Site Sponsors
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 151 to 200 of 234

Thread: Spill, Baby, Spill!

  1. #151
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    So, is the US Govt. "responsible" for remediation in this spill and disaster?
    If you look at my previous posts you'll see my thoughts on this.

    The US Govt. is responsible to its people for the caretaking of the resources and protection of lives and environment. It seems that it has failed in some of those responsibilities by lack of enforcement or rules and regulations that it put into place for that purpose. They could have shut BP down until all conditions were in conformance. They still can. But they are also somewhat at fault for permitting operations, sidestepping environmental remediation planning, failing to separate interests of safety and monetary recoveries (MMS), and a whole host of other things they are supposed to be doing to protect us and our environment.
    Yep. This forms the entire basis of my opinion why more government regulation isn't the solution to prevent these sorts of things.

    Bottom line, there really is NOTHING that can completely prevent. After all, risk of human error (no matter which entity the human works for) can only be reduced, not eliminated.

    They have it (oil), we do not, so we have to "play nice" with them also in order to get what we want.
    We have plenty of it, we just have policies that discourage and/or disallow drilling for it...

  2. #152
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Here is some of the latest news on both political and operational fronts:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/us/19spill.html

    On the topic of having plenty of oil, I respectfully disagree. At the rate the US uses oil and the known reserves, plus probable reserves, plus possible reserves are not even close to cover our thirst. There may yet be significant reserves yet to be discovered, but that is going to take a lot of time and money, and operations in areas that are not favorable, environmentally, politically, technically, and socially. Now, if we just want to throw open all areas for exploration, we may gain a few more percent reserves, but nothing close to what we keep using, and even if we went ahead and approved recovery in some of these areas, it will take years and years to fully develop them, and at costs that are going to be much, much higher than we have seen anywhere else to date.

    I am tending to agree that more regulations are not needed as much as enforcing the existing ones properly, and that problem still falls in the government's pervue.

    LJ

    P.S. My discussions here are primarily based on oil discovery and production. Natural gas is a completely different game. There the US has bountiful supplies. The issue with natgas is transportation.....not easy to move around without lots of expensive pipelines to build and maintain. Not easy to store in quantity, so you have to get it to market quickly, or leave it in the ground. Not easily traded on the world market, because of the transportation and storage issues. Now, if we worked on technologies to make better use of natgas in many aspects of energy use, including portable for vehicles, we have a brighter future, but that is not happening at a pace fast enough to help supplant oil. (As an side, BP wanted Amoco because it had the lion's share of natgas reserves and acreage under lease in North America. It saw natgas as a future fuel, and Amoco had access to more of it than any other company outside of the Middle East (where is was looked upon as an annoying by-product for oil production, except in Qatar), and the North Sea, where transportation distances are small in comparison to North America). Just more perspective on some of this stuff.
    Last edited by LJL; 18th May 2010 at 11:03.

  3. #153
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I watched the CBS 60 Minutes interview of Mike Williams tonight. My god......if his account is correct, it feels like much of what I believed about BP is a sham and a lie.

    I didn't think I had any illusions about the company, but now I wonder how deep does the rot really go? How many times have I made silent excuses for BP's safety, environmental and business practices, never admitting to myself that in doing so, I've become part of the problem too? This is really hard to face up to.....I really believed things were different now. Thought the company had changed after the Texas City explosion and the Alaska pipeline spills. This is so much worse. Can't blame Amoco. Can't blame Arco. It's right there in front of me....BP. For 18 years it's been my life.
    I watched it too. and it mirrored many other NPR and other global news agencies that interviewed other past BP employees that "Tried" to bring attention to many tests and inconsistencies that were not adding up, and nothing was done to fix it at all.
    I would say... Yes... BP ignored -- They had the last word after all, not TransOcean.(or whatever the oil rig company is), to keep the cost down... , the red flags and were "hoping" that nothing would happen with their fingers crossed. They lost that bet of course.

  4. #154
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    From the Wall Street Journal today:

    Disaster Plans Lacking at Deep Rigs
    "A huge jolt convulsed an oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico. The pipe down to the well on the ocean floor, more than a mile below, snapped in two. Workers battled a toxic spill.

    That was 2003—seven years before last month's Deepwater Horizon disaster, which killed 11 people and sent crude spewing into the sea. And in 2004, managers of BP PLC, the oil giant involved in both incidents, warned in a trade journal that the company wasn't prepared for the long-term, round-the-clock task of dealing with a deep-sea spill."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...376735052.html

    After reading this article, let's see a show of hands from those who think we should simply leave it to the oil companies to do the right thing here, from both a safety and environmental perspective....ie without any government regulations and rigorous enforcement of those same regulations.

    I don't think the oil companies (BP being a prime example) can protect their own interests in these matters, let alone the interests of the American people.

    I'm getting angrier about this with every passing day.

    Gary

  5. #155
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Gary,
    As I have commented on in several parts of this thread, there is no way any of us should trust the oil companies to "self-police, self-monitor" when it comes to safety, both of people and the environment. That has never been a primary concern for most of them, and until that changes, they need to have lots of independent (truly non-corrupted) watchdogs checking their every move, plus the ability to not just levy seriously high fines, but to shut them down swiftly if needed. I know that may sound harsh, but it may be the only way they will get their priorities straight, with respect to lives and environment.

    And the other interesting piece of news is that several Senators have requested the Justice Department to look into concerns over criminal conduct on the part of BP. The documents they (BP) filed as part of this particular project state they were prepared to deal with any possible problem or disaster, such as a blowout, which they clearly are unable to contain, and have shown difficulty with other similar incidents in the past.

    One thing that this has apparently done is cause some folks in Congress to seriously think about taking a pause with respect to further off-shore exploration and production. However, in none of those comments and suggestions was there any mention of how we should be stressing higher levels of conservation also. They are still not addressing the bigger issue of demand, which ultimately will drive other decisions over how to acquire the supply. They (the lawmakers) are still not getting it.

    O.K., sorry if that last was a bit too political, but it is still the driving force for this sort of disastrous trajectory in energy policy. (Again, not singling out any party or policy, as none of them are without fault or serious shortcomings. One thing for sure.....the "industry" lobbyists, coupled with past individual interests on the part of too many in government, have certainly done a bang up job of putting a lot more at risk than they ever considered. Sad, sad, sad.)

    LJ

  6. #156
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Likewise, it's obvious that government regulation was just as complete a failure.

    With regards to demand, what are you suggesting the lawmakers do? Oil is the fuel that drives the engine of economic growth. That's not going to change just because a lawmaker deems it necessary, unless curbing economic growth is the goal, and if that's the case, we need different lawmakers. (This is in fact what Cap and Trade is all about -- a job and economy killer.)

  7. #157
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Well, a single focus is not going to solve the larger problems. The facts are that we need some seriously expedited activity on alternative fuel options. Yes, oil is a critical component in transportation related use, and that is not going to be switched over anytime soon. However, driving for even higher CAFE standards, permitting more clean diesel and encouraging higher efficiency, clean diesel engines for autos is a start on the conservation side. Eliminating fuel oil heating and electricity generation when natgas or other more renewable sources could be used will also reduce oil consumption (not energy consumption, but more specifically oil, thus keeping more available for transportation based needs). These sorts of things do not have to curb economic growth, but could even be used to stimulate that growth through aggressive programs, tax considerations, new business creation in areas that specifically service these new needs, etc. I am not a politician (thank everybody above, on and below this earth), but it just seems like too many "solutions" are shot down too early, never get support to even be tested, are lost in the sea of "old technologies" that are only protecting old businesses that either need to change or get replaced. All of this is going to cause some pain and disruption, but just putting it off, or "kicking the can down the road" as the phrase goes, is not doing anybody a favor now, or later. We supposedly have the brains and ideas to be creative and productive and inventive, so why are we not seeing more things built and implemented? No need to answer, we all know it is molasses on our electorate that keeps things stuck in yesterday, because it is "easier". Sorry for that rant, but it is more than aggravating to see so many give up or argue against things without even trying, or coming up with alternative solutions. Not aimed at you with that response, but more toward the general politician and pundit community at large. No imagination. No creativity. No spine for progress.

    LJ

  8. #158
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Likewise, it's obvious that government regulation was just as complete a failure.
    It might be good to separate the regulation from the enforcement of those regulations in this case. Maybe update or some new things may need to be added, but more importantly, there needs to be a more rigorous enforcement of the existing regulations. Had proper testing and inspections been done on the critical equipment, things might not have gone from very bad to disaster.

    LJ

  9. #159
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Either way one looks at it, government failed, just as BP/Transocean failed.

    I think I've posted enough examples of how government bureaucracy 'works.' Ironically MMS gave Deepwater a safety award just last year...I have doubts they even have the expertise to properly inspect anything that is thousands of feet below the surface.

    It's difficult to have confidence when MMS can't even seem to keep accurate administrative records...according to the AP story linked earlier "The MMS has had long-standing issues with its data management" going back to the 1990s.

  10. #160
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    And this is why Salazar sort of fell on his sword yesterday and stated the there would be some significant shake-up at MMS. Too little, too late for this disaster, but finally the hot spotlight is getting shined where it needs to be, and should result in some changes, hopefully for the better. I am not ready to toss the baby with the bathwater on all things government just yet. Things are fixable, given proper scrutiny, a willingness to make the changes, and backing by a lot of folks that know things have to change. My fear is the continued caving in by internal folks still on the lobbyist's dole for "protecting" the oil industry, versus protecting the people and resources of the US, for which these folks are in jobs. Your other comment about "need different lawmakers" may be an answer, and that message seems to be resonating in some places. But change just to change does not mean things will be better. I would rather see some of these folks now in jobs grow a spine, shun the lobbyist dole, and start looking out for the interest of the people they serve. I know, wishful dreaming, but maybe if a few heads roll and if several lawmaker positions get turned over, the wake-up call may start to be heard. I remain optimistic.....aggravated, but optimistic.

    LJ

  11. #161
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    From the Wall Street Journal today:

    Disaster Plans Lacking at Deep Rigs
    "A huge jolt convulsed an oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico. The pipe down to the well on the ocean floor, more than a mile below, snapped in two. Workers battled a toxic spill.

    That was 2003—seven years before last month's Deepwater Horizon disaster, which killed 11 people and sent crude spewing into the sea. And in 2004, managers of BP PLC, the oil giant involved in both incidents, warned in a trade journal that the company wasn't prepared for the long-term, round-the-clock task of dealing with a deep-sea spill."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...376735052.html

    After reading this article, let's see a show of hands from those who think we should simply leave it to the oil companies to do the right thing here, from both a safety and environmental perspective....ie without any government regulations and rigorous enforcement of those same regulations.

    I don't think the oil companies (BP being a prime example) can protect their own interests in these matters, let alone the interests of the American people.

    I'm getting angrier about this with every passing day.

    Gary
    +1.... When I saw the spill was heading into the Intracoastal water way.... I was and am still am furious...... I used to live in Ft Laurderdale, FL....

  12. #162
    tokengirl
    Guest

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    +1.... When I saw the spill was heading into the Intracoastal water way.... I was and am still am furious...... I used to live in Ft Laurderdale, FL....
    +2. I am here in Miami awaiting my tar ball delivery.

  13. #163
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Not really sure just how bad it will become.....hoping not bad at all. Tar balls do not form from open water oil slick and deposits, but require contact with the seabed in order to form. It also requires much more severely biodegraded oils and of a higher viscosity than what is now being spewed from the BP well. I only mention this as a glimmer of hope that when stuff does start to arrive from the loop current, it might not be too damaging, since a lot of the oil is still in suspension, has had some dispersants applied already, and has not been in contact with the seabed to pick up sand grains and stuff that help weigh it down to form rolling balls to wash up on the beaches. Not saying it may not happen, but at this point, it may not be as ugly as the heavier oils that spilled from tankers and stuff. And those tar balls that washed up on the beaches in the Keys were NOT from oil from this BP disaster.

    Let's all keep our fingers crossed that they can get this damn thing plugged by this weekend, and then do a lot more serious work removing the oil from the water before everything gets radically changed in the approaching hurricane season.

    LJ

  14. #164
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    last time i went swimming in the surf at santa barbara, 3 years ago, bits of petro got on me, apparently commonplace out there in view of five offshore rigs

  15. #165
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Probably as much of the oil in the water out there is from shipping tankers and boaters as anything else. I am sure some of it is coming from the rigs, but most oil in the water right now (except from a known leak like the BP thing) is coming from boat traffic, plus any fuel that gets dumped by airplanes where they still have to do that sort of thing. The majority of petrochemical derived stuff from oil rigs is mostly related to lubricants used in operations, and not from leaking oil reservoirs. Regardless, it is a dirty business that does pollute in all aspects of finding, recovery and use.

    LJ

    P.S. Might want to add that there is also oil and tar being released directly into the environment from natural deposits, like the stuff in the Santa Barbara area. You can go down the beach and see outcrops of rocks forming the cliffs in some places that have tar beds exposed. Just like the tar pits at La Brea. The stuff does get into the environment naturally also. Again, not defending anything about this BP disaster, just offering up information for folks so they can separate the truth from the hyperbole in much of the news. The situation is bad, but there are some glimmers of hope.
    Last edited by LJL; 20th May 2010 at 06:18.

  16. #166
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Yes, don't forget the Deepwater oil is light crude. As LJ mentioned there are constant natural 'leaks' into the ocean, and oil is in fact a natural biological substance. The oil leak sounds like a lot, but it's actually quite small compared to the volume of the Gulf.

    There seems to be differing opinions as to how it will affect Florida:

    "South Floridians can expect an occasional tar ball to wash ashore, but they probably will never see oil from the recent spill lapping onto beaches," said Florida Emergency Management Director David Halstead.

    "If we look at two weeks in the Florida sun, most of that is going to be evaporated," Halstead said. "There is a possibility you'll see very little of any sheen ever even make it down all the way to the Keys."

    Hopefully he's right.

  17. #167
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!


  18. #168
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    ..and oil is in fact a natural biological substance.

    Robert, Along the same philosophical lines, us human beings, are also part of nature. I actually dislike some doodahs making discourses on "Humans vs Nature" and such.

    Asbestos is a 100% natural material as well. Absolutely harmless as long as it is left untouched where it is.

  19. #169
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Here is a link to NASA and what they are observing (including IR imaging):

    http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/fea...l_gallery.html

  20. #170
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    ....and oil is in fact a natural biological substance.
    Perhaps you meant to say oil (hydrocarbons) are a natural, organic substance....which would be correct.

    Dfn: Any of numerous organic compounds, such as benzene and methane, that contain only carbon and hydrogen.

    I think the usual interpretation of a biological substance is more along the lines of something that is part of a living organism.

    In any case, I don't think we should underestimate the toxicity of hydrocarbons on marine life etc. The oiled birds are only the most dramatic examples.....the impact on plankton and the entire marine food chain could be worse and more long lasting.

    Twenty years after the Exxon Valdez spill, the herring stocks in Prince William Sound have still not returned to pre-spill levels....and it's certainly not from over fishing, the herring fishery was closed for many years after the spill.

    Gary

  21. #171
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    But I have yet to see anyone present any argument (with merit) that shows how *more* regulation would have prevented this....
    Of course, we don't know what the true causes of this accident are yet, but......perhaps this is one example of a requirement that should be put into law (ie a new regulation) and which might have helped to prevent this accident, assuming that the BP, Transocean and Halliburton managers on the rig would have acted on the information accordingly. On the other hand, given what we've heard thus far about their actions in the hours and days preceding the explosion, I know that is a really big IF. Personally, I wouldn't leave them with any discretion in the matter (whether they "feel uncertain" as noted below, might be shaped by how anxious they are to finish the damn job and get on to the next one).

    http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-sp...g_test_of.html

    Quoting from this article:
    "Probert told a Senate committee last week that the cement bond log is "the only test that can really determine the actual effectiveness of the bond between the cement sheets, the formation and the casing itself."

    "According to Probert, government regulators at the Minerals Management Service don't require a well owner like BP to order a cement bond log unless it feels uncertain about any of the earlier tests."

    It would be interesting to know if a test like this is routine practice and required on the offshore oil rigs in Norway operated by Statoil.

    Gary

  22. #172
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Tubac, Arizona
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    BP Accused of Cover Up
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6430AR20100520

    "Scientists analyzing video of the oil gushing from the seabed have pegged the spill's volume at about 70,000 barrels (2.9 million gallons/11 million liters) per day.

    "It's just not working," U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer, who heads the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, told CNN as she watched the BP video. The California Democrat denounced a "cover-up" of the real size of the oil spill.

    U.S. Representative Edward Markey, who requested the footage, was also unimpressed."

    This is just short of an Exxon Valdez oil spill every three days.

  23. #173
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    BP Accused of Cover Up
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6430AR20100520

    "Scientists analyzing video of the oil gushing from the seabed have pegged the spill's volume at about 70,000 barrels (2.9 million gallons/11 million liters) per day.

    "It's just not working," U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer, who heads the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, told CNN as she watched the BP video. The California Democrat denounced a "cover-up" of the real size of the oil spill.

    U.S. Representative Edward Markey, who requested the footage, was also unimpressed."

    This is just short of an Exxon Valdez oil spill every three days.
    I'm so MAD !!!!!
    BP CEOs should go to Federal Prison and throw away the keys!! But, we all know no one will be held accountable except the "Corporation". because that's why it set up as a Corporation, to hold no individual personally accountable for its actions. As I understand it... Correct me if I am wrong..

  24. #174
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    BPs new chairman Carl-Henrik Svanberg did his first public appearance the other day at the Zeistgeist Europe event. Clip here, from a panel discussion with several CEOs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8v2tMJmeg0

    Svanberg is on at the beginning of the clip.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  25. #175
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    I'm so MAD !!!!!
    BP CEOs should go to Federal Prison and throw away the keys!! But, we all know no one will be held accountable except the "Corporation". because that's why it set up as a Corporation, to hold no individual personally accountable for its actions. As I understand it... Correct me if I am wrong..
    I'd like to point out that part of the blame goes to you (and me) as consumer, for not doing enough to curb demand, which leads to oil companies taking too much environmental risk. Sure, you can try to find individual scapegoats, but the whole industry (like most or all industries) is predictably driven by greed and quarterly earnings thinking. What we see now is at some level a consequence of that.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  26. #176
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Tubac, Arizona
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Pretty sad interview imo, Lars. Here we have several clowns saying BP has done a good job, has a good record, is a green company and has not misinformed the public when the exact opposite os the truth. I don't know who they think they're fooling.

    It would seem logical that damage control for a worst case scenario would be in place given the cost of such an event to the environment as well as those who depend on a "clean gulf" for their livelihood. Such is not the case.

    BP has understated the severity of the spill by a factor of 20X, if current estimates are correct. This has the potential to foul beaches, marshes (in short the entire coastline) from Louisiana to Florida and up the Atlantic coast. No oil spill cleanup has ever resulted in recovery exceeding 15% to date, so if you consider that the flow is increasing daily instead of decreasing (the flow under pressure is carrying sand and rock from the formation which acts as a sandblaster to the orifices from which the oil is seeping)... this is a disaster of a magnitude never seen before.

    When the fisheries are destroyed and the beaches in Miami are fouled with sludge... I don't think you'll see these fellows sitting around smiling and saying they're doing their best and it's going to be difficult.

    BP has a long history of ducking regulations and paying the minimal fines for their many violations. There should be serious jail time for all who had a part in allowing this to happen as lives (as well as the marine environment) will suffer for a generation or more.

  27. #177
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Lawrence, not arguing against you here. Except on one point.

    Sending execs to jail won't fix the underlying problem - short-sighted greed. To send a strong signal to the oil industry, shareholders must take the real hit.

    (Not saying I don't believe in greed as a good driving force behind free market. Just saying that there are consequences.)
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  28. #178
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Tubac, Arizona
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Lars,
    We're in agreement on the shareholder issue. I still feel that there has to be some serious disincentive to failing to enact redundancy measures that will prevent this sort of accident. Given the tragic outcome, the penalty has to be so severe that everything humanly possible is done not only to prevent such accidents but to make double sure that there are measures onsite to deal with such accidents. These events only get worse with the passage of time and damage control is too little too late.

    And the argument that some use to justify sloppy precautionary measures (ie: the cost of prevention would result in much higher fuel prices) are nonsense in light of the 6+ billion in quarterly after tax profits BP is making.

    If this sort of catastrophic event is always a possibility in deep water drilling... it shouldn't be done. The cost, as all can see, goes far beyond that of extraction.

  29. #179
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    If the shareholders have any brain cells, they would pull out of BP.

    6+ billions in last year's profit? That is peanuts compared to what they are going to pay for the mess they have created.

    Where would BP's shares then?

    Sure, there will be another company doing this "cost cutting" and the money will migrate there UNLESS no one is able to commit such atrocities in the future.

  30. #180
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    We had a discussion at a dinner tonight about Svanberg's appearance linked to above, and his silence in general since the spill. A possibility that was discussed is that Svanberg is simply trying to distance himself from the whole mess, to induce BP shareholders to replace him. Just a thought.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  31. #181
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Sounds a bit disingenuous, Lars. If is he is one of the "good guys" as you have mentioned, and he has power in the company as CEO, why is he not doing more, rather than just looking to pull a "golden parachute" cord? Not looking to argue or be disrespectful, but he knew going in what responsibilities would be, just as he knew how much he would be compensated. If he feels that expectations from shareholders for profits cannot be met because of this disaster, and he is also not taking more actions to get things under better control, and he maybe wants to distance himself from the mess (as you and friends have guessed), then he should simply resign, give back any bonuses, not seek a forced exit just to get more compensation, and move onto something he may be better able to manage. No offense intended, but if your (and colleagues) conclusions are correct, then he should grow a spine either way.....get the company straightened out, get things under control and cleaned up, or he should just admit he is not the right guy for the job and resign, yielding all those perks he undoubtedly was showered with when he signed on. Simple fairness, and it will really show what he is made of, either way. To use another phrase, it is time for him to "man up" and make some tough calls.

    LJ

  32. #182
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Sounds a bit disingenuous, Lars. If is he is one of the "good guys" as you have mentioned, and he has power in the company as CEO, why is he not doing more, rather than just looking to pull a "golden parachute" cord? Not looking to argue or be disrespectful, but he knew going in what responsibilities would be, just as he knew how much he would be compensated. If he feels that expectations from shareholders for profits cannot be met because of this disaster, and he is also not taking more actions to get things under better control, and he maybe wants to distance himself from the mess (as you and friends have guessed), then he should simply resign, give back any bonuses, not seek a forced exit just to get more compensation, and move onto something he may be better able to manage. No offense intended, but if your (and colleagues) conclusions are correct, then he should grow a spine either way.....get the company straightened out, get things under control and cleaned up, or he should just admit he is not the right guy for the job and resign, yielding all those perks he undoubtedly was showered with when he signed on. Simple fairness, and it will really show what he is made of, either way. To use another phrase, it is time for him to "man up" and make some tough calls.

    LJ
    Svanberg is chairman, not CEO. The responsibility of execution lies with the CEO and it wouldn't be completely surprising if the new chairman in this situation doesn't assume the full responsibility of what is actually the CEO's job - execution.

    Re perks, according to BP Svanberg is paid about £700K annually for his work as chairman. No pocket change, but the CEO is paid some £4M. So it's pretty clear where the big bucks go - and the responsibility that goes with that.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  33. #183
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Lars,
    Sorry for my oversights, but the chairman has the power and responsibility to bring heat down on the CEO and BP's overall performance in this matter. That is sort of why he has this job, to oversee, guide, and help out in any way to protect the shareholders interests, and the company's reputation and continuance. For example, IF (as is strongly suspected) BP has been grossly underestimating and reporting the spill rate, a critical factor in the ultimate settlement determination, he and others are essentially complicit in this ongoing damage to BP's reputation, not just its fudging numbers in an attempt to lessen immediate financial responsibility. If he, and board, are approving of the way things are being handled, shame on them. The actions and inactions are not doing any benefit to company, nor the environment that they are claiming to protect. Their activities now have impact, both immediate and long term on BP's ultimate ability to due business, win future concessions and approvals for operations, and the overall "bankability and trust" of the company, as reflected by share prices. No, he is not directly running things, but the board should be able to mandate how things should be handled (not the details) to better serve the company. So the board could call for the replacement of the present CEO for failure to do more and faster, and to not create a longer term distrust and disinterest in the company's business practices.

    Again, not trying to nit pick on the possible corporate malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance, all of which may be applying in this disaster, but more to question just who is or is not doing positive things to correct things. Remaining silent, or looking to exit because things have gone really bad does not sound courageous right now, does it?

    LJ

  34. #184
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    I heard on the a news program (NBC or MSNBC), That BP could be responsible for even more damages. if more oil than their estimates are discovered. This means that BP is lying with a underlying agenda. And are willing to risk "Contempt of Congress" to save a few bucks... Yes, to them even $100m (or what ever they figured out), is a few bucks! Last Q profit over $6b !!!!!
    So, Does BP KNOW how much oil is already spilled out. (I think they know full well), Scientists can figure this out, and they will. and BP will have to release ALL Documents relating to the spill sooner or later.

  35. #185
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Time for an update from Louisiana, where the the oil is hitting the marshes and islands that are home to pelican and tern nesting grounds.

    http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-sp...le_agains.html

    Gary

  36. #186
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    I heard on the a news program (NBC or MSNBC), That BP could be responsible for even more damages. if more oil than their estimates are discovered. This means that BP is lying with a underlying agenda. And are willing to risk "Contempt of Congress" to save a few bucks... Yes, to them even $100m (or what ever they figured out), is a few bucks! Last Q profit over $6b !!!!!
    So, Does BP KNOW how much oil is already spilled out. (I think they know full well), Scientists can figure this out, and they will. and BP will have to release ALL Documents relating to the spill sooner or later.
    It appears no one seems to have looked at the NASA link I provided.

    What is interesting (to me) was one older aerial image which had been interpreted as "spontaneous" (or "natural") oil expulsion from earth.

    I think BP would argue their way out of the actual quantity in a court (most likely it will be an out of curt settlement).

    However, BP's name is now forever linked with oil spill.

  37. #187
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    This is the best map I've seen of the oil spill with total volume spilled, using various estimates of the flow rate.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...l-tracker.html

  38. #188
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    This is a bit at odds.....regardless of how big "natural" oil spills may have been or continue to be, the disaster in the Gulf in not "natural", but man-induced through whatever final determinations get placed on it. It is something beyond what happens naturally, and should have been prevented and now curtailed. So to argue that worse things happen naturally is a poor point to make, as the environment has to adjust to those natural spills, and adding more burden to a delicate ecosystem when it could have been prevented is horrible. (This is not really any different than the weak arguments about now much "natural" things cause damage to the air and may impact global warming. Fine, they are going to happen, but humans CAN stop adding more problems that need to be cleaned.

    BP may not know just how much oil has been released, but I would bet the price of the clean-up that they know for sure they were significantly underestimating, and that is where the criminal elements come into play. They under-report, or underestimate to try to reduce their potential liability.....penalties and claims are based a lot on the total volume of the spill. So, making it appear to be a whole lot smaller hopefully works to their advantage when it comes time to settle claims. Now, the world knows they are not even close to being correct on the volumes being released, and their own claims were blown out by their misleading volume recovery statements (5,000 bbl/day recovery with an estimated 5,000 bbl/day spill rate, while we all saw the video showing pretty much unabated flow AFTER the recover straw was being used). That is pathetic.

    I know a number of folks that live in the area now being inundated with oil, plus I also know scientists that are doing the monitoring work, and they say the media reports are still way short of just how bad the situation is and will become. I think an interesting and highly ironic situation that could occur would be having the oil get caught in the "loop current", then getting transported by the Gulf Stream to the shore of the UK and Europe. How do you think folks will respond to BP as a global environmental steward then? No need to speculate or answer, and let's hope that tragedy does not occur, but things are not looking good on any front right now.

    And calling this "an accident" is pure b.s.....this could have and should have been prevented. I still feel for the lives lost in the initial explosion, and now for all the lives impacted by this mess, including the environment.

    LJ

  39. #189
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Lars,
    Sorry for my oversights, but the chairman has the power and responsibility to bring heat down on the CEO and BP's overall performance in this matter. That is sort of why he has this job, to oversee, guide, and help out in any way to protect the shareholders interests, and the company's reputation and continuance. For example, IF (as is strongly suspected) BP has been grossly underestimating and reporting the spill rate, a critical factor in the ultimate settlement determination, he and others are essentially complicit in this ongoing damage to BP's reputation, not just its fudging numbers in an attempt to lessen immediate financial responsibility. If he, and board, are approving of the way things are being handled, shame on them. The actions and inactions are not doing any benefit to company, nor the environment that they are claiming to protect. Their activities now have impact, both immediate and long term on BP's ultimate ability to due business, win future concessions and approvals for operations, and the overall "bankability and trust" of the company, as reflected by share prices. No, he is not directly running things, but the board should be able to mandate how things should be handled (not the details) to better serve the company. So the board could call for the replacement of the present CEO for failure to do more and faster, and to not create a longer term distrust and disinterest in the company's business practices.

    Again, not trying to nit pick on the possible corporate malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance, all of which may be applying in this disaster, but more to question just who is or is not doing positive things to correct things. Remaining silent, or looking to exit because things have gone really bad does not sound courageous right now, does it?

    LJ
    Well, as I said we were speculating over dinner what might possibly go through Svanberg's mind. We thought it unlikely - but not impossible - that Svanberg could be looking for an exit. (There were people at the dinner who have worked with him personally at Ericsson.) It's also possible that the CEO has insisted that the chairman is mum to not undermine his position. Sure, he could perhaps have fired the CEO on the spot and basically taken over management, but then he would kill any chances of finding a new qualified CEO. So he's been doing what a chairman should do - for the time being let the CEO manage the business.

    Anyways we do not know what the internal dialog is like, we can guess but it will be some time before we have answers to the questions raised here.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  40. #190
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It appears no one seems to have looked at the NASA link I provided.

    What is interesting (to me) was one older aerial image which had been interpreted as "spontaneous" (or "natural") oil expulsion from earth.

    I think BP would argue their way out of the actual quantity in a court (most likely it will be an out of curt settlement).

    However, BP's name is now forever linked with oil spill.
    Yes, Looked at the link and photos, And passed it on to few people.

    As far "the earth" having a natural expulsion of oil... Maybe...BUT NOT IN THESE Quantities IMO...AND, Is there ANY Other example of this amount of oil "naturally erupting" in history?? I think BP is "Testing" it's "Arguments" with Congress, for future financial damage control IMO.

  41. #191
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    i had looked at the nasa link, found it a bit hard to quantify the impact of the spill from the images...used to the mfdb i guess.

  42. #192
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,416
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    819

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    A few photos from Barataria Bay in Louisiana.

    Cutting corners to save a few million dollars on the cementing job?
    http://www.adn.com/2010/05/23/129129...ook-cheap.html

    Gary

  43. #193
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    A few photos from Barataria Bay in Louisiana.

    Cutting corners to save a few million dollars on the cementing job?


    Gary
    Probably part of the "Closed Door" negotiations with Dick Chaney and the Oil CEO's a few years back

    We'll NEVER know what deals were made that compromised safety.

  44. #194
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    (NECN: Barataria Bay, La.) - Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) said the state will not wait for federal approval to begin building sand barriers to protect the coastline from the Gulf of Mexico oil spill.

    Our government bureaucracy in 'action'

  45. #195
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    It is now on official record that BP employees "Filled out the inspection forms in pencil" and mailed them to MMS, where they wrote in PEN over the BPs Penciled in answers and signed off on the inspections.

    NOW......
    All you that want "The Private" sector to "Self Govern" now have a very vivid REAL TIME account of "Self Governing" with BP in essence, since MMS Did Squat. They were to busy taking bribes!! So, it lays blame at both ends....BUT, And I Mean BUT..... BP did everything they could (w/o a budget) to BUY THEIR SAFETY INSPECTIONS (and they won !!!)... And, a few very corrupt MMS employees took it on... BOTH are to blame... BUT.... IF BP would have NOT gone all out to bribe them, and allowed the required inspections w/o interfering with THEIR JOB to inspect, Maybe, the Repairs needed would have been made... Maybe....(I don't trust BPs core business practices at this point)....
    .....................................
    NOW......
    All you that want "The Private" sector to "Self Govern" now have a very vivid REAL TIME account of "Self Governing" with BP
    ......
    Do YOU STILL want A TOTAL SELF GOVERNING private sector w/o ANY checks and balances to protect YOUR A** YOUR $$$$, and YOUR COUNTRY...... REALLY ????? you do.... Blind and a fool all in one....
    RANT OVER.

    We need a huge change in Corporate Ethics and Government Ethics in What regulation means, and get honest people who don't need Bribes... Pay $1m a year to MMS employees, if that will stop the bribes and keep them on the up & up.

    Oh, now I have done it....
    Last edited by M5-Guy; 25th May 2010 at 17:21. Reason: Corrected MMR to MMS, thanks Monza

  46. #196
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    You mean MMS right?

  47. #197
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    You mean MMS right?
    Thanks, corrected.

  48. #198
    Oxide Blu
    Guest

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post

    ... Is there ANY Other example of this amount of oil "naturally erupting" in history??
    LaBrea tar pits, southern California.

  49. #199
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    LaBrea tar pits, southern California.
    Yes, that was mentioned in post#165 above, but honestly, that is not even close on the scale of what we are seeing in the Gulf right now. The total volumes are significantly different, just as are the nature of the hydrocarbons. The LaBrea tars were already starting out as a heavier, more biodegraded and not as thermally mature oil source, while the lighter crude oil from the Gulf well is capable of spreading much further and thus being far more damaging....a little oil spread far can do a lot of damage, while a lot of thick heavy tar, not spread very much, can also do a lot of damage, but it was over a much smaller area.

    There are "natural" seepages and spills, as noted, but even the biggest on record are not quite of the same scale as this Gulf well is capable of creating or producing. If it is not capped, it could flow oil for decades, and essentially poison a very huge part of the world's ocean and shorelands. Not something any of us would ever want to see or experience. No "natural" seeps had that kind of potential. They usually were contained in a much smaller area, or are shut off naturally because of lowered reservoir pressures and natural plugging of cracks and crevices of seepage. The oil flowing from the Gulf well is under a lot of pressure in the reservoir, and that will not abate anytime soon, even as the gas cap is depleted.

    LJ

  50. #200
    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Camby, Indiana
    Posts
    466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Spill, Baby, Spill!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    LaBrea tar pits, southern California.
    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Yes, that was mentioned in post#165 above, but honestly, that is not even close on the scale of what we are seeing in the Gulf right now. The total volumes are significantly different, just as are the nature of the hydrocarbons. The LaBrea tars were already starting out as a heavier, more biodegraded and not as thermally mature oil source, while the lighter crude oil from the Gulf well is capable of spreading much further and thus being far more damaging....a little oil spread far can do a lot of damage, while a lot of thick heavy tar, not spread very much, can also do a lot of damage, but it was over a much smaller area.

    There are "natural" seepages and spills, as noted, but even the biggest on record are not quite of the same scale as this Gulf well is capable of creating or producing. If it is not capped, it could flow oil for decades, and essentially poison a very huge part of the world's ocean and shorelands. Not something any of us would ever want to see or experience. No "natural" seeps had that kind of potential. They usually were contained in a much smaller area, or are shut off naturally because of lowered reservoir pressures and natural plugging of cracks and crevices of seepage. The oil flowing from the Gulf well is under a lot of pressure in the reservoir, and that will not abate anytime soon, even as the gas cap is depleted.

    LJ
    Thanks for the info....
    Like I Mentioned....NONE on the scale of the Horizon Oil spill.
    I hope you are wrong that THIS ONE can spread across all the major oceans if not capped...I fear this too....the whole ocean eco-system is at risk, which will effect every populated area in the world. from more starvation, to who knows what diseases will come about because of lack of marine life world wide. Worst case scenario of course.... but, now very possible!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •