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It's that time of the year again

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Has anyone given up a medium format digital kit for the Sony? Even the Mk II ?

Its certainly a lot lighter and has more capabilities but then you lose megapixels unless you are using an old back
I imagine plenty of ppl have. Chris Barrett is one pro photographer that comes to mind, he posts a bunch over at LuLa. I've seen other pro photographers I follow on instagram that do architecture that have been posting more BTS with their A7RII/Canon TS-E kits than their Phase kits recently too. When I had an A7RII, I purchased it from a forum member who ditched his IQ180 for Sony (I think he's using a GFX now).

The loss of megapixels can easily be mitigated by stitching if you need larger files. The 55mm was my favorite lens to stitch with because it was craaaaazy sharp and had very little distortion. It's a piece of cake to stitch with the Sony using the EVF or live view (with the articulating screen) and grid overlay/live histogram/etc, and I made plenty of stitched pano's with the A7R and A7RII (when I had them) that are all 60-100mp total which look great. Doug, judging by your instagram and most of the subject matter you post, you could easily make large files that outresolve single shots from your IQ180 with stitching. Intercontinental and cross-country travel I've also found much more enjoyable with lighter mirrorless systems compared to my H system or 645z.
-Todd
 

DougDolde

Well-known member
I really never considered Sony before during the Mark II era since it had so many flaws like small battery, terrible menus, etc but the new Mark III seems to have addressed all of them except perhaps the Star Eater issue.

The only other real alternative in this price range is the D850 and I suppose both would merit consideration for a medium format replacement. The EVF is a nice touch though as well as the smaller size of the Sony.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
I really never considered Sony before during the Mark II era since it had so many flaws like small battery, terrible menus, etc but the new Mark III seems to have addressed all of them except perhaps the Star Eater issue.

The only other real alternative in this price range is the D850 and I suppose both would merit consideration for a medium format replacement. The EVF is a nice touch though as well as the smaller size of the Sony.
The Star Eater issue is annoying for sure, especially because the Batis 18mm is really a fine astro lens in terms of handling coma, etc (from my experience, even if it's only f2.8). The Batis 18mm is also incredibly compact for a UWA (77mm filter thread) and very light.

For me, eye-tracking AF may be the biggest draw for the A7RIII as I may be getting back into weddings and engagements, and my wife and I may have a little human sometime next year (the Sony would fit into a diaper bag easier than the Nikon). Eye-tracking AF, which seems to work very very well on the A7RIII, would make photographing all of that easier. I wish they'd work on the Star Eater thing, but since I only shoot astro work about 1-2x per year, I'm not sure how big a priority I should make it personally (despite how much I love shooting the milky way).

For anyone looking for a MF replacement, I'd wait until next year to see what happens with the next generation of 33x44mm (and 40mmx54mm) MF chips before investing in another system. Yes there's always something new on the horizon these days, but even if only 33x44mm, 100mp BSI is on the roadmap for next year I believe, and that's a pretty huge difference from the D850 or A7RIII. If Fuji (and/or Hasselblad) could make a GFX100 or X2D with that chip at a reasonable price that would be a big winner, and both systems will have more lenses out (and "cheap" used GFX50 and X1Ds would be out). At the very least, waiting a few months would also give time for the D850 and A7RIII to be in stock and the initial bugs worked out, and maybe even go on sale.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
The star eater goes well beyond just astro and affects any long exposure captures. Yes, it needs to be addressed and remedied.

Good point on the upcoming BSI medium format sensors.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
Has anyone given up a medium format digital kit for the Sony? Even the Mk II ?
*Raises Hand*

I switched from a used Contax 645 / P30+ combo that I purchased in 2010 to an A7R in 2014, after passing through a Fuji phase with an X-Pro1 that ran from 2012-13.

Prior to the C645/P30+ combo (which I still have and use occasionally for daylight photography), I was using various m4/3 cameras, but upgraded to MF digital to achieve better image quality and potential sales sizzle. (I was told by several portfolio reviewers, gallery owners, and Mark Klett, who reviewed my portfolio with me when I was trying to enroll in one of his graduate classes at ASU, that if I wanted to be taken seriously, I would need to use a camera that had more presence than the diminutive Panasonic GF1 / GX1 I was using at the time. Klett had recently switched over to medium-format digital himself and he, in particular, strongly encouraged me to do the same. Fortunately, I had the money and found some good deals on used gear, so I reluctantly made a major leap upmarket.)

What I didn't realize at first is that for the type of photography I do -- low-light, long-exposure, architectural-type photos taken at night (https://audiidudii.aminus3.com/ if you're curious) -- getting enough DoF with a 44x33 sensor would ultimately prove to be very problematic, because stopping down the lens further also meant increasing the exposure length. (Although I did successfully adapt a few shift lenses to work with the C645 body, I needed tilt and swing to address my DoF issues and modifying gear to make that possible was beyond both my ability and resources back then.)

So what had been a 60-second exposure with an m4/3 camera would typically become a six-minute exposure with a P30+, which was long enough that I found it almost impossible to take photos without a car driving through the scene or an airplane flying past overhead or a person with a cell phone walking through it, etc.

Between test exposures to check focus and composition, combined with the need to cool the back for several minutes between shots to minimize noise -- especially during the summer months, where the ambient temps would often be over 100 degrees F at midnight! -- it sometimes took me an hour to take a single photo. Not only did this take a lot of fun out of photography for me, it also significantly reduced my yield, such that I sometimes returned home from an outing after taking only one or two photos instead of one or two dozen photos.

Although the X-Pro1's IQ was a significant step down compared to the C645/P30+ combo, its smaller sensor was a welcome change, because the resulting increase in DoF from using shorter lenses allowed me to significantly shorten my exposures, which in turn made photography fun for me again, because I wasn't spending most of my time standing around.

Ultimately, the A7R, with its 24x36 sensor and strong performance in low-light, long-exposure situations, proved to be the sweet spot for me. And now that I have view-camera movements available again via a Cambo Actus and am median-blending multiple exposures to further reduce noise, I couldn't be happier where I've ended up. :D

That said, I found the A7RII to be a disappointment for my purposes, even before the star-eater issues surfaced. While it clearly offered a noticeable IQ improvement over the A7R for daylight photography, the one I worked with for three weeks proved to consistently create more chroma noise than my A7R when I used it for my nighttime photography. I was prepared to make the upgrade, but in the end, I realized it would actually be a downgrade, so I skipped it and crossed my fingers that the A7RIII would prove better in this respect.

And perhaps it will, but so far, the fact that Sony is using the same sensor hasn't caused me to be very optimistic about its potential. I suppose I'll rent one in a couple of months to test it first-hand -- alas, I've found very few reviewers use cameras the way I do, so their comments aren't particularly relevant to me -- and if I'm wrong, then I'll eat my words and happily upgrade then. <shrugs>
 

ggibson

Well-known member
For me, eye-tracking AF may be the biggest draw for the A7RIII as I may be getting back into weddings and engagements, and my wife and I may have a little human sometime next year (the Sony would fit into a diaper bag easier than the Nikon). Eye-tracking AF, which seems to work very very well on the A7RIII, would make photographing all of that easier.
Eye-AF works really well on the A7rII, at least well enough to track my little human. The only annoyance to me is that it requires a button to be held down to activate it. If I'm handing the camera to my wife or just holding focus on someone, I'd much rather be able to just toggle it on. Does the A9 work the same way? I have seen comparison videos showing tracking improvements (which seem like it takes the feature from "really good" to "really really good"), but is operating Eye-AF still requiring a button to be held?

Ergonomically, the only button I've found comfortable for the config is the AEL toggle button. It looks like the A7rIII/A9 back is redesigned, so those who use it, what is your Eye-AF config like?
 

PeterA

Well-known member
*Raises Hand*

I switched from a used Contax 645 / P30+ combo that I purchased in 2010 to an A7R in 2014, after passing through a Fuji phase with an X-Pro1 that ran from 2012-13.

Prior to the C645/P30+ combo (which I still have and use occasionally for daylight photography), I was using various m4/3 cameras, but upgraded to MF digital to achieve better image quality and potential sales sizzle. (I was told by several portfolio reviewers, gallery owners, and Mark Klett, who reviewed my portfolio with me when I was trying to enroll in one of his graduate classes at ASU, that if I wanted to be taken seriously, I would need to use a camera that had more presence than the diminutive Panasonic GF1 / GX1 I was using at the time. Klett had recently switched over to medium-format digital himself and he, in particular, strongly encouraged me to do the same. Fortunately, I had the money and found some good deals on used gear, so I reluctantly made a major leap upmarket.)

What I didn't realize at first is that for the type of photography I do -- low-light, long-exposure, architectural-type photos taken at night (https://audiidudii.aminus3.com/ if you're curious) -- getting enough DoF with a 44x33 sensor would ultimately prove to be very problematic, because stopping down the lens further also meant increasing the exposure length. (Although I did successfully adapt a few shift lenses to work with the C645 body, I needed tilt and swing to address my DoF issues and modifying gear to make that possible was beyond both my ability and resources back then.)

So what had been a 60-second exposure with an m4/3 camera would typically become a six-minute exposure with a P30+, which was long enough that I found it almost impossible to take photos without a car driving through the scene or an airplane flying past overhead or a person with a cell phone walking through it, etc.

Between test exposures to check focus and composition, combined with the need to cool the back for several minutes between shots to minimize noise -- especially during the summer months, where the ambient temps would often be over 100 degrees F at midnight! -- it sometimes took me an hour to take a single photo. Not only did this take a lot of fun out of photography for me, it also significantly reduced my yield, such that I sometimes returned home from an outing after taking only one or two photos instead of one or two dozen photos.

Although the X-Pro1's IQ was a significant step down compared to the C645/P30+ combo, its smaller sensor was a welcome change, because the resulting increase in DoF from using shorter lenses allowed me to significantly shorten my exposures, which in turn made photography fun for me again, because I wasn't spending most of my time standing around.

Ultimately, the A7R, with its 24x36 sensor and strong performance in low-light, long-exposure situations, proved to be the sweet spot for me. And now that I have view-camera movements available again via a Cambo Actus and am median-blending multiple exposures to further reduce noise, I couldn't be happier where I've ended up. :D

That said, I found the A7RII to be a disappointment for my purposes, even before the star-eater issues surfaced. While it clearly offered a noticeable IQ improvement over the A7R for daylight photography, the one I worked with for three weeks proved to consistently create more chroma noise than my A7R when I used it for my nighttime photography. I was prepared to make the upgrade, but in the end, I realized it would actually be a downgrade, so I skipped it and crossed my fingers that the A7RIII would prove better in this respect.

And perhaps it will, but so far, the fact that Sony is using the same sensor hasn't caused me to be very optimistic about its potential. I suppose I'll rent one in a couple of months to test it first-hand -- alas, I've found very few reviewers use cameras the way I do, so their comments aren't particularly relevant to me -- and if I'm wrong, then I'll eat my words and happily upgrade then. <shrugs>
Great post.

You show that every working professional has his/her own unique needs. For mine (FWIW) - I don't see a huge IQ difference between Sony or MF cameras - on a tripod I don't see any advantage to using Sony it is on a tripod - if I add lighting I see an advantage to MF, if I use lighting I see disadvantages in the more interesting MF alternatives eg the XID -needing to shoot manual ...

Faor the happy snapper the real world image IQ difference between any MF camera and a Sony/Fuji/Leica whatever ..is approaching - zero.
 

seb

Member
Did you really expect the readout speed of the a9? Or even more... the readout time? The price would be doubled for that feature and I'm not sure anyone would pay it because there is an a9 already.

So Flash sync = 1/13 s = electronic shutter speed = 1/13 s = sensor read out time. :facesmack:
 
V

Vivek

Guest
This once again affirms that sony’s processors and the cameras are huge compromise and do not do justice to their great sensors.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Did you really expect the readout speed of the a9? Or even more... the readout time? The price would be doubled for that feature and I'm not sure anyone would pay it because there is an a9 already.
Your leading strawman question is quite absurd.
The electronic readout time of the A7r3 of 1/13 s is exactly what I expected.
That's why I have and will continue to enjoy my A9 and A7r2.
Once the A9r materializes in the future, I will add that to my toolset.
 

Pradeep

Member
Thanks! Interesting! I will wait for gen II or III of the pixel shift.
Vivek, you don't have to wait. The A7Riii can do it in camera but you can do it easily with or without a tripod. Plenty of YT videos on this technique, called 'super resolution'. It gives you around 4X the size of the single image in terms of resolution. It also reduces noise and definitely gives you a more 'immersive' detail in your images. Only problem is with subjects that are moving quickly i.e. cars or people. But for scenics it is pretty good. You can also do it with long exposure photography of say water bodies and such.

Here is one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7POpid-e8U&feature=youtu.be

This is a rather lengthy and convoluted approach but it is worth watching. There are other ways to do it by simply stacking the layers and converting to smart object and then running a 'median' filter on them.
 

Pradeep

Member
Great post.

You show that every working professional has his/her own unique needs. For mine (FWIW) - I don't see a huge IQ difference between Sony or MF cameras - on a tripod I don't see any advantage to using Sony it is on a tripod - if I add lighting I see an advantage to MF, if I use lighting I see disadvantages in the more interesting MF alternatives eg the XID -needing to shoot manual ...

Faor the happy snapper the real world image IQ difference between any MF camera and a Sony/Fuji/Leica whatever ..is approaching - zero.
Agree completely. Everyone has their own needs and its horses for courses.

I have never been happier moving to Sony, but that's just my own bias. At the end of the day not much difference if your final destination is the print, we've done that analysis before.
 

thrice

Active member
Has anyone given up a medium format digital kit for the Sony? Even the Mk II ?

Its certainly a lot lighter and has more capabilities but then you lose megapixels unless you are using an old back
I gave up the Alpa and P45 for an A7RII. I miss the deliberate nature of the Alpa, and the SNR of the P45's bigger chip. The convenience and compactness of the A7RII is a boon though.
 

scho

Well-known member
I use PhotoAcute 3 occasionally for creating "Super Resolution" files . Here is a quick 9 shot, handheld burst with an A7II converted to a 96 MP image in PhotoAcute and then downsized to 42 MP for upload here (Instant A7rII conversion :rolleyes:).



Vivek, you don't have to wait. The A7Riii can do it in camera but you can do it easily with or without a tripod. Plenty of YT videos on this technique, called 'super resolution'. It gives you around 4X the size of the single image in terms of resolution. It also reduces noise and definitely gives you a more 'immersive' detail in your images. Only problem is with subjects that are moving quickly i.e. cars or people. But for scenics it is pretty good. You can also do it with long exposure photography of say water bodies and such.

Here is one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7POpid-e8U&feature=youtu.be

This is a rather lengthy and convoluted approach but it is worth watching. There are other ways to do it by simply stacking the layers and converting to smart object and then running a 'median' filter on them.
 

Pradeep

Member
I use PhotoAcute 3 occasionally for creating "Super Resolution" files . Here is a quick 9 shot, handheld burst with an A7II converted to a 96 MP image in PhotoAcute and then downsized to 42 MP for upload here (Instant A7rII conversion :rolleyes:).

Thanks Carl, this is very interesting. However, PhotoAcute is no longer for sale, a new version is planned from what I read on their website. The current one is quite dated - no profile for newer cameras from Sony or their lenses. I wonder how this technique would compare with the super-resolution process through Photoshop with stacked layers and median filter - which BTW also removes moving objects unless there are too many of them so you do not see the subject behind clearly on any frame.

There is yet another technique being developed which can enhance a single image - hard to plan and shoot multiple all the time, plus this allows older photographs to be 'improved'.

http://webdav.tuebingen.mpg.de/pixel/enhancenet/

I guess this is why the Japanese government issued a warning to its citizens - do not have your picture taken with your hands up in the air - somebody could clone your fingerprints!
 
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