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Thread: Free service in jeopardy?

  1. #101
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Insider trading? I'm happy to stand up and state that there's plenty of insider trading going on here Buy and sell enough here and it happens naturally. The B&S forum isn't the only place where deals are done amongst friends in this community.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  2. #102
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Insider trading? I'm happy to stand up and state that there's plenty of insider trading going on here Buy and sell enough here and it happens naturally. The B&S forum isn't the only place where deals are done amongst friends in this community.
    Deals amongst friends is not what is being discussed. Such deals might not reflect the true market price of a luxury item.

  3. #103
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay. ( Quoting monza ).
    ..

    Either the B/S section here is a free market or it is not. Period.
    ( Once again I speak with regard to luxury items like Leica only ).

    The market does not care about community, family, friends, and such wishy washy notions ( that indeed are imperative for/within a society/community). The market is neither good nor bad. The market is neither a friend nor a foe.

    One makes a profit ( in a honest transaction ) the market is not joyous; If one suffers a loss, the market could care less.

    The market is what it is. The market.

    There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously. ( Quoting monza ).

    Please do not confuse civil, honest, friendly interactions between forum members ( and people at large ) with the proper functioning of a free market.

    A free market ( for luxury good ) does not and should not care about philanthropy or altruism. That would destroy its very existence.

    However, I applaud and fully support Guy and his collegues that they are taking this issue seriously and shall do whatever I can to maintain the strong sense of community between members and visitors to this forum; as friends.

    But I am against any interference in the operation of a free market system ( for luxury items ).




    I agree with Bob with his quote above. And support and thank Bob and his
    friends who monitor this ' perilous ' section.

    Regards.

    This is all true, but we need to keep in mind that the freedom to provide information or opinion is not inconsistent with free markets. The provision of comparative information, product reviews, customer service reviews, lowest price information and tools, etc., by third parties to a buyer in a transaction is legal, common and just as ethical as charging $3,000 over list for a used lens.

    I don't see why a seller should be protected from the disclosure of information that should be available to the buying public. To say that it is the buyer's responsibility to find out the information from a source other than their online friends in a community marketplace seems odd. Especially when the same marketplace accepts the posting of information which is complimentary to the seller's offer.

    If comments are possible, then why try to limit them? If Jack and Guy want to prevent comments that provide information that may give a potential buyer pause, whether it be pricing, item qualities, or seller trustworthiness, it is their right - but I think enforcing it fairly and without conflict is all but impossible. The only solution I see that would solve the problem is disallowing comments, it is done in other forums and you don't see this kind of give, take, and angst.

    (I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )

  4. #104
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Insider trading? I'm happy to stand up and state that there's plenty of insider trading going on here Buy and sell enough here and it happens naturally. The B&S forum isn't the only place where deals are done amongst friends in this community.
    Guilty

    I help many forum members purchase high dollar items. I am a consultant too
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  5. #105
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine View Post
    (I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )
    You could be on to something there I bought a very nice red car a few years ago that was the subject of a similar buyers frenzy market and the original buyer was out over $80k on that deal to me. Eventually sanity reigns and someone will doubtless get stuck with the goods - just look at the property speculation market of the last few years.

    Guy: Insider trading? Absolutely
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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  6. #106
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    The market does not care about community, family, friends, and such wishy washy notions ( that indeed are imperative for/within a society/community). The market is neither good nor bad. The market is neither a friend nor a foe.
    Someone please prove to me that this forum is, indeed, a true and "proper" free market. It's not... it is already moderated to a certain extent (to which most of us are not privy) and beholden to rules that are outside the free market ideals.

    This whole issue has come to the fore because certain wishy-washy notions are important to some people that dwell here... mostly because most here are humans, not abstract constructs that perform properly in a non-social vacuum.

    My name is Shelby Lewis and I care about the "wishy washy" "bullshit". There, I've outed myself.

    Time for another cup of late night coffee.

  7. #107
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GDI View Post
    This is all true, but we need to keep in mind that the freedom to provide information or opinion is not inconsistent with free markets. The provision of comparative information, product reviews, customer service reviews, lowest price information and tools, etc., by third parties to a buyer in a transaction is legal, common and just as ethical as charging $3,000 over list for a used lens.

    I don't see why a seller should be protected from the disclosure of information that should be available to the buying public. To say that it is the buyer's responsibility to find out the information from a source other than their online friends in a community marketplace seems odd. Especially when the same marketplace accepts the posting of information which is complimentary to the seller's offer.

    If comments are possible, then why try to limit them? If Jack and Guy want to prevent comments that provide information that may give a potential buyer pause, whether it be pricing, item qualities, or seller trustworthiness, it is their right - but I think enforcing it fairly and without conflict is all but impossible. The only solution I see that would solve the problem is disallowing comments, it is done in other forums and you don't see this kind of give, take, and angst.

    (I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )
    Hi GDI..I do not understand why I am being quoted here.

    Best.

  8. #108
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Someone please prove to me that this forum is, indeed, a true and "proper" free market. It's not... it is already moderated to a certain extent (to which most of us are not privy) and beholden to rules that are outside the free market ideals.

    This whole issue has come to the fore because certain wishy-washy notions are important to some people that dwell here... mostly because most here are humans, not abstract constructs that perform properly in a non-social vacuum.

    My name is Shelby Lewis and I care about the "wishy washy" "bullshit". There, I've outed myself.

    Time for another cup of late night coffee.
    Hi Shelby..

    I fully respect that people expect civility, friendliness, courtesy, honesty
    in their interactions with other members on this forum. And so they should.

    But that is no reason that a seller cannot set any price he/she chooses for a Leica item that he/she is offering for sale in the B/S section of this forum.

    The price set by a seller of Leica products in the B/S section of this forum does not have to be based on any consideration other than what he/she feels the market will bear.

    The only human element to all this price point determination is that the seller, and the viewers are human. That's it. Other considerations, however
    desirable, need not enter the equation.

    But civility during interactions with fellow forum members, I am sure you shall agree, must be respected at all times.

    Kindest regards.

  9. #109
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Hi GDI..I do not understand why I am being quoted here.

    Best.

    Just because I agree with your points on the characteristics of a free market.

    My post was not meant to be critical of your view, I just wanted to point out we do not have a true free market here since some information is suppressed. And, therefore, the arguments in favor of unchallenged pricing in the name of a free market are not valid. Of course the rules are the rules, and however the owners decide to operate is fine with me.

  10. #110
    Member kalex's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GDI View Post
    This is all true, but we need to keep in mind that the freedom to provide information or opinion is not inconsistent with free markets. The provision of comparative information, product reviews, customer service reviews, lowest price information and tools, etc., by third parties to a buyer in a transaction is legal, common and just as ethical as charging $3,000 over list for a used lens.

    I don't see why a seller should be protected from the disclosure of information that should be available to the buying public. To say that it is the buyer's responsibility to find out the information from a source other than their online friends in a community marketplace seems odd. Especially when the same marketplace accepts the posting of information which is complimentary to the seller's offer.

    If comments are possible, then why try to limit them? If Jack and Guy want to prevent comments that provide information that may give a potential buyer pause, whether it be pricing, item qualities, or seller trustworthiness, it is their right - but I think enforcing it fairly and without conflict is all but impossible. The only solution I see that would solve the problem is disallowing comments, it is done in other forums and you don't see this kind of give, take, and angst.

    (I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )

    GDI explained it perfectly. Everybody keeps saying lets have free market, well lets have it with all the comments. Then buyer can take all the information presented to him and make his/her decision. Why limit the information. Btw comments were not degrading or price policing. It was stated that x lens is way above retail and some people commented on their views of waiting for it to be available and such.

    Monza is also correct about his ebay observations. Ebay can't be used to determine market value because ebay is a different animal. You look at closed auctions that are in green. Technically it means that item sold on ebay. But there is alot of stuff going on in the background that nobody knows about. Did buyer pay for the item? Was it a scam, was it paid with stolen credit card?
    Maybe buyer had ebay or paypal promotional certificates and bought it with those which may put the price of the item at 10%-30% cheaper than what it got sold at. I participated at one of those slickdeals and was able to obtain $500 coupons that I used on ebay. There were people who managed to get a lot more. Also ebay doesn't allow sellers to post negative feedback about the buyers so you will never know if the item that sold was paid for or not. Only way to tell is if u see seller posting same item again.
    Usually on all the forums that I participate in people sell below ebay prices not above them.
    Also don't forget about fees that one must pay. Between Paypal/ebay and shipping its about 15% of the total value

  11. #111
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Folks your mixing the debate. No one cares about the market what we care about is the commentary that follows the OP ad. If your a buyer ask the questions that you need answered to make the purchase. What is the issue at hand is the negative comments that follow these ads. This ends now. It is a classified ad and it will remain one just like a newspaper ad. You get the chance to ask questions you do NOT get the chance to say I bought this yesterday for 1000 dollars less for example and such negative comments like
    this. Our issue is these seemingly endless debates on FS ads. Stay out of folks ads if your not interested in buying with lame comments. You want to talk about a item than post it in the forum section and debate till the cows come home. Not here in someone's ad. If I listed a phase 28mm lens for example as a FS ad than I would be extremely pissed if some knucklehead kept saying how much this lens sucked or was overpriced. It simple is not fair and quite rude to get into these debates on a FS ad. The seller has no chance in hell to sell a item for even a fair price with this kind of commentary going on.

    Now we control the for sale ads as they are posted. If things from a seller make no sense or seems to be miss communicating his ad properly we than ask them to make certain changes to there ad. Just did it yesterday to say LNIB not new. What we are after is honest for sale ads that describe the item correctly and to keep the commentary off these ads. You want to debate take it to the forum itself not in someone's ad it is just flat out rude.

    If you consistently get involved in these debates on FS ads than sorry your in a world of hurt. It ends today. Not sure how much clearer I need to be stay out of the ads unless you are a buyer and have legitimate questions to ask. If you really want to say something to the sell than PM him or her. That is what the PM system is for. If you have a problem with there price than PM them and Kindly let them know it seems to high or whatever you feel is necessary. But be a Friend about too. This is a no harassment site and it will always be one. Let's make that perfectly clear right now. Your harassing sellers with commentary that does not belong on FS ads.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    To add to Guy's comments....We don't have the moderator bandwidth to look at every post to every thread. If the messages Guy just imparted are not being followed on a buy/sell thread, just report the post (little blue triangle with ! on th bottom left of the post). All of the moderators get the report and we generally ping each other to ensure that it gets resolved and that all stay in the loop.

  13. #113
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I guess this is the getdpi B&S therapy thread? haha!

    I am new here, so my views may not hold much weight. And yes, I did chime in with my opinion in the thread that I think brought about this thread. I did not "price police", but I did state my issues with the same items from the same seller being in different threadS that kept being bumped by every thought that went through his mind. My comments may have been against the rules, but I'm not sure. But at that point, I was starting to think getdpi is nothing more than a prettier craigslist. So I did not really care if I get banned or not.

    I completely agree with GDI and kalex. If this is truly a free market, both negatives and positive comments will be allowed. I cannot think of any online vendors that I regularly purchase from that did not allow both negative and positive comments (BH, Amazon, etc). Maybe there is a correlation between vendors that allow open discourse and the perception that everything is more in the up and up?

    That, or no comments allowed at all.

    And basing pricing on ebay prices -- I think those people should just sell it on ebay. I always thought forums were better places to buy for better bargains. This is due to the fact that the forums are more 'anonymous', and that you would not have ebay AND paypal to assist with conflict resolutions. So one is taking more risks buying from the forums.

    Just my decreasing value 2 cents (US)...

    BTW, kudos to Guy and gang for allowing this open discussion.

  14. #114
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I guess I took too long typing up my response. I now see Guys' response (#111) and ruling.

    Please disregard my post (#113).

  15. #115
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    NomadicTy

    I'm not sure how commenting on a products pros and cons (after buying it) on a site like B&H or Adorama is analogous to making comments about the merits of a product on someone's buy sell thread.

  16. #116
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    You should report those bumps to us as we do not always see this . Again folks participation is greatly valued and reporting something to us like this bumping practice is certainly one we want to know about and stop. Frankly I am getting no reports and all this crap is happening. Sorry we don't have eyes behind our heads. You want to really help than report this stuff we will act on it.
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  17. #117
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The problem is at one time you will want to sell something here and you get a person tearing down your item or it's price. You will certainly not be happy about it and than we have to go in and edit,delete and everything else but you still would have no chance of selling it since all that stuff went on. All that for zilch. If these negative comments are not there and your price and conditions are within a buyers comfort zone than you will most likely sell your item even if it is over list as we have seen lately. This area should be clean from this type Of harassment and that is how I will describe it and it is against the rules. We here to be fair to both buyer and sellers. Other wise it is just not a great place to buy and sell.
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  18. #118
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Crap 4 more posts I hit 14k. I need a life. Lol
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  19. #119
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    14,000; is that all? It's been about 1400 days. You should hit 14,000 in fifteen minutes or so.

  20. #120
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    That's 10 a day if I made money from them than my wife would be really happy. Alas it's about 5 dollars a year from this place.
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  21. #121
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Folks your mixing the debate. No one cares about the market what we care about is the commentary that follows the OP ad. If your a buyer ask the questions that you need answered to make the purchase. What is the issue at hand is the negative comments that follow these ads. This ends now. It is a classified ad and it will remain one just like a newspaper ad. You get the chance to ask questions you do NOT get the chance to say I bought this yesterday for 1000 dollars less for example and such negative comments like
    this. Our issue is these seemingly endless debates on FS ads. Stay out of folks ads if your not interested in buying with lame comments. You want to talk about a item than post it in the forum section and debate till the cows come home. Not here in someone's ad. If I listed a phase 28mm lens for example as a FS ad than I would be extremely pissed if some knucklehead kept saying how much this lens sucked or was overpriced. It simple is not fair and quite rude to get into these debates on a FS ad. The seller has no chance in hell to sell a item for even a fair price with this kind of commentary going on.

    Now we control the for sale ads as they are posted. If things from a seller make no sense or seems to be miss communicating his ad properly we than ask them to make certain changes to there ad. Just did it yesterday to say LNIB not new. What we are after is honest for sale ads that describe the item correctly and to keep the commentary off these ads. You want to debate take it to the forum itself not in someone's ad it is just flat out rude.

    If you consistently get involved in these debates on FS ads than sorry your in a world of hurt. It ends today. Not sure how much clearer I need to be stay out of the ads unless you are a buyer and have legitimate questions to ask. If you really want to say something to the sell than PM him or her. That is what the PM system is for. If you have a problem with there price than PM them and Kindly let them know it seems to high or whatever you feel is necessary. But be a Friend about too. This is a no harassment site and it will always be one. Let's make that perfectly clear right now. Your harassing sellers with commentary that does not belong on FS ads.

  22. #122
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I fully support the no comments unless you are a potential buyer asking a question.
    But something seems to be getting missed here . The buyer can certainly make their case (as long as they aren t obviously misleading like saying its an asph lens and showing a picture of a non asph).

    Its the friends of the buyer that jump in saying great guy,great price ,free bump . They have no more place than the guy saying you can get it cheaper . There is a place for positive feedback and its not in an active listing.

    2nd issue is reselling brand new items as having a full warranty. Leica s policy in the USA is that M9 s and M lenses warranty is not transferrable. I know buyers slide by if they can get an original invoice from a dealer ..otherwise good luck . Its not right to list an item as having a full warranty unless you can support it with a dealer invoice (and if you can do that what are you doing in the member area).

    Might as well clean up the abuses on both sides at the same time.

  23. #123
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I agree, if there will be no negative comments, there should be no positive comments. No comment!

  24. #124
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    We've been cleaning up comments both negative and positive.

    But to apply a NY saying to GetDPI -

    "If you see something, Say something"

  25. #125
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    What about the warranty question? Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    We've been cleaning up comments both negative and positive.

    But to apply a NY saying to GetDPI -

    "If you see something, Say something"

  26. #126
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    What about the warranty question? Thanks
    Roger - every camera company warranty is different. You cite Leica's, what is Canons? what is Nikon's? The moderators can't have a full knowledge base of all of the brands and exactly what their warranty is. Leica of all of them is the most complex because for every rule there seem to be stories of where that rule hasn't been enforced. If you are a buyer and the seller says there is a warranty, check it out and do your due diligence on how it works. For instance the buyer may include the bill of sale. I've certainly been asked for a bill of sale on gear I've sold.

  27. #127
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    It's a great question Roger and is no definitive answer possible from us. I suggest a potential buyer ask that question directly of the seller and ask for documentation. Not just talking Leica here, looking at the broader products out there there are a lot of different programs that vary also over time. But a very good question for buyers to ask of sellers and to get proof.

    I also agree on the slap on the back comments. I do like that he is a good seller that deliveries on time as that has value for a buyer. But like that really directed at a sellers performance not that he is a great friend of mine stuff. I know a little wishy washy here and a grey area but i think folks are smart enough to make those comments as value added and not a free bump. I will leave that with we can delete them too as people abuse these wishy washy things and hate to even give them a idea about it. I'm going to pay for this one. Lol
    Last edited by Bob; 7th August 2011 at 13:27.
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  28. #128
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    A little free legal advice: unless a seller can prove that something is covered by a manufacturer's warranty, assume that it isn't.

    A bill of sale in the seller's name may prove that the item isn't stolen, and even that the warranty is still valid, but it doesn't answer the question of whether a subsequent buyer can rely on the warranty. A Google search indicates that Leica warranties aren't transferable. Presumably, if they are, a seller could cite some proof.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    There is a certain amount of anecdotal evidence that Leica AG in Solms will honour the remaining period of a warranty, even when ownership has transferred. Having said that, I haven't actually seen it written down anywhere on official documentation nor, even if true in practice, does it mean that Leica NJ will do so. At best, it will mean shipping stuff to Germany for warranty repair.

  30. #130
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Let me go back a second on warranty issues, condition, price and such are not the responsibility of GetDPI. These are bewteen buyer and seller to settle between themselves. We simply are not responsible for this stuff.
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  31. #131
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    We will always help with descriptions and such that will help people but that's where it ends.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #132
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I've often commented when I see a great price. Has nothing to do with being chummy with the seller - just a compliment for a great price. Never realized it bothered anyone. Now, that I know, I'll stop doing it.

    As for negative comments about price, there's no way to allow those without a moderation disaster. Some people will cry price gouging if you refuse to sell a Noctilux at the price you paid in 1976.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    since all sorts of issues are coming up...what about state sales taxes?

    and recording those leica markup profits as income?

  34. #134
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The forum is just providing ad space. Deals are between buyers and sellers, including price, warranty, and whatever else (sales tax?). Others shouldn't comment on ads pro or con. Doesn't that about make things as simple as can be?

  35. #135
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Lol

    I'm sure the taxman would love to see some folks books.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  36. #136
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The forum is just providing ad space. Deals are between buyers and sellers, including price, warranty, and whatever else (sales tax?). Others shouldn't comment on ads pro or con. Doesn't that about make things as simple as can be?
    Yup,
    if this were a classified in a newspaper, then nobody would be able to go around scribbling on everyone's ads LOL
    more and more I am liking the idea of an ad thread to be write-by-original-poster only.
    and maybe no edits, only incremental posts.
    -bob

  37. #137
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    True but not relevant to a USA sale where the buyer is explicitly told he gets the warranty.


    Quote Originally Posted by wattsy View Post
    There is a certain amount of anecdotal evidence that Leica AG in Solms will honour the remaining period of a warranty, even when ownership has transferred. Having said that, I haven't actually seen it written down anywhere on official documentation nor, even if true in practice, does it mean that Leica NJ will do so. At best, it will mean shipping stuff to Germany for warranty repair.

  38. #138
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The forum is just providing ad space. Deals are between buyers and sellers, including price, warranty, and whatever else (sales tax?). Others shouldn't comment on ads pro or con. Doesn't that about make things as simple as can be?
    Pretty much sums it up
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  39. #139
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Yes except when you know the ad contains false information ...like the promise of warranty coverage that doesn t exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The forum is just providing ad space. Deals are between buyers and sellers, including price, warranty, and whatever else (sales tax?). Others shouldn't comment on ads pro or con. Doesn't that about make things as simple as can be?

  40. #140
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Yes except when you know the ad contains false information ...like the promise of warranty coverage that doesn t exist.
    Roger I am simple not going to make a policy on warranties. That is a buyers due diligence to find that out as there are so many OEMs out there with different policies. Simply put this is not about Leica alone. Theses are buyer and sellers issues and no one is going to guarantee these issues on my side of the fence on any forum or sale site. First order of business is GetDPI or any other forum will protect itself from legal issues. Sorry but areas like this we just don't get into nor would any other forum. Our rules pretty much spell this out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  41. #141
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Just to be clear from our B&S rules


    *** First, understand GetDPI.com offers this as a free service for our members and makes no warranties or implications regarding the veracity of the posters or items listed for sale, as such USE OF THIS FORUM IS AT YOUR OWN RISK!
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  42. #142
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    So let's all agree to some basic rules (suggestions, whatever) that seem to keep coming up:

    1) No commenting in FS threads, good or bad. Legitimate questions that may benefit other potential buyersl (e.g. "What's the date code?") should be okay.

    2) No price policing, which we know about. Let's try a little harder to bite our tongues (myself included). We'll let this "free market" thing play out. No "what a great price" or "that price is ludicrous" posts...

    3) No "atta boys" and "he's a swell dude." posts. If a seller needs any "boosting" then let it be through the feedback thread - that means more anyway.

    4) Buyers are responsible for doing their homework, any details of the deal such as warranties, etc. are up to them and the seller to figure out. If it's not in writing somewhere, assume it ain't.

    5) If something really stinks, report the post. Let the moderators do what moderators do. You did your part, they'll take a look and do theirs.

    Let's cut the mods some slack on this now and try to return to cooler things, like posting photos. We've all vented now I think?

    Obviously we can't change the way people do business. But if you do some homework on a seller you can probably form your own conclusions and choose whether or not you wish to do business with them. We need an "ignore" button.

    Anyway, group hug. Rock on, Guy and gang. Thanks for all that is GetDPI.

  43. #143
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    You nailed it very well and to add we are a friendly community and that truly is the GetDPI way and shall always be. The owners and mods work very hard to make it that way along with the great members that we have. It's a team folks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  44. #144
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    Free service in jeopardy?


    Quote Originally Posted by NomadicTy View Post

    (...) BTW, kudos to Guy and gang for allowing this open discussion.


    huh … I thought Kristian (leicashot) was banned for just opening the discussion … ??




  45. #145
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post

    Bob,

    With all due respect, I think Leicashot was only suggesting that the FS thread in question, had moved away from the original intention and thought that a moderator should intervene not soley because of pricing, but because of the tone some were taking, IMO. I think (leicashot's) inputs were valuable and thought provoking, his inputs were a great contribution from a professional perspective and should be considered a valuable asset to this community.
    Most people are very respectable here, it shows the integrity of this "community", which to me, is the key word. When I see another post on another forum from a GetDPI member whose name I recognize, i'm like hey, I know you! This is essential for the sense of trust that has become the hallmark of GetDPI... The very fact that this discussion is taking place is because of this sense of community, but we also want to freely express our opinions respectfully, without the thought of being banned either.

    (...)

    + 1

    I think banning policy is a far more serious problem than prices and price comments.

    If I recall correctly the very make of the GetDPI forum and the following exodus to this forum originates from the macho and dictatorial banning practice on the Fred Miranda forum (FM forum).
    At least that was what made me leave FM and follow Guy and Jack to GetDPI.

    This is all so sadly déjà vu.

    So please free Kristian (leicashot) from the ban, I simply don’t get it how and why he deserves this treatment.

    ~Steen

  46. #146
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Afaik, it has always been difficult to mix business with friendship. The B&S seems to upset more folk than any other area on here, and probably causes the mods more effort than the rest of it put together. Imho, it adds nothing to the Getdpi forum itself, and by association it drags down the quality standing of the rest of the forum.

    Whatever rules are added/changed to B&S, it will need some moderating to enforce them. Why would you expect an unpaid person to want to get involved in sorting out disputes between folk who are trying to make/save money on a deal? Whichever way it goes, it results in at least one person being upset. Also, in particular for high value items, I would be concerned about the legal consequences of various scenarios that could develop.

    I believe it would be best for Getdpi that the free B&S was removed.

    Best wishes,

    Ray

  47. #147
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Folks,
    for those who are looking at this from a fairness point of view, note that we have limited resources to manage this forum. Those folks have day jobs and treat this as a totally volunteer effort.
    I wish that the forum software indicated the length of a ban. Instead it just says "banned".
    We have spent many hours collectively this week moderating the B/S forum and we really do not have the time for it.
    It reminds me os a riot of sorts when once and awhile a popular issue of substance or otherwise, gets blown out of proportion and generates a tremendous amount of comment.
    The B/S section, has several special rules which go along with its nature. these rules are being enforced.
    We use techniques that range from gentle persuasion through yellow cards (infractions) to temporary bans to permanent bans.
    Just so that you are all aware of our policy, an individual who has been given an infraction, if another infraction is earned within the infraction period will be given a temporary ban. Repeated offenders are subject to a permanent ban.
    I would rather not to have to do this but it seems to be the most effective technique at my disposal.
    This thread has run its course, and is being locked.
    thanks for your kind understanding.
    -bob

  48. #148
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Ray well said and the issues at hand and my main concern. I'm still noodling on all of this. There has been way too much chatter going on in theses ads lately and even as innocent as some have been or some would think there have been, it's been a major issue with other members and the mods. Theses are ads between buyers and sellers and everyone else needs to stay off them. Folks simple don't understand all that happens in these ads. This section is not part of the forum threads themselves and discussions are not to be made in them except for the explicit questions between buyer and seller. Not sure why this just is not clear and a extremely simple rule we have that for some reason people cannot follow. To me it's pretty sad and also pretty sad to see some hug the rules line pretty close to the edge. I know every trick in the book on this stuff on buy and sell forums and sorry folks you cannot fool me. Don't try is my advice.

    We will continue as we are today but I make no promises on this being free for much longer if these issues keep clouding the whole site. Ray hit the nail on the head and my biggest concern is this is effecting the whole site. I do promise you this that will not happen on my watch and if we need to make a drastic change than it will be done to avoid that. As owners that is Jacks and my main role here and we will do whatever it takes to be the GetDPI way. Thanks for your support
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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