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Thread: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

  1. #101
    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by SamSS View Post
    Nah! It's good to have criticism and POV from a different perspective. You're alright.
    Agree, it's fun to read all the different perspectives. No harm done if I (or someone else) doesn't agree with them. Would be pretty boring if we all thought the same.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    So they've made a portrait lens as large and heavy as a medium format lens of similar caliber. Does it bother me? Not one bit, but it has given me yet another reason not to consider the A7. 85mm is one of my favourite focal lengths, and the Nikkor suddenly looks almost pocketable
    Are you talking about the Seiss designed, Cosina made Otus? It is just a manual focus lens, better on a mirrorless cam but made for DSLRs for reasons that only Cosina know!

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    A few responses to previous posts without parsing words, whinning or grousing about the whiners ...

    I'll say again ... do NOT dismiss an A99 replacement. Wouldn't surprise me if "the higher resolution future" that Sony referenced came in an A99 replacement first. A FE mount mirrorless that also took A mount lenses, with all the features of a Pro spec camera (dual cards, larger battery capacity, more articulated LCD, and ... retain the A99's freaking PC port that is missing on all the A7 cameras). More Leica SL like than A7ish sized ... which these new lenses will balance nicely on. Think "system" rather than "this verses that".

    I used a A99 and ZA lens system as my work-horse wedding/event/location portrait for years. When I got the A7R it never was able to effectively perform at the same effortless level for that "real world" work. It was relegated to back-up service.

    Since semi-retiring I sold the A99 and all the ZA lenses except the ZA 24-70/2.8 (which I now use on A7 cameras via the LA-EA-3/4 adapters).

    I've now committed to the A7R-II for what paying work I still do ... meaning anything with money attached to it to help pay for these toys. I've already done a number of paying gigs with the A7R-II.

    That criteria for use may differ from many here, but keep in mind that beyond full time Pros like Guy and a few other GetDpi members, there are a zillion semi-pros out there making money shooting all sorts of paying jobs ... mostly with Canon 5Ds with Zooms, plus a few fast aperture Primes. Gear in the same price range as the A99 was, and the A7R-II is now.

    The good news is how well the A7R-II camera has been improved. More useable in difficult situations. Better high ISO and IBIS are great selling points for available light work! However, it still lags even the older A99, and most certainly the CaNikon mid-price work-horses in a few key functional ways:

    It is unbalanced with faster aperture lenses and decent hot-shoe lighting solutions. Small and unbalanced is more fatiguing than bigger and balanced when shooting on the run for any extended period of time (which is almost all the time at a wedding or multiple location shoots).

    The battery situation IS an issue. A pocket full of batteries doesn't help when you are pressed for time and in the middle of a critical part of shoot and have to stop even for a minute. It nags at the back of your mind to keep an eye on the battery ... which I never had to do with Canon, Nikon or even my Leica S camera (which goes all day on one battery with lots to spare). Besides, I HATE changing batteries in the heat of battle because it's where human screw-ups can happen to corrupt a card. The one hope is that someone will eventually pack more juice into the same sized battery

    Sony remains an orphan when it comes to off-camera lighting solutions. CaNikon both have radio speed-light systems, and Profoto offers TTL/HSS strobe solutions for both, but not Sony. The A99 has a PC port which I use to connected a Profoto sender to fire a key mobile strobe light, and then use a TTL speed-light in the hot shoe for fill. The A7R/A7R-II has no PC port which is a MAJOR issue for me with no solution in sight.

    The A7R-II's menu remains a dog's breakfast of unintuitive layout that beggars the imagination as to why? I decided to have the locations of key menu functions often needed when under pressure Tattooed on my hand ... but decided that wouldn't work since they change it from camera to camera

    All things considered, the A7R-II is a great camera and I kinda like it ... but leaves room for a more pro-spec oriented body to go with these new G-Master lenses. Wouldn't kill them to offer a radio speed-light solution either.

    - Marc
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    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post

    I believe the correct technical term for your behavior is concern-trolling. Now I'm sure it's very enjoyable but I personally think that when taken to extremes it is rude and boring. Wouldn't you be better off telling the folks on the Nikon forum how great the D5 is compared to the A7R 2? That would be spreading joy.
    I don't think he is trolling and although I own an A7r and A7r2, I agree with most of what he says.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here are a couple of other large aperture portrait lenses that I believe are made to handle future high res cameras as well:

    Hasselblad/Fujinon HC 110mm f/2.2:
    Weight: 780g
    Length: 80.5mm
    Diameter: 87.5mm
    Filter thread: 77mm

    Leica Summicron-S 100mm f/2:
    Weight: 910g
    Length: 102.0mm
    Diameter: 91.0mm
    Filter thread: 82mm

    Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM:
    Weight: 820g
    Length: 108.0mm
    Diameter: 90.0mm
    Filter thread: 77mm

    Nikkor 85mm f/1.4 AF-S:
    Weight: 595g
    Length: 83.8mm
    Diameter: 86.4mm
    Filter thread: 77mm

    So, the Sony is slightly larger but also slightly lighter than the Leica, which covers a larger sensor and for sure must be designed to handle larger resolution sensors in the future. The ancient Hasselfuji which covers 60x45mm is clearly no slouch either. And the Nikon? There are reasons why people still buy those clunky, old flip-flap cameras you know. It's cheaper too

    So they've made a portrait lens as large and heavy as a medium format lens of similar caliber. Does it bother me? Not one bit, but it has given me yet another reason not to consider the A7. 85mm is one of my favourite focal lengths, and the Nikkor suddenly looks almost pocketable

    Edit: Maybe you should ban me from the Sony forum, so that you can enjoy your gear without having to see my poisonous mails on every page
    Happily the Zeiss Batis is more or less the weight of the Nikkor :

    Zeiss Batis 85 F2 :
    Weight: 602g
    Length: 131mm (I wonder whether the lenshood isn't included in that length)
    Diameter: 79mm (same for the diameder ?)
    Filter thread: 62mm

    But I prefer the 90mm F2.8 macro which weight only 475gr in spite of being a Sony G lens too.

    Also those Batis lenses are nearly impossible to get at. Here no online dealer is showing one in stock. They aren't even predicting a possible delivery date. Not even the brick and mortar shops either.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I don't think he is trolling and although I own an A7r and A7r2, I agree with most of what he says.
    Jorgen:
    It turns out you are right and I am wrong. GetDPI Sony forum enjoys your fascinating and and in no way repetitive posts. Unfortunately I have a defect that makes it impossible for me to enjoy this wisdom. Adios folks and enjoy the show.
    Regards,
    John
    Sony fanboy, shamelessly shilling for "the man" since 2010.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Interesting that the 24-80/2.8 GM Sony lens has nearly the same dimensions like the Leica 24-90/2.8-4.0 lens (even though the second is somewhat heavier)

    It appears that highest Quality lenses for mirrorless cameras are not smaller to build than there Counterparts for DSLRs.

    The question for me is: If one wants to use such lenses, are the Sony A7 series bodies size appropriate for a compfortable handling?
    I expect Sony will present a Little bigger proffessional Body in the future. But thats just my guess.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Jorgen:
    It turns out you are right and I am wrong. GetDPI Sony forum enjoys your fascinating and and in no way repetitive posts. Unfortunately I have a defect that makes it impossible for me to enjoy this wisdom. Adios folks and enjoy the show.
    We all have defects. One of mine is that I have problems closing my mouth, and words keep pouring out. I try to be friendly though

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Interesting that the 24-80/2.8 GM Sony lens has nearly the same dimensions like the Leica 24-90/2.8-4.0 lens (even though the second is somewhat heavier)

    It appears that highest Quality lenses for mirrorless cameras are not smaller to build than there Counterparts for DSLRs.

    The question for me is: If one wants to use such lenses, are the Sony A7 series bodies size appropriate for a compfortable handling?
    I expect Sony will present a Little bigger proffessional Body in the future. But thats just my guess.
    Cannot get around physics. It's still a full frame sensor. Also Sony has a extra special element in it to kill the onion rings and uts designed for higher than current Mpx sensors. There building for future higher res. Sensors that adds size.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Line Leica has done in the past with the 35-70 2.8 which they only built 500 and cost a absolute fortune and they lost money on it but but it was a statement lens that they could build one. I know I had one at 6k but Sony is making the same statement to canon and Nikon users. It's a clear statement that we can build top notch Pro line optics it's here for you to switch over now. Actually brilliant marketing . Buy it or not they don't care it's a statement we are going to support Pro usage. I love it as it's a brilliant move on there part. Remember more PR more forum threads more whining about size weight and all that creates PR which equals sales. One of the best marketing moves I seen in years in this industry
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Are you talking about the Seiss designed, Cosina made Otus? It is just a manual focus lens, better on a mirrorless cam but made for DSLRs for reasons that only Cosina know!
    The Cosina 85mm Otus and Milvus are indeed spectacular lenses. I'd love to have either, but I really have all the manual focus glass that I need. I was thinking about the Nikkor. Like most other Nikon products, it reminds me of Volvo; intensely boring until you get behind the wheel and realize that there isn't really anything important to complain about. With my work situation, that is what I need. I can carry heavy stuff, but I can't accept gear that doesn't work as I expect it to and gear that doesn't fit my brain like a glove.

    To be on the safe side, I drive a Toyota Corolla. It's even more boring than a Volvo.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here are a couple of other large aperture portrait lenses that I believe are made to handle future high res cameras as well:

    Hasselblad/Fujinon HC 110mm f/2.2:
    Weight: 780g
    Length: 80.5mm
    Diameter: 87.5mm
    Filter thread: 77mm

    Leica Summicron-S 100mm f/2:
    Weight: 910g
    Length: 102.0mm
    Diameter: 91.0mm
    Filter thread: 82mm

    Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM:
    Weight: 820g
    Length: 108.0mm
    Diameter: 90.0mm
    Filter thread: 77mm

    Nikkor 85mm f/1.4 AF-S:
    Weight: 595g
    Length: 83.8mm
    Diameter: 86.4mm
    Filter thread: 77mm

    So, the Sony is slightly larger but also slightly lighter than the Leica, which covers a larger sensor and for sure must be designed to handle larger resolution sensors in the future. The ancient Hasselfuji which covers 60x45mm is clearly no slouch either. And the Nikon? There are reasons why people still buy those clunky, old flip-flap cameras you know. It's cheaper too

    So they've made a portrait lens as large and heavy as a medium format lens of similar caliber. Does it bother me? Not one bit, but it has given me yet another reason not to consider the A7. 85mm is one of my favourite focal lengths, and the Nikkor suddenly looks almost pocketable

    Edit: Maybe you should ban me from the Sony forum, so that you can enjoy your gear without having to see my poisonous mails on every page
    The modern optics will get bigger and heavier to cope with the future, high resolution bodies. You are comparing the optics of the yesteryear and wondering why the GM 85 is big and heavy.

    Let's just look at the recent Leica SL, another FF mirrorless. For all the expertise that Leica has had this whole time in miniaturizing lenses, the new SL are just ginormous and weighty. Even though the SL body is bigger, I don't think the native combo would be balance either.

    What I have compiled this comparison table with the usual spec. But I also included the release year to put things in perspective.



    Look at the newly released 2015 Nikon 24-70 VR, it's a monster. The rest of Canikon optics have at least a 6-year lag, most notably the 85 category.

    As soon as Canikon release their next iteration of the 85, they would be big and heavy as well. Heck, the 2015 Milvus 85 is a 1.21 kg monster. What you are saying right now is like why the new Canon 35/1.4 II is bigger and heavier than the old Canon 35/1.4 when the old Canon is adequate for your needs.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Line Leica has done in the past with the 35-70 2.8 which they only built 500 and cost a absolute fortune and they lost money on it but but it was a statement lens that they could build one. I know I had one at 6k but Sony is making the same statement to canon and Nikon users. It's a clear statement that we can build top notch Pro line optics it's here for you to switch over now. Actually brilliant marketing . Buy it or not they don't care it's a statement we are going to support Pro usage. I love it as it's a brilliant move on there part. Remember more PR more forum threads more whining about size weight and all that creates PR which equals sales. One of the best marketing moves I seen in years in this industry
    Guy I don't disagree with your post but really don't think glass alone is what is holding most pro's back. You and I both know prosumers are far more likely to switch systems looking for the holy grail than pro's. Pro's tend to resist changing anything or even more resist buying anything till what they have is completely wore out. We are a cheap lot who grasp on to the life statement that "if its not broke don't fix it"! If they are getting paid for what they do and no one complains they stand pat with what they have and go all in with it. The brands they use they have used for decades and some shiny new fast glass from another brand is not going to change their bet, in fact they may double down and resist even more just to justify to themselves what is in their hand is truly the best for them(which I cannot argue with as for each individual what works and feels the best IS the best for them).

    Prosumers and wannabes (or think-they-bees) and newbee's look for the golden ring on the product merry go round far more than paid professionals. They think that equipment is the holy grail and will magically propel them to starhood. It won't, it can't , and everyone knows it is what is going on in the 12 inches behind the tools that is the only thing that can do that.

    The 3 new lense offered may appeal to some pros who's genre uses those focal lengths but lot get paid who use much wider and much longer focal lengths as their preferred tools for what they do. I for one don't use the zooms in those focal lengths I have in my other systems and they collect dust. Would the new zoom make me as a pro rush to Sony for what I do? Nope ( this is theoretical as I am already all in with Sony just making the point that many genre that photographers get paid well to shoot just would not have much interest in the glass offered). Guy for what you get paid to do these new lenses may be the best thing since a scrapple . It just depends on needs and wants but I truly would not expect many pros ( I hate the term Pro's but ) to move from what they have for shiny new fast glass. If I was Sony I would not even target them as we are cheap BUT the prosumers? Oh yeah I would glitter this pig so much they loose sleep till they empty their wallets to obtain them all!!! That is the customer base that spends money and switches brands like some change their underwear searching for that little bit of difference that will pave their path in gold. Fools and their money are soon parted.....
    Last edited by Jim DE; 5th February 2016 at 07:52.
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    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    It appears that highest Quality lenses for mirrorless cameras are not smaller to build than there Counterparts for DSLRs.
    All is a question of compromises and where you make it : size and weight ? max aperture ? image quality (sharpness, distortion, aberrations etc.) ? built quality and material quality ? or price ? You can't get all at the same time.

    But I think that apart of a few lenses (28mm F2.8, 35mm F2.8 and 55mm F1.8) we are getting way too heavy lenses. Sony made a compact body, but doesn't care about the lenses sizes. The choice of material could help with the weight.

    Here is an example of the lenses available for the Zeiss Contax G RF and those lenses are full frame :

    16mm F8 (a stellar lens, no distorsion).
    Close focus : 0,3m
    Optics : 5/3 (lenses, groups)
    Max aperture : F8
    Blades : none
    length 11mm
    Weight : 125gr

    21mm F2.8 a superb lens, very sharp and without distortion.
    Close focus : 0,5m
    Optics : 9/7 (lenses, groups)
    Max aperture : F2.8
    Blades : 7
    length : 35.5mm
    filter size : 55mm
    Weight : 180gr

    28mm F2.8
    Close focus : 0,5m
    Optics : 7/5 (lenses, groups)
    Max aperture : F2.8
    Blades : 6
    length : 30.5mm
    filter size : 46mm
    Weight : 150gr Sony FE 28mm F2 : 200gr. I'd have preferred one with slower max aperture, but lower distorsion.

    35mm F2 could be sharper in the corners
    Close focus : 0,5m
    Optics : 7/5 (lenses, groups)
    Max aperture : F2
    Blades : 7
    length : 31.5mm
    filter size : 46mm
    Weight : 150gr Sony 35mm F2.8 : 120gr.

    45mm F2 incredibly sharp
    Close focus : 0,5m
    Optics : 6/4 (lenses, groups)
    Max aperture : F2
    Blades : 6
    length : 63mm
    filter size : 46mm
    Weight : 190gr Sony FE 55mm F1.8 weight : 280gr. the Sony Zeiss lens is superb but the 1/3d larger max aperture cause an increase of 100gr.

    90mm F2.8
    Close focus : 1 m
    Optics : 5/4 (lenses, groups)
    Max aperture : F2.8
    Blades : 6
    length : 35.5mm
    filter size : 46mm
    Weight : 150gr There is no light short tele for the Sony FE system. The 90mm F2.8 macro is huge and weight 425gr.

    The Contax G lenses have compromised on both the max aperture and some aberrastions like fringing and exhibits a harsh bokey. But they are usually extremely sharp and well corrected (little distorsion). I think the material used explain part of the light weight, plus the lower number of lenses and groups and the lower number of blades.

    For the A7r, there are only three light lenses of this kind : the FE 28mm F2, the FE35mm F2.8 and the FE55mm F1.8 (already quite bigger). There are no short tele available in that category, no wider angle than F28mm; instead of continuing to develop this line, we are getting lenses so big they are unbalanced on the A7x bodies.


    The question for me is: If one wants to use such lenses, are the Sony A7 series bodies size appropriate for a compfortable handling?
    I expect Sony will present a Little bigger proffessional Body in the future. But thats just my guess.
    Good question !

    It is as if Sony started small and with the E-mount in order to lure Nex owners to jump into full frame, but then this didn't succeed, so they surrendered to the vocal crowd whinning for faster lenses on bigger bodies. The development of the FE mount is erratic to say the least.

    May be that if we whine as loud as the crowd asking fast lenses, Sony will hear us in the end and keep a line of small sharp distorsionless primes adapted to the small bodies : who knows ?
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Cannot get around physics. It's still a full frame sensor.
    No, but you have to choose where you make the compromises. For the small A7x bodies, the lower weight should be balanced against the fastest apertures. It isn't coherent to make huge lenses for small bodies. It isn't even ergonomic.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    The modern optics will get bigger and heavier to cope with the future, high resolution bodies. You are comparing the optics of the yesteryear and wondering why the GM 85 is big and heavy.

    (...)

    As soon as Canikon release their next iteration of the 85, they would be big and heavy as well. Heck, the 2015 Milvus 85 is a 1.21 kg monster. What you are saying right now is like why the new Canon 35/1.4 II is bigger and heavier than the old Canon 35/1.4 when the old Canon is adequate for your needs.
    I think there is also a great part of lazyness in not caring for the weight. There are new materials available which should allow lighter lenses. My progressive eyeglasses are made by Zeiss and they are at the same time incredibly clear and incredibly lighter than the previous ones I had, this despite complex corrections.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I think there is also a great part of lazyness in not caring for the weight. There are new materials available which should allow lighter lenses. My progressive eyeglasses are made by Zeiss and they are at the same time incredibly clear and incredibly lighter than the previous ones I had, this despite complex corrections.
    I have not seen any high-end optics in the past two years from any makers that would buck this trend of going bigger and heavier, including that Leica Lux 28/1.4. The fact that people can pixel-peep so willy-nilly nowadays that highly-corrected lenses are the only way to go. Those would need more elements for correction. To handle the added weight, AF mechanisms and the lens housing should be more robust (more parts or better material) as well.

    However, I do agree that there is a certain laziness in the industry for not pushing aggressively for a more ray angle friendly sensor or different types of lens elements.

    Canon has their new BR tech that might promise a better performance with less use of heavy ASPH glass, but they're the only one in town. Organic sensor might promise a future of small, light, rangefinder-like lenses, but that is uncertain. With the neck-breaking pace of high MP body introduction, I don't see how this is going to change any time soon. For light and small lenses, one has to settle with slower than f/1.4 (or even f/2) and more compromised performance.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I think there is also a great part of lazyness in not caring for the weight. There are new materials available which should allow lighter lenses. My progressive eyeglasses are made by Zeiss and they are at the same time incredibly clear and incredibly lighter than the previous ones I had, this despite complex corrections.
    are you serous you compare the design of a single lens which does not really need to resolve a lot with a complex lens design for a zoom ?


    and even when it is possible to build lighter lenses i would in any case opt for the lens with more weight. it is far more easier to stabilize a heavier lens than a light one. for me the sony 70-200 4 is far to light for handheld shooting especially when you use the aps -c mode so it becomes a 300mm.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    To be honest if I wanted these fast zooms I would have stuck with my Nikon D750 and the Holy Trinity.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    No, but you have to choose where you make the compromises. For the small A7x bodies, the lower weight should be balanced against the fastest apertures. It isn't coherent to make huge lenses for small bodies. It isn't even ergonomic.
    seems for mosts of the time it was not a problem for photographers to shoot a large lens attached to a small body or was the nikon F or canon F1 not a big success and standard for professional photography in almost 25 years ?
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    I have not seen any high-end optics in the past two years from any makers that would buck this trend of going bigger and heavier, including that Leica Lux 28/1.4. The fact that people can pixel-peep so willy-nilly nowadays that highly-corrected lenses are the only way to go. Those would need more elements for correction. To handle the added weight, AF mechanisms and the lens housing should be more robust (more parts or better material) as well.
    What you are saying is in reality that photography to a large degree has been replaced by pixel peeping, and I think you are right. While I find it fascinating to see all the detail that I can get using the 36MP camera, it has little or no artistic value. When I'm not doing photos for a client or shooting stock, I'm mostly back to the older 12MP variety. It's just as satisfying, and 8 years ago it was state-of-the-art.

    What I would have liked to see is an 85mm along the same lines as the 55mm f/1.8. It can't be that difficult, can it?
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    seems for mosts of the time it was not a problem for photographers to shoot a large lens attached to a small body or was the nikon F or canon F1 not a big success and standard for professional photography in almost 25 years ?
    Maybe my memory is wrong but I remember those cameras to be bigger with larger grips, wheels etc.
    even though maybe slimmer design.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    With these new lenses, Sony is chasing the same crowd that they were notably unsuccessful in chasing with their A mount cameras and lenses. This, to me, is a big mistake. For every 24-70 F/2.8 FE zoom they sell at $2,200, I believe they would sell 5x or more that number if they released an F/4 24-70 zoom with spectacular performance that was half the size and charged the same $2,200.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Could have been worse though ...

    Re-thinking basic assumptions

    ‘For the G Master lenses we decided we would assess the spatial frequency at 50 lines per mm,’ says Ohtake: ‘Usually lens makers, including ourselves, evaluate lenses at 10 and 30 lpmm (or 10, 20 and 40 for Carl Zeiss-branded optics).’

    ‘At the start of the process we all agreed we should change the spacial frequency [to a more challenging target],’ he says: ’but which is best to get good performance? We could design for 100 lpmm but the lens would become very bulky and long - which might not be a very practical lens. A balance of the size and the optical performance was very important.’

    The target of 50 lpmm wasn’t dictated by the company’s 40MP camera or 4K video, he says. ’All our FE lenses were designed for at least 40MP. Because we have an image sensor team within Sony, we get to see the sensor roadmap, so we’ve been designing for this all along with FE. With the G Master we’d like to make lenses that can be used forever.’.’
    Bart ...

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    What you are saying is in reality that photography to a large degree has been replaced by pixel peeping, and I think you are right. While I find it fascinating to see all the detail that I can get using the 36MP camera, it has little or no artistic value. When I'm not doing photos for a client or shooting stock, I'm mostly back to the older 12MP variety. It's just as satisfying, and 8 years ago it was state-of-the-art.

    What I would have liked to see is an 85mm along the same lines as the 55mm f/1.8. It can't be that difficult, can it?
    Ain't the Batis good enough? Or is it still too big and heavy? Besides the physics, a smaller 85 is possible, but again, compromised performance would be there. Should Sony release a compromised lens at this point given the existing Batis? I think not. After this gap is filled, a more affordable (probably much slower too) 85 might be next (a slightly tweaked A-mount Sony 85/2.8).

    I'm going to pre-order the GM 85. I am not going to hike with it. But I deem it would fit perfectly to its intended use, portraiture.

    From another 12MP shooter

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    With these new lenses, Sony is chasing the same crowd that they were notably unsuccessful in chasing with their A mount cameras and lenses. This, to me, is a big mistake. For every 24-70 F/2.8 FE zoom they sell at $2,200, I believe they would sell 5x or more that number if they released an F/4 24-70 zoom with spectacular performance that was half the size and charged the same $2,200.
    I'm not sure about that math. People whined and moaned about the price tag of the FE 55/1.8, even if it's wildly better than any of the current 50/1.8. An f/4 zoom, no matter how good, would see a lot of resistances at $2,200. After all, f/8 would give the same performance regardless .
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    These will possibly be the highest quality IQ lenses of their types ever made.

    I welcome lenses like this into the native Sony FE mount universe without reservation.

    No one is going to make me carry or use any lens I don't want to. But, to have the option to put what may be the world's finest AF 85mm lens or 24-70 on what is, IMO, the world's best 35mm sensor in the A7r2 and shoot with Eye Detect is incredibly compelling.

    And I can grab stabilized 4K video, with or without a crop factor.

    Or I can pop the 85 f/1.4 onto an A7s2 and get lowlight portraits and video that no other camera can capture.

    These lenses are incredibly exciting and show a commitment from Sony to advance the state of the art in lens design and manufacture.

    I am celebrating.

    -Bill
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    These will possibly be the highest quality IQ lenses of their types ever made.

    I welcome lenses like this into the native Sony FE mount universe without reservation.

    No one is going to make me carry or use any lens I don't want to. But, to have the option to put what may be the world's finest AF 85mm lens or 24-70 on what is, IMO, the world's best 35mm sensor in the A7r2 and shoot with Eye Detect is incredibly compelling.

    And I can grab stabilized 4K video, with or without a crop factor.

    Or I can pop the 85 f/1.4 onto an A7s2 and get lowlight portraits and video that no other camera can capture.

    These lenses are incredibly exciting and show a commitment from Sony to advance the state of the art in lens design and manufacture.

    I am celebrating.

    -Bill
    Right there with you Bill. Im most likely getting the 85 1.4 and the 24-70

    I can't tell you the statement Sony just made to the world. There after everyones *** and thats a company i want to do business with.

    Everyone sat back for several years smoking there cigars watching the money roll in while Sony just jumped all over them and they will not be able to respond so quickly. I like Nikon and Canon but this is on them, Sony is doing what there after , market share and there going to get it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    the camera store youtube channel just posted some impressions of the new products. when mounted on a7rII, the 24-70mm didnt look as big as i initial thought. may be is it acceptable from size point of view. now let see how well it delivers in IQ
    Keep It Simple.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    In the real world, people judge a lens from what they see. Sony has let photographers use this lens, photos have been published, that is what people see. If it will be improved before it's sent out to the market, most users will never see that. Only the dedicated enthusiasts will bother to do further research. I may be stupid and lazy, but experience has taught me that most others are at least as stupid and lazy as I am
    Most people aren't active forum followers. So I think you're making a apples/oranges argument.

    The reality is that people interested in a product usually ingest it all while they're deciding (sort of like all the tests you see on MF gear or Leica stuff that Jono does.) That's why thread like the "Fun with..." are so popular. People like to see what's possible with different gear and/or techniques.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Right there with you Bill. Im most likely getting the 85 1.4 and the 24-70

    I can't tell you the statement Sony just made to the world. There after everyones *** and thats a company i want to do business with.

    Everyone sat back for several years smoking there cigars watching the money roll in while Sony just jumped all over them and they will not be able to respond so quickly. I like Nikon and Canon but this is on them, Sony is doing what there after , market share and there going to get it
    Yes, and in their press release Sony showed slides of their camera division have grown by 43% in 2015 while the DSLR market have shrunk by 13%. When they release the A9 with a pro body, it's game over for Canikon.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    When I was shooting with Fuji XT-1 I got the Fujinon F2.8 zooms that are equivalent to the 24-70 and 70-200.
    The 16-50 is not that much smaller and about 3/4 the weight of the Sony announced lens.

    The two camera bodies are similar size.

    I didn't find the F2.8 Fujinon unwieldy on the XT-1 and I doubt that the GM will be unwieldy on the A7RII.
    Using a battery grip will certainly make it workable for me.

    I think someone has already said this, but for me, the bottom line is that I buy and use lenses based on the job and kind of pictures I want. What they weigh and their size is a reality with which I deal.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post

    Prosumers and wannabes (or think-they-bees) and newbee's look for the golden ring on the product merry go round far more than paid professionals. They think that equipment is the holy grail and will magically propel them to starhood. It won't, it can't , and everyone knows it is what is going on in the 12 inches behind the tools that is the only thing that can do that.

    ...

    I would rather be a think-they-bee with a Sony Rx1R MII, A7R MII, 85mm /1.4, 24-70 f2/2.8 then a wish I could bee without this fantastic gear that has led me to starhood on several camera forums and legendary status on facebook. For some, when the hepkitty speaks, they listen!


    Thanks Sony, keep em coming.....
    the HepKitty
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    These will possibly be the highest quality IQ lenses of their types ever made.
    Can't wait for those DXO test results! If these are anything like the new 90/2.8G they will be awesome.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
    I would rather be a think-they-bee with a Sony Rx1R MII, A7R MII, 85mm /1.4, 24-70 f2/2.8 then a wish I could bee without this fantastic gear that has led me to starhood on several camera forums and legendary status on facebook. For some, when the hepkitty speaks, they listen!


    Thanks Sony, keep em coming.....
    Lucille you could get magnificent results with a wood box and a pinhole in it... There's much going on in the 12" behind any hardware you may choose to use and that is the golden ring!
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Ain't the Batis good enough? Or is it still too big and heavy? Besides the physics, a smaller 85 is possible, but again, compromised performance would be there. Should Sony release a compromised lens at this point given the existing Batis? I think not. After this gap is filled, a more affordable (probably much slower too) 85 might be next (a slightly tweaked A-mount Sony 85/2.8).

    I'm going to pre-order the GM 85. I am not going to hike with it. But I deem it would fit perfectly to its intended use, portraiture.

    From another 12MP shooter
    Yup, or at least it's much closer. The biggest handicap of the Batis is availability. Sony will promote Sony lenses actively, while mostly connoisseurs will know about the Zeiss lenses. Are Sony and Zeiss splitting up?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    Can't wait for those DXO test results! If these are anything like the new 90/2.8G they will be awesome.
    Yup, can't wait to see an enlargement of those charts at the wall of Museum of Modern Art

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Yes, and in their press release Sony showed slides of their camera division have grown by 43% in 2015 while the DSLR market have shrunk by 13%. When they release the A9 with a pro body, it's game over for Canikon.
    If the total exchangeable lens camera market is 100, DSLR is roughly 75 and mirrorless 25. If Sony has 40% of the mirrorless market (I don't think it's that high), 43% increase for Sony is around +4% in the total market. 13% decrease for DSLRs in total is then -10% of the total market.

    However, according to CIPA, the DSLR sales went down just 8% from 2014 to 2015 as opposed to down 26% from 2013 to 2014. The mirrorless market went up 2% from 2014 to 2015 and down 1% from 2013 to 2014. All figures relate to number of units.

    Pro bodies represent only a tiny fraction of these figures, and any change in the pro market will have little or no impact on the total results. In addition, the market now seems to be more stable than before, and something more revolutionary than a pro body would have to happen for this to change. My guess is that full frame mirrorless cameras from Canon and Nikon that are more or less completely integrated with their current system would be that revolution. For Nikon, this is rather easy to do, since the Nikon 1 system is very well integrated and technologywise very advanced. Interestingly, technology that is featured as "new and revolutionary" by other camera manufacturers have sometimes already existed for a while in the V1-V3 cameras, but these cameras are living in the shadows, and it seems like Nikon wants to have it that way. I see them merely as test beds for technology. What they have to do is to make it bigger and equip it with a full frame sensor. I would be very surprised if Canon and Nikon don't have several prototypes being tested already.

    When that happens, and given the enormous customer base of those two companies, all the others will have to watch their backs. And this is probably the most important reason why Sony is pushing technology very hard at the moment. They know that when the competition arrives, they will have to be very well prepared. They're a company with around 10% market share in the interchangeable lens market. That can't be more than Minolta had back in the day of film photography.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 5th February 2016 at 22:15.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Hm... Interesting!

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201602...ntasy-MTF.html

    (sorry if a duplicate)
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexLF View Post
    Hm... Interesting!

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201602...ntasy-MTF.html

    (sorry if a duplicate)

    Thanks. I wondered about the MTF charts as well.
    As I said before I'll wait for reviews and for Roger Cicala to take the lens apart (and put it successfully back together again, of course!)
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    If the total exchangeable lens camera market is 100, DSLR is roughly 75 and mirrorless 25. If Sony has 40% of the mirrorless market (I don't think it's that high), 43% increase for Sony is around +4% in the total market. 13% decrease for DSLRs in total is then -10% of the total market.

    However, according to CIPA, the DSLR sales went down just 8% from 2014 to 2015 as opposed to down 26% from 2013 to 2014. The mirrorless market went up 2% from 2014 to 2015 and down 1% from 2013 to 2014. All figures relate to number of units.

    Pro bodies represent only a tiny fraction of these figures, and any change in the pro market will have little or no impact on the total results. In addition, the market now seems to be more stable than before, and something more revolutionary than a pro body would have to happen for this to change. My guess is that full frame mirrorless cameras from Canon and Nikon that are more or less completely integrated with their current system would be that revolution. For Nikon, this is rather easy to do, since the Nikon 1 system is very well integrated and technologywise very advanced. Interestingly, technology that is featured as "new and revolutionary" by other camera manufacturers have sometimes already existed for a while in the V1-V3 cameras, but these cameras are living in the shadows, and it seems like Nikon wants to have it that way. I see them merely as test beds for technology. What they have to do is to make it bigger and equip it with a full frame sensor. I would be very surprised if Canon and Nikon don't have several prototypes being tested already.

    When that happens, and given the enormous customer base of those two companies, all the others will have to watch their backs. And this is probably the most important reason why Sony is pushing technology very hard at the moment. They know that when the competition arrives, they will have to be very well prepared. They're a company with around 10% market share in the interchangeable lens market. That can't be more than Minolta had back in the day of film photography.
    Sony is the only manufacturer growing exponentially. Everyone else is either standing pat or losing significant market share. You can not bunch Sony together with other mirrorless systems because they represent a niche --- the premium/high-end market. Low-end cameras are a dying breed, much like DSLR's.

    And no, Canikon will not turn the table. Not with the domination in sensor technology that Sony enjoys. Either way, they'd better hurry before they go extinct.


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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Sony is the only manufacturer growing exponentially. Everyone else is either standing pat or losing significant market share. You can not bunch Sony together with other mirrorless systems because they represent a niche --- the premium/high-end market. Low-end cameras are a dying breed, much like DSLR's.

    And no, Canikon will not turn the table. Not with the domination in sensor technology that Sony enjoys. Either way, they'd better hurry before they go extinct.

    I don't know where your figures come from. The CIPA figures represent the total deliveries of all Japanese camera brands for the whole years stated. Whatever way you put it, Sony does still only have a 10% market share, and the DSLR market is still three times as large as the mirrorless market. Where I live, in Thailand, Sony isn't even the mirrorless market leader. That position goes to Fuji, which also outsells Canon and Nikon in this country (mirrorless and DSLR).

    I don't know about other countries, but here, many shop owners don't want Sony in their shops due to their terms and thei exposure requirements (they basically wants to be exposed as the leading brand of each shop or else not at all). There's a similar problem with Samsung, the result being that they have mostly disappeared from the shops entirely.

    Here's a link to CIPA's statistics page, containing sales figures for the last 17 years:

    CIPA - Camera & Imaging Products Association: Digital Cameras

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Jimminy-Cricket, these lenses sure are expensive for work-a-day focal lengths.

    What you get for $3.2K, the A7R-II body is sort of a relative value ... but holy-moly buying premium Sony GM glass to match the resolution demands really jacks up the tariff (IF they actually do make that big a difference in real world shooting (other than on a locked down tripod) ... which remains to be seen).

    So, I wonder who is making these? Is it Sony themselves, and will we have to buy three to get one good one? The Sony G lenses I had before were good but not that great ... and all the ZA Zeiss glass produced better results. Are these different than G ... is G Master something new ... a class above the G?

    I guess it's cheap when compared to Leica, which I can't bring myself to shell out for anymore either Those days are behind me.

    I do wish (like others here), for some smaller, high quality optics in the manner of the FE 55/1.8. The Batis do look good, but are rare as hen's teeth.

    A well made, Sony FE 35/1.8, FE 85/1.8, FE 135/3.5 anyone?

    - Marc
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't know where your figures come from. The CIPA figures represent the total deliveries of all Japanese camera brands for the whole years stated. Whatever way you put it, Sony does still only have a 10% market share, and the DSLR market is still three times as large as the mirrorless market. Where I live, in Thailand, Sony isn't even the mirrorless market leader. That position goes to Fuji, which also outsells Canon and Nikon in this country (mirrorless and DSLR).

    I don't know about other countries, but here, many shop owners don't want Sony in their shops due to their terms and thei exposure requirements (they basically wants to be exposed as the leading brand of each shop or else not at all). There's a similar problem with Samsung, the result being that they have mostly disappeared from the shops entirely.

    Here's a link to CIPA's statistics page, containing sales figures for the last 17 years:

    CIPA - Camera & Imaging Products Association: Digital Cameras
    Sony has shifted all of their products (not just cameras) to a premium/high-end line-up and have been slowly pulling out of the entry-level market. They have reduced their vast product lineup of over 1800 items in 2012 to only 400 items in 2015. As a result of their profit-based business model, they are more profitable than ever.

    What you fail to realize is that market share is based on units sold. It is very clear from their recent strategy shift that Sony is not concerned about market share that includes $300-$500 cameras from the lesser companies. The bottom end of the market is getting chewed up by the ever improving smartphone cameras. The market is shrinking at an alarming rate, yet Sony's margins (per unit sold) are much larger than their competitors. Their premium camera division brings in more cash than any other competitor. In addition their image sensor division owns over 40% of the world's market share. Sony is making their shareholders very happy, and trust me, they know what they are doing. Unfortunately the same can not be said about Canikon.

  44. #144
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    I'm only interested in 'high quality optics', whether they are slow&small&light or fast&large&heavy.
    It's the not-so-well-made fact I'm mostly concerned about.
    Reason why I only have one native FE Sony lens (24-240).
    Bart ...

  45. #145
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    I'm only interested in 'high quality optics', whether they are slow&small&light or fast&large&heavy.
    It's the not-so-well-made fact I'm mostly concerned about.
    Reason why I only have one native FE Sony lens (24-240).
    Could you clarify?

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    I hope everyone realizes by now these lenses are not being made for the current mpx cameras. There made for much higher ones. Sony is building for future bodies . It's very clear they are coming now. What form factor I'm not sure but it obviously will be FE mount. These lenses far exceed our current 42mpx sensors . So if you think it's to pair with current bodies it is not. There putting the lenses out there first to make a clear cut statement but will followed up by a new body. The A6300 is also a clear indication if new AF tech that they can put in a new body. It's very obvious to me at least is they are building the puzzle for a new high end cam. This is exactly why I want to start getting these lenses now is to have them in place. But Sony is building there future. That's the real underlying secret few are picking up on. You all know as well as I they throw a 80 mpx sensor at us we all are going to say no current lens will resolve that. With these that argument won't hold water , there here already.
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 6th February 2016 at 07:04.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Sony is making their shareholders very happy, and trust me, they know what they are doing. Unfortunately the same can not be said about Canikon.
    I guess maintaining the market share of around 10% that they have had since they took over Konica Minolta's camera division can be called a kind of success. There are others who have done much worse. But to say that Canikon, with a combined share well over 60% of the same market don't know what they are doing is probably to exaggerate somewhat. 10% is 10%, and if that doesn't change, Sony's camera division is on shaky ground.

    As for the sensor production, there's no way that Sony can stop selling to others. Reducing the production with more than 50%, probably much more, will either increase prices or reduce profit. Sony probably cannot live with either. There is competition out there. Not all Nikon's DSLR sensors are made by Sony and none of Canon's are.

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I guess maintaining the market share of around 10% that they have had since they took over Konica Minolta's camera division can be called a kind of success. There are others who have done much worse. But to say that Canikon, with a combined share well over 60% of the same market don't know what they are doing is probably to exaggerate somewhat. 10% is 10%, and if that doesn't change, Sony's camera division is on shaky ground.

    As for the sensor production, there's no way that Sony can stop selling to others. Reducing the production with more than 50%, probably much more, will either increase prices or reduce profit. Sony probably cannot live with either. There is competition out there. Not all Nikon's DSLR sensors are made by Sony and none of Canon's are.
    Look where DSLR's are heading.



    And this is the latest trend of the best-selling cameras in the world, smartphones. 40% of these cameras use Sony sensors.



    Are you still going to argue Canikon is doing better than Sony?

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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    I think it's pointless to judge the success of a company by # of units sold and market share. In the end it's margin and profit that determine longevity.

    And looking at the first graph above I don't think any company or camera style is selling particularly well the last 3-4 month.
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    Re: G Master lenses - 24-70mm f/2.8, 85mm f/1.4 & 70-200mm f/2.8

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    I think it's pointless to judge the success of a company by # of units sold and market share. In the end it's margin and profit that determine longevity.

    And looking at the first graph above I don't think any company or camera style is selling particularly well the last 3-4 month.
    I agree. But I do think Sony is selling pretty hot right now. My only concern as a end user is the company is viable and willing to take on risk reward products and innovate like crazy. No one else is really innovating like Sony. Im hanging out with Sony
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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