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Thread: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

  1. #1
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    Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Hi there
    So sad - a few months ago GetDPI was a vibrant community covering all types of digital imaging, from the smallest sensor to the largest, with valuable contributions from interesting people in all the categories. Nowadays, apart from the sterling and fun contributions from the girls, it's only the MF section that is vibrant:
    The Leica M forum has reduced to the occasional grumpy and resigned comment,
    The Nikon forum (which was so good) is rather like the Mary Celeste - everyone having dumped their gear and moved up to MF.
    The 4/3 forum, after a promising start has been subsumed, even the excellent small sensor forum seems to be getting quieter.

    Don't get me wrong, there are interesting contributions everywhere, but vibrant? Not any more.

    Of course, I could always buy into MF and join in the fun . . .

    So, is it just me that feels this way? I do hope so.

    Just this guy you know

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    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Unfortunately I do agree....somethings happened
    Not sure what
    & I do MISS a few people who are no longer here....

    or is it it just like Life
    the ups & downs / Ride those Bumps & Waves
    H

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I think there is a seasonality. It is summertime, people are outside more, vacationing, etc. and spending less time on line. Wait till the weather turns again and I think you will feel a difference. I know it isn't summer everywhere but a big chunk of the community isn't down under.

    Yes, a lot of people have jumped ship to medium format and soon once they get to know their gear we hopefully will be seeing their work.

    I have faith.

    and.....there will surely be some interesting debates as the next batch of camera announcements (like new Nikons) and what Leica brings to Photokina become clear.
    Last edited by Terry; 20th June 2008 at 03:30.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    And when people come back from summer vacation there will be lots of new captures to share from all over the world. I guess it takes years to build up a large forum. But soon we will all meet in the Sunset Bar and celebrate member no. 1000

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I see a difference as well. And, I agree that the change is at least in part, a result of the shift to MF. There's a great deal of new information for the MF acolytes to absorb and some of those threads soon leave me in the dust since I don't have the gear. And with all due respect to those lucky MF'ers (wait, that looks wrong, but you know what I mean) there aren't a lot of photos being posted from them, except the odd test series.

    One thing that hasn't changed and still remains a joy however, is the overall demeanor and good nature of the members. I'm hoping it's just the summer slump too.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by helenhill View Post
    Unfortunately I do agree....somethings happened
    Not sure what
    Spring and summer came. It will pick up in the fall.


    Robert

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Well welcome to summer on the forums , it's pretty much like this everywhere and the main reason for the slow down. No question I see it too . My issue it is a 112 out and going outside is death. Part of it is some folks moved to different sections also and love for there old systems has faded a little. In the case of the M8 it is not new anymore and most comments are just whining to a certain degree, the folks on this forum do not whine much so not much to talk about. Photokinia will bring some new products and new toys to talk about. I would also encourage talking about photography and not just the gear of it.

    As far as people not here , some just come and go. Myself i barely post on LUF anymore and i was very active at one time. That is just natural, also some folks may have decided that being on a civil forum is just not fun and some broke some serious rules too. Life goes on folks and this like any forum is what you make it. Honestly how much energy Jack or I can expand here is also limited by work, family and personal stuff. On another not even if some folks shift to MF you should read the post most of it is about shooting and not just gear so posts are still filled with information. I think folks fall into this trap that if it is not there model of gear than it does not mean much to them, how wrong that is . The gear is meaningless but the techniques on shooting , processing and general talk are valuable for any model. Suggestion visit all the forums and all the threads . i read everything from all the forums and it is not just about your M8 or D300 but about photography. Remember more than any forum out there this is YOUR home and the place that you want to be, you have to expand that and your energy to make it what you want it to be. The more you put out the more you gain in return. Also our workshops go on hold in the summer and we wait for fall like I am waiting for a new baby to deliver , for me i live and die for these workshops. i just love expanding my energy for them and enjoy so much the folks that come, otherwise if i am not doing them it is depressing for me and i am bored. Simple truth, work is work but workshops get my antenna up in a big way and I simply cannot wait for July 17th when in NY to meet a bunch of members and have a fun day together.

    Last comment : this forum is filled with adults and my bet the average age is 45 so there is not a lot of kid stuff going on. But we as adults need to have fun and it is not always easy to do that. There are hundreds of members that DO NOT post but read everything we write. I encourage them to start punching the keyboard because even though you think you have nothing to say , you do and in a big way. Even though you think what you bring to the table is not valued enough than sorry I have to say BS. Whatever you bring has value and this forum is setup so you get no crap for it either. Jack and I can't do it all we need you members as well. I need another espresso
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    And when people come back from summer vacation there will be lots of new captures to share from all over the world. I guess it takes years to build up a large forum. But soon we will all meet in the Sunset Bar and celebrate member no. 1000
    Steen you make a great point we are small by comparison to other sites that took years to build enough members. We only been live for 8 months or so.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    As I was reading this thread, I thought about what Jono and others have said. In another post, I had commented upon how this forum has matured on its own, and very quickly, I might add, thanks to the generous and non-hostile input from so many, both as questions and responses. The MF section has been sucking up a lot of energy, and actually, that is very good, as it also continues to draw in folks from other forums who contribute a lot. This is not unlike what the M8 section went through, which was really sort of the "birth" of this entire forum in a way.

    Like many others have said or thought, the "newness" has gone from that bright and shiny look to what I like to think of as a nice gentle patina. While the fever pitch of exchanges and postings has tapered off a bit, I fully expect a resurgence once the new toys hit the market, and folks get settled into that once again. The really nice thing is that one can peruse threads every couple of days, and not miss too much, and still keep up to speed on lots of stuff from small format through printers through software....you name it.

    So, not trying to sound overly defensive of Guy's comments, nor contrary to the senses that others have posited. I see this as a maturation process. Good or bad, a large part of it has been based on a gear orientation, so when there are few new toys, things will lag. However, there is also a great sharing of images from all sections, and great discussion in each, so that also indicates to me that there is a great foundation.

    Well, back to work I go.....closing out the "spring season" the next week or so has kept me too busy in just one aspect of shooting, but for the next couple of months, I get to start playing with the M8 more, and I always look forward to that, even as I keep lusting and tearing my hair out over which MF camera and back to add to my own kit. If anybody that has not ventured into the MF area much, you will be amazed at the almost bewildering number of options, not just a black or silver M8, and how complicated all of it can become very quickly....not to mention really expensive also. So, that has sucked up a lot of energy for many photogs, and may have left the rest of us feeling a bit left out.....nobody really is.....it is all gear that still must abide by the laws of physics and stuff to get the images. (Trust me, even the really serious MF gearheads and working pros STILL long for a nice pocket camera to carry everywhere, and do look at the other threads to help them decide on things. I know I am at a total loss on figuring some of the smaller camera stuff out myself, since I spend more of my energy and time wrestling with the DSLRs and lusting for MF, but I love seeing the posts by so many.)

    That is my take on things.....time for another espresso and then back to the printer to get some stuff out the door. Keep reading and posting everywhere, please. It is appreciated by a lot more folks than it may seem at times.

    LJ

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Jono,

    You are right, but give it some time. It is summer and many are occupied outside.

    The MF section is booming, because we are like kids with our new toys. Even though I sold my Nikon, I still enjoy reading the Nikon forum. My M8 is getting a new life, since Nikon has gone away (although with a reduced lens lineup as required to fund the MF gear).

    One thing that has been taking a lot of my time recently is lighting. I have been revising and upgrading my lighting for the studio and for locations. However, we don't have a place to talk about that and share experiences. Does a section on lighting interest everyone? How about it Guy? I know that you, Jack, Marc, Irakly, and others could contribute a lot.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Not a bad idea ,we did trim up the forum a little the other day just to organize it better at least as we saw it. But Jack and I will talk about a Lighting forum. It IS all about light

    We do have the gear garage also
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    even though my focus has shifted ( I am mostly a MF'er ) I read almost all of the new posts. seems like there is always a huge interest in small sensor cameras!

    I also spend way too much time on this forum, hardly any on the others (LUF, LL, FM)
    Last edited by jlm; 20th June 2008 at 07:37.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I agree with Ray about considering a lighting section. I know there is one on DPReview, and probably in others as well, but the general toxic nature of some make them unattractive to participate in.

    There appears to be a lot of talent depth here in that area, but it only seeps out occasionally when folks are looking at images for something else. While many smaller format folks or M8 folks may not think about studio lighting very much, nor even fill flash for some things, there is still so much that could be shared and of benefit to all kinds of shooting.

    Ray, you comment about it being summer, and more folks being outside. Well, some of us live in very inhospitable summer climates.....ask Guy about 110-115 heat, or folks like me that live where the temp and humidity are about 95 most of the summer. Not a lot of outdoor shooting except very early morning at best, so doing portraits, products and other stuff INDOORS always sounds more attractive. AND, those same techniques can be carried outdoors for those that have more pleasant weather.

    Yes, there is a lighting workshop coming in September, and yes, it was sort of brought about from the MF crowd as their rigs love having more light for images, but how we use light, natural or added, can make a huge difference in our final shots. Lighting is not terribly exciting to talk about, but there are so many new products and things in that area now also to help the photog. Just a year or so ago there were maybe one or two options for "portable" studio lighting. Now every line has something. Lots to learn about there too.

    (And yes, folks like Marc can make you very envious with his studio shots....MF or other gear.....great product shots for sure.)

    LJ

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Hi Everyone
    Well, at least this discussion reminds us about what is SO GOOD about GetDPI - i.e. civilised discussion without any backbiting.
    Maybe the summer has something to do with it, but I suspect that the mass move to MF has more bearing. Still, that's MY problem, and not anyone else's.
    Great responses all around.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I think the Small Sensor forum really took off initially because of several factors:
    1) Mitch led an exodus from the DPReview Ricoh forum, and a number of us were looking for a place to discuss compacts without brand segregation. Now the newness of finding that place is wearing off a bit.
    2) The GRD II was new and there was little attention to the GX100 in mainstream sites. Now the GX100 is towards the end of the cycle, and the GRD II is approaching mid-cycle (educated guess). Less to talk about them.
    3) Other favorites such as D-LUX, LX, and G9 also nearing replacement. While the M8 isn't likely near replacement, it has been out long enough that it too is less exciting to discuss.

    Overall, I think Photokina and the new gear it brings will bring another wave of increased discussion. In the meanwhile, I'm betting that Jono is going to buy some medium format gear and join in that fun. Any takers ?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Jono really simple bud buy a MF back. LOL

    Honestly and i am dead serious for as much as you enjoy shooting, you should consider it . No 24 MPX Nikon or Canon will match a MF system with DR, Resolution and all the extra benefits of MF. If i was in your shoes . M8 and MF and call it a day. The only thing a D3 buys you is high ISO speed and if you had a P30 Plus extremely good even at ISO 1600 and it is not any bigger than your D3 kit, Trust me i had them side by side. Just something to think about , I would not even mention it if i thought it was not for someone like you and it is cheaper than you think.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    LJ - I live in that same heat with Guy here in Phoenix. About summer, so many people are out doing other things than photography is what I actually meant. (vacations or at the beach/lake, etc... - believe it or not we actually have lakes in AZ also )

    I think a lighting subforum would be really great to not only talk about gear, but to review shots and how they were lit. I would be very interested in seeing photos and then discussing how they were lit or could be lit differently. Some behind the scenes shots showing different lighting concepts would be really great also.

    Relative to other forums, I have a tendency to stay away from many of them even if they have some good information just due to the attitudes that are present. That is one of the reasons why I like it here. 99% of the time we all can talk and learn in a professional manner, without any of the petty stuff that goes on elsewhere.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    I think the Small Sensor forum really took off initially because of several factors:
    1) Mitch led an exodus from the DPReview Ricoh forum, and a number of us were looking for a place to discuss compacts without brand segregation. Now the newness of finding that place is wearing off a bit.
    2) The GRD II was new and there was little attention to the GX100 in mainstream sites. Now the GX100 is towards the end of the cycle, and the GRD II is approaching mid-cycle (educated guess). Less to talk about them.
    3) Other favorites such as D-LUX, LX, and G9 also nearing replacement. While the M8 isn't likely near replacement, it has been out long enough that it too is less exciting to discuss.

    Overall, I think Photokina and the new gear it brings will bring another wave of increased discussion. In the meanwhile, I'm betting that Jono is going to buy some medium format gear and join in that fun. Any takers ?

    Amin you hit the nail on the head there simple is end of life cycle product at the moment. Just look at the M8 over a 1.5 since it came out and not much to talk about that has not already been said a thousand times. For me it is just repeating the same old stuff. Same with the small sensor stuff although new to some folks just nothing really new and exciting yet until Photokinia. The MF section has been here since the beginning but there is new stuff and new people getting involved so that is the hot spot right now. It will move again to another spot when new stuff comes or more rumors which honestly we really don't engage to much in rumor again my point about our average age comes to play here we are adults and rumors are meaningless until we see something. If you guys think there is something we could do please tell us but i think we are doing better than a lot of very popular sites. We always have at least 25 members on all the time and more than 50 guests . I look around and not many sites are doing as nearly as well as us in that dept. and we are a LOT smaller in numbers. Frankly what most don't realize is how good we actually are in this regard. We are kicking the crap out of a very popular site with regard to number of members and guests and there membership is extremely high. We are growing trust me and we are far from being dead. i feel i talk too much and maybe i do but i will NOT let this forum down. That you can count on and Jack feels the same.

    BTW I am glad this came about and not at all upset by any of the comments. I think this is good to talk about even though I feel a little hurt by it. This is our baby and we take a lot of pride in this place and we want it perfect but we also know nothing is perfect and we can't please everyone. Some have left and a few thrown out on there ear because it was warranted but we won't talk about that and just take it in the shorts as we are the bad guys, far from the truth but we accept it as being the owners.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    LJ - I live in that same heat with Guy here in Phoenix. About summer, so many people are out doing other things than photography is what I actually meant. (vacations or at the beach/lake, etc... - believe it or not we actually have lakes in AZ also )

    I think a lighting subforum would be really great to not only talk about gear, but to review shots and how they were lit. I would be very interested in seeing photos and then discussing how they were lit or could be lit differently. Some behind the scenes shots showing different lighting concepts would be really great also.

    Relative to other forums, I have a tendency to stay away from many of them even if they have some good information just due to the attitudes that are present. That is one of the reasons why I like it here. 99% of the time we all can talk and learn in a professional manner, without any of the petty stuff that goes on elsewhere.

    Best,

    Ray
    Ray,
    Got it.....I completely missed the concept of doing something other than photography in your post That being said, those kinds of outings are great places for folks to shoot and test things in a more casual way. (I never leave the house without at least the M8, and I suspect a lot of folks are the same way. It just gets down to doing something with that eclectic collection of shots.)

    On the lighting thing, I agree with you. Does not have to be formal or anything like that, but more focussed on the issues, gear, challenges and outcomes, more from a lighting perspective, and not so much about which camera may be used. (I recently added a lot more to my lighting kit myself, and know it was a lot of work thinking about the parts, their uses, etc.) Knowing how some effects can be achieved with a few simple tools, or very complex set-ups is very helpful. Something as simple as a small reflector that I unfold for some shots has made a world of difference in the final image.

    So, stay out of the too much heat in AZ right now I still have to shoot some stuff over the next couple of weeks in our heat and humugity down here in Houston. Nothing more unpleasant than dripping sweat all over your gear when you are not even moving

    LJ

  20. #20
    asabet
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    If only all of us could have new digital medium format bodies, backs, and lenses...

    "Imagine all the people, shooting H 3 Ds.
    You-hoo you may say I'm a dreamer,
    But I'm not the only one.
    I hope someday I'll join you..."

    Okay back to work Amin .

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    Senior Member Lisa's Avatar
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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I guess I haven't been posting as much as I used to, but then I've said and asked most of what I needed to say and ask, and I don't bother to write unless I think I have something worth reading. I'm still here, though, and still reading almost every day.

    So what's the deal on the hordes moving to medium format? Is it new things available in MF, or people wanting to continuously upgrade, or what? (I've never even thought about MF, since I travel light, and even my Nikon D200 is too heavy for my taste; thus, I've never even looked into the MF forum.) What does one do with MF that a decent 10 MP DSLR can't? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually interested in finding out.

    Lisa

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    I guess I haven't been posting as much as I used to, but then I've said and asked most of what I needed to say and ask, and I don't bother to write unless I think I have something worth reading. I'm still here, though, and still reading almost every day.

    So what's the deal on the hordes moving to medium format? Is it new things available in MF, or people wanting to continuously upgrade, or what? (I've never even thought about MF, since I travel light, and even my Nikon D200 is too heavy for my taste; thus, I've never even looked into the MF forum.) What does one do with MF that a decent 10 MP DSLR can't? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually interested in finding out.

    Lisa
    Lisa,
    Not going to speak for anybody else, but MF is a lot about the total image quality and what can be done with those images. Some of us work for clients that have gotten into a habit of using images for multi-purpose, and that is not always the most effective, nor flattering to our work. I recently had a client take some DSLR images that I had already cropped quite a bit, and turn them into rather large posters for display. Most 10MP files do not hold up all that well in that kind of use, so MF becomes very important to retain quality.

    I really do not think it is about much more than really wanting to get the best image captures one can, both in size, resolution, DR, etc. There are a lot of demands on the gear and the user, so it is not usually as easy an undertaking as picking up a DSLR, which actually CAN do the job most of the time for most folks. Those shooting lots of landscapes, architecture, fine art reproduction, fashion, products and commercial stuff tend to need more in the image quality, and only MF is really delivering that....just as it used to with film compared to SLRs. Nothing really more than that, I do not think.

    LJ

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Lisa,
    I just got a MF back, and it is not that I am upgrading, I am adding on.
    There are four roles for my equipment
    1) P&S pocket camera - lots of good choices, my LX2 does very well there
    2) Travel camera for me it is all about the M8, nothing better
    3) Events and low light That is what the D3 or D300 is for. stuff moves around a lot and in low light
    4) Large prints and heavy cropping capability. That is for the P45+. I expect to use it more with the Horseman for the shift capability especially with "suburban landscape" types of shots. I was happy, but not extremely happy with 30 by 40 prints from the M8. I hope that the MF satisfies that need. I might even try some technical camera work tethered, but that is a TBD item while I am waiting for the money pit to get re-filled. I also have not done studio work for several years, so this is a way back in to it.
    -bob

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Actually, one thing that I find a bit "lacking" here (though I don't mean to use the term harshly) is a forum for display threads without delineation of brand or sensor size. We have the gallery section where people place their images – some for inclusion to a thread, some for sharing – but it feels like a side-line item or a warehouse to me. Again, not wanting to sound harsh (static text doesn't convey tone well).

    I seldom look through the Nikon forum because I don't shoot Nikon gear, but I have seen a thread there in which a number of images were shared and comments exchanged about them. Likewise in the small sensor section and there's one in the Canon area. I think it would be great to have a display section where someone might post a thread of macro shots, in which we'd enjoy macro or close-ups from systems of small sensor to MF and beyond. Someone might start a "share your favorite shot from last weekend" thread, etc. In other words a display area that is more system agnostic.

    I don't see a need to break it into segments like "Street" or "Landscape" or "Macro". The thread heading could do that. But I do think that it would encourage more image posting, comments and encouragement, and camaraderie across sections currently delineated by brand or sensor size.

    I know that Jack and Guy want to keep the forum manageable and clean, and the types of sections will likely go through changes as they learn what works and which areas get little use. Just thought I toss this out to see if others feel it would contribute to a bit more community interaction.

    Best,

    Dale

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Jono really simple bud buy a MF back. LOL

    Honestly and i am dead serious for as much as you enjoy shooting, you should consider it . No 24 MPX Nikon or Canon will match a MF system with DR, Resolution and all the extra benefits of MF. If i was in your shoes . M8 and MF and call it a day. The only thing a D3 buys you is high ISO speed and if you had a P30 Plus extremely good even at ISO 1600 and it is not any bigger than your D3 kit, Trust me i had them side by side. Just something to think about , I would not even mention it if i thought it was not for someone like you and it is cheaper than you think.
    HI Guy
    I know your question was partly flippant, but I'll take it seriously, and, since you ask, I'll tell you why not.

    The reason is simple, there isn't any shooting I do where I really have the time to stop and think, to shoot deliberately - the reason I get my landscapes is because I've climbed through hedges and ditches and got there, the reason the natural close ups work is because I'm shooting with continuous autofocus to take into account that the damn subject is blowing about all over the place. The reason I get employed by the BBC to do radio presenters is because they like the candid work I do in natural lighting - with people moving around fast in changing light.
    Even the still life shots I do indoors are ALL handheld, unarranged and in natural light. The minute I start trying to formalise the situation the life goes out of it. I haven't used a tripod for anything other than testing lenses (which I always do by the way) for at least 2 years.

    The only thing that MF would do for me is to give me better image quality for a much fewer number of shots in a smaller number of situations. I also know myself well enough to know that I just wouldn't take it out with me when I was walking (too heavy to get a representative number of lenses).

    As for just having MF and the M8's - not a chance - I had a church jazz concert to do a couple of weeks ago: I couldn't possibly have set up a tripod in the circumstances, the lighting was dreadful and most of the shoot was done between ISO 5000-6400. If it had been paid, I would simply have refused, but it was for a charity. The pictures were used for local papers and will be used by the conservancy body. The M8 would have been lovely - but I wouldn't have had a prayer! church shots at high ISO

    So, I can't just do with M8 and MF, I need a dSLR - the D300 is no good to me because of the problem with quality zooms at sensible ranges. So I'll have to put up with the D3 until Nikon make a smaller FX camera.

    I was so close to buying the Mamiya (as you did) at around the same time, but I realised that although I really WANTED to go MF, there wasn't a single situation I could think of where it would do anything for me except improve the image quality . . . . and I'm not getting complaints about IQ from the M8 or the D3 - what I want to improve is the IMAGES, not the dynamic range or the resolution. Money isn't the problem, and nor is the size. As for the 'no 24MPX Nikon or Canon will match a MF system' - well, you may be right, but it's tough to write Nikon off before it appears, I think everyone was pretty surprised by the D3 (but not the D300, good as it may be).

    I'm as much of a gearhead as the next person (more than most), but I have to keep telling myself what we all know:

    1. nobody ever liked a photograph BECAUSE the IQ was good
    2. nobody even THINKS about the IQ if the image is fabulous.

    I need the kit which is going to get me the best image, not the best quality image

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Well we decided at the moment to open a Lighting forum as requested. I will do that in a few minutes. As time goes we will make changes and such, we are not perfect believe me and we make some mistakes and such. As we grow we will all evolve. I think something does need to be said though sometimes we have no choice in some decisions that we make, I know they are not popular decisions but one has to remember these decisions are based on the forum at large and not individual and we have to follow our mantra be it someone you like is no longer here that was there decision to not be here. We have to follow what is best overall period. believe me I think i have more people pissed at me for no reason at all but what they believe is true and not really is, not a damn thing I can do or will say about that and unfortunately I can't defend my actions in public and will NOT do that. So i sit here taking the heat when in fact it was not my choice. Hope folks understand what i am saying, my job as one of the owners is to protect you and this forum. It does not come with strawberry's and roses everyday. i have to make hard calls even though not popular or what I want to truly want to do but some truly need to realize there are two sides to every story. We as owners will never tell you the private stories, sorry that is the way it is .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Guy
    I know your question was partly flippant, but I'll take it seriously, and, since you ask, I'll tell you why not.

    The reason is simple, there isn't any shooting I do where I really have the time to stop and think, to shoot deliberately - the reason I get my landscapes is because I've climbed through hedges and ditches and got there, the reason the natural close ups work is because I'm shooting with continuous autofocus to take into account that the damn subject is blowing about all over the place. The reason I get employed by the BBC to do radio presenters is because they like the candid work I do in natural lighting - with people moving around fast in changing light.
    Even the still life shots I do indoors are ALL handheld, unarranged and in natural light. The minute I start trying to formalise the situation the life goes out of it. I haven't used a tripod for anything other than testing lenses (which I always do by the way) for at least 2 years.

    The only thing that MF would do for me is to give me better image quality for a much fewer number of shots in a smaller number of situations. I also know myself well enough to know that I just wouldn't take it out with me when I was walking (too heavy to get a representative number of lenses).

    As for just having MF and the M8's - not a chance - I had a church jazz concert to do a couple of weeks ago: I couldn't possibly have set up a tripod in the circumstances, the lighting was dreadful and most of the shoot was done between ISO 5000-6400. If it had been paid, I would simply have refused, but it was for a charity. The pictures were used for local papers and will be used by the conservancy body. The M8 would have been lovely - but I wouldn't have had a prayer! church shots at high ISO

    So, I can't just do with M8 and MF, I need a dSLR - the D300 is no good to me because of the problem with quality zooms at sensible ranges. So I'll have to put up with the D3 until Nikon make a smaller FX camera.

    I was so close to buying the Mamiya (as you did) at around the same time, but I realised that although I really WANTED to go MF, there wasn't a single situation I could think of where it would do anything for me except improve the image quality . . . . and I'm not getting complaints about IQ from the M8 or the D3 - what I want to improve is the IMAGES, not the dynamic range or the resolution. Money isn't the problem, and nor is the size. As for the 'no 24MPX Nikon or Canon will match a MF system' - well, you may be right, but it's tough to write Nikon off before it appears, I think everyone was pretty surprised by the D3 (but not the D300, good as it may be).

    I'm as much of a gearhead as the next person (more than most), but I have to keep telling myself what we all know:

    1. nobody ever liked a photograph BECAUSE the IQ was good
    2. nobody even THINKS about the IQ if the image is fabulous.

    I need the kit which is going to get me the best image, not the best quality image
    Completely understand all that you said . Just wanted you to think about things. Folks need to run what you just said in there heads and make smart calls. Too many times people buy stuff because Joe has one but what they don't realize is Joe has a completely different need or want. Hell just take me for example I have a need for MF because i do not know what a client will do with my files. i work on buy outs with corporate clients. I have no restrictions to size or media and i have been embarrassed once to often when they take something outside the file comfort zone. I simply can't have that happen and trust me sold stuff I did not want to sell to make this not happen anymore to me, some of it is back but i had to find a way to solve this issue fast or i would loss some very good paying clients. We all have to make good decisions on need and not always the wants
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I think MF is the perfect evolution for digital. I can understand the allure. I say that because of my twisted path up until now. Back in the 70s and 80s, MF and Large format held legitimate places in the photographic landscape and it wasn't just for the Madison Avenue Pros. I shot 4x5 for years and have owned several view cameras. I could somehow afford to do that with film cameras—even though it has always been a pricey move to go to a larger format, just not as pricey as it seems now.

    Honestly, when I came back to Photography 2 years ago and discovered that everybody (or nearly) was shooting with what I thought at the time was "35 mm" digital, I was shocked! A 30"x40" print from a 35? No way! But some were doing it. And now a lot of those folks seem to have realized that the next step involves a larger sensor. Makes sense to me.

    After you make the transition from film to digital, get your system set up with software, your monitor calibrated, your file system setup and start shooting/collecting/processing images, you start to get beyond the wide-eyed wonder and begin to wish for just a little more. A little more DR, a little more sharpness, a little more depth. And you start to see why a MF system would be really sweet for some things.

    One other tidbit that I think is something of a factor and that's the huge amount of images that get posted online that never, ever get printed or enlarged beyond 750px x 600px (or whatever your favorite posting size is). If online usage is all that's required, it might be difficult to see any difference between files from a Sigma DP1 and any MF system.

    Ultimately, I'm glad the group here is boldly going where I can only hope to go, because when/if I do, this is probably one of the easiest and smartest groups to be a part of. Lots of good info by guys breaking new territory. And yes, it may have put off some folks since it seems like all the attention is there. But I bet it will level out.

    In the meantime, post more pictures! I learn as much from what others shoot, regardless of the format, as I do from the more technical posts.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Completely understand all that you said . Just wanted you to think about things.
    As you can see, I really have thought about it! Thought about it so hard that I've actually talked myself out of a new toy that I wanted!
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Folks need to run what you just said in there heads and make smart calls. Too many times people buy stuff because Joe has one but what they don't realize is Joe has a completely different need or want. Hell just take me for example I have a need for MF because i do not know what a client will do with my files. i work on buy outs with corporate clients. I have no restrictions to size or media and i have been embarrassed once to often when they take something outside the file comfort zone. I simply can't have that happen and trust me sold stuff I did not want to sell to make this not happen anymore to me, some of it is back but i had to find a way to solve this issue fast or i would loss some very good paying clients. We all have to make good decisions on need and not always the wants
    Of course - and I'd really like to use MF for my landscape work, but I know how I get my landscapes, and I know that I wouldn't be there to get them!
    (or else I wouldn't have the mf gear with me).

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    I think MF is the perfect evolution for digital. I can understand the allure. I say that because of my twisted path up until now. Back in the 70s and 80s, MF and Large format held legitimate places in the photographic landscape and it wasn't just for the Madison Avenue Pros. I shot 4x5 for years and have owned several view cameras. I could somehow afford to do that with film cameras—even though it has always been a pricey move to go to a larger format, just not as pricey as it seems now.

    Honestly, when I came back to Photography 2 years ago and discovered that everybody (or nearly) was shooting with what I thought at the time was "35 mm" digital, I was shocked! A 30"x40" print from a 35? No way! But some were doing it. And now a lot of those folks seem to have realized that the next step involves a larger sensor. Makes sense to me.

    After you make the transition from film to digital, get your system set up with software, your monitor calibrated, your file system setup and start shooting/collecting/processing images, you start to get beyond the wide-eyed wonder and begin to wish for just a little more. A little more DR, a little more sharpness, a little more depth. And you start to see why a MF system would be really sweet for some things.

    One other tidbit that I think is something of a factor and that's the huge amount of images that get posted online that never, ever get printed or enlarged beyond 750px x 600px (or whatever your favorite posting size is). If online usage is all that's required, it might be difficult to see any difference between files from a Sigma DP1 and any MF system.

    Ultimately, I'm glad the group here is boldly going where I can only hope to go, because when/if I do, this is probably one of the easiest and smartest groups to be a part of. Lots of good info by guys breaking new territory. And yes, it may have put off some folks since it seems like all the attention is there. But I bet it will level out.

    In the meantime, post more pictures! I learn as much from what others shoot, regardless of the format, as I do from the more technical posts.

    Best post today Tim. Very very well said. Folks do not be put off by MF learn about it and gain knowledge from it. Some of the best shooters just happen to live there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Thumbs up Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Actually, one thing that I find a bit "lacking" here (though I don't mean to use the term harshly) is a forum for display threads without delineation of brand or sensor size. We have the gallery section where people place their images – some for inclusion to a thread, some for sharing – but it feels like a side-line item or a warehouse to me. Again, not wanting to sound harsh (static text doesn't convey tone well).
    I quite agree Dale
    An excellent idea - a 'themes' forum. Those threads work so well here, and it would be nice to have some threads where everyone was contributing pictures.

    Guy GUY GUUUYYYYYY ! (are you listening)

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Your killing me . LOL

    Okay get a list going and we have to see what Jack thinks. I'm the push over here

    The problem is everything on one page without too much scrolling. I may have to take out a row of images on the front page
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Question we almost did this yesterday but refrained, merge the R and M and just have Leica. We have just Nikon , Canon. There is not a lot of room to consolidate and expand at the same time with trying to keep the front page from being a busy mess
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    I think MF is the perfect evolution for digital.

    snip

    "35 mm" digital, I was shocked! A 30"x40" print from a 35? No way! But some were doing it. And now a lot of those folks seem to have realized that the next step involves a larger sensor. Makes sense to me.
    Well, I think I disagree pretty radically; certainly, it's already possible to get much larger quality prints from 35mm digital than it ever was with film, however, right now, bigger sensors are the answer. Guy and Jack, and other professionals who need BIG FILES NOW would be mad not to use it.

    BUT when you look at what's being achieved with those teeny weeny sensors in cameras like the GRD II, and you look at the difference in size between those and 35mm, and when you realise that current quality lens design will resolve a great deal more than we currently get, and when you think how fast sensor development is currently going. I think the future is in smaller sensors, because I'm pretty certain that the issues with DR and noise will be solved convincingly during the next few years (look at the leap forward the D3 represents in those fields).

    The research dollars are going to go where the biggest market is, and that's in 35mm and smaller sensors. It isn't going to be long before Nikon or Canon (or Sony) are going to have 36mp FF sensors with good DR and noise, and with high quality zooms to go with them for sensible money. At that point there are going to be a lot of photographers who no longer need to make that MF investment, which will increase the price differential.

    To my mind, the point at which you can get a great A0 (34"X46") sized print from a 35mm sensor is not far away, and when it IS here, then the argument for spending all those bucks on MF are going to be pretty hard to qualify (except for gearheads like me of course!)

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Amen, Tim. i completely agree.
    I might add this:
    my last excursions into fine art photography involved large format and I welcomed the slow shooting, considered framing, etc, and felt a good day was bringing home five or six 4x5 negs. one of the things I like about being a MF'er is it is conducive to that method of shooting, both in time taken and not having to peep through a tiny hole to see your shot
    also with Dale's idea: one main spot to post images, brand no-matter.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Question we almost did this yesterday but refrained, merge the R and M and just have Leica. We have just Nikon , Canon. There is not a lot of room to consolidate and expand at the same time with trying to keep the front page from being a busy mess
    Sounds pretty sensible.
    of course, I should have said jack Jack JACK JAAAAACCCCKKKK as well!

    . . . . but then Guy, I knew you were the pushover

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I am the pushover
    so

    landscape and travel
    people
    macro and wildlife
    street
    Product
    architecture
    sports and fun


    I don't know , you guys tell me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    If up to me merge Leica sections R and M take destinations hot spots and put into new landscape and travel into a new Section called Themes. I would also have to lose a row of random images 9 instead of 12 to make up for space.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Guy, I wasn't even suggesting controlled themes yet. I mean not a section for each. I was suggesting a display/share section where the original poster of any thread would set the tone of that thread.

    I expect that it may grow into a need for what you've outlined, but I was trying to take a small step first, since the forum is still rather intimate in size.

    If you have room and are ready for sections, then that's great. In any case, there is a lot that can be learned by looking at images posted by others, especially if folks include a little info about the shot.

    Cheers.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I am the pushover
    so

    landscape and travel
    people
    macro and wildlife
    street
    Product
    architecture
    sports and fun


    I don't know , you guys tell me
    HI Guy
    No - I agree with Dale - just one forum for photo threads - the themes can go in the forum - so you have a themes forum
    someone starts a thread on cuttlefish bones, or street photography, or whatever, and then people can chip in shots from all sorts of different cameras.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    So just start a photo themes forum like I just did with lighting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Than I would just merge Leica and that would take that slot without doing anything else. Okay i think i got it now
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Interesting about the photo threads....I have so many cameras I can usually post anywhere. I know we ran into where should we post when we were in San Juan because there were so many different brands being used....however, I find that I like to look at all the different forums. I learn things about photography in the Canon and 4/3rds forum but that is just me.

    Perhaps leave the threads "fun with Nikon", "fun with M8", etc. where they are but making a forum where anyone can serve up a topic.....Post your best lightning shot, rainbow, street, etc. I will give this more thought and try to articulate why on LUF I never went to the image sections.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    I know that is my worry Terry . I never went there and did not believe in not posting images in threads , one reason this place was born was for that reason. i like images everywhere myself. I don't want to look for them

    The fun with X camera will not go away . Love those threads
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Guy, I was thinking of a kind of "shared images" or "recent results" or "recent work" kind of section. And yes, the OP would set the tone of a particular thread. Maybe it would just be her/his results from something s/he was working on. Maybe someone would want to start a thread where others would be encouraged to post images of "people at work"; or "Show your best wedding shot" or whatever.

    I was hoping to keep it simple for you guys, while hopefully removing some of the separation that I was feeling among the sections.

    It's all good...

    Edit to add: I agree with Terry et al, the photo threads in the sections are great too. They work because they are specific to a brand, or even a brand's lens. But there a lots of ways to share seascapes, or macros or whatever which could come from any and all of the members.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    boo hoo. where would my somewhat abstract navy yard stuff go?

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    boo hoo. where would my somewhat abstract navy yard stuff go?
    After we get these new sections locked in, we're going to hit Guy up for "All Navy Yard, All the Time" section!!


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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Well we do encourage to post anywhere and I mean anywhere. You can put MF shots in a Nikon thread or anything you want really no one here will stop that. I do it all the time. I think folks set up there threads to be specifically in a Nikon thread with Nikon lens, This is what folks are used to doing but they don't have too. We are very open about that stuff. I really have no issue if someone starts a macro thread in the Nikon section and someone posts some macro M8 shots in there. maybe folks feel they can't do that, I don't know but they can . No handcuffs from me, we are a open forum and really the only rule is respect each other. Other than that you can do what you want pretty much. But i do understand what you are saying. Now we do have a gallery section and could even start image threads there I think. We would have to make some back end changes so all could post to a gallery of images. Something jack has to figure out so not sure
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    After we get these new sections locked in, we're going to hit Guy up for "All Navy Yard, All the Time" section!!

    make a special section for all Armed forces images.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sad about GetDpi (a personal lament)

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    boo hoo. where would my somewhat abstract navy yard stuff go?
    I'm not sure what others are envisioning, but I am thinking that you would start a thread to show some of your great images from the navy yard. Or you might choose to add them to an existing thread where they might "fit" for any number of reasons, i.e. an "abstract" thread, an "industrial shots" thread, etc.

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