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Fun With Sony Cameras

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Vivek

Guest
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

F/8 is certainly diffraction territory on the D800E, and I'd be surprised if the A7R were any different. It's eminently usable, but F/5.6 definitely shows more micro-contrast on the D800E.
This isn't about the D800E at all, Ron. :)

Diffraction limit is all about resolution (tangible) and not about micro contrast or OOF characteristics (nebulous).
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

I suppose the Bionz-X processor has enough punch to do adaptive de-convolution sharpening. But as soon as you're using alt glass without an electronic aperture, such sharpening would not be applied, I guess.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

I merely looked at the 35 lux files for f5.6 and f8 on centre and observed that the f8 files have lost detail. Whether that it technically micro contrast or whether it is resolution I ould not say, but it is less good. I have no idea about whether the Sony routines apply to non-native glass but I prefer to do my own deconvolution and I am not too keen on it being baked in for me!

EDIT: I would like to see where in the documentation it is stated that adaptive sharpening is applied to raw files. I also would be fairly certain that it isn't applied to lenses mounted via 'dumb' adaptors. Lastly, however good your deconvolution routines, they can't compensate for diffraction completely.. And given that this is effectively a d800e sensor, give or take a tweak or two, I'd happily bet that diffraction characteristics are very similar, at least on centre. In other words, f4 to 5.6 are peak resolution and by f8 diffraction is noticeable, problematic on many lenses by f11 and frankly, by f22, you might as well not bother...all of which I intend to be comments applying to RAW shooting, since I don't 'do' jpegs.
 
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tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Many thanks for posting these, Tim! Looks like I'll be mounting my Distagon 21 on my A7R ;)

The image of the fallen leaves looks better than I expected, based on the others you took with the 35 lux. Are the corners considerably better when focused closely, or do the OOF edges in this image hide a lot of smearing?
Ron, I couldn't say yet, the corner performance needs more careful lining up on a planar subject before I'd have a view...
 

jonoslack

Active member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

In short, 35 FLE has notable casts but you might get away with it at F5.6, which aperture is the first to also show good edge sharpness. F8 is into diffraction territory. Not a bad result but it won't save this lens from being put of for sale soon: its wary field of focus, also evident in these shots, doesn't suit my style.

The 18mm SE is not a pretty sight on the new Sony: it has strong and complex colour casts that don't settle down enough as you stop down. It also doesn't get near a tight edge until F8. I didn't like this on the M240 and I actively dislike it on the a7R.
They look awful to me - I'd expected the 35 FLE to be alright (whatever it's other sins, it doesn't create colour casts on many cameras. the 18 should be better than some other wides.

Have you tried a 28 'cron Tim?

all the best
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

This isn't about the D800E at all, Ron. :)

Diffraction limit is all about resolution (tangible) and not about micro contrast or OOF characteristics (nebulous).
The laws of physics still apply, circles of confusion are what they are, and diffraction limits on different sensors with identical pixel pitch remain the same.

If the A7R's sensor offers a less convoluted optical path in its toppings (which I expect to be the case), then diffraction limits should be visible even earlier on the A7R than on the D800E (assuming post-processing by the imaging pipeline is identical, which it likely isn't, and I suppose that's your point).
 
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Vivek

Guest
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

I merely looked at the 35 lux files for f5.6 and f8 on centre and observed that the f8 files have lost detail. Whether that it technically micro contrast or whether it is resolution I ould not say, but it is less good. I have no idea about whether the Sony routines apply to non-native glass but I prefer to do my own deconvolution and I am not too keen on it being baked in for me!
It is possible that f/5.6 is the sweet spot for that lens and it is all downhill from there.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Hi Jono,
28 Cron coming up tomorrow plus, if I have time, the 50 lux and nocti and the 90 macro elmar. When I've worked out which ones are 'basically promising' I'll test them in more depth but the 18 is going, and probably the 35 lux, which I have never really liked.
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

It is possible that f/5.6 is the sweet spot for that lens and it is all downhill from there.
That's certainly the case with all lenses I've used on the D800E that are up to the task. F/4.8-5.0 might even be a touch better.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

The laws of physics still apply, circles of confusion are what they are, and diffraction limits on different sensors with identical pixel pitch remain the same.

If the A7R's sensor offers a less convoluted optical path in its toppings (which I expect to be the case), then diffraction limits should be visible even earlier on the A7R than on the D800E (assuming post-processing by the imaging pipeline is identical, which it likely isn't, and I suppose that's your point).
Being someone with a Chemistry background, whenever the "laws of physics" are invoked (especially for CoC which are based on a set of assumptions), I am at a loss. :ROTFL:

Jokes aside, why would you assume there are any similarities in processors or processing between Nikon and Sony? :)

That's certainly the case with all lenses I've used on the D800E that are up to the task. F/4.8-5.0 might even be a touch better.
I have lenses that are diffraction limited wide open and some that are measured to have consistently high resolution at multiple apertures. I will check them out in due course on the A7R.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Hi Jono,
28 Cron coming up tomorrow plus, if I have time, the 50 lux and nocti and the 90 macro elmar. When I've worked out which ones are 'basically promising' I'll test them in more depth but the 18 is going, and probably the 35 lux, which I have never really liked.
I think the 28 'cron is almost the most interesting - I'd expect the WATE to be useable (it's fairly tele centric, and it does work on the NEX).
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Jokes aside, why would you assume there are any similarities in processors or processing between Nikon and Sony? :)
I am not assuming that (see my previous post). I am merely stating that as far as optics are concerned, the sensors of the A7R and the D800E should behave very similarly. I am therefore expecting my experience with different lenses on the D800E to mostly apply to the A7R. But I'm very open to be pleasantly surprised… :)
 
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Vivek

Guest
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Actually, I should not care. I gave up chasing those a long while back. :)

A shot with the Olympus 85/2. The Leica RF is more fascinating to some than the latest and the greatest used for this shot. :eek:


Sony A7R, Olympus F.Zuiko 85/2, f/2, ISO6400
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

I have posted this before (A7 or 7R thread):

Sony Global - Sony Global - Digital Imaging - ?7R
Quote from the above URL (section titled 'Detail reproduction technology and diffraction-reducing technology'):

By taking the aperture setting into account, this technology faithfully restores clarity to points of light and other fine details

Sounds like this only applies to native lenses…

Edit: and I bet the math that goes on is based on the fuzzy concept (pardon the pun) of CoC. ;)
 

algrove

Well-known member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Vivek

Assume you are not cropping the edges of your shots, but all your lenses so far look to perform VERY well on the a7r. Nicely done. At this point have you tried any Leica glass?
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

I have posted this before (A7 or 7R thread):

Sony Global - Sony Global - Digital Imaging - ?7R

My camera shipped with a default of shoot without lens option. :)

Also note that the current FW reads 1.01.
Quote from your reference:
"
Detail reproduction technology and diffraction-reducing technology

Two new technologies contribute to remarkably realistic images and bring out the full depiction performance of α lenses. Detail reproduction technology depicts details more faithfully with a more natural sense of dimension by preventing the overemphasized outlines that plague most digital images. Diffraction-reducing technology suppresses the effects of diffraction, which causes points of light to appear blurred especially at small aperture settings (large F-numbers). By taking the aperture setting into account, this technology faithfully restores clarity to points of light and other fine details: It brings out the potential of the lens, 36-megapixel image sensor and optical low-pass filter-free design so you can enjoy deep focus shooting of landscapes and more with a higher sense of clarity.
"

How do they do that for a lens mounted with an adapter?
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Vivek

Assume you are not cropping the edges of your shots, but all your lenses so far look to perform VERY well on the a7r. Nicely done. At this point have you tried any Leica glass?
Thanks, Lou. :)

No cropping at all (unless it is specifically mentioned)!

I will mount the Summicron-R 50/2 soon. Yes, I have tried Leica glass (swell!) but they aren't R or M.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Thanks, Lou. :)

No cropping at all (unless it is specifically mentioned)!

I will mount the Summicron-R 50/2 soon. Yes, I have tried Leica glass (swell!) but they aren't R or M.
Vivek

I am looking forward to trying out the little 40/2.0 C, 21/2.8 Elmarit-M E60 and a MATE. Maybe older glass works better than new Leica glass excluding perhaps (hope) R glass.
 
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