Site Sponsors
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 51 to 100 of 148

Thread: Free service in jeopardy?

  1. #51
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Guy Wrote--->>> "So maybe the word banning sounds pretty intense or forever it is not the case"<<<

    Hmmm, what ever happened to using the time tested phrase "Timed Out". It was completely understandable to this once 5 year old, every time he overwound and broke his Dad's 8mm movie camera's internal spring . Of course chewing gum in class provoked use of the same phrase too! On the other hand, using "being sent to the Principal's Office" ...well I don't think would work too well here on Getdpi

    In all honesty, I'm glad we're all having the opportunity to express our feelings about what transpired and possibly how things should be handled...as it would be a shame to loose the privilages and spirit of the Getdpi "FS" forum. It will always be difficult to get a overwhelming identical concensus on how to handle things, since to some who photography is a profession, looks at equipment and purchases somewhat differently than that of the "collector" or as the amateur photographer does.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 6th August 2011 at 07:45.

  2. #52
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Dave I like that phrase so much better. Thanks I will pass that along.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #53
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sausalito, CA
    Posts
    99
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I know I'm new here, so my comment doesn't carry much weight, but you are the first person I thought of when someone mentioned the 'old boys network' earlier.
    The 35mm Summilux Titanium you had for sale at $3250 turned into a long thread of backslapping and it helped you sell a very overpriced lens. Maybe the buyer really thought it was worth that much money, but they may also have been influenced by the 'Ashwin is super' pile on that occurred.

    my .02

    Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    Puttin' my $0.02 in for what it's worth. I have had THE BEST buying and selling experiences here at GetDPI. The gang here is, nearly without exception, trustworthy, friendly, and as a result of the forum and even as a result of buy-sell, I have made some great friends in the photo world.

    I think that the Mods have done a remarkable job keeping the service open for use, friendly, and well received. They have a hard, and thankless job, and they do it supremely well.

    As for me, I feel that I can make my own choices with regards to whom I should buy and sell with. I always ask for people to present a record of good standing somewhere (prefereably here), and my partners in sale have asked the same of me. Regarding "pricing", it's on all of us to set the market. I personally don't like to upmark items, but that doesn't necessarily dictate how others may choose to do their business. If an item is priced too-high, I simply ignore it and move on. If I have an item that I desire at a certain price-point, I post WTB ads, and they have, for the most part, been met by gracious individuals who have granted my wishes. I find the entire experience to be well moderated, not intrusive, and constructive. I agree with the mod's sentiments entirely that there shouldn't be price policing here. Simply ignoring an overpriced item should be a message enough to the seller, if there happens to be someone out there who chooses a high price on a lens, then kudos to all, as both supply and demand have been met....

    I, for one, plan to continue to use this service, and I appreciate what you all have done for the photographic community (in my case, Lecia).

    Thumbs up, kudos, good job guys, rock on!!! All good!

  4. #54
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Bob you carry as much weight as anyone else around here . New to the forum or old to it. If you participate than you gain that respect always.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #55
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    While I agree that there's often too much of the "great deal, buy this lens" kind of posting, I think there's a difference between hyping the item for sale and providing feedback on the seller. Saying that "I bought a lens from X, and it was delivered promptly and was fairly described" has a value to prospective buyers. Saying that a particular Leica lens offered at a high price is a good deal is entirely different. As I've said before, If I can't say that the price is silly, why should someone else get to say it's reasonable?

  6. #56
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    While I agree that there's often too much of the "great deal, buy this lens" kind of posting, I think there's a difference between hyping the item for sale and providing feedback on the seller. Saying that "I bought a lens from X, and it was delivered promptly and was fairly described" has a value to prospective buyers. Saying that a particular Leica lens offered at a high price is a good deal is entirely different. As I've said before, If I can't say that the price is silly, why should someone else get to say it's reasonable?
    I agree seller feedback is fine but leave any reference to price out good, bad or indifferent . I know sometimes even I am guilty of wow that is a nice price.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    As SG suggests. No pricing comments - good or bad. Comments on seller being reputable - that's fair as we really don't have a numerical rating system say like FM.

    Publicly chastising someone for not being willing to leave money on the table given market conditions is fine - as long as we're also all willing to pay up to fair market when we come across 'a steal' because the seller is in a financial crunch or ignorant of what they have. Can't have it both ways.

    If someone's motives, selling technique, price bother you - just move on quietly shaking your head. What something is worth and what techniques you find bothersome, as long as they play by the rules, might not mean one iota to the next person.

    After all, we're not talking food stuffs or medical supplies after a natural disaster here...

  8. #58
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    GTA, Canada
    Posts
    587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    It's ridiculous think for one second to tell anyone how much they should sell their items for. It doesn't matter what the current market value is, if the majority starts to buy the item at a premium price, that becomes the market value. That is how Supply/Demand works. It's as simple as that. If the market doesn't believe the premium price, it won't sell. In the end, seller has the right to ask for whatever price, and market will decide the rest.

    My $0.02
    Scott

  9. #59
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Btw I know all the tricks of bumping your ad up to the top. Trust me your not fooling anyone. Try limiting that to once a day folks. No hard rule here And I really don't want to make one either but do respect others ads by not keep pushing them down the threads.

    Problem I really see lately is people pushing the rules to the bare limits and riding that out continually. Folks I have been on the forums for years as well as Jack and our mods. Please dont think we don't notice this behavior.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #60
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The notion of members policing the B/S section to preserve the "family forum feel" is BS ...
    Nice, Marc... the intention behind the suggestion wasn't to be belittled in public.

  11. #61
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I am not very active here but I read all these with much interest. It is good we are discussing this out, not behind closed door. I am sure at the end, we will come out with a method that is tailored for this forum.

  12. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    182
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The concept of fair market value and supply/demand are two different concepts. FMV is established when an informed willing buyer and informed willing seller agree on price without undue outside influence. It can establish a benchmark price for that product if there are enough observations to see a trend. For instance real estate sales. Those settled prices are known and are used to help establish FMV. It is a guide of price in the market, not an absolute. Since we do not know what these forum transactions actually settle at, we do not really know FMV. The current trend of higher prices has to do with the next concept.

    The supply/demand equation has to do with scarcity of a product. Low supply and high demand means higher price. May or may not not be FMV. Especially if the buyer is desperate and wants/needs the product (undue influence). Likewise, when a seller is desperate to sell price could be lower (undue influence). That is not FMV either. When supply and demand come back into equilibrium, price volatility will settle down.

    Sell at what price you think you can get. There is nothing unethical about it. There are folks who will not gouge but that does not make them any more ethical than the guy who sells high.

  13. #63
    Member Farnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    With the greatest respect "fair" has no meaning in business, which is essentially the environment that exists in the Buy & Sell forum. For any other environment to exist would require the artificial manipulation of prices.

    Pete.

  14. #64
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?


  15. #65
    Member Farnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    If that's directed at my posting you'll have to explain it because I don't get what you're trying to say.

  16. #66
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32° 31' 37.06" N, 111° 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    My own thoughts on this are simple.

    The internet is like a dark room you enter that's filled with people. The people are in various shades of shadows. Those you know are in the light and further in the room are those you don't know who are in complete darkness. You have "friendlies" and you have "tangos" (not friendly). In my experience you are one or the other and unless or until you prove yourself then you're the other. My wife told me a long time ago I should have a license plate that reads 'Trust No 1".

    So how does this fit in a buy/sell forum? The same basic way as say in E-bay. You enter at you own risk.

    My suggestion on pricing is simple. We are not the police of pricing. If you see an ad that strikes you as wrong and feel it would be ill-advised for a purchaser to buy you have only 2-options. Shut up and ignore it and move on. Or report the ad to the forum mods and let them do their job. Really simple if you think about it.

    In business it's simple. I as the seller get to set what I think is a fair price. You as the consumer get to either accept it or begin negations on what you think is a fair price. A third party has no say so in it unless that party is invited specifically at the request of either the seller or purchaser.

    This goes the same with price gouging. It isn't right however you still have the same 2-options.

    If you don't like it learn to deal with it.

    Oh and read the rules their there for a purpose.


    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  17. #67
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    You know what, if someone is going to buy a lens costing more than $5K and doesn't do their homework to understand pricing and understanding supply demand perhaps that is their own problem.

    In addition, nobody knows what the final selling prices of these lenses turns out to be. Asking price is one thing. The negotiation that happens through PM's is not public. So, we really don't know what prices are actually being paid for these lenses.

    Finally, the best way to reform the sellers trying to make a "stupid" amount of profit is to ignore them. They will either drop the price or go elsewhere.
    I was going to chip in here, but you've said everything I think needs saying. If someone wants to sell a noctilux for $50,000, that's up to them . . . if someone wants to buy it . . . that's up to them - neither of these issues are problems for those of use who don't want to do these things!

    Guy - have a great holiday.

    Just this guy you know

  18. #68
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Lots of interesting opinions here. I've read them all with an open mind and now find myself agreeing with everyone

  19. #69
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I was going to chip in here, but you've said everything I think needs saying. If someone wants to sell a noctilux for $50,000, that's up to them . . . if someone wants to buy it . . . that's up to them - neither of these issues are problems for those of use who don't want to do these things!
    Jono- this isn't directed at you but since you referred to the Noctilux.... this whole thread the only thing that keeps popping into my mind are the f1 Nocti's that the early M8 adopters got with their with 30% off coupons.

  20. #70
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Although I understand the attitude of 'buyer beware' that most seem to be advocating here (I don't personally agree but I'm European and we often see things very differently ), if the forum is getting the reputation for being a craiglist mkII then that hardly helps to preserve the reputation that GetDPI has deservedly achieved for being the friendliest photo forum on the net. What has troubled me is that although Guy has made plain that there was more behind the scenes, the immediate 'banning' reaction to the OP did certainly 'surprise' me until Guy's explanation. The whole 'hands off' approach being maintained seemed to clash with the seemingly harsh reaction to any questioning of the policy. A matter of mistaken perception but that was how it appeared until the clarification. Personally since a previous incident where what seemed to many to be an obvious scam was allowed to continue I avoid the B&S here personally. I prefer not to have to deal with the B&S like I would in a Craiglist like marketplace, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth and other forums do offer the option of a more relaxed buying experience. A great shame in what is otherwise the best, nicest and friendliest photo forum on the net bar none. Just my own musings on the issue...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  21. #71
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    The whole 'hands off' approach being maintained seemed to clash with the seemingly harsh reaction to any questioning of the policy
    tell me about it... and even many of the non-mods have been pretty harsh about any questioning going on... even in the spirit of good member relations. I only want for the site's friendly and helpful demeanor to remain as it has in the other sub-forums. The overall attitude of the majority of this thread seems woefully out of place on this site.

    That said... I DO feel the mods do a great job at what has got to be a difficult task.

    Oh well... back to cleaning the office.

  22. #72
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    In our defense we don't read every thread and every post and there are 5 of us on hand. If you want a friendly safe place please help us and report these scams or under handed folks. We do need your help. This week alone Jack is in Ireland, Guy is in San Diego trying to have a vacation. Lol
    Bob is usually on a flight to somewhere as well as Terry and poor Cindy could be left with handling the whole place and she lives in 3 parts of the country. Not the case on some of this but help us help you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  23. #73
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    tell me about it... and even many of the non-mods have been pretty harsh about any questioning going on... even in the spirit of good member relations. I only want for the site's friendly and helpful demeanor to remain as it has in the other sub-forums. The overall attitude of the majority of this thread seems woefully out of place on this site.

    That said... I DO feel the mods do a great job at what has got to be a difficult task.

    Oh well... back to cleaning the office.
    I'm going back to the beach
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  24. #74
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    We love you Guy. Now EYES RIGHT!!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  25. #75
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I am unable to determine a ' stupid ' profit as opposed to a ' intelligent ' profit
    for ' luxury ' items in a free market where only the buyer and seller should determine the price.

    Honesty, civility, courtesy, friendliness are all good attributes between forum members. As is honesty in buying and selling.

    But calling some profits ' stupid ' while some other undetermined level of profit for luxury goods as acceptable is beyond my limited understanding
    of a free market economy.

    And I shall repeat that there is nothing immoral, illegal, unethical to try to make as much of a profit as one can on a luxury item in a free market; with the only caveat being that the seller not misrepresent the condition of the item being offered for sale. The seller wants to give it for free that too is welcome. If the buyer refuses to buy, that is the buyers right.

    To say one believes in a market economy and then talk about limits to profits for luxury items is itself a contradiction.

  26. #76
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I used the term so I will explain. I was NOT talking stupid vs intelligent. I was talking a rate of return on your gear that is above and beyond what any normal investment would make.

    You buy a car you expect for most of them to depreciate in value.
    You buy a computer and newer models get faster and yours depreciates.
    You buy an index funds of stocks you expect it to return a profit over time based on earnings
    You buy a digital camera and you expect over time that it will depreciate.
    You buy a Leica lens and in the darker days before the M8 came out you probably held your own on value and the were worth the same a little more or a little less.
    Now the M9 comes out and buying lenses is leading to profits way above and beyond what one can reasonably expect from that sort of purchase.

    That Is what I was calling a stupid profit.

  27. #77
    Member Farnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    In our defense we don't read every thread and every post and there are 5 of us on hand. If you want a friendly safe place please help us and report these scams or under handed folks. We do need your help. This week alone Jack is in Ireland, Guy is in San Diego trying to have a vacation. Lol
    Bob is usually on a flight to somewhere as well as Terry and poor Cindy could be left with handling the whole place and she lives in 3 parts of the country. Not the case on some of this but help us help you.
    Guy,

    Your Mods (and Jack and you) do an excellent job. I can't help but notice that all 5 of you live in the same continent so wouldn't it help you to have some Mods from other continents to spread the load and maybe help with differing time zones and customs? For example, who's looking after the shop when you're all tucked up in bed? [For the avoidance of doubt this is not a subtle way of offering my services.]

    Pete.

  28. #78
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnz View Post
    Guy,

    Your Mods (and Jack and you) do an excellent job. I can't help but notice that all 5 of you live in the same continent so wouldn't it help you to have some Mods from other continents to spread the load and maybe help with differing time zones and customs? For example, who's looking after the shop when you're all tucked up in bed? [For the avoidance of doubt this is not a subtle way of offering my services.]

    Pete.
    We don't sleep.....seriously

  29. #79
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Jono- this isn't directed at you but since you referred to the Noctilux.... this whole thread the only thing that keeps popping into my mind are the f1 Nocti's that the early M8 adopters got with their with 30% off coupons.
    I got a WATE - it cost me €1300 (I still have it)


    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I used the term so I will explain. I was NOT talking stupid vs intelligent. I was talking a rate of return on your gear that is above and beyond what any normal investment would make.

    You buy a car you expect for most of them to depreciate in value.
    You buy a computer and newer models get faster and yours depreciates.
    You buy an index funds of stocks you expect it to return a profit over time based on earnings
    You buy a digital camera and you expect over time that it will depreciate.
    You buy a Leica lens and in the darker days before the M8 came out you probably held your own on value and the were worth the same a little more or a little less.
    Now the M9 comes out and buying lenses is leading to profits way above and beyond what one can reasonably expect from that sort of purchase.

    That Is what I was calling a stupid profit.
    Certainly I expect to lose money on my digital camera purchases (and I do, although not the same percentage as cars!).
    However, I bought a 0.95 noctilux and a 24 'lux earlier this year, and I would not have dreamed of buying them if it wasn't for the current market prices - I didn't buy them to sell, but I did buy them in the knowledge that I probably could sell them at a profit.

    I'm with Rayvan - in a market economy you get what you can for luxury goods . . . and you're polite, civil, courteous and friendly.

    Just this guy you know

  30. #80
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Hi Terry,

    I read you. But disagree with the notion of a predetermined or some imagined level of profit that can/should be made on a luxury item.

    Let the seller put a price on a luxury item for sale. Any price.

    Let the market determine if he/she gets that price or not.

    If there is a buyer willing to pay that price; then that is the market price for that luxury item at that point in time between those sellers/buyers.

    That is a free market economy. My arguments are restricted to luxury items,
    such as leica products, or Gucci, or Chanel and the like.

    I cannot support the notion that some Leica users cannot afford some Leica lenses because the prices are too high and that a seller should be forced to ask for some imagined price to subsidize their luxury purchases.

    I also do not have any problems with Leica putting up their prices for their products by whatever amount they choose. If the market can support their
    price structure, good for them. If not, they shall have to revise and rethink.

    One is not forced to choose Leica. But if one does want to have Leica and only Leica, then he/she must be willing to pay the market price for their goods. Whatever price the market determines that particular Leica product
    should fetch. To me it is as simple as that.

    Personally, if I cannot afford a Leica product I would buy something else, or forget about it. But I would not say that the asking price for the leica product I need is stupid, immoral, unethical, or illegal.

    In any case it would not make any difference to the price.

    The market shall determine it, as it always does.

  31. #81
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Rayyan,
    I'm only going to reply to the first sentence because that is all that relates to my post and the point I was making. Perhaps stupid was a bad choice of words to translate what I was meaning worldwide. I've bought and sold a lot of the Leica lenses (21, 28, 35, 50, 75, 90) some more than once. I made some money on a number of the sales. What has happened to pricing in the year since I made my last sale is staggering. Believe me after spending more than 25 years in the investment business I understand free markets, luxury goods, etc.

    My only point was that some of these lens prices have given the owners a windfall of profits that was in no way a part of their original buy/sell decision.

    It was not meant to be judgmental etc.

  32. #82
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    My only point was that some of these lens prices have given the owners a windfall of profits that was in no way a part of their original buy/sell decision.
    Well, all I can say is hooray- it's nice that SOMETHING has afforded a profit!

    I doubt the losses that so many of us have made on the financial markets was part of our original buy/sell decision either!

    I'm with Rayvan - and his whole post.

    Just this guy you know

  33. #83
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Hello Terry.

    I, at various times, was heading Treasury, Financial Control and Risk management for a very major international bank here. I did this for 30 years.

    I too know a little about the market economy and how it operates. In Financial products, currencies, commodities and hedge funds.

    Based on my limited experience, I still maintain that there is no price too high or too low for a luxury item.

    Let the markets decide what the sustainable price point for Leica products is.

    I went out of Leica and went long on gold options about 2 years ago. I couldn't afford a Noctilux.

    Best wishes.

  34. #84
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    And I agree on there not being a price too high or too low. That is why I specifically stated I was only responding to clarify the original point that I was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Hello Terry.

    I, at various times, was heading Treasury, Financial Control and Risk management for a very major international bank here. I did this for 30 years.

    I too know a little about the market economy and how it operates. In Financial products, currencies, commodities and hedge funds.

    Based on my limited experience, I still maintain that there is no price too high or too low for a luxury item.

    Let the markets decide what the sustainable price point for Leica products is.

    I went out of Leica and went long on gold options about 2 years ago. I couldn't afford a Noctilux.

    Best wishes.

  35. #85
    Member kalex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    177
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I've been watching these so called "non for profit for sale threads" and they are hilarious. What really kills it for me is these poor excuses that sellers tend to come up with like "oh I only opened it to test, didn't like it", blah blah blah. Call it what it is "I was lucky to find this lens in stock and now I want to make a profit of it". Thats totally fine in free market I could care less.

    Another issue that I have noticed is misrepresentation of the condition. How can "unused" and "tested on balcony and my apartment" go together in one sentence.

    Another issue I have is with sellers crying and bitching when someone posts to their threads. No pain no gain comes into mind. There is nothing wrong with making a profit and I'm guilty of it when Ipad2 came out but I never once moaned about comments in my threads. Seller wants to sell at mark up over MSRP and thats totally fine but don't come crying when people start posting and making comments about it.

    I tend to agree with others the easiest solution would be to make these threads read only and limit bumps to certain time frame. This way I won't login to getdpi and get presented with 10 ads in a row of same seller commenting on his own threads.

  36. #86
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    73
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I am also on watch enthusiast boards that also have B&S boards (timezone and rolexforums). As a collector, I flip watches just cuz I get bored and like to change every so often. What bugs me on the watch boards is that there are sellers that will offer a low price or scoop up good deals quickly and re-list the same watch for $1k or more almost immediately. Not sure that happens here but that bugs the crap of of me as it's not in the spirit of the community IMO.

  37. #87
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountainrivera View Post
    I am also on watch enthusiast boards that also have B&S boards (timezone and rolexforums). As a collector, I flip watches just cuz I get bored and like to change every so often. What bugs me on the watch boards is that there are sellers that will offer a low price or scoop up good deals quickly and re-list the same watch for $1k or more almost immediately. Not sure that happens here but that bugs the crap of of me as it's not in the spirit of the community IMO.
    That we haven't overtly seen and hopefully won't. I can't say that everyone (including me) hangs on to gear for a long time but I believe on this forum gear is generally bought with the intent to use it.

  38. #88
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    I went out of Leica and went long on gold options about 2 years ago. I couldn't afford a Noctilux.

    Best wishes.
    Bet you can afford one now

  39. #89
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Bet you can afford one now
    Good morning David..

    My put option on the $ expires not too long from now. Maybe then something
    tangible might seem worthwhile.

    The call option on gold is renewable. I think I shall ride it till I know what's going to happen to the EURO!! Leica's base currency is what interests me!!

    The markets seems very jittery and the Eurozone is looking shaky!! Hmmm!! I don't have any kids to put thru college, so being risk averse is what I shall become. Being retired and all that.

    Stay well David.

  40. #90
    Member fishandfowl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Leica Prices, Speculation and Poetic Justice

    A recent post, which I think might have been part of this thread, referenced the fact that many owners of current Leica M lenses obtained them during the special discount program that Leica conducted to placate owners of early M8s who were disappointed with them. As people who, between my wife and I, owned three M8's, I felt fortunate to have been able to buy several new lenses at greatly reduced prices and, in some cases, to be able later to sell them for a lot more, mostly on the auction site. It made up for some of the early M8's deficiencies which, of course, was exactly why Leica conducted the program, and it went a long way in my opinion toward keeping the M8 from being still-born. Indeed, it might have discouraged some very unhappy leica owners from organizing a class action suit against the Company. I actually got a widely distributed email that apparently went out to many posters on the Leica Users' Forum that talked about a Class Action, which, fortunately for Leica and us, never materialized.

    Thus, early adopters of the first digital Leica M got some compensation for what many of them viewed as a camera that was defective right out of the box. Most of us who had M8's, even those of us who have since sold them and moved up to the M8.2 and then the M9, still have scores of B+W or Leica (made in Japan) UV IR filters to correct the color shift from black to magenta that the M8 produced. And we appreciated that Leica finally corrected the noisy shutter with the discreet mode in the M9, a fix that eventually was accessible via a firmware upgrade for the M8 that I gave to my son. Who knows, maybe Leica will soon provide LCD screens for the M9 that have resolution almost as good as some of the $500 digital point-and-shoots?

    But I digress.

    Most often, owning pricey Leica cameras and their pricey lenses has been a one-way street, particularly for digital equipment, which quickly depreciates.

    However, when, as in the case of deeply discounted M lenses for early M8 owners, or in the case of the current dramatic shortages of lenses that has created a speculative sellers' market for M lenses, owners are able easily to recover what they paid for them, and, in some cases even make a nice capital gain on them . . . this is what is called poetic justice.

    There is nothing immoral about this.

    It would be different if this involved speculation in a critical commodity during war time, such as what happened with rationed gasoline during WWII in the U.S. and in England. In those situations selling a scarce rationed commodity for a profit, even a commodity as pedestrian as butter, was labeled "profiteering" and could earn one who violated the rules a large fine or even jail time — a situation that has recently been a topic in several segments in the highly acclaimed PBS MasterpieceTheatre series,"Foyle's War."

    But, as another poster said earlier today in this thread, in the case of luxury goods that are in very short supply and in very high demand buyers and sellers are free to make their own market, and there is nothing wrong—indeed there is sometimes poetic justice—when collectors, enthusiasts and "prosumers" can essentially realize a capital gain by buying quality Leica equipment, holding it for a relatively short time and then selling it when the price rises, perhaps, as now, fanned by intense demand among new M9 owners and especially among the newly wealthy of Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore.

    My own approach in this market to pricing equipment that I no longer want, mostly to make room for new Leica gear such as an M9-P or an S2 kit, is to check the prices that are being fetched in Completed Listings on the big auction site as well as the Buy-it-Now asking prices on that site. I then ask only 5 to 10% higher than that, occasionally a bit more, for the lenses I want to sell. I feel no embarrassment doing this, and I do not feel any obligation to price what I want to sell for a lot less simply because one or more forum members complain about "selling above retail."

    As another member put it earlier, to paraphrase, "Retail where and in what currency and when? With or without local taxes and shipping? "

    Lastly, to get specific, why is there anything immoral or unethical about trying to get $12,950 for a Mint or mint- used Noctilux f/.095 when the big auction site lists a used one from Adorama in EX+ condition for $13,888 and shows a completed listing for another used one that went for $14,500?

  41. #91
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    There is nothing moral or unethical about that.

    The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay.

    A completed auction doesn't necessarily mean a completed transaction. Or even a safe transaction for that matter. And BIN asking prices on ebay are pretty much meaningless, except for the BINs that sell instantly; if a BIN doesn't sell within an hour or at most a day, the product is probably priced too high. I'd rather sell something here for 5-10% LESS then what they may or may not go for on ebay. Selling fees here are ZERO, for one; a free service provided by upstanding forum owners. Further, when I sell on ebay, I don't get to choose the buyer. There is a degree if risk in any transaction, but it's arguably greater on ebay. Some would argue considerably greater...

    There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously.

  42. #92
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The market is the market, but I am keen on representing the goods for sale correctly and accurately.
    Goods that are "New" after a few tests on-camera will not be tolerated.
    that counts as used in my book with all the warrantee issues and so forth.
    thanks
    -bob

  43. #93
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Robert,
    I'm in your camp. I always sell here below what I list for on ebay to cover the fees, the hassle factor of completely unknown flakey buyers etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    There is nothing moral or unethical about that.

    The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay.

    A completed auction doesn't necessarily mean a completed transaction. Or even a safe transaction for that matter. And BIN asking prices on ebay are pretty much meaningless, except for the BINs that sell instantly; if a BIN doesn't sell within an hour or at most a day, the product is probably priced too high. I'd rather sell something here for 5-10% LESS then what they may or may not go for on ebay. Selling fees here are ZERO, for one; a free service provided by upstanding forum owners. Further, when I sell on ebay, I don't get to choose the buyer. There is a degree if risk in any transaction, but it's arguably greater on ebay. Some would argue considerably greater...

    There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously.

  44. #94
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32° 31' 37.06" N, 111° 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    The market is the market, but I am keen on representing the goods for sale correctly and accurately.
    Goods that are "New" after a few tests on-camera will not be tolerated.
    that counts as used in my book with all the warrantee issues and so forth.
    thanks
    -bob
    Agreed, buy a car sign the paperwork and immediately turns from new to used. Same with camera equipment - buy it and it immediately becomes used. It could be construed as "like new" but never new again.
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  45. #95
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Agreed, buy a car sign the paperwork and immediately turns from new to used. Same with camera equipment - buy it and it immediately becomes used. It could be construed as "like new" but never new again.
    I also have no idea and frankly no interest in researching what happens with regard to a manufacturer's warranty when stuff is re-sold. That it totally up to a prospective buyer to figure out.
    -bob

  46. #96
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay. ( Quoting monza ).
    ..

    Either the B/S section here is a free market or it is not. Period.
    ( Once again I speak with regard to luxury items like Leica only ).

    The market does not care about community, family, friends, and such wishy washy notions ( that indeed are imperative for/within a society/community). The market is neither good nor bad. The market is neither a friend nor a foe.

    One makes a profit ( in a honest transaction ) the market is not joyous; If one suffers a loss, the market could care less.

    The market is what it is. The market.

    There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously. ( Quoting monza ).

    Please do not confuse civil, honest, friendly interactions between forum members ( and people at large ) with the proper functioning of a free market.

    A free market ( for luxury good ) does not and should not care about philanthropy or altruism. That would destroy its very existence.

    However, I applaud and fully support Guy and his collegues that they are taking this issue seriously and shall do whatever I can to maintain the strong sense of community between members and visitors to this forum; as friends.

    But I am against any interference in the operation of a free market system ( for luxury items ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    The market is the market, but I am keen on representing the goods for sale correctly and accurately.
    Goods that are "New" after a few tests on-camera will not be tolerated.
    that counts as used in my book with all the warrantee issues and so forth.
    thanks
    -bob
    I agree with Bob with his quote above. And support and thank Bob and his
    friends who monitor this ' perilous ' section.

    Regards.
    Last edited by rayyan; 6th August 2011 at 17:56.

  47. #97
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    In all seriousness between us using e- bay as a guide is well sort of misguided. To many variables on e- bay to judge value of items as many just post at really high value than it gets knocked down latter as Monza pointed out. I personally don't like the comparison but it's a personal call on my part not a forum one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  48. #98
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Y'know, all this bally-hoo in the buy-sell forum would go away if everyone would just follow the first unofficial unwritten rule that before anything is posted for sale at GetDPI, it's offered for first consideration to Jack and Guy...


  49. #99
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    My comments weren't really pertaining to a market. This forum has traffic for a reason, and the owners have a right to make sure their product is perceived as they wanted it to be perceived.

    I do agree with your post, rayyan.

  50. #100
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    rayyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    5,887
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Y'know, all this bally-hoo in the buy-sell forum would go away if everyone would just follow the first unofficial unwritten rule that before anything is posted for sale at GetDPI, it's offered for first consideration to Jack and Guy...

    That could be construed as insider trading.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •