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Thread: Used Leica lens prices

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Used Leica lens prices

    Okay, so now two of my posts have been removed because I made comments about the prices of used Leica lenses recently.

    My earlier comment was about the fact that there should be some accountability from new members before selling high ticket items, such as "used" Leica lenses. These used lenses are selling for thousands more than new ones, from new members with 1 post! I also mentioned that I was humbled by the fact that GetDPI members usually offer their gear for substantial discounts before going to other sites like Ebay. Perhaps a minimum of 10 posts or more could establish a photographers profile, so potential buyers can be more assured of a safe transaction. Lens availability obviously drives market price, but this is absurd! New members are coming online everyday selling used lenses for thousands more than new ones! My comment suggested that one should also check other "trusted" dealers before sending thousands of dollars to a private seller with no feedback and therefore no recourse if the sale goes sour. Common sense can't always be enough in these forums as fraud and speculation will prevail.

    These prices will set a precedent that will be hard to mitigate, so I think it's only fair to try to put in a few standards that might weed out the potential scam. Ebay has feedback scores that are easily accessed, perhaps a feedback score next to the number of posts here can be used in the same manner. GetDPI feels more like a community than any other site; names such as; fotografz, seibel, peterA, Guy, Jack, bensonga, d&a, jonoslack,Don Libby, Ken Doo(kdphotography), and many many others give this site a unique "family" quality that's unlike any other! My comments are not meant to criticize the moderators, but only meant to offer suggestions to obtain the highest level of quality that we've come to expect at GetDPI.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 9th July 2011 at 06:23.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    The way I see is it is people can set whatever price they want. The market may or may not respond to them, but that is a different story. There is no (in your term) "family" when it comes to money. However, when the sellers decide to do that, it at least tells me about them as a person. For me, if it is someone who is serious about photography and is going to take great pictures, not just to buy from me and then sell at higher price, I tend to give them a good price as a lot of people in the past has given me in the same thing is all I gonna say.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    I see no value in having pricing regulated by rules and moderators on a photo forum. Philosophically, I have little interest in such protectionist practices.

    "Let the buyer beware!"

    Anyone looking at high ticket photo equipment advertised on the internet has at their disposal all the research tools in the universe to determine whether the price is fair and the vendor is honest. If one chooses to buy from questionable vendors or pay escalated prices, well, that is one's choice.

    Sellers who defraud buyers are already on the dark side of the law, and there are already plenty of rules and legal actions available to assist buyers who have been defrauded. Charging a high price for a hard to get item (presuming the item is honestly described, of course), by the way, isn't a fraud or scam ... it's a prime example of simple market economics in a capitalist system.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebook View Post
    The way I see is it is people can set whatever price they want. The market may or may not respond to them, but that is a different story. There is no (in your term) "family" when it comes to money. However, when the sellers decide to do that, it at least tells me about them as a person. For me, if it is someone who is serious about photography and is going to take great pictures, not just to buy from me and then sell at higher price, I tend to give them a good price as a lot of people in the past has given me in the same thing is all I gonna say.
    Bluebook, that's a really good point i should have touched on. Your absolutely right.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Perhaps a minimum of 10 posts or more could establish a photographers profile, so potential buyers can be more assured of a safe transaction.
    I really don't see how any amount of posts can ever provide such assurance of a safe transaction. Besides, why does the number of posts have to be regulated if it's clearly visible to all who come and visit the site? All transactions on this or any other enthusiast forum are assumed to be 'buyer beware' and cannot hold the seller accountable through anything other than negative feedback. By extension, there can be no assurance provided to buyers. Good judgment and research comes into play there.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    My comment suggested that one should also check other "trusted" dealers before sending thousands of dollars to a private seller with no feedback and therefore no recourse if the sale goes sour. Common sense can't always be enough in these forums as fraud and speculation will prevail.
    You simply can't protect the world from people doing dumb things through regulation unless you take all their freedoms away and make all their decisions for them. There's a level of protection built into using tools like PayPal (NOT the gift option), or credit cards that allow you to fight charges, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    These prices will set a precedent that will be hard to mitigate, so I think it's only fair to try to put in a few standards that might weed out the potential scam.
    There's no such precedent setting that I've observed on this or any other forum. The general practice is that people replace their item price in their original post with a 'SOLD' text, so in the majority of cases there's no price history that people can glean off these forums. Additionally, rarely to items sell at the listed price, so you have no idea what the final selling prices were at any rate - those are established in PMs.

    I understand your intent, and it's noble, but the way this forum operates in terms of private buying and selling is no different than other reputable forums out there. The rules are very clearly explained in the stickies on top of the B&S thread, and those should be sufficient to provide potential buyers cause to pause and think about what they're doing.
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I see no value in having pricing regulated by rules and moderators on a photo forum. Philosophically, I have little interest in such protectionist practices.

    "Let the buyer beware!"

    Anyone looking at high ticket photo equipment advertised on the internet has at their disposal all the research tools in the universe to determine whether the price is fair and the vendor is honest. If one chooses to buy from questionable vendors or pay escalated prices, well, that is one's choice.

    Sellers who defraud buyers are already on the dark side of the law, and there are already plenty of rules and legal actions available to assist buyers who have been defrauded. Charging a high price for a hard to get item (presuming the item is honestly described, of course), by the way, isn't a fraud or scam ... it's a prime example of simple market economics in a capitalist system.
    Godfrey,

    That's my point, I don't want to buy from questionable vendors and there's no way to determine that as it currently stands. I'd rather not have a bag of doorknobs delivered to my door in a Leica case, but using one's feedback I can better make an informed decision. I did research Leica prices and haven't found any higher than what's listed here, but i'm sure it's only a matter of time before these prices are commonplace. Also, i'm not suggesting anyone moderate prices, but only to quote you: "(presuming the item is honestly described, of course)," I'm only suggesting trying to implement a feedback score or other method of determining a sellers history, helps to take some of the presumption out of the equation. If I need a $4000 used Leica lens that costs $1995 new, I would prefer a good feedback score to help justify such a foolish purchase.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    The feedback both positive and negative threads are stickies along with rules and guidelines for buyers and sellers. Bottom line if you think it is too much or the seller maybe questionable than simply walk away. No one is twisting your arm and there is no way for us as owners to determine if a seller is a crook or not. Although we do get a lot of PM's on questionable people .

    Bottom line we do everything in our power and legal responsibility to provide as a safe a environment as we can both morally and ethically as we can as owners. But ALL buy and sales are always buyer beware. The warning is there.
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    +1 with Guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    That's my point, I don't want to buy from questionable vendors and there's no way to determine that as it currently stands. ...
    ... I would prefer a good feedback score to help justify such a foolish purchase.
    I don't believe any "feedback score" or scoring system ensures that you will not run into a crooked deal. Information about the vendor from such systems is only supporting documentation. Word of mouth testimonial from people whose opinions you find creditable is by far the best means to determine that a particular vendor is honest and also can give you information about how they judge equipment (for used gear) and how they do business. Talking to the vendor, whether via email or phone for someone remote from in-person interaction, should also give you information as to whether the vendor is to your liking or not.

    Sorry, but there are no easy ways to score someone and guarantee successful business transactions. Business is personal: I don't buy anything from anyone I don't trust, and sometimes I have to work a little harder to figure out who I can trust when I don't have direct access to the person or the equipment they're vending.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    The only feedback threads that i've read here, are for sales that have already transacted, so those don't really help to determine a scam if someone uses multiple "handles" or just sells one time. Realistically, I know you can't stop or always filter an illegal transaction. PayPal does offer some protection by not using the gift option, and I suppose the seller could roll the 3% into the price or deduct it all together, but i'm not sure if PayPal even provides coverage at those high prices. While the used Leica lens market is hot, so is the number of new members who have just joined, seemingly, to just sell used Leica lenses.

    I think bluebook makes the best point by saying,"However, when the sellers decide to do that, it at least tells me about them as a person."

    While in Laurel Canyon in Los Angeles, an earthquake took out the local water supply. The local deli decided to sell 1 gallon jugs of water at $10 a gallon, did the owner make money that day? Yes, indeed, but ethically, I was soured and never shopped there again. Will people pay foolish amounts of money for already overpriced Leica lenses...well, we know the answer to that! I'm just venting my frustration because I want (need) a wide and telephoto for my camera, but won't touch these prices until some sense of reason is restored, or Leica starts shipping lenses!
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 9th July 2011 at 12:30.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Seriously check with our vendors that help sponsor this site. I never seen such a display of used Leica gear in my life until I walked into Camera West. Sean is the owner there and one of the nicest guys you want to meet. Try the Palm Springs store, check there website or give him a call.
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Godfrey,

    Word of mouth testimonials don't exist for certain transactions from new members that just joined to sell a particular Leica lens. Perhaps, it's my nature to be cautious when perusing the FS or WTB section in search of a Leica lens, when several "new" members are commenting on how another "new" members used Leica M lens is so special and cheap at $8000! I'm thinking "shill", but others might be fooled. Honestly, when shopping on Ebay, I absolutely, will not purchase an item from someone who has considerably bad feedback, regardless of how much I want that item, so I think there's a little merit to it. It's certainly not fool proof, but it's something. Most of my Craigslist transactions have been in person, and there's no feedback system, but it's fraught with scams and fraud. I wouldn't be so apprehensive about feedback. Feedback scores don't spy on you through the laptop camera, but they do provide some insight to your intentions.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    It's just supply and demand. I don't hold anyone in higher or lower regard based on the price they sell something, whether that price is significantly under or significantly over current market price.

    Market price is market price -- it is really irrelevant whether it is equal, below or above new retail.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    BTW, if you want that $8k lens for $5k, drop me a PM.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Guy,

    I did in fact, check GetDPI's sponsors and your right, Camera West has lots of great items! Thanks!

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Really there are several issues rolling around this thread ...each is important .

    1. Clearly the moderators can t do much more than require a brand new members post to be reviewed before listing. They provide a way to leave feedback and you can ask legitimate questions in public. Then can influence opinion by suggesting ways photographers can get there own rare gear . Good heads up from Guy on Camera West .

    2. Avoiding scams is actually fairly easy . I always find a question that requires a phone call ..most scammers will blow you off immediately . If I don t know the person I ask for selling history and look them up on ebay . The hard ones are the good deals ..too good and I really dig in . It all depends on the ability to check out the other person and how much you trust them.

    I am disappointed about 25% of the time ..but I don t get taken. The term “mint” comes from coin collecting...it means as it comes from the mint ....better than uncirculated . I ask for description of anything that would be different from an item leaving the factory . I use checks,gifts,paypal attached to my American Express. Depends on who I am working with. It works both ways I will not sell to someone I don t know with regular paypal unless I can verify the person .

    3. Selling above retail list . Obviously anyone can sell anything they want at what the market will pay . My policy is I will just never buy from them. Personally I think its fine to decide to sell a lens thats in heated demand above list . But this is a big BUT...if you arent making a business out of scalping product . That s just like concert tickets .....you hustle around buying up product making it even rarer and more expensive ...then you exploit the limited supply to extract excessive prices.

    I had access to a minimum of 6 of the rare summiluxes in the last 3-4 months ..could have bought them all and made several thousand $$$. Is that where we are going here .

    Keep the buy sell a strictly amateur activity ....this is headed in the wrong direction and I don t think its cool to keep testing the market with rare equipment at inflated prices . You have ebay if you are trader . GETdpi is for photographers .

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    BTW, if you want that $8k lens for $5k, drop me a PM.
    Crap one of my sources revealed .

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Godfrey,

    Word of mouth testimonials don't exist for certain transactions from new members that just joined to sell a particular Leica lens. ...
    So, if you can't get any information about the vendor you feel is credible, and you don't trust them, don't buy from them. It's as simple as that.

    Putting scoring systems and other nonsense in place would do nothing but provide a false sense of security, in my opinion.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Heh, Roger.

    There are also those buyers who pretend to want a lens for shooting, they get in line for a hard-to-get lens, and when they receive it, promptly post it on ebay to make a quick profit. That has happened to me more than once; I generally won't sell to them again.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Really there are several issues rolling around this thread ...each is important .

    1. Clearly the moderators can t do much more than require a brand new members post to be reviewed before listing. They provide a way to leave feedback and you can ask legitimate questions in public. Then can influence opinion by suggesting ways photographers can get there own rare gear . Good heads up from Guy on Camera West .

    2. Avoiding scams is actually fairly easy . I always find a question that requires a phone call ..most scammers will blow you off immediately . If I don t know the person I ask for selling history and look them up on ebay . The hard ones are the good deals ..too good and I really dig in . It all depends on the ability to check out the other person and how much you trust them.

    I am disappointed about 25% of the time ..but I don t get taken. The term “mint” comes from coin collecting...it means as it comes from the mint ....better than uncirculated . I ask for description of anything that would be different from an item leaving the factory . I use checks,gifts,paypal attached to my American Express. Depends on who I am working with. It works both ways I will not sell to someone I don t know with regular paypal unless I can verify the person .

    3. Selling above retail list . Obviously anyone can sell anything they want at what the market will pay . My policy is I will just never buy from them. Personally I think its fine to decide to sell a lens thats in heated demand above list . But this is a big BUT...if you arent making a business out of scalping product . That s just like concert tickets .....you hustle around buying up product making it even rarer and more expensive ...then you exploit the limited supply to extract excessive prices.

    I had access to a minimum of 6 of the rare summiluxes in the last 3-4 months ..could have bought them all and made several thousand $$$. Is that where we are going here .

    Keep the buy sell a strictly amateur activity ....this is headed in the wrong direction and I don t think its cool to keep testing the market with rare equipment at inflated prices . You have ebay if you are trader . GETdpi is for photographers .
    Just to tag on to Rogers comments. Photos of items are also very good sign that a seller is actively involved and honestly if it is not someone I know i would like to see some images.

    The problem here is right now this is happening with Leica gear. Most of it holds it's value and when items are not being shipped from the OEM used prices go up. Simple supply and demand. Stop wanting it. LOL
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Heh, Roger.

    There are also those buyers who pretend to want a lens for shooting, they get in line for a hard-to-get lens, and when they receive it, promptly post it on ebay to make a quick profit. That has happened to me more than once; I generally won't sell to them again.
    I have a lot of empathy for the dealers in this market and Robert is a one of the best .

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Roger/ Guy,

    All excellent points, i'm just glad there's a dialog open because I was wondering if anyone else was picking up on this.

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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    @ Guy:
    Stop wanting it. LOL
    How's that working for you?


    Seriously, +1 for Godfrey, Roger, and Guy. It's simple:

    Caveat Emptor!

    I see prices here and elsewhere that, frankly, are ludicrous. My response? No response—apart from moving on. Cheers to all, KL

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by kit laughlin View Post
    @ Guy: How's that working for you?


    Seriously, +1 for Godfrey, Roger, and Guy. It's simple:

    Caveat Emptor!

    I see prices here and elsewhere that, frankly, are ludicrous. My response? No response—apart from moving on. Cheers to all, KL
    Not well. LOL
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I have a lot of empathy for the dealers in this market and Robert is a one of the best .
    +1 for Robert and there are still dealers that have brick and mortar stores with a low key web presence that have Leica stock on hand.

    Walked into one last month and they had 2 35 Summilux and 2 50 Summicrons on the shelf along with other lenses and guess what? They were at MAP price, new with warranty. The moral here is that sometimes you just got to do your homework. BTW resisted the urge to plunder and profit, instead posted on the B&S forum with their contact information. I will be going back down there in a couple of weeks to see how they are doing.
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Used Leica lens prices

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    +1 for Robert and there are still dealers that have brick and mortar stores with a low key web presence that have Leica stock on hand.

    Walked into one last month and they had 2 35 Summilux and 2 50 Summicrons on the shelf along with other lenses and guess what? They were at MAP price, new with warranty. The moral here is that sometimes you just got to do your homework. BTW resisted the urge to plunder and profit, instead posted on the B&S forum with their contact information. I will be going back down there in a couple of weeks to see how they are doing.
    Yes,

    I guess nobody HAS to pay those incredible prices and doing lots of research for Leica lenses is a good idea. Really, the moral of the story is simply, "Buyer Beware". And judging from these posts and policies, that's all you've got. With the sale of these high priced lenses, the real honorable sellers might provide some kind of return policy too.

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