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Thread: Spam and the B&S board

  1. #1
    Super Duper
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    Spam and the B&S board

    As suggested by Jack to take to the Sunset Bar..

    Should blatantly obvious spam have any place in the B&S board?

    Should we allow even a small stink ruin the incredible ambience of this forum?

    When a first time poster offers a new and popular camera at a third of its price the only possible conclusion is that this is a criminal attempt to con someone out of their money. I have to admit to being mystified as to why this criminal spam post was not deleted and it seems all the other responders are also. Buyer beware does not seem to cover the harbouring of con men. Does the B&S really have to lower itself to the level of craigslist?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    It seems to me that there are two issues here:

    Should the mods remove posts that offer items for sale at prices that cast doubt on the legitimacy of the offer?

    What are the limits of responses to the original post?

    I think that it is unfair to expect the mods to judge the legitimacy of offers to sell. To do so shifts the burden of evaluating sales offers from prospective buyers to the mods. If that happened, and a seller defrauded a buyer, wouldn't the mods be liable? I think it's reasonable that they want to avoid that happening.

    As to question two, I think that some response by other members should be permitted. As I recall, the first follow up post asked for photos and a track record elsewhere due to the seller's new member status and the low price of the offering. But I think it's a bit over the line to call someone a crook based on a single ad by a new member.

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    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    I do agree with the postibgs remarkibg that we have a good community here and that people watch out for each other, but on reflection, it is probably not feasible for the mods to delete"spam" simply because it may be hard to tell. The low price, for example, certainly could be a tipoff but in the example we have been discussing the poster could just as well have offered the camera for $2500. That could result in an even bigger loss for the victim. So to me price alone isn't enough. However, I am in complete agreement that posting on B&S should not be permissible for a member with fewer than x number of posts, where x is high enough to deter thieves, or alternatively (and maybe even better) you have to be a member for 30 days before you can post to sell. Buying of course should have no restrictions.
    Alan

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Well said Stephen....
    The second post on the thread did indeed ask for pictures and was fine. My follow up post also had a number of other questions of the sort that people can ask. Finally as Jack and Guy mention....everyone has the opportunity to send PMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    It seems to me that there are two issues here:

    Should the mods remove posts that offer items for sale at prices that cast doubt on the legitimacy of the offer?

    What are the limits of responses to the original post?

    I think that it is unfair to expect the mods to judge the legitimacy of offers to sell. To do so shifts the burden of evaluating sales offers from prospective buyers to the mods. If that happened, and a seller defrauded a buyer, wouldn't the mods be liable? I think it's reasonable that they want to avoid that happening.

    As to question two, I think that some response by other members should be permitted. As I recall, the first follow up post asked for photos and a track record elsewhere due to the seller's new member status and the low price of the offering. But I think it's a bit over the line to call someone a crook based on a single ad by a new member.

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    $850 for a new 5DII isn't a low price, it's a red warning flashing lights price and I'd say it's impossible that it's in any way legitimate. I agree with your argument Stephen but can not see any way that it could be applied in such an exaggerated case.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Like it or not our little home here isn't all that little any more.

    I endorse the idea of a "cooling" period from joining to being able to post an offer on the B&S. The other thing that gets my knickers in a bind is folks who join only to post a sale item; that in itself raises my own personal red flag and feel it does little to add to the community.

    Okay I've said it and will step off the soapbox now..
    Don Libby
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    It seems to me that there are two issues here:

    Should the mods remove posts that offer items for sale at prices that cast doubt on the legitimacy of the offer?

    What are the limits of responses to the original post?

    I think that it is unfair to expect the mods to judge the legitimacy of offers to sell. To do so shifts the burden of evaluating sales offers from prospective buyers to the mods. If that happened, and a seller defrauded a buyer, wouldn't the mods be liable? I think it's reasonable that they want to avoid that happening.

    As to question two, I think that some response by other members should be permitted. As I recall, the first follow up post asked for photos and a track record elsewhere due to the seller's new member status and the low price of the offering. But I think it's a bit over the line to call someone a crook based on a single ad by a new member.
    Well said and honestly a price of $850.00 instead a of a more normal price like 1850.00 could also be a simple slip of the keyboard. If anyone is guilty at such typos all i have to do is look in the mirror myself.

    BTW new members are moderated for a certain amount of posts that is already in place but a mod. has the ability to override that moderation count. In this case it was a legit thread start. Going back Pete asked exactly the correct questions to ask without getting into any price policing on either side of the coin. Exactly what any member interested in buying would normally do in a case where 10 words are in the description. Bottom line failure of the seller to provide more data. Second failure is assuming anything about the seller without credibly evidence which resides in any legal system. NO ONE knows anything about the seller in this case but looking back did not a lot of folks assume the worst. Yes they did and instead they should ask questions or send PM's in private to the seller and say hey listen don't want to interrupt but blah blah and give some friendly advice.

    GetDPI does not involve itself in these direct sales and never will. It's a free service and you are on your own as with any forum.

    As one of our mods. clearly points out in his thoughts. Thank You Bob

    We don't judge buyers or sellers, offers or items
    We make no representations at all and are merely providing a means for potential sellers and buyers to exchange information.
    All transactions are at the risk of the principle parties and we are not one of them.


    You can't expect any forum to act any differently than that or its officials.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    As suggested by Jack to take to the Sunset Bar..

    Should blatantly obvious spam have any place in the B&S board?
    Ben, simple question: Do you have proof it was a scam post?

    I think not. What you have is a strong supposition, but not proof. And in this country, folks are deemed innocent until proven guilty. You may not like that approach -- and that is certainly your prerogative -- but it is a foundational pillar of American society.

    The first responder did the exact correct thing in asking for supporting pictures etc since it was this person's first post -- there was not a thing wrong with that; it was polite yet the intention and supposition were clear. However a few of the posts that followed, like the one certifying it was 1000000% SCAM, were a direct slur on the OP without proof, and therefore not in concert with the rules of GetDPI. The fact remains it could just be a very good deal...

    The second issue I had, was the few members who decided our rules and moderator decisions were up for open debate in the first place, let alone in somebody else's FS thread! Let me state clearly and emphatically, that was totally inappropriate behavior toward US. If anybody has an issue with one of the owners or mods or our rules, PM us or raise the subject here in the Sunset Bar like you have done.

    Hope we are all more clear now on these points going forward.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    What an interesting chain of events .....

    Not all legal systems offer the presumption of innocence, and even in some places in the American system this is not the way it works, for example with the IRS .... They send a bill, and you must defend without the presumption of innocence.

    IMHO, this is quite a simple issue, the owners of this board have a simple set of rules, and as near as I can tell, they have applied them correctly. As the owners, they take no responsibility for posts that follow the rules i.e. had this been a blatant commercial post the thread would have been closed and moved, or perhaps just closed. It was not. Both Jack and Guy take NO PERSONAL responsibility for buy and sell, and they seem to apply the rules evenly across the board. To do otherwise would set a dangerous president and open them to possible consequences ... In my book, bravo to them.

    Compared to some other boards I frequent, this one is downright civil, and my hat is off to the whole community for making it that way.

    Lets all try to play nice and keep it fun, even if there is the appearance of impropriety by some new members!

    with warm regards;

    Dave

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    Senior Member Leicadoc's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Even though I would love to move up to the M2, the thought of dealing here never entered my mind.
    Why? Nothing to do with price. I had never seen posts from this person.
    I'd be just about as likely to buy from this poster as I would who said Guy was a friend of his, with Guy saying, publicly "Sorry...have we met", (in effect, that is..). Some things don't pass the "sniff" test.
    So, yes, maybe I will miss out on a few great deals from great, but new, sellers. So be it. The money saved on the great deal isn't worth the worry and consternation it causes me. In my view, I don't need to save the money THAT bad. So as long as the mods are even handed in application of the rules here, which almost, but not all, are, then we depend on our own judgement and risk tolerance and experience. For me, that's pretty much the safest we can make it. I wouldn't approach it any other way, if I were Guy and Jack.
    Michael

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    I'm vaguely interested in a 5DMkII. So I read the thread with some interest as I found it an impossible deal already from just reading the topic title. Yes, without proof, I doomed sarahsky as something pesky. Guilty...

    May I suggest minimum of at least 5 posts before anyone is entitled to start a thread in the B/S forum? To make the place even better some sort of feedback system would be great. Now there are these threads dedicated for that but frankly, searching for a user and experiences from dealing with that user is not easy. (http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/ for example has an iTrader system which works very well) I understand setting up the feedback system demands some work and that somebody has to do it... so I don't demand it, take it as a rather humble suggestion only.

    /Jonas

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Jonas,

    You are not the only one that has suggested this, however there is no easy way for us to moderate how many posts a potential seller has to have before being allowed in the B&S. Alternatively, my suggestion would rather be that YOU do not buy from anybody unless they already have whatever critical mass of posts that YOU AS THE BUYER deem appropriate. That makes it easy, since everybody gets to decide for themselves what that critical number is

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Have to agree with Jack here as we are discussing this is as well. But truth is you have to find your own comfort level. As always suggested do your due diligence and ask questions that are important to you as well either via PM or on the thread according to the rules.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Or do an FM and charge a small yearly fee to sell on the B&S, that will keep most of the away.

    (ducks under cover and waits for hail of stones from angry people!)
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Yea you better get under cover quick. Looking at the overhead nuclear rock throwing display I see a lot projectiles heading your way. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    As a former (now reformed) breaker-of-rules in the For Sale segment of this forum, my cred may not be all that substantial. But as a long-time member/reader/participant, I have total and unadulterated faith in the wisdom of our benevolent hosts. It's not by accident that the forum is what it is and the credit must go to the founders, Jack and Guy, along with the moderators they've chosen.

    If they asked me for suggestions or ideas about the forum, I would try hard to come up with something useful. It is not cool however, to assume they should try to accommodate my every whim or to tell them how to run their show. Like a guest at their dinner party, I would consider it extremely bad form to tell them how "the dinner could be better if you would just...". Seems a tad ungrateful to me.

    Tim

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    As a former (now reformed) breaker-of-rules in the For Sale segment of this forum, my cred may not be all that substantial. But as a long-time member/reader/participant, I have total and unadulterated faith in the wisdom of our benevolent hosts. (...)Like a guest at their dinner party, I would consider it extremely bad form to tell them how "the dinner could be better if you would just...". Seems a tad ungrateful to me.

    Tim
    Jack and Guy,
    I regret my suggestion. It's easy to come up with up stuff on a whim when not being the one having to take the work or the sh... Well, that's for the suggestion about a mini post level before starting threads in the B&S forum. What about a more advanced feedback system than having to read through page after page of nice comments in the Positive... and Negative... threads?

    Tim, If you are saying any suggestion posted here is a sign of an ungrateful individual not enjoying the dinner for what it is - then you are a too humble person not trying to help the community out. Maybe the reformation process from rule-breaker to uncritical yes-man went a step too far?



    /Jonas

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    Senior Member Leicadoc's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    I don't think offense is intended here.
    During this particular B & S discussion, inapproiriate comments were made, and Guy invited this discussion.
    Clearly, he and Jack didn't have to.
    Personally, I think it's healthy and positive.
    And it's the philosophy that attracted me here after Cindy first invited me...
    Michael

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    I agree. Nothing wrong with speaking freely
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Jack and Guy,

    Tim, If you are saying any suggestion posted here is a sign of an ungrateful individual not enjoying the dinner for what it is - then you are a too humble person not trying to help the community out. Maybe the reformation process from rule-breaker to uncritical yes-man went a step too far?



    /Jonas
    I was mixing threads. My reaction was to the original FS thread, not this one that was started for the purpose of discussing the other one. Maybe a new thread is required to discuss what's been overlooked or misinterpreted here in this one.

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    Senior Member Leicadoc's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Hopefully, not...
    Michael

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    I was the mod who approved the ridiculously cheap 5DII offer.
    I looked at it blinked twice, ran the rules through my head and approved it.
    From time to time the mods discuss these situations amongst ourselves and we decided that it was not a rule violation. I think I quipped something like "perhaps we ought to buy a dozen of them". We try to moderate this place carefully but firmly but considering its size, the task could grow to become unacceptable to our squad of volunteers if we made the rules too complex. I feel that it it better to hold the line firmly on a simple set of rules than to give up on a complex set that nobody understands and consequently would be administered unevenly. In the B&S forum, the real dynamic is the same as in any other financial transaction. If a willing buyer and seller agree on terms the deal is done. The mods cannot get into either parties head and anticipate what factors are significant.
    So please let's keep it simple.
    -bob

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    And that comes from Bob in a hospital bed after surgery to his shoulder. What dedication is that you wonder. Love ya Bob get some rest bud. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    I must have needed the surgery since it already feels better than before the operation. it is a real pita typing left handed.
    I DO intend to rest a bunch today.
    -bob

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Hit the pain meds release button once for me, will ya? Speedy recovery!

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Hope you feel better, Bob.
    There's such a thing as TOO dedicated.
    Take it easy and rest a day or two.
    Don't pop your staples...
    Michael

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    Re: Spam and the B&S board

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    In the B&S forum, the real dynamic is the same as in any other financial transaction. If a willing buyer and seller agree on terms the deal is done. The mods cannot get into either parties head and anticipate what factors are significant.
    So please let's keep it simple.
    -bob
    Quite agree Bob - the B&S seems to work really well as it is (at least for you guys in the States - it's not so efficient the other side of the pond). If it ain't broke!

    Much more importantly - good luck with the shoulder - I hope it's better really soon.

    all the very best

    Just this guy you know

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