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Rick Waldroup
New member
Monza, take a quick sip of that "tea" and tell us how you really feel.
Your right-wing nonsense is tiresome, trite, and old. Please, take a dose of reality, okay?
Your right-wing nonsense is tiresome, trite, and old. Please, take a dose of reality, okay?
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Thanks Rick for your friendly post. My posts above are apolitical; they simply state (giving a few examples, even one directly related to the Gulf) how govt has a pretty poor track record. This has nothing to do with politics, as govt incompetence is neither left nor right-- it just is. I could give many more examples...but as there are plenty that are well-known, there is no need. It is pretty simple -- based on that poor record, I don't have confidence that more regulation would have prevented this event.
That said, this is an open topic forum and anyone can post their opinion.
That said, this is an open topic forum and anyone can post their opinion.
bensonga
Well-known member
I understand what you are saying Robert and in some respects, I agree. There are far too many recent cases in which "government" (a term which covers alot of territory) has performed poorly. Where I differ from your view is that instead of losing "faith" that government can ever do anything right, I try to understand what has caused the failure and seek ways to improve it's performance and responsiveness (for example, by reducing the influence of money in our political system). Unlike you, I don't think government is inherently incapable of doing performing well, just as I don't think private industry is incapable of performing it's functions in a responsible way.
I did lose confidence in our government under the Bush/Cheney administration and Republican congress because in my view, they weren't making any effort to do some of the things that I think our government should be doing (such as curbing the worst excesses of private industry and holding them to standards of performance which protect the environment and other public interests).
Bottom line.....if there was NO government regulation of any business activity, I think we would be much, much worse off than we currently are with an imperfect government regulating business activity. I get the sense that you think we'd be just fine. If that's correct, then we have a fundamental difference of world view that no amount of factual evidence either way can resolve. Whereas you have no "faith" in government, for me, faith isn't even part of the equation (I leave that to religious discussions)....it's a question of how to improve the government we have, in conjunction with private industry.
Gary
I did lose confidence in our government under the Bush/Cheney administration and Republican congress because in my view, they weren't making any effort to do some of the things that I think our government should be doing (such as curbing the worst excesses of private industry and holding them to standards of performance which protect the environment and other public interests).
Bottom line.....if there was NO government regulation of any business activity, I think we would be much, much worse off than we currently are with an imperfect government regulating business activity. I get the sense that you think we'd be just fine. If that's correct, then we have a fundamental difference of world view that no amount of factual evidence either way can resolve. Whereas you have no "faith" in government, for me, faith isn't even part of the equation (I leave that to religious discussions)....it's a question of how to improve the government we have, in conjunction with private industry.
Gary
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bensonga
Well-known member
As a BP employee, it's very hard to read a story like this, especially since I do think the company has been making efforts in recent years to improve the safety of it's operations and change the corporate culture....at least, on the surface.
For much of the 1990s the corporate focus was on cutting costs in an effort to improve profitability and ROI, in competition with Exxon and Shell.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/business/09bp.html
Gary
For much of the 1990s the corporate focus was on cutting costs in an effort to improve profitability and ROI, in competition with Exxon and Shell.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/business/09bp.html
Gary
I usually don't participate in threads like this, but I do have a perspective on the subject that differs from some.
If the finger has to be pointed at a "culprit" then we all should consider pointing it at ourselves first.
What government exists, exists because we put them there. Perhaps it all has become so complex and huge, that we can't grasp it anymore. Yes, if we don't like it we can throw the dump switch every so many years ... but is that enough anymore? Perhaps if more people exerted more pressure in the interim, government would be more responsive. But people don't ... they leave it to the next guy ... or bitch about it on the internet to a bunch of other people that also do nothing. The biggest "Political Parties" in the USA are the "Don't Have A Clue Party" ... followed closely by the "Indifferent Party" ... followed by the "Complacent Party". If we act and think like Lemmings, then don't be surprised when we all go over the edge of the cliff as a group ... and that "left wing" or "right wing" won't help you fly either.
Corporations like BP are in it for the money. If they could drill all over Yosemite, and no one cared except a few hippy tree huggers, they would. We are the ones who are gluttons for fossil fuels ... in our cars, and all the plastics we consume, etc.. We want everything to be hunkie-dorie, but won't give up our freedom to consume willy-nilly ... once again, "leave it to the next guy" is the watch word. All most people do in the US is whine about what's happening, and then fire up their Escalade to drive across the street.
My 2¢.
-Marc
I agree with your post for the most part, Gary, although there are so many examples of underperformance with regards to government (at levels from local to federal, regardless of which party is in power) that it is very difficult not to be cynical and jaded. Maybe if there were a better track record of performance I would have a different opinion. There simply is not one single answer called 'government regulation' to every problem.
We spend huge amounts of money on counter terrorism managing 'watch lists' and then simply 'watch' people on those lists board planes...this happened with both the Christmas Day bomber, and the Times Square bomber. It's maddening.
In private enterprise, when management fails, they get fired. In government, it's the same old, same old: claim the 'system worked' in Orwellian fashion.
That said, note that I didn't say that government is 'inherently incapable' what I said was that I doubt that any further regulation would have prevented this accident.
Do we need government regulations? Of course. But let's be realistic, does anyone really think that a government bureaucrat regulator has any technical knowledge of deep Gulf drilling?
And for even more heartache, how about this?
WASHINGTON — Since the Deepwater Horizon oil drilling rig exploded on April 20, the Obama administration has granted oil and gas companies at least 27 exemptions from doing in-depth environmental studies of oil exploration and production in the Gulf of Mexico.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/05/07/93761/despite-spill-feds-still-giving.html
It all comes down to this: how does one go about improving the performance of government bureaucrats? It's appears to be hard enough just to get them to enforce regulations that are already in place. The solution, if there is one, doesn't appear to be related to the ballot box.
We spend huge amounts of money on counter terrorism managing 'watch lists' and then simply 'watch' people on those lists board planes...this happened with both the Christmas Day bomber, and the Times Square bomber. It's maddening.
In private enterprise, when management fails, they get fired. In government, it's the same old, same old: claim the 'system worked' in Orwellian fashion.
That said, note that I didn't say that government is 'inherently incapable' what I said was that I doubt that any further regulation would have prevented this accident.
Do we need government regulations? Of course. But let's be realistic, does anyone really think that a government bureaucrat regulator has any technical knowledge of deep Gulf drilling?
And for even more heartache, how about this?
WASHINGTON — Since the Deepwater Horizon oil drilling rig exploded on April 20, the Obama administration has granted oil and gas companies at least 27 exemptions from doing in-depth environmental studies of oil exploration and production in the Gulf of Mexico.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/05/07/93761/despite-spill-feds-still-giving.html
It all comes down to this: how does one go about improving the performance of government bureaucrats? It's appears to be hard enough just to get them to enforce regulations that are already in place. The solution, if there is one, doesn't appear to be related to the ballot box.
bensonga
Well-known member
First off, I'd like to say that while many of us have strong opinions either way on these topics, I think most of us have done a pretty good job of keeping the discussion on this thread civil and avoided making personal attacks. I'm thankful for that and always try (not always successfully) to understand other people's points of view. I really do think it's important for us as citizens to have informed discussions with each other about the role of government etc.....we've all got a huge stake in what happens either way. I'm also happy that there is a place on this forum where we can have discussions like this with people we've gotten to know thru our shared interest in photography.
The reason the bomber was caught before the plane departed is that each airline is required to transmit it's final boarding manifest to the TSA before the plane departs. The airline did that and an observant TSA government employee doing his/her job well, spotted the guy's name on the manifest and told the airline to hold the plane. That must have happened very quickly, because I wouldn't think the final boarding manifest is complete until just before an airplane leaves the gate.
While not everything went perfectly in this case (ie the FBI lost track of him for 3 hours when he learned thru media reports that they were on his trail).....does it ever? Even in Jack Bauer's world, sometimes things go wrong. From my perspective, it's pretty amazing that within 52 hours our government had figured out who he was and arrested him. I think both the NYPD, the FBI and all of the people working on this case deserve alot of credit for doing a good job.....not to mention the NYC street vendor who spotted the smoking vehicle and alerted the police in the first place.
Gary
Maddening, perhaps, but in the case of the Times Square bomber, my understanding from news reports is that it was the airline which did not check the watch list and allowed the guy to board the plane. Apparently the regulation at that time, for international airlines, said 2 things that are relevant here: 1) they only had to check for updates to the watch list every 24 hours and 2) it was the airline's responsibility to check it. Since then, the regulation has been changed to require they check it every 2 hours. Also, by the end of the year, the responsibility for doing this was scheduled to be transferred from the international carrier to the TSA (as it currently is for domestic carriers)...I don't know if the TSA is making that effective sooner.
The reason the bomber was caught before the plane departed is that each airline is required to transmit it's final boarding manifest to the TSA before the plane departs. The airline did that and an observant TSA government employee doing his/her job well, spotted the guy's name on the manifest and told the airline to hold the plane. That must have happened very quickly, because I wouldn't think the final boarding manifest is complete until just before an airplane leaves the gate.
While not everything went perfectly in this case (ie the FBI lost track of him for 3 hours when he learned thru media reports that they were on his trail).....does it ever? Even in Jack Bauer's world, sometimes things go wrong. From my perspective, it's pretty amazing that within 52 hours our government had figured out who he was and arrested him. I think both the NYPD, the FBI and all of the people working on this case deserve alot of credit for doing a good job.....not to mention the NYC street vendor who spotted the smoking vehicle and alerted the police in the first place.
Gary
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Yes, the after-the-fact work was done well. It's the before-the-fact that is of concern.
"Sources tell CBS News that would-be Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad appeared on a Department of Homeland Security travel lookout list – Traveler Enforcement Compliance System (TECS) – between 1999 and 2008 because he brought approximately $80,000 cash or cash instruments into the United States."
It's reported he made at least a dozen return trips to Pakistan since 99.
And yet, he was given US citizenship...last year!
Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it?
Meanwhile millions of Americans waste hours every day at airports...supposedly for safety reasons...
It's just a matter of time before the good luck becomes bad.
"Sources tell CBS News that would-be Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad appeared on a Department of Homeland Security travel lookout list – Traveler Enforcement Compliance System (TECS) – between 1999 and 2008 because he brought approximately $80,000 cash or cash instruments into the United States."
It's reported he made at least a dozen return trips to Pakistan since 99.
And yet, he was given US citizenship...last year!
Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it?
Meanwhile millions of Americans waste hours every day at airports...supposedly for safety reasons...
It's just a matter of time before the good luck becomes bad.
This pretty much seals the deal on the spill with regards to government regulatory incompetence:
"If U.S. officials had followed up on a 1994 response plan for a major Gulf oil spill, it is possible that the spill could have been kept under control and far from land.
The problem: The federal government did not have a single fire boom on hand. "
http://blog.al.com/live/2010/05/fire_boom_oil_spill_raines.html
"If U.S. officials had followed up on a 1994 response plan for a major Gulf oil spill, it is possible that the spill could have been kept under control and far from land.
The problem: The federal government did not have a single fire boom on hand. "
http://blog.al.com/live/2010/05/fire_boom_oil_spill_raines.html
bensonga
Well-known member
And it begs the question....WHY didn't the government have these booms on hand? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's quite possible that congress did not provide funding or the MMS did not think it was a priority worth paying for, given who was running the show during the late 90s thru 2008.
I'm also a little unclear about where the federal government's responsibility lies and where the oil company's responsibility lies re oil spill response......I had thought it was the oil company's responsibility to provide spill response capability, not just leave it to the government when things go bad.
As usual.....I find myself in agreement with Paul Krugman's op-ed on this subject.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/opinion/10krugman.html?hp
Gary
I'm also a little unclear about where the federal government's responsibility lies and where the oil company's responsibility lies re oil spill response......I had thought it was the oil company's responsibility to provide spill response capability, not just leave it to the government when things go bad.
As usual.....I find myself in agreement with Paul Krugman's op-ed on this subject.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/opinion/10krugman.html?hp
Gary
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Here's an outline I found from the EPA website:
http://www.epa.gov/oem/docs/oil/fss/fss09/dehaven.pdf
The information references things all the way back to LBJ, so I seriously doubt there is anything particular to the Clinton or Bush administrations that has any relevance to the recent spill.
We are witnessing government bureaucracy at its best (or worst, depending on one's viewpoint.)
"Our job basically is to keep the boot on the neck of British Petroleum to carry out the responsibilities they have both under the law and contractually to move forward and stop this spill," Interior Secretary Salazar.
Perhaps he should keep the boot on the neck of the Department of the Interior...but that may require some degree of contortions.
Let's be realistic about this.....both BP and the government have plenty of blame to share for this catastrophe. BP filed a plan that was approved. Then all the worst scenarios came true, and the plan went out the window. The government has the right to step in and take over in situations they deem potentially catastrophic, which they did. Problem is that the government is totally unprepared and mostly incapable of handling this sort of spill. On balance, both are doing what they are expected to do, and neither are fully prepared or capable of meeting the challenge.
From the start, if the government would step in, then it needs to have invested properly in the crews, equipment and speed needed for this type of disaster control. If the responsibility is solely at the hands of the operator (BP and others), then the plans they presented for disaster, recovery and remediation were inadequate in this worst case scenario, yet they were approved by MMS. As I say....plenty of blame to spread around, but that does not make this situation better. Hopefully, as we move forward, everybody will be learning something from this.....companies are to be held accountable and the government has its part to play in properly overseeing drilling and disaster planning and how they will step in if needed. Both failed the test here.
LJ
From the start, if the government would step in, then it needs to have invested properly in the crews, equipment and speed needed for this type of disaster control. If the responsibility is solely at the hands of the operator (BP and others), then the plans they presented for disaster, recovery and remediation were inadequate in this worst case scenario, yet they were approved by MMS. As I say....plenty of blame to spread around, but that does not make this situation better. Hopefully, as we move forward, everybody will be learning something from this.....companies are to be held accountable and the government has its part to play in properly overseeing drilling and disaster planning and how they will step in if needed. Both failed the test here.
LJ
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
Please excuse my naiviety and lack of knowledge. I remember with the New Orleans fiasco Bush got a huge amount of flack for not responding appropriately. Has the government responded better this time? Will the blame be doled out as freely?
V
Vivek
Guest
No one is doing a "heck of a job".
There are many accounts of what has happened or is still going on. In the case of this disaster, the government actually responded quite rapidly. The issue is that their capabilities in this situation are not close to what is needed, so in some sense, their "taking over" the spill has created a bit of a loophole for BP, while also not really getting much done. If the equipment is not available (containment booms, surface skimmers, deep submersibles to cap the leaks), all the Army, Navy, National Guard troops, helicopters, surface ships, etc., are not going to do much good in surface oil spread containment. So, plenty of willingness, not much ability to do much until now, when the oil will actually start reaching the shores.
This is more the entire point. There are regulations, but they are maybe too lax and not enforced enough; there is a lack of an adequate response and containment plan and the qualified personnel and equipment to put it into place rapidly; there are plenty of folks on hand offering help, but maybe not the most organized way of making that assistance useful and effective quickly.
LJ
This is more the entire point. There are regulations, but they are maybe too lax and not enforced enough; there is a lack of an adequate response and containment plan and the qualified personnel and equipment to put it into place rapidly; there are plenty of folks on hand offering help, but maybe not the most organized way of making that assistance useful and effective quickly.
LJ
There are differences with Katrina, of course. An off-shore accident is not under the immediate authority of a state or local government, for one. The govt failures in LA are quite well documented and are still happening even five years later.
In terms of rapid response, I disagree. I'm not sure anything at all was done in a 'rapid' fashion with regards to the spill. It appears it could have been easily contained if the feds had the proper tools at their disposal.
I've made my points here, not sure there is much else to say, other than taxpayers should expect much, much better performance.
In terms of rapid response, I disagree. I'm not sure anything at all was done in a 'rapid' fashion with regards to the spill. It appears it could have been easily contained if the feds had the proper tools at their disposal.
I've made my points here, not sure there is much else to say, other than taxpayers should expect much, much better performance.
This is sort of the point....having the support (tools, personnel, knowledge) at the ready, not just the laws and regulations in place. Not sure what kind of speed you are expecting for this kind of disaster. The Coast Guard was on the scene immediately for search and rescue, plus fireboats to try to contain the fire. The wellhead is a mile below the surface, and nobody knew it was leaking until the fire was out, the rig collapsed, and the oil started to make its way to the surface. Without any gauges working, or gear at the ready, nobody really knew just how much oil was leaking from where, and how much needed to be contained and cleaned up. The feds were onsite the entire time, starting to take over operations, but they lacked both the proper gear and people to do anything more than the well operator was already trying to do, and in some cases, because of their agency and bureaucratic maze, decisions about what to do and how were not coming fast enough, nor was there any real way to implement things more quickly.
Not trying to defend the government, the industry, or any of the parties involved, but some things were just beyond abilities to contain quickly without the gear and people to do this sort of thing at a moment's notice. When hurricanes blow in, most of the production wells are shut down remotely, and fortunately there have been few or no spills resulting from those sorts of natural disasters, so some planning and methods work pretty well. This was a drilling well, in insanely deep water that was being capped to be put into a production stream at a later date. Should it have had more safety measures in place? Probably. Should there have been more tools on hand for immediate disaster recovery? Probably. Should there be a better plan with options and support ready for immediate action? Sure. All of that costs money/support on all sides of the operation. Until that part gets "fixed", we can expect to see this sort of disaster again. If you think about how many wells have been drilled, how much oil and natural gas has been produced, and how few actual major disasters have occurred, it does speak well to how some things have been working, but obviously this latest one is of a scale and complexity that has overcome the conventional planning and recovery tools.
Fixing these problems is going to cost a lot of time and money. That is going to be hard to avoid, especially in a political climate where there are more problems, conflicts, special interests and other things coming "first", yet our use of this sort of resource is not abating. Not a simple problem to solve at all, I do not think.
LJ
bensonga
Well-known member
From what I know, the current response is being done jointly by BP, others in the oil industry and government agencies (Coast Guard and the States etc). I know BP has more than 700 employees working on the spill response. I don't know of any government agency, possibly not even the military, that has the specialized deep sea robotic submersibles and technical expertise/knowlege to handle the undersea operations of trying to get control of the well. The reality is that a spill of this magnitude needs "all hands on deck".
Gary
Gary
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