for example, an interior architectural shot with wind movement outside the windows).

    Whether the whole operation can be contained in a camera body including the data combination would be the question. Sony does something similar with rapid bracketing and combining but as far as I know that is strictly a jpeg capture. I suppose four shots could be taken individually and then combined later. The other question would be one of whether that sort of single pixel level precision in movement would be possible in such a small body.

    - Marc
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  17. #17
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Using a Multishot Sensorshift on a smaller format like 24x36mm would immediately bring another advantage:
    Think about watches or jewelry ? A smaller format can better capture depth of field and using this with a 6 shot, 8 shot, or even 16 shot can achieve an image quality beyond MF.
    About tethered: these smaller cameras are MUCH faster than MF backs, the internal buffers can take a full series of shots before they have to be written. Again- superior to MF.

    And finally: Pricetag. How much is the H5D/200 now - 35000 $ ? A factor of 10x ?

    If that is not an argument, what else ?

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  18. #18
    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Swiss Alps
    Posts
    1,444
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Using multishots for color fidelity makes more sense IMO. The Olympus E-M5II for instance use four shots for color fidelity avoiding interpolation and then move the sensor by an half pixel both vertically and horizontally, before shooting a second series of four shots. Look at DPreview comparison tool : in highres mode the E-M5II shows absolutely no moire compared to the D810 or the A7r2.

    Olympus reps told in interviews that they are working on that feature, with the goal of allowing handheld shooting up to as fast as 1/60 sec. Doesn't mean that they will be able to reach their goal, but interesting to know where their research department is heading.

    I think that view cameras have a future if they concentrate on small and light systems able to adapt bodies like the A7r/r2 on the back standard. Arcaswiss has an interesting offer for that. Alas my Arca 6x9 Classic has no geared controls so it isn't worth mounting such a back standard on it. Plus the lenses I have are way too big to allow enough movements, would be too long for the 35mm sensors and I have doubts concerning their performance. I'm not even sure I could mount it on my system.

  19. #19
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    I think a focus stacking app like Olympus for macro is more appealing if the Sony 90 G is up to scratch.

  20. #20
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Using a Multishot Sensorshift on a smaller format like 24x36mm would immediately bring another advantage:
    Think about watches or jewelry ? A smaller format can better capture depth of field and using this with a 6 shot, 8 shot, or even 16 shot can achieve an image quality beyond MF.
    About tethered: these smaller cameras are MUCH faster than MF backs, the internal buffers can take a full series of shots before they have to be written. Again- superior to MF.

    And finally: Pricetag. How much is the H5D/200 now - 35000 $ ? A factor of 10x ?

    If that is not an argument, what else ?

    Regards
    Stefan
    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a FF 135 format Multi-Shot. I've experienced the benefits of M/S, and to have it in a smaller format would be great.

    I do tend to agree with Vivek that Focus Stacking would be a more logical solution to control DOF, regardless of format.

    Not sure internal "buffer speed" is the key issue with Multi-Shot. Generally (not always), these backs are used in tandem with studio lighting to assure absolute consistency shot-to-shot. When shooting smaller objects using smaller apertures for DOF, a LOT of light is required ... so the timing aspect is more about full recycle speed than how fast the separate images are captured. In many cases the time between each separate shot has to be adjusted longer to accommodate the lights. The MF Multi-Shot backs allow this adjustment to be controlled.

    The math doesn't seem to support the notion of a 6, 8, or especially a 16 shot 35mm Multi-Shot camera. The A7R-II does 5 FPS Bursts, so that'd be around 1/4 second per shot ... so any movement in the scene would be recorded and out of whack ... plus, can the sensor be moved that fast? That shows the challenge that Olympus is facing to even get to 1/60 shutter for 4 shot hand-held stuff as mentioned by Annna T.

    IMO, the other short-coming of 135 format work of this type is the lack of leaf shutter lenses in multiple focal lengths. Again lighting control is of paramount importance for much work involving Multi-Shot applications, especially involving color fidelity. Higher sync speeds allow the photographer to kill any trace of ambient ... cameras like the A7R/A7R-II are currently stuck at 1/160, and HSS is generally not an option because of the light levels and consistency necessary for this sort of work.

    As it stands now, Multi-Shot is a pretty special application with color acuity the main goal. The 39 meg M/S back I used was 4 shot so there was no gain in resolution, but at 39 meg, almost 645 format, resolution wasn't the issue, clarity of color separation was. BTW, it cost nowhere what the H5D/200 does ... which is a VERY specialized tool.

    It'll be interesting whether MS gains traction in smaller formats ... personally, I'd love the option, but would much prefer that companies like Sony tidy up their interface before venturing off into less used features.

    - Marc

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    munich, bavaria, germany
    Posts
    20
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I would even pay for an App, I would even pay substantially for such an app - e.g. 100 € or even 200 € ?
    Sony do you listen: this should be easy. Please do it !
    +1, great idea!

    After the addition of uncompressed RAW, we might be out of free wishes for the A7II-Series (with or without S/R), but Sony... please, pretty please let us pay for it and make some good money out of cameras you have already sold ;-)
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  22. #22
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Hi Marc

    I have no idea where you got your buffer numbers from - but here are the official data from the Sony tech specs (and I have no doubt until now they are correct)

    Speed (approx., max.)*2 Continuous shooting Hi: Max. 5fps, Continuous shooting Lo: Max. 2.5fps
    No. of recordable frames*2 = Buffer (approx.) Continuous shooting Hi: 24 frames (JPEG Extra Fine L), 30 frames (JPEG Fine L), 37 frames (JPEG Standard L), 23 frames (RAW), 22 frames (RAW & JPEG), 9 frames (RAW [Uncompressed]), 9 frames (RAW [Uncompressed] & JPEG)


    Means even a 16 shot Raw (11+7) would be finished in 3,2 sec. and go to the buffer completely.
    14 Bit mode will be sufficient for 8 shots.

    Sony Global - Digital Imaging – ILCE-7RM2

    for closeup lighting like Watches etc, there are now daylight LEDs with highpower output, smaller, cooler and cheaper than the old flash solutions.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICHBINSpunktDE View Post
    t Sony... please, pretty please let us pay for it and make some good money out of cameras you have already sold ;-)
    You are begging Sony to allow you to pay?

  24. #24
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Hi Vivek

    with a proper implementation firmware and App, even supported by Play memories remote, I´d be more than happy to pay for such an App. definitely 100 €, maybe even 200 €.

    Why not ?

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Hi Stefan,


    If it comes with a money back guarantee (30 day trail period) I will pay 1 Euro. If Sony get rid of the playstation app site add another 199.

    You are treating them way too seriously, I think. Even they aren't otherwise they will not have an app site that is only available for a few regions and that requires giving away a lot of your data (sony are not good at protecting their own data- it is very well known) in order buy them.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Marc

    I have no idea where you got your buffer numbers from - but here are the official data from the Sony tech specs (and I have no doubt until now they are correct)

    Speed (approx., max.)*2 Continuous shooting Hi: Max. 5fps, Continuous shooting Lo: Max. 2.5fps
    No. of recordable frames*2 = Buffer (approx.) Continuous shooting Hi: 24 frames (JPEG Extra Fine L), 30 frames (JPEG Fine L), 37 frames (JPEG Standard L), 23 frames (RAW), 22 frames (RAW & JPEG), 9 frames (RAW [Uncompressed]), 9 frames (RAW [Uncompressed] & JPEG)


    Means even a 16 shot Raw (11+7) would be finished in 3,2 sec. and go to the buffer completely.
    14 Bit mode will be sufficient for 8 shots.

    Sony Global - Digital Imaging – ILCE-7RM2

    for closeup lighting like Watches etc, there are now daylight LEDs with highpower output, smaller, cooler and cheaper than the old flash solutions.
    Read my post again Stephan, I never mentioned buffer limits, only the 5 FPS of the Sony in reference to timing the lighting most studios currently use. These MS cameras have to be locked down on a solid surface while precisely shifting the sensor at the pixel level ... which isn't the same as IBIS that stabilizes the sensor for hand-held work.

    IF there are continuous cold lights that can use the range of modifiers needed for this sort of work and supply the level of light necessary to 1) overcome any residual ambient, 2) work with modifiers while shooting stopped down please provide a link, I'd like to check them out.

    As I said, if and when such purely speculative technology may arrive, and the arguments in favor of that speculative technology become reality, that would be great ... in the meantime, it'd be nice if Sony fixed their current cameras without requiring us to buy a new one, and updated their interface from a video game mentality to a photography centric one.

    - Marc

  27. #27
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Saffron Walden, UK
    Posts
    1,983
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    58

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Would be a nice idea. Flash works with multishot medium format, but that's because those cameras, like the H5D200MS, are specifically designed with multishot in mind and fire the flash for each shift. Absolute rigidity is essential, or you get crazy artefacts.

    I don't think its worth the hassle for Sony even if it could be implemented. The number of potential customers would be small - but I'd be one of them if they ever did it!
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

  28. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Dun Laoghaire, Ireland
    Posts
    125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Dear Folks here is a german article by Traumflieger (with image samples comparing an EM5 II, Canon 5Dsr and a Sony A7r

    the sensorshifted MFT chip really shines on 40 Mpix, can anybody imagine what would happen if the A7RII would do the same stuff - 80 to 100 Mpix in brilliant quality ?
    I would even pay for an App, I would even pay substantially for such an app - e.g. 100 € or even 200 € ?

    Sony do you listen: this should be easy. Please do it !

    High Resolution: Vergleich Olympus EM5 II vs. EOS 5Ds / Sony A7R - Traumflieger.de
    A Big +
    www.endacavanagh.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  29. #29
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    23
    Post Thanks / Like

    Changing topic: PhotoAcute?

    Changing topics slightly, has anyone used the http://www.photoacute.com/ software? You're supposed to shoot multiple frames of the same image, and then it tries to calculate an improved resolution. Six shots seems to be the tipping point between needing too many frames and not seeing enough of an improvement, if I recall correctly.

    I wonder whether the natural microscopic differences in position of the camera over six shots wouldn't give you something like a multishot sensor -- after all, when we're talking about moving a sensor one half of a pixel and each pixel is in the micron range to begin with, I'm suspicious that most people's camera/head/tripod/technique is not good enough to keep alignments that precise.

    Thoughts?

    (But yes, if Sony introduces multishot capability, either for cleaner color resolution or for an overall resolution bump, I'd want to check it out. Wouldn't it be like having a non-bayer sensor?)

  30. #30
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    there is a pretty good explanation of superresolution on this Petapixel article.

    http://petapixel.com/2015/02/21/a-pr...ith-photoshop/

    Photoacute works pretty much the same with some additional features like HDR, bracketing usage and noise control settings.

    But be prepared- for larger images , it takes some real CPUs and time.

    And I still think , the efficiency of a controlled bayer repetiton for getting true colors per pixel would be the more interesting approach.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  31. #31
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    I still use PhotoAcute - such a shame the developers have deserted it, since I can't find a decent replacement!

    Cheers

    Brian

  32. #32
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I still use PhotoAcute - such a shame the developers have deserted it, since I can't find a decent replacement!

    Cheers

    Brian
    Even more so, a finished App (Android. iOS or win10) flanked by a firmware supporting this + a desktop application matching the files with a real CPU (which will be needed- for sure)
    would be a real added value for the system. and I would easily pay up to 200 € for this (maybe more if the feature set would be right).

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  33. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    23
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    ...And I still think , the efficiency of a controlled bayer repetiton for getting true colors per pixel would be the more interesting approach.
    Stefan, I agree with you in concept or theory. I still wonder how well most people, in the real world, are able to make sure that the positioning of their camera is precise to within ~2.25 microns (1/2 pixel of an a7r2). Indoors, in the studio, I'm willing to consider. But I suspect most people aren't that careful with their equipment and technique.

    I'd sure like to try it, though!

  34. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    munich, bavaria, germany
    Posts
    20
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    I've placed the suggestion @ Sony Support, they told me they'll forward it to the appropriate department (whatever that is worth). I'm fully aware that my mail alone won't trigger a development like this, but if more of you guys do as i did... maybe, the Sony guys would think about showing Canons 50MP-5DSR their backside once more
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #35
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    That´s good to hear !
    I have contact to some of the Sony Ambassadors and already asked them to forward this.
    Let´s see what happens.

    Whereas I have a feeling...... this will be a feature of an Alpha 9R. Bigger body, bigger battery, USB3 bus and external, 4,4k Finder, bigger buffer
    and some additional custom buttons ?

    Dear Santa, I´ll be a nice boy - I promise ! :-)
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  36. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    munich, bavaria, germany
    Posts
    20
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    In the sony community, there's a section which is called "join the inspiration". You can post ideas there, and other people can "me too" them. At least I can say that I tried: click here
    My hopes for this way are not too high, but it's the constant dripping that wears away the stone

    If some of you guys already are registered or willing to register, you might "me too" it ;-)
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  37. #37
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Thanks a Lot !
    Let´s hope they read it !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Marin County, CA
    Posts
    593
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Fred Miranda has made several posts regarding the Sony app. called "Smooth Reflections". It takes a series of exposures (up to 256!) and combines them into one RAW file. The purpose here is to smooth water reflections and clouds, the way we would do it using a long exposure and heavy ND filters. Apparently, it works astonishingly well and replaces the need for ND filters and their color casts.

    A very nice side effect is this also increases resolution, similar to using a very low ISO. IIRC, he said it was similar to ISOs in the single digits.

    Not quite the same as Sensorshift, but has a similar effect. Not bad for a $5 add on.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  39. #39
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Yes, I must give this 'smooth reflections' a try, although it will need a solid tripod and no subject movement (other than water if present) to give best results.

    I find PhotoAcute far more practical, given the excellent ability to deal with moving subject matter such that I can shoot multiple frames hand held.

    Cheers

    Brian

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Marin County, CA
    Posts
    593
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    The "no subject movement" is a critical part of long exposures using ND filters as well.

    PhotoAcute is intriguing, but they are very slow in supporting the newer Sony cameras, it costs $149 and requires extensive post processing.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Fred Miranda has made several posts regarding the Sony app. called "Smooth Reflections". It takes a series of exposures (up to 256!) and combines them into one RAW file. The purpose here is to smooth water reflections and clouds, the way we would do it using a long exposure and heavy ND filters. Apparently, it works astonishingly well and replaces the need for ND filters and their color casts.

    A very nice side effect is this also increases resolution, similar to using a very low ISO. IIRC, he said it was similar to ISOs in the single digits.

    Not quite the same as Sensorshift, but has a similar effect. Not bad for a $5 add on.
    I have to try this ! Thanks for the hint .

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  42. #42
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    munich, bavaria, germany
    Posts
    20
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    So, after Olympus, Pentax did it on their K-1, too. At least the 4-shot version to cancel out bayer filter.
    For static images, you basically have a Full Frame, 36 MPix Foveon-like and nearly noise free image... nice move, Ricoh!
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  43. #43
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ICHBINSpunktDE View Post
    So, after Olympus, Pentax did it on their K-1, too. At least the 4-shot version to cancel out bayer filter.
    For static images, you basically have a Full Frame, 36 MPix Foveon-like and nearly noise free image... nice move, Ricoh!

    I am very sure we will see an "A9R" with this too. It is just logical and doesn´t take much effort, is cost efficient, limits filesizes for moving subjects and allows large stuff when static images are shot.

    Actually according to the terminology of Hasselblad and Sinar the K1 is a 144Mpix camera, around half of the size and weight of a Phase XF with lens and 100 Mpix, faster , cheaper (1799 $) and with better features.... and much more available and affordable lenses (all K mounts on the Planet). And nobody could say why there shall be only 4 shots.
    8/16/32 anyone ? Just a software update.

    Bitter for MF, but to be expected.

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  44. #44
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    Finally there are the first samples of the new K1 by Pentax -one with 4 shot. (sample 5 see link)
    Pentax uses the additional file info of the four shots not for a bigger image but for full 4 color , non interpolated data.

    http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/products/k-1/ex/

    Amazing.

    Can you imagine what would happen with a 4,8,16 shot with the A7R2 chip and even larger resolutions ?

    I want it and I am sure I will get it.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  45. #45
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    OK - if you are as curious as I am, do the following:
    download the files and scale them up 200%, then do an unsharp mask with default settings (Photoshop CC2015) 100%/rad.1/3.
    then go to 100 % view and scroll around the image.
    the resolution is visibly at least double or as the numbers say 14720x9824pix. the file is 413,7 Mbyte or 137,9 Mpix..........
    And that quality on the sample is from a compressed JPG with under 20 Mpix. Can you imagine what the image from the Rawfile will look like ?

    Now the genius in doing it the way Pentax did this, is the filesize is not significantly bigger than a normal oneshot image. Storage, speed and handling are thus the same as oneshot. But if needed you can scale this beyond imagination.....


    COOOOOOOOOOOOOL !
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bildschirmfoto 2016-03-05 um 23.17.46.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	21.3 KB 
ID:	116987  
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  46. #46
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Dear Sony: I want Sensorshift Mulitshot - FW Upgradeable or as an app ?

    OMG - here is another cutout - fabric also at 100 %
    ..... and that was not shot with an Otus....... just a Zoom
    HD PENTAX-D FA 28-105mmF3.5-5.6ED DC WR
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bildschirmfoto 2016-03-05 um 23.36.51.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	19.4 KB 
ID:	116988  
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •