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Thread: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Seems to be EUR 2,000 without the lens and 2,700 with the 28-75mm f/2.8. That's probably with vat and all, so the dollar price could well be the same, or at least close.

    http://www.fotobrenner.de/default.as...8&MENPRO=3&ES=

    http://www.fotobrenner.de/default.as...5&ARTNR=210296

    http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/a850-fir...opic50664.html

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Well, I will prefer going for an A900 instead..

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    We'll see. That seems odd to me, considering the A900 is going for 2100 GBP on sonystyle.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    It's only a matter of days. The announcement is due this week. Hopefully a couple Zeiss lenses will be announced as well.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Just announced. A850 $2000US body only.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    you can check out the stats at dpr.
    For $2000 you only really loose 2% on the view find and are limited to 3fps. That seems like a great deal to me.

    Aaron

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Drat, all this Sony action is making me wish more than ever that I had hung onto my Minolta lenses when I gave up on film. The 85/1.4 and 200/2.8 were stellar, and the 100/2 was a real sleeper -- it had fabulous "microcontrast" back before the photoblog geeks even knew what microcontrast was.

    There's no real reason for me to switch back from Nikon, since APS-C works better for me than 36x24, and I'm sure the 850's high-ISO noise is no better than the 900's as they use the same sensor. But I always liked the clear-cut control logic and handling of Minolta SLRs, and Sony seems to have inherited their design approach. I still haven't gotten over the feeling that all the controls on my D300 are "backwards" and in the wrong place...

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Don't forget, Ranger 9, that your net high ISO performance of the A850/A900 is still gonna be easily a stop better than your D300, and cropping the APS-C portion of the frame out will still get you a similar magnification/pixel number as the D300...FWIW.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    No Zeiss lenses announced....
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Don't forget, Ranger 9, that your net high ISO performance of the A850/A900 is still gonna be easily a stop better than your D300
    Not sure about that one; DxOMark has them pretty much in a dead heat (although I suppose the Sony would pick up an advantage once I downsampled the images to a size that I realistically use.)

    and cropping the APS-C portion of the frame out will still get you a similar magnification/pixel number as the D300...FWIW.
    Good point. If I still had all my old Minolta glass, and/or if I didn't need to shoot at high ISOs so often, I'd be all over it... especially if I hadn't already invested in a different system.

    That seems to be the recurring problem for Sony, though. They're building out a good product line at highly competitive pricing, and they ought to be very attractive to the first-time DSLR buyer. But they still haven't gone quite far enough to tempt someone like me to go through the trauma of changing systems (again.)

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Ranger 9, you've got to click that "print" tab on the Dxo Mark graph to see the real difference. I own the A700, which is in the same noise ballpark as the D300 (after the v4 firmware,) and the A900 kills it at like viewing/print size.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Ranger, I'm curious as to whether the JPEG in-camera was important to you, and whether you tried UniWB at all? My initial UniWB experiments indicate that this approach kills off the red splotchiness in shadows.
    α900+VG|F20|2xF58|16-35,24-70,135Z|STF|70-400G|50,85 1.4|16,20,28,100M,80-200APO f/2.8|28-135|500f/8|1x-3xMacro|2xMFC-1000|Tiltall+RRS, Bellows, etc.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I'm sure there are ways around all the specific issues I mentioned. The big hangup for me personally is that unless there's an absolutely paramount world-beating advantage, it's just too much of a headache -- and expense -- to switch. (Don't forget it's not just lenses you have to replace, it's also dedicated flash and all the little accessories.)

    If I were starting from scratch, Sony definitely would be a top contender, especially with the range of cameras and price points they have now.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Anybody know where the 28-75mm lens originates from? Is it the old Minolta, or is it based on the Tamron?

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I have been reading that its rebadged from the Tamron.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    That seems to be the recurring problem for Sony, though. They're building out a good product line at highly competitive pricing, and they ought to be very attractive to the first-time DSLR buyer. But they still haven't gone quite far enough to tempt someone like me to go through the trauma of changing systems (again.)
    Hi There
    I turned on a coin - my dealer forced me to take away an A900 with the 24-70 for the afternoon . . 24 hours later the D3 / D700 / 12-24 / 24-70 / 70-200 and some Zeiss ZF lenses had all gone.

    That was last October and I've regretted it for . . . erm . . . not at all.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    imaging-resource.com already has a review up. Not that there's much to review. Except for the speed and viewfinder, it's an A900, but here's the link anyway:

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA850/AA850A.HTM

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I'm gonna go ahead and say that the difference that IR is seeing in the A850 and A900 IQ is more than likely attributed to sample variation and IR's less than perfect testing setups, rather than any real difference between the cameras.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I was wondering if in fact the A850 and A900 are the same cameras - with the A850 having a little masking to cut the viewfinder to 98% and a firmware change to lower the max frame rate to 3fps. After all, why redesign these points when you are already tooled up for the A900?

    Just a thought.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    The A850's parts list was leaked by Sony a few weeks back, and the A850's replacement prism housing was more than $100 US less than the A900's. Same with the PC board.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I was wondering if in fact the A850 and A900 are the same cameras - with the A850 having a little masking to cut the viewfinder to 98% and a firmware change to lower the max frame rate to 3fps. After all, why redesign these points when you are already tooled up for the A900?
    In addition to the prism (a 100%-coverage prism actually has to be a bit larger to allow for tolerances) they also save money on assembly.

    Having 100% viewfinder coverage makes it necessary to adjust the viewfinder mask on each individual camera to get an exact match to the image area of that specific camera. Usually that has to be done by eye/hand, meaning more technicians are needed and the production line runs more slowly. Even that 2% error margin allowed by a 98%-coverage finder is probably enough to allow much more automation of the assembly process.

    The 3fps/5fps difference in frame rates amounts to a 40% reduction in throughput, meaning less buffer is needed and wider tolerances are allowable in the performance of the chips -- again, it's possible to save quite a bit of money that way when spread over a large production run of cameras.

    It sounds to me as if Sony has done a very smart job of spec'ing these cameras to allow them to be sold profitably at a reasonable spread of price points.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    um, the old KM 28-75 is a tamron design anyways.

    ranger_9, since i got my a900 last october, i picked up an 85RS in december and a 200HS in april, so i pretty much picked up ur old line. were you really impressed with the 100/2 given u had the 85/1.4?

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by JimU View Post
    ranger_9, since i got my a900 last october, i picked up an 85RS in december and a 200HS in april, so i pretty much picked up ur old line. were you really impressed with the 100/2 given u had the 85/1.4?
    Of the two, I used the 85/1.4 more, mostly for the maximum aperture -- but the 100/2 has a lot of advantages if you don't need the f/1.4 aperture. For one thing, it's much more compact -- uses 55mm filters instead of 72mm. And although it didn't get sharpness test scores quite as good as the 85's, I recall it as still being quite sharp, and very crisp-looking because of its microcontrast. Ever used one of those old 105/2.5 Nikkors? It's kind of like that, IMO.

    Another worthwhile Minolta lens that seems to be cheap and unloved is the 135/2.8 from the original generation of Maxxum lenses. If you like a slightly longer lens for headshots, it's worth investigating. It's light and compact, and the focus mechanism was internal and slick as a skate wheel, making for very fast AF. It also focuses down to about 1 meter, which is closer than average for ye olde 135/2.8s.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I have one of the 135/2.8 lenses on my A900. I think it has higher microcontrast than the other Minolta lenses I have. There is a crispness to the photos from the 135 that I don't see from my other lenses (I don't have any Zeiss lenses yet, just Minolta ones). I also find the Minolta 28-75/2.8 a really sharp, crisp lens, especially at the long end. If the new Sony 28-75 is based on the Minolta/Tamron version, it won't be a bad thing. I keep thinking I'll get the Zeiss 24-70 at some point, but every time I've seen one, I'm put off by how much bigger and heavier it is than the 28-75. I won't give up the 28-75 for that reason alone, even if I do someday get the Zeiss. The 28-75 is a really nice walking around lens.

    John

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Isn't Sony's market positioning a little strange here? Sure with a lower price tag A850 will sell more than A900, but how much of that market share cannibalizes on A900 market share?
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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Isn't Sony's market positioning a little strange here? Sure with a lower price tag A850 will sell more than A900, but how much of that market share cannibalizes on A900 market share?
    My guess: The A900 probably isn't even being made any longer. Products like these are made in batches, and presumably they have enough in stock to get them through until an A950 or A1000 is launched. The profit for Sony isn't in the bodies but in the lenses. As a relative newbie to the market, what matters is gaining market shares.

    There's a reason why Nikon and Canon are selling their top product for much higher prices; it's the only way to make money in a low volume market. Very simple mathematics. Sony can't afford that luxury. By selling as cheap as possible, they get several advantages:

    - They gain market shares
    - They increase volume, lowering the production price per unit
    - They sell more lenses
    - They gain momentum and create a positive feeling within their organisation
    - Each production run spends less time in the warehouse, lowering capital cost as well as enabling Sony to launch a new model whenever it's ready. (Remember the Olympus E-1? It took ages before Olympus understood that they had to dump the price to make space for a new model.)

    For a photographer who buys cameras at this level, a typical selection of lenses will cost much more than a couple of camera bodies, so the price of those lenses should in theory be more important than the price of the bodies. But the human brain doesn't work that way. It tends to think something like "$1,999.99 for a 24.5MP full frame camera body! Wow, that's a bargain! I'll save $6,000.01 on a D3X. Better buy one before it's too late ."

    All the psychologists, priests, philosophers, bean counters, communication experts etc. at Sony's marketing department probably figured this out before they acquired Konica-Minolta. They also knew that it's a gamble, but selling high-end cameras cheap is one of the smallest gambles of this operation. The cost of setting up production lines, establishing DSLR departments in Sony shops worldwide, advertising, logistics etc. are much more expensive, and without gaining a position in the market, those monies are lost anyway.

    High-end camera bodies is not where the big profits are for Sony, but they need to sell them to position themselves, so that they can sell large volumes of low and mid end cameras. I believe it's a calculated expense.

    Notice another thing:
    While Sony's low-end bodies look very slick, the high-end bodies look much more utilitarian, and even more so than the Canon and Nikon equivalents. I believe that's a marketing decision as well. If the camera looks as "ugly" as the A850/900, it must be a "pro" camera, since professional photographers presumably don't care what their cameras look like, as long as functionality and image quality is great. It's kind of the camera industry's version of a Jeep.

    The guys at Sony know what they are doing, and they will most probably succeed. $1,999.99 for a 24.5MP full frame camera body! Wow, that's a bargain! I'll save $6,000.01 on a D3X. I want one

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    ... and it works. Since an increasing part of my income comes from photography, I need more resolution for studio work. With Nikon, there's only one upgrade that gives enough improvement: the D3X, a camera that costs $7,400 here in Thailand. That's the exact price of two A850 bodies, one ZA 24-70 and one G 70-200. Add a new adapter to the Metz and transmitter for the strobes, and I'm mostly there.

    Conclusion: If I need that kind of resolution, changing system won't cost me a dime, and I still get to keep all my Nikon/Fuji gear if I choose to do so. All thanks to Sony's bargain basement pricing of the A850 body.

    Will Sony worry that I didn't buy an A900 body? Of course not, simply because those who were ready to enter the system at that price point have already done so. Now, they are after those who are a little bit more reluctant, but might make the decision at a lower level.

    And next year, they will launch an A1000 at $5,000 with rotating gyro coffee processor and quadrophonic MP3 player, and guess who'll upgrade

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Good points, Jorgen. Yep Sony isn't new to product positioning.

    Meanwhile, I'm just leaning back and waiting for Sony's strategy to put pressure on the other guys. I'd like to add a Nikon high-res body in a year or two.
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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Good points, Jorgen. Yep Sony isn't new to product positioning.

    Meanwhile, I'm just leaning back and waiting for Sony's strategy to put pressure on the other guys. I'd like to add a Nikon high-res body in a year or two.
    Me too. A D700X with dual card capture like the D300s.

    But a higher ISO Pro level Sony body would trump that

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Jorgen, great points but one guy who is very close to Sony and often under NDA(Carl Garrard of alphamountworld.com), has noted repeatedly that Sony is still producing the a900 and that "it isn't going anywhere". That may only remain true for a year or two but is a far cry from "probably isn't being made any longer".

    Also, FWIW, I would have bought the 900 even if the 850 were available and I don't make my living from photography. It didn't hurt that I already had a few thousand $$ worth of good FF glass.
    α900+VG|F20|2xF58|16-35,24-70,135Z|STF|70-400G|50,85 1.4|16,20,28,100M,80-200APO f/2.8|28-135|500f/8|1x-3xMacro|2xMFC-1000|Tiltall+RRS, Bellows, etc.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Yeah, Sony is the king of market segmentation. It wouldn't surprise me if we see an A800, A850, A900, and A950 all at the same time in the future!

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Anderson View Post
    Jorgen, great points but one guy who is very close to Sony and often under NDA(Carl Garrard of alphamountworld.com), has noted repeatedly that Sony is still producing the a900 and that "it isn't going anywhere". That may only remain true for a year or two but is a far cry from "probably isn't being made any longer".
    Nobody knows except Sony, obviously, but if the Sony cameras are indeed made in batches, and I would be very surprised if anything other than the top sellers are made on a continuous basis, that means that it is not a question of being in production or not, but if they have made enough cameras to last the entire product life. The fact that a camera is a current model, doesn't necessarily mean that it's in production.

    The safest indication that this has happened, is when the model goes on "fire sale", but with the lower priced A850 already in the market, that probably won't happen with the A900. The only way we can find out what the situation is, would be to inspect the factory and the warehouse. I don't think it's likely that we'll be allowed to do that.

    But since the A850 and A900 are probably being manufactured on the same production line, it's very unlikely that they are able to make A900s at all during the introduction of the A850, a camera that must have been in production for several months already to satisfy the initial demand.

    The A700 on the other hand, which is also a current model, is clearly not being made anymore. It's selling here in Thailand for under $1,000 including 7% VAT, and there's no reason to do that unless they want to clear stock.

  33. #33
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    Sony drops the other shoe

    Speaking of new Sonys, I just read the press release on the A550, their new APS-C-size camera.

    For someone like myself, who actually prefers APS-C to 36x24, this is a very interesting new piece of gear!

    It seems that while everyone else is rushing to get onto the HD video bandwagon, Sony is adding well-thought-out features that are both novel and genuinely useful to still photography. The two that caught my attention on the A550 were:

    -- Face detection that works with the phase-detect autofocus system (rather than just off contrast detection), a claimed world's first that means it should actually be fast. From my personal perspective: At last, maybe there's a camera whose AF can tell the difference between the ballerinas and the scenery behind them!

    -- Magnified live view for critical manual focusing, activated by pressing one dedicated button (the feature we all wish our Panasonic G1s had!)

    Consider that the 550 also has an articulated high-resolution LCD, 7-fps shooting speed, and ISO to 12,800 (although noise remains to be seen) and it seems, at least on paper, to seem to stack up favorably against, say, the Nikon D300s... at just over half the price.

    If Nikon and Canon aren't hearing hoofbeats, they should be...
    Last edited by Ranger 9; 29th August 2009 at 21:06.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I'm more interested in the rumored A800 with FF, 16+ mpix Exmor-R sensor, 8fps and ISO's up to 25,600.
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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I'm more interested in the rumored A800 with FF, 16+ mpix Exmor-R sensor, 8fps and ISO's up to 25,600.
    Where are these rumors coming from? Any good sources?

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    PhotoRumors posted those specs. They've been pretty accurate so far.

    http://photorumors.com/2009/08/28/sony-a800-anyone/
    http://photorumors.com/2009/05/31/sony-alpha-800-dslr/
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    Re: Sony drops the other shoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Speaking of new Sonys, I just read the press release on the A550, their new APS-C-size camera.

    For someone like myself, who actually prefers APS-C to 36x24, this is a very interesting new piece of gear!

    It seems that while everyone else is rushing to get onto the HD video bandwagon, Sony is adding well-thought-out features that are both novel and genuinely useful to still photography. The two that caught my attention on the A550 were:

    -- Face detection that works with the phase-detect autofocus system (rather than just off contrast detection), a claimed world's first that means it should actually be fast. From my personal perspective: At last, maybe there's a camera whose AF can tell the difference between the ballerinas and the scenery behind them!

    -- Magnified live view for critical manual focusing, activated by pressing one dedicated button (the feature we all wish our Panasonic G1s had!)

    Consider that the 550 also has an articulated high-resolution LCD, 7-fps shooting speed, and ISO to 12,800 (although noise remains to be seen) and it seems, at least on paper, to seem to stack up favorably against, say, the Nikon D300s... at just over half the price.

    If Nikon and Canon aren't hearing hoofbeats, they should be...
    As a side note to this, if anyone looking to move into a more capable DSLR asks my opinion, I have pretty much stopped chanting the Nikon/Canon mantra and have started recommending Sony. I mean, come on! A 24 meg FF camera for under 2K? Who would've thunk it?

    I'd take care in maligning the D300s however. It's a tank of a well proven little camera, that has quietly moved forward to be a serious body for the wedding and event shooters out there by adding dual card capture. I also would not under-estimate the draw video is starting to have on consumers. It's a feature I couldn't care less about, but a Billion computer savvy, Blackberry/iPhone toting, young parents would beg to differ with me.

    Personally, I'd never go back to a crop frame DSLR from anyone. I anxiously await the true Sony Pro flagship body, and a FF higher ISO version that can compete with a D700 or D5-II in low light, plus some Zeiss fast wide primes. Sony's hook are sunk into me deeply, but to keep them there will take some new stuff on the high end. My hopes are high.

    -Marc

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    PhotoRumors posted those specs. They've been pretty accurate so far.

    http://photorumors.com/2009/08/28/sony-a800-anyone/
    http://photorumors.com/2009/05/31/sony-alpha-800-dslr/
    This looks the perfect backup body for the A850; the A850 is slow, with lots of resolution, the A800 is fast, with less resolution but more reach.

    I have seen some high ISO samples from the A550 btw. Very impressive. Will post the link as soon as I am back home. Apart from that, the camera looks very plasticy, and the the viewfinder, although improved, is not much to write home about. Nice live view though. Third body?

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    I have seen some high ISO samples from the A550 btw. Very impressive. Will post the link as soon as I am back home. Apart from that, the camera looks very plasticy, and the the viewfinder, although improved, is not much to write home about. Nice live view though. Third body?
    Reichman was not impressed with the build quality/viewfinder either....

    http://luminous-landscape.com/review...50-first.shtml

    It is interesting when I was trying to decided if I wanted a second A900 body, I played with an A700. It didn't feel nearly as solid in my hands and when I fired off a couple of shots the mirror/shutter combo (not sure which it is) just didn't feel the same as the A900. Not trying to be a snob (but I guess I am) but I just liked the A900 better. I'm glad the A850 is so similar to the 900 and I sincerely hope that if there is a Sony higher ISO, faster body that it is with the A900/850 type construction.

    Actually, what worries me about Sony a bit is that the high end is so much better than their lower models and that they stay committed at the high end to this quality level.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Apart from that, the camera looks very plasticy, and the the viewfinder, although improved, is not much to write home about. Nice live view though.
    I'm guessing, on theoretical grounds, that Sony's "Quick Live View" (which uses a separate sensor over the eyepiece rather than taking its signal off the main sensor) imposes limits on how good the optical finder can be.

    The Quick Live View feature requires a porroprism (aka "pentamirror") with a movable surface to direct the image either out the eyepiece or into the Quick Live View sensor. Porroprisms have improved a lot over the years, but they still don't provide as bright a view as a solid-glass pentaprism.

    (Old-timers who remember the Ricoh Singlex TLS 401 camera, which had switchable eye-level and top-level eyepieces, will recognize this as an ancestor of the Sony system. The TLS 401 also used a porroprism with a pivoting surface to switch the view directions, and reviewers of the day noted that its finder was noticeably dimmer than other Ricoh models with solid glass prisms. I suspect we're unlikely to see Sony make a 36x24 "nostalgia format" DSLR with Quick Live View for the same reason -- the larger porroprism needed would be proportionally even dimmer than it is on the APS-C-size cameras.)

    Still, giving up some optical-finder quality to get improved live view is going to be a sensible tradeoff for many new-to-DSLR users who likely will use live view more and the optical finder less than those of us who started photography during the film era. As David Kilpatrick pointed out in this Photoclub Alpha article last year:

    They [Sony] have already stated they want to capture the digicam upgrading market, younger users and female users. All come from a background experience where the live view composition on a screen is the only thing they know. They expect to find a DSLR able to do the same.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This looks the perfect backup body for the A850; the A850 is slow, with lots of resolution, the A800 is fast, with less resolution but more reach.
    Yeah it sounds like a wishlist. That doesn't make it real or plausible.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Terry, I wouldn't dwell much on Michael Reicmann's A550 review as an indicator of quality. I asked him about it, and he full on admitted that he hasn't really used any consumer DSLRs lately, so he doesn't know how the camera compares. With all of his complaining about the A550's vf, he didn't realize that it is nearly identical to the latest Rebel. I've handled every Sony DSLR, outside of the new A5xx, and they are certainly comparable in build to the competition...MR just isn't used to cheap cams

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    That photoshopped A800 looks ridiculous. It's just an A900 with a flattened top. Plus, it only shows 9 AF points on the mirror, but it supposedly has 23.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Oh, the A800 there is quite obviously a PS job. I'm just saying the PR(LR & NR) Guy's sources are usually pretty good.
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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    PhotoRumors posted those specs. They've been pretty accurate so far.

    http://photorumors.com/2009/08/28/sony-a800-anyone/
    http://photorumors.com/2009/05/31/sony-alpha-800-dslr/
    Unfortunately, I think this is the camera that a lot of people want, but will never get built.

    Things like a 100% viewfinder AND a pop-up flash just don't jive. As noted by the comments on the page, every feature is an upgrade, except the sensor resolution.

    It seems more logical that a "true" A800 would come with a 95% VF or something to keep costs down for its intended market.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Unfortunately, I think this is the camera that a lot of people want, but will never get built.

    Things like a 100% viewfinder AND a pop-up flash just don't jive.
    Both the D300 and the K7 have 100% viewfinders and pop-up flashes. The 100% viewfinder is much larger than a 98% one. The challenge is the precission.

    Here's the link to the A550 noise samples compared to A700, A900 and Minolta 7D:

    http://www.artaphot.ch/dslrs/201-jpg...0-and-dynax-7d

    and some more samples:

    http://www.lenstip.com/1753-news-Son...le_images.html

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    I think 100% is easily achieved for APS-C format. It doesn't require a large prism like for FF.
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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    Here's the link to the A550 noise samples compared to A700, A900 and Minolta 7D:

    http://www.artaphot.ch/dslrs/201-jpg...0-and-dynax-7d
    Interesting comparison. Other than the comfort factor for those of us who grew up using 35mm cameras, one of the few demonstrable advantages of 36x24 sensors has been that better low-light performance is possible thanks to the larger photosites.

    However, I wonder if the backlit sensor design isn't going to turn out to be a bit of an equalizer...? Smaller photosites, but less obstructed by chip circuitry, might turn out to deliver comparable (or at least nearly comparable) results.

    I've read engineering commentary to the effect that the backlit design inherently would have proportionally less advantage for a larger sensor, since the circuitry covers proportionally less of the photsite to begin with. So 36x24-sensor fans can't necessarily expect scale-up of the backlit design to give them the upper hand again, at least not to the same extent.

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Both the D300 and the K7 have 100% viewfinders and pop-up flashes. The 100% viewfinder is much larger than a 98% one. The challenge is the precission.
    Exactly. As Ed mentioned, those are not FF cameras. Add in AS, and the cost goes up even more.

    As we already know, this drove up the cost of the A900 over the A850, so why would they ever put one on an allegedly "lower" camera, AND wedge in a pop-up flash?

    We all know all "pros" want 100% VF and HATE pop-up flash. Right? That's all we hear at least. And it's us advanced amateurs who want the flash, and couldn't care less about the outer 2-5% of the frame.

    So I didn't say it wasn't doable...they did it in the film 9, after all. It just doesn't align with the mythical placement slot for this vaporware 16mp camera.

    Even if it were real, AND expensive, would the sports shooters who would be its primary market even care about 100% VF?

    Greg

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    Re: Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

    Note another bad feature of the A5XX...1/160 shutter.

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