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Cambo Actus / HCAM Doubleshifter image circle - shift capability

kbx

New member
So I've been reading these forums for a while now, and I haven't been able to find this info.

I'm an architectural photographer currently using Canon, and very eager to try out a sony "tech cam" kit, mainly for image circle and also I want to be able to shift both x and y axis at the same time.

I have read that the Cambo Actus Mini doesn't allow you to use the full image circle of the lens, maybe because of the distance to the sensor? While the Doubleshifter allows you to use the entirety of the circle.

Is this true? Is there a difference in shift capacity between the Actus and the Doubleshifter?

Also, why has no one made yet a true 35mm tech cam? Something like the Arca-Swiss Rm3di except purely for 35mm, with mounts for EF, HC, Pentax, etc. With a real viewfinder & 15mm+ shift on each axis. Would absolutely love this.

Rm3di on a Sony with HC lenses would be the absolute best.

Thank you.
 

MrSmith

Member
I have read that the Cambo Actus Mini doesn't allow you to use the full image circle of the lens,
What lens?
I can run out of image circle on my lenses (actus A7RII) but they are 50,60,75,80,120.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
I have read that the Cambo Actus Mini doesn't allow you to use the full image circle of the lens, maybe because of the distance to the sensor? While the Doubleshifter allows you to use the entirety of the circle.

Is this true? Is there a difference in shift capacity between the Actus and the Doubleshifter?
I can't speak to the HCAM Doubleshifter because I have no experience with it. I do, however, have some experience with the Mirex adapter on which it was based, which is why I chose to buy a Cambo Actus instead.

Although the HCAM's movements are indeed "geared" after a fashion, IMO, they are somewhat crude in use compared to the Actus. That's because the movements must be applied in increments of 1 mm by squeezing a tab and sliding a geared rack so it engages the next gear tooth against a pawl, whereas the Actus' rise/fall movements can be applied continuously, in increments of a fraction of a millimeter, by rotating a knob. (Unfortunately, the Actus' shift movement on my model is not geared at all and is adjusted by sliding alone ... boo-hiss!)

For the way I work, I greatly prefer the approach Cambo chose. And while I don't use them very often, I do occasionally use the swing and tilt movements when there's no alternative to achieve the DoF I need and the HCAM models don't offer them, so that was another point in favor of the Actus. Of course, the HCAM is noticeably smaller and lighter than the Actus, which in turn allows the use of a less heavy tripod, too, creating even more weight savings. This may not seem like a big deal, but when one of your projects has you carrying the camera / tripod combo around over your shoulder while you're on foot, walking anywhere from three to six miles per outing, even a few ounces of weight savings is noticeable and very much appreciated!

Of course, this is just me and my opinion / personal preference, so YMMV!

Also, why has no one made yet a true 35mm tech cam? Something like the Arca-Swiss Rm3di except purely for 35mm, with mounts for EF, HC, Pentax, etc. With a real viewfinder & 15mm+ shift on each axis. Would absolutely love this.

Rm3di on a Sony with HC lenses would be the absolute best.
For a long time, I wondered about this as well and ultimately had a go at creating one myself, modifying a Cambo Wide DS to accept my A7R body on the back and 35mm format lenses (and medium-format lenses via adapters) on the front:



As you can see, I flipped it on its side, because this had the effect of moving the rise / fall movement to the back of the camera (which, for me, is preferrable to having it on the front of the camera, because this way, the lens doesn't move, minimizing parallax errors when stitching and also eliminating the need to recompose a photo when applying rise / fall movements.) I also added a larger, external battery to power both the 7" HDMI monitor I use and the A7R body, as well as fabricated a bracket to carry a spare lens or two around with me when I'm working away from my car. (Note: I was barely able to make the A7R work and there's no way that an A7RII or III body will work with this setup without, at a minimum, requiring significantly more work -- including machine work -- due to their larger size.)

It actually works very, very well -- except for the movement control knobs being on the front, so one has to operate them blindly, which I find a bit annoying -- and if not for my occasional need to use tilt and swing movements as well, I would favor it over the Actus, because keeping the front and rear standards of the Actus perfectly aligned all the time is by no means guaranteed due to the (IMO) excessive play in its tilt and swing mechanisms. (I've tightened them considerably over how they were set by the factory, but they still drift slightly over the course of an outing. It's probably not a big deal for most people, but when you're trying to stop down the lens aperture as little as possible while achieving the necessary DoF, as I am, because I photograph at night and thanks to Sony's firmware switching the camera files from 13-bit depth to 12-bit depth for exposures longer than 30 seconds, I rarely have any DoF to spare and can't stop-down the aperture any further without making the exposures longer than 30 seconds. As a result, the effects of even very small, but unintended, tilt and swing movements can become visible.)

Although the modifications I performed to the WDS weren't impossibly difficult -- I did everything myself at home, using basic tools and no machine work -- making it possible for the camera to accept 35mm-format lenses did increase the degree of difficulty somewhat, because there was a limit as to how thick the camera could be and still focus the lens at infinity. If one uses only medium-format lenses, however, this restriction will be eased considerably, making a project similar to this one much, much easier to accomplish.

FYI, I did, very briefly, consider modifying an Arca-Swiss Rm3di instead of the Cambo WDS, but the fact that used WDS bodies sell for a fraction of what an Rm3di does was the deciding factor. But as I learned from tinkering with cars, it's always best to start with the version you wish to end up with when you're finished, so if you really want an Rm3di, then that's what I suggest you use as your donor body. :)
 

kbx

New member
I can't speak to the HCAM Doubleshifter because I have no experience with it. I do, however, have some experience with the Mirex adapter on which it was based, which is why I chose to buy a Cambo Actus instead.

Although the HCAM's movements are indeed "geared" after a fashion, IMO, they are somewhat crude in use compared to the Actus. That's because the movements must be applied in increments of 1 mm by squeezing a tab and sliding a geared rack so it engages the next gear tooth against a pawl, whereas the Actus' rise/fall movements can be applied continuously, in increments of a fraction of a millimeter, by rotating a knob. (Unfortunately, the Actus' shift movement on my model is not geared at all and is adjusted by sliding alone ... boo-hiss!)

For the way I work, I greatly prefer the approach Cambo chose. And while I don't use them very often, I do occasionally use the swing and tilt movements when there's no alternative to achieve the DoF I need and the HCAM models don't offer them, so that was another point in favor of the Actus. Of course, the HCAM is noticeably smaller and lighter than the Actus, which in turn allows the use of a less heavy tripod, too, creating even more weight savings. This may not seem like a big deal, but when one of your projects has you carrying the camera / tripod combo around over your shoulder while you're on foot, walking anywhere from three to six miles per outing, even a few ounces of weight savings is noticeable and very much appreciated!

Of course, this is just me and my opinion / personal preference, so YMMV!



For a long time, I wondered about this as well and ultimately had a go at creating one myself, modifying a Cambo Wide DS to accept my A7R body on the back and 35mm format lenses (and medium-format lenses via adapters) on the front:



As you can see, I flipped it on its side, because this had the effect of moving the rise / fall movement to the back of the camera (which, for me, is preferrable to having it on the front of the camera, because this way, the lens doesn't move, minimizing parallax errors when stitching and also eliminating the need to recompose a photo when applying rise / fall movements.) I also added a larger, external battery to power both the 7" HDMI monitor I use and the A7R body, as well as fabricated a bracket to carry a spare lens or two around with me when I'm working away from my car. (Note: I was barely able to make the A7R work and there's no way that an A7RII or III body will work with this setup without, at a minimum, requiring significantly more work -- including machine work -- due to their larger size.)

It actually works very, very well -- except for the movement control knobs being on the front, so one has to operate them blindly, which I find a bit annoying -- and if not for my occasional need to use tilt and swing movements as well, I would favor it over the Actus, because keeping the front and rear standards of the Actus perfectly aligned all the time is by no means guaranteed due to the (IMO) excessive play in its tilt and swing mechanisms. (I've tightened them considerably over how they were set by the factory, but they still drift slightly over the course of an outing. It's probably not a big deal for most people, but when you're trying to stop down the lens aperture as little as possible while achieving the necessary DoF, as I am, because I photograph at night and thanks to Sony's firmware switching the camera files from 13-bit depth to 12-bit depth for exposures longer than 30 seconds, I rarely have any DoF to spare and can't stop-down the aperture any further without making the exposures longer than 30 seconds. As a result, the effects of even very small, but unintended, tilt and swing movements can become visible.)

Although the modifications I performed to the WDS weren't impossibly difficult -- I did everything myself at home, using basic tools and no machine work -- making it possible for the camera to accept 35mm-format lenses did increase the degree of difficulty somewhat, because there was a limit as to how thick the camera could be and still focus the lens at infinity. If one uses only medium-format lenses, however, this restriction will be eased considerably, making a project similar to this one much, much easier to accomplish.

FYI, I did, very briefly, consider modifying an Arca-Swiss Rm3di instead of the Cambo WDS, but the fact that used WDS bodies sell for a fraction of what an Rm3di does was the deciding factor. But as I learned from tinkering with cars, it's always best to start with the version you wish to end up with when you're finished, so if you really want an Rm3di, then that's what I suggest you use as your donor body. :)
Wow ! So much information. Thank you so much.

Basically then you can use the absolute max image circle of any lens with the Actus as with the Doubleshifter from what I read... I was doubting this because of the distance to the sensor, since I've read some posts with like 20mm of shift from the 16-35mm F4L using the Doubleshifter.

Modifying a tech camera to fit 35mm sounds pretty good, but I would want a pro solution with at least tech support, since I make a living from this... Hopefully someone releases something like the Actus but only for shift, and in a much simpler body.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
Basically then you can use the absolute max image circle of any lens with the Actus as with the Doubleshifter from what I read... I was doubting this because of the distance to the sensor, since I've read some posts with like 20mm of shift from the 16-35mm F4L using the Doubleshifter.[/i]
The lens design dictates the distance from the lens flange to the sensor, so as long as there's no mechanical vignetting with one camera versus the other -- and between these two cameras, it's my understanding there isn't -- then the size of the image circle it projects should be identical with it mounted on either camera. I believe the Doublshifter can shift 15 mm in any direction -- literally, because unlike the Actus, its movements can be rotated, so diagonal shifts are possible (and perhaps even more than 15 mm if the two movements can be rotated independently of each other, which I'm not certain about) -- whereas the Actus can achieve a horizontal shift of 20 mm in either direction but only +12 mm / - 15 mm of rise / fall movement.

In my experience, doing the type of architectural-related photography I do -- samples of which can be seen at my photo-blog, if you're curious: https://audiidudii.aminus3.com/ -- the Actus has more than enough rise / fall / shift capability for any single shots I've ever taken. For stitching purposes, of course, more is better, but as it is, I can reach the limits of the image circles projected by my Contax 654 lenses with my Actus, so it's good enough for me.

Modifying a tech camera to fit 35mm sounds pretty good, but I would want a pro solution with at least tech support, since I make a living from this... Hopefully someone releases something like the Actus but only for shift, and in a much simpler body.
Given the basic simplicity of a tech camera, I'm not sure why you would ever need tech support for it unless some part breaks, but I'm just a hobbyist and tinkerer of all things electro-mechanical, so my circumstances are clearly different than yours. As for whether a profesionally made version of a 35mm-format tech camera ever becomes commercially available, I wouldn't hold my breath, because I suspect the potential market for one is teeny-tiny right now and growing smaller, not larger. As a point of reference, among my (admittedly small) circle of photographer friends, several of whom are former view camera users, I am the only one who isn't satisfied by correcting geometric / perspective distortions during post-processing using software. <shrugs>
 

kbx

New member
The lens design dictates the distance from the lens flange to the sensor, so as long as there's no mechanical vignetting with one camera versus the other -- and between these two cameras, it's my understanding there isn't -- then the size of the image circle it projects should be identical with it mounted on either camera. I believe the Doublshifter can shift 15 mm in any direction -- literally, because unlike the Actus, its movements can be rotated, so diagonal shifts are possible (and perhaps even more than 15 mm if the two movements can be rotated independently of each other, which I'm not certain about) -- whereas the Actus can achieve a horizontal shift of 20 mm in either direction but only +12 mm / - 15 mm of rise / fall movement.

In my experience, doing the type of architectural-related photography I do -- samples of which can be seen at my photo-blog, if you're curious: https://audiidudii.aminus3.com/ -- the Actus has more than enough rise / fall / shift capability for any single shots I've ever taken. For stitching purposes, of course, more is better, but as it is, I can reach the limits of the image circles projected by my Contax 654 lenses with my Actus, so it's good enough for me.



Given the basic simplicity of a tech camera, I'm not sure why you would ever need tech support for it unless some part breaks, but I'm just a hobbyist and tinkerer of all things electro-mechanical, so my circumstances are clearly different than yours. As for whether a profesionally made version of a 35mm-format tech camera ever becomes commercially available, I wouldn't hold my breath, because I suspect the potential market for one is teeny-tiny right now and growing smaller, not larger. As a point of reference, among my (admittedly small) circle of photographer friends, several of whom are former view camera users, I am the only one who isn't satisfied by correcting geometric / perspective distortions during post-processing using software. <shrugs>
Thank you again.

Can you go more in depth into how you use Contax 645 lenses? What's the quality like at 100%? What focal lengths have you tried and can you max out shifts without vignetting?
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
Can you go more in depth into how you use Contax 645 lenses? What's the quality like at 100%? What focal lengths have you tried and can you max out shifts without vignetting?
Sure, no problem.

At the moment, I own the 35/f3.5, 45/f2.8, 55/f3.5, 80/f2, 140/f2.8, and 210/f4 lenses. I use them with the apertures preset (i.e., they're set on another camera and then transferred to whichever camera I'm using) via a dumb Contax 645 -> Canon EOS adapter. (I've been working on controlling their apertures electronically while they are mounted on the camera, as I successfully did with my Contax N lenses using the guts of Kipon's electronic adapter, but have not yet found a solution. I'd hoped using a NAM-1 adapter with the Kipon adapter would do the trick, but the two don't play happily together, so that was a no-go. I also have a Fringer adapter, which does play happily with the NAM-1 adapter, but its guts are not quite so easily removed from the adapter body, so this potential solution is still a work in progress. There are a few other potential solutions available, such as using the Kipon Fuji GFX -> Canon EOS and EOS -> Contax 645 adapters in series [and/or Cambo's standalone Canon E0S lens board with aperture control in series with the Kipon Contax 645 adapter], but both of these solutions will cost more than I'm presently willing to pay, so for now, they're options of the last resort. That said, though, one way or another, I will eventually be able to control the Contax 645 lens apertures without having to remove them from the camera!)

At f8 and focused at infinity, the usable diameter of the image circles these lenses project all range between 75-80mm, which has been plenty for my purposes. (Note that several of these lenses vignette softly, so they actually project image circles that are as much as 25mm larger still, but they get softer past 75-80mm, so it's not always possible to take advantage of this additional image area.) And because these are non-retrofocus, medium-format lenses, located 64mm away from the sensor, there are none of the funky color issues that arise when using lenses that have shorter registration distances and shifting them to the max.

Speaking of which, here are two of the photos I took last week for a neighhbor of their house down the street. I used the 35/f3.5 lens set at f8 and stitched three vertical frames together, using 5mm of rear fall and shifting the outer two frames 15 mm left and right, creating a 79 MB, 10892 x 7261 file with an effective focal length of 22-23 mm after cropping:



I also did an Xpan-format pano (65x24 ratio) by stitching three horizontal frames, using the same 5 mm of rear fall and shifting the outer frames 18 mm left and right, creating a 63 MB, 13187 x 4819 file:



As you can see, the upper corners have started to vignette slightly, so 15-16 mm of left / right shifting is probably the limit in combination with 5 mm of fall. I also cropped it to lose the very farthest ends because I couldn't correct the excessive mustache distortion that was visible. Lastly, note that I processed both of these files for printing, not screen display, so they're slightly oversharpened for this purpose. (If you'd like to see 100% crops from either one, just let me know.)

All in all, I'm very happy with the performance of the Contax 645 lenses using movements with my A7R body. Unfortunately, because of their relatively slow apertures (which makes my nighttime photography more difficult than when using faster lenses, because i can see better with them to compose and focus), I'm only using them occasionally and during daylight, where presetting the apertures usually doesn't cause any issues. I expect I will use them more often once I can control their apertures electronically, but even then, their slow apertures will remain somewhat problematic. <sigh>
 

kbx

New member
Sure, no problem.

At f8 and focused at infinity, the usable diameter of the image circles these lenses project all range between 75-80mm, which has been plenty for my purposes. (Note that several of these lenses vignette softly, so they actually project image circles that are as much as 25mm larger still, but they get softer past 75-80mm, so it's not always possible to take advantage of this additional image area.) And because these are non-retrofocus, medium-format lenses, located 64mm away from the sensor, there are none of the funky color issues that arise when using lenses that have shorter registration distances and shifting them to the max.
Very interesting. I will go for the Actus then, and rummage for some medium format lenses for sure.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
Very interesting. I will go for the Actus then, and rummage for some medium format lenses for sure.
If you want to try before you buy, Capture Integration (and maybe others?) will rent you an Actus setup: https://captureintegration.com/rental-2/rental-list/#cambo

They also rent an EOS lensboard for it, so you can try your existing Canon lenses on it and see how happily, if at all, they play outside of a 43.3mm image circle. :)
 
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