Sony A7 Camera Profiles - Capture One

[craygc]

In the chance others may find this useful, I just wanted to share the outcome of trying to resolve issues (they've been my issues so YMMV) I've had with achieving good B&W conversions in Capture One with the Sony A7II. My objective here has been to try and get a reasonably good replication of B&W film tonality; I was doing ok with Ricoh GR files but just could not achieve similar with the Sony.

I've now concluded that (my) main issue with the Sony has been the colours arising from the camera profiles applied in the RAW converter. With Capture One I now find I'm get closer to a film like tonality - using Silver Efex for conversion - without punchy colours if I apply the Mamiya M31, Outdoor Daylight, Film Standard profile to the Sony RAW. There are slight colour balancing side effects which I find corrects reasonably well with a touch of red in the highlights, a touch of cyan in the shadows, with midtones vary but finding a touch of magenta often seems a good starting point. Attached is an example of the colour difference between the profiles in which no other adjustments have been made.

Interested to hear what others might think...

 

[seb]

May I ask how you white balanced this picture? In my oppinion the first shot looks too magenta (ref: lower left (bag) and right corner (chillis)) and therefore probably too much Kelvin as well.

To your question: Profiles (in any converter) are not very accurate but very robust (=pleasing) for any use. The profiles in C1 are quite saturated if you use strong curvers (like film standard) but are fine with the linear or scientific curves. But pictures looks flat then and need a lot of work to bring a pleasing light back. You may think about creating own profiles, if you want a different starting point for b&w conversions. Lumariver/DCamProf is the best way to do that. But it's difficult and time consuming. The use of profiles that are not made for your camera modell may be a creative idea but are definitely not the right way for a better starting point. The translation through a non-matching profile may end up in unexpectable colors in any area.

Btw: I like the B&W series of that scene on your flickr account.

Indonesia - Balaraja by Craig Cooper, auf Flickr

And I'm looking forward to your findings in this regard.

 

[craygc]

May I ask how you white balanced this picture? In my oppinion the first shot looks too magenta (ref: lower left (bag) and right corner (chillis)) and therefore probably too much Kelvin as well.

Hi Seb,

I agree that there are definitely some white balance and colour balance issues in the original above, although it is just the RAW file with auto COP interpretation and no adjustments. The in-camera white balance was originally set to daylight. This is a rather difficult image to colour correct anyway as there are areas requiring additional blue and some yellow as well as others requiring magenta and others green. I am certainly not trying to pass this off as a "good" colour image using the Mamiya profile but rather a "better" input image to B&W conversion. My primary issue, in comparison to raw images from the GR, has really been about trying to wrangle the colours and saturation to a level where the tonality in a B&W conversion looks "convincing" - and to date, I've had trouble achieving this in a consistent manner with the Sony images.

I did try using linear curves but, as you indicate, they do require a lot of work to get back to a pleasing image. More recently, I have been going back and reworking a lot of my B&W images using the Mamiya profile and, as a generalisation, most of the images I had previously struggled with to achieve a convincing B&W tonality, have suddenly become "well behaved". The possibility of ending up with "unexpected colours" is certainly there but, to a degree, this probably isn't a big issue in a B&W conversion. My initial objective was to uncover why I could achieve consistent "good" B&W conversions from the GR but not the Sony, and it's taken a while before I stopped blaming my abilities and started thinking about the camera profile. Given this definitely appears to be the primary issue, I think something like the Lumariver/DCamProf solution you mentioned is where I will investigate next.

...and I certainly appreciate your comments on the image you linked to.

BTW, you appear to have very good and clean colour balance across your Flickr work...

 

[seb]

Thanks for the last sentence and of course your informative reply.

In the last three years I'm trying to create my own profiles. At the moment I'm quite pleased with them. There is one for each of my most used lenses and they are all made to use with the linear curve. All color transitions especially on skin are much smoother (than with the general profile and a film standard curve). In general the differences from lens to lens are very subtle but it seems to be useful to profile each to get cleaner colors at the end. Especially if you tweak around a lot (what I normally do). That may be the reason that my pictures look good balanced in terms of colors. For the future I'm looking after a new series with stronger curves. Maybe a project for next winter.

Back to your topic: I was pointing at the saturation in my first post because I think this is the biggest issue in your b&w-conversion-approach with the default profiles. That's why the Marmia profile may work. You can also try the "Phase One Effects: No Color Correction" profile. This way you'll get a very unsaturated picture but correct in color transitions.

With lumariver you have the possibility to tweak your profile in any direction like desaturate in general, increasing contrast for certain color ranges or darken certain hues. I have never tried it but it should even be possible to create a b&w profile based on a color shot. On the other hand, it may sound simple to get a good shot of a target to profile your camera afterwards. But it's not. There are a lot of things you can do wrong. Even though you know after what you have to look. And on top of that I advice to use a set of targets and not only the CCPP (which most use). This makes it even more complicated. At the end you'll have a profile with lower dE values than the default profiles but it does not mean it's better.

It would be great if you can show us your final findings here.
Cheers, Seb

Hi Seb,

I agree that there are definitely some white balance and colour balance issues in the original above, although it is just the RAW file with auto COP interpretation and no adjustments. The in-camera white balance was originally set to daylight. This is a rather difficult image to colour correct anyway as there are areas requiring additional blue and some yellow as well as others requiring magenta and others green. I am certainly not trying to pass this off as a "good" colour image using the Mamiya profile but rather a "better" input image to B&W conversion. My primary issue, in comparison to raw images from the GR, has really been about trying to wrangle the colours and saturation to a level where the tonality in a B&W conversion looks "convincing" - and to date, I've had trouble achieving this in a consistent manner with the Sony images.

I did try using linear curves but, as you indicate, they do require a lot of work to get back to a pleasing image. More recently, I have been going back and reworking a lot of my B&W images using the Mamiya profile and, as a generalisation, most of the images I had previously struggled with to achieve a convincing B&W tonality, have suddenly become "well behaved". The possibility of ending up with "unexpected colours" is certainly there but, to a degree, this probably isn't a big issue in a B&W conversion. My initial objective was to uncover why I could achieve consistent "good" B&W conversions from the GR but not the Sony, and it's taken a while before I stopped blaming my abilities and started thinking about the camera profile. Given this definitely appears to be the primary issue, I think something like the Lumariver/DCamProf solution you mentioned is where I will investigate next.

...and I certainly appreciate your comments on the image you linked to.

BTW, you appear to have very good and clean colour balance across your Flickr work...

 

[seb]

I did a short test and took the profile for my voigtländer nokton 40/1.2 and reduced the chromacity in lumariver and created a b&W profile. Here are some comparisons with just the profile as difference.

left processed in C1 to my pleasing (rendered with my own a7RII+ voigtländer nokton 40/1.2-profile) - right the same processing but rendered with the additionally created b&w profile.









Thanks for this idea, I will work a little further on that. I never was a fan of converting to b&w. But with a default profile this sounds interesting.

 

[craygc]

Thanks for the effort on these Seb. I can certainly see where you're going with what you're doing. I can see another big learning curve coming up :banghead:

 

[seb]

Thanks for the effort on these Seb. I can certainly see where you're going with what you're doing. I can see another big learning curve coming up :banghead:

Yes, I'm aware of that pandoras box I put in front of you. I was thinking yesterday evening and this morning if I can get an a7II in my fingers to create some shots of targets and then profile it for you. But there is none available for rent and no friend with one around. But maybe you can try my a7RII (or a7?) profile if you like? We can also have a short chat (here (if otheres are interested in the process) or over PM) for your preferences (like curve, contrast, ...) and may add some adjustements after some use on your side. I can even save the file like an a7II profile. Therefore you don't have to search the profile within other cameras.

It may take a few weeks because I'm in Sweden for June (Midsommar!) but a first attempt can be done on sunday I'm sure. What do you think? It may be enough for you and there is no pressure to get into profiling.

 

[craygc]

Wow, than you for the offer Seb. I think at least starting with your A7RII profile would at least give me a feel for the direction of curves and contrast. I assume you need an email address to send the profile; just my user name here then @yahoo.com.

Craig

Yes, I'm aware of that pandoras box I put in front of you. I was thinking yesterday evening and this morning if I can get an a7II in my fingers to create some shots of targets and then profile it for you. But there is none available for rent and no friend with one around. But maybe you can try my a7RII (or a7?) profile if you like? We can also have a short chat (here (if otheres are interested in the process) or over PM) for your preferences (like curve, contrast, ...) and may add some adjustements after some use on your side. I can even save the file like an a7II profile. Therefore you don't have to search the profile within other cameras.

It may take a few weeks because I'm in Sweden for June (Midsommar!) but a first attempt can be done on sunday I'm sure. What do you think? It may be enough for you and there is no pressure to get into profiling.

 

[seb]

:salute: No matters, I'll enjoy the idea and I think I can learn something about b&w processing on top. To create a profile and save it for another camera is only a click more. Give me some time till sunday (GMT).

Do you prefer "film standard"? This will add quite some work. Because my shots of the targets and profile processing is optimized for "linear curve" only. But it's doable. On the other hand C1 is programmed that profiles can be used with any curve and the differences are subtle. Maybe a profile based on a linear processing is enough for a b&w-film-standard use.

Another Idea of a low chroma profile comes into my mind too. This way you can still use the b&w-conversion options of C1 on top.

Wow, than you for the offer Seb. I think at least starting with your A7RII profile would at least give me a feel for the direction of curves and contrast. I assume you need an email address to send the profile; just my user name here then @yahoo.com.
Craig

 

[craygc]

Hi Seb,

Maybe just try the linear curve version initially. No point doing extra work before baselining the outcome with what already exists.

Do you prefer "film standard"? This will add quite some work. Because my shots of the targets and profile processing is optimized for "linear curve" only. But it's doable. On the other hand C1 is programmed that profiles can be used with any curve and the differences are subtle. Maybe a profile based on a linear processing is enough for a b&w-film-standard use.

Another Idea of a low chroma profile comes into my mind too. This way you can still use the b&w-conversion options of C1 on top.