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Thread: Free service in jeopardy?

  1. #1
    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Free service in jeopardy?

    This is in response to Bob's response to my comment below, regarding all the talk on a certain member's 'FOR SALE' thread whereby members are objecting to extremely high asking prices on certain Leica products for sale.

    - My question is how is this jeopardizing the 'free' service? Will charging for this service ensure that people don't voice their opinions about such topics? I am not condoning what members have been posting, but am puzzled by this comment, and wondering if it's an excuse to implement a charging system due to the current popularity of the SALE part of this forum.

    Comments?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leicashot
    why the mods have not intervened I don't know. I'm staying outta this one


    because we do not look at every thread 24/7.
    It is getting really old especially concerning Leica sales.
    This behavior in general may be jeopardizing this free service.
    -bob

  2. #2
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    7 day ban issued for questioning the action of a moderator.
    who is next?
    thanks
    -bob

  3. #3
    richard.L
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    you don't have to ban me.... bye ..

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    So that folks understand me.
    This is a volunteer effort.
    If it gets to be too much work moderating the buy and sell forum we will just shut it down.
    If there are other way than that to keep it civil we may explore them too.
    thanks for your kind understanding.

    -bob

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Then don't waste your time on the classifieds here.

    La Vida Leica has a classifieds section too; the difference being the lack of price gouging as seen here.

  6. #6
    GroovyGeek
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Many forums have explicit "no price policing" rules. It is not the moderator's job to police the FS forum, nor should members take it upon themselves to be vigilantes for the benefit of all. If someone is asking a ridiculous price just let it be. Buyers need to do their own homework. The only time mods should intervene is if there is a) uncivil behavior or b) potential scam going on. One useful thing NikonCafe has done is shut off replies in the FS forum. This eliminates the spurious traffic such as "great lens free bump" or discussions on the merits of the hardware that do not belong on this board.

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I understand the rules (I think) and try to abide by them. But I don't understand the notion that there's something wrong (as opposed to against the rules) with saying that a price seems high, or that the item is available new for less than is asked. If I have a friend who's looking for a lens, I'd certainly warn him or her that a seller is asking too much or that the lens is available for less elsewhere. Yet there are people who think it's wrong to do the same thing on an internet forum, some of whose readers I consider to be friends.

    I understand that the mods can't be expected to deal with this sort of issue, but don't understand the view of many members that we should view the internet as a jungle, and shouldn't offer advise or protect people who might otherwise be taken advantage of.

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    And another thing: I agree that the "great price" bumps are problematic. If I can't say "stupid price," the seller's friends or others who may have an axe to grind shouldn't be telling everyone "what a great deal."

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    And another thing: I agree that the "great price" bumps are problematic. If I can't say "stupid price," the seller's friends or others who may have an axe to grind shouldn't be telling everyone "what a great deal."
    Agreed. But this is symptomatic of the "ol' boys club" here.

    Popular member A posts a FS thread. Members B, C and D jump in to say, "what a great guy, his gear is pristine."

    It's one thing to let potential buyers know that the OP isn't just someone out of the blue with no history posting stuff for sale (i.e. they know them on another forum). But to "pump up" the ad, perhaps to boost a friend's sale or to make a price seem more "reasonable" is wrong. Especially with more senior members, that have an established record here as opposed to 1-post n00bs.

    GetDPI is the most expensive place on the Internet for used Leica gear, bar none (except for maybe a few infamous 'bay sellers). I know what stuff is worth, and some of these asking prices are lunacy. And when I see someone post and repost a FS thread, jacking up the price $2k in the process, I call bullsh!t.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    If there are other way than that to keep it civil we may explore them too.
    thanks for your kind understanding.

    -bob
    No sales above retail...at least here on DPI. Not questioning a seller's right to sell for what the market will bear...just where he does it. Jack and Guy (and the mods) have put a lot of effort into giving this forum a "family spirit" (for lack of a better description). And some of these sales are inconsistent with that spirit. Just my opinion...that nobody asked for

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Retail where and in what currency and when? With or without local taxes and shipping?
    For gear that is in demand a higher price may actually be justified. Collector stuff is another problem and some of Leica's stuff IS collector stuff right out of the chute.
    It is a problem for me, frankly, as a moderator.
    We operate on a set of rules and also try to add a bit of "do what is right" but that is real tough call sometimes.
    -bob

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Agree. Jack and I are both on vacation and will have a sit down together on this stuff going forward but it's apparent all this comes from Leica sales and some of this stuff is getting out of hand. My advice stay out of the sales of these items if your not interested in buying them . Why get your dander up for no reason and honestly it's getting on everyone's nerves no matter which side of the fence you think about all of this. It keeps up I will shut it down in a heart beat until we come up with a better solution and this very well may turn into a pay solution for B&S which really goes against the spirit of this forum and our desire to have this section of the forum because this stuff eventually pours directly into the threads and posts in other parts of the site. This is what we don't want and my main reason to act accordingly and our mods. actions in these areas. There is much more than meets the eye in all of this and is not just sitting on the B&s area but affecting the site.

    As part owner of this site trust me this will come to a final solution that is best for this site.
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    And another thing: I agree that the "great price" bumps are problematic. If I can't say "stupid price," the seller's friends or others who may have an axe to grind shouldn't be telling everyone "what a great deal."
    I've been deleting those great price posts when I see them.

  14. #14
    Member patashnik's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Disable replies altogether.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by patashnik View Post
    Disable replies altogether.
    A lot of good questions get asked that help all of the users on the buy sell forum. You can learn a lot.

    Look there really aren't big problems right now except on Leica gear where clearly there is a demand/supply imbalance. The buy/sell forum has worked fine for several years now until more recently when the prices of the lenses has skyrocketed.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Perhaps we ought to ask folks who want to sell "new only tested" gear in the commercial vendor forum.
    -bob

    p.s.
    just so you know, this is a real pita for moderators too.
    Some folks follow the rules,
    Some folks don't and get carded
    Some folks don't give up and get banned

  17. #17
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    This isn t a moderator issue. Members should be discouraged from posting in a seller offer...unless they are asking the seller for details.

    No comments about price ,the item or the seller should be made in the seller post. No observations whatsoever.

    Members should be able to list at any price under any terms they want.

    Posts that take on a life of there own should just be deleted.

    That makes it pretty easy And puts the work back on the original poster.

  18. #18
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Roger the last part is essential that the seller has control of their sale and more important their thread . It gets out of hand than they should REPORT it we will lock or delete it than repost it in a new thread. Bottom line take control of your sale. Also if your not buying than please folks leave your comments at the door. This is NOT the forum and I said this before it is classified ads and any discussion on a item outside of info on the item itself for purchase reasons than take it into the forum threads. There really should be minimal posts on the B&S area. It is a classified ad and should be strictly treated as such. Folks also need to understand no one is above the rules here either including myself. There here for a reason and if you get a note from me or the mods. There IS a reason for it and trust me no one is above being banned or any other disciplinary action, trust me none of us on the other side here want to play the bad guy but we will when you push it beyond what is best for this forum. We really are very nice people on this side of the fence but be warned you break the rules we follow through.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I'm going back to vacation mode but truthfully I am very disturbed that this forum is being used for price gouging of Leica items and worse we are being recognized as the most expensive among other forums. Fair warning all eyes are on this now.
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm going back to vacation mode but truthfully I am very disturbed that this forum is being used for price gouging of Leica items and worse we are being recognized as the most expensive among other forums. Fair warning all eyes are on this now.
    You know what, if someone is going to buy a lens costing more than $5K and doesn't do their homework to understand pricing and understanding supply demand perhaps that is their own problem.

    In addition, nobody knows what the final selling prices of these lenses turns out to be. Asking price is one thing. The negotiation that happens through PM's is not public. So, we really don't know what prices are actually being paid for these lenses.

    Finally, the best way to reform the sellers trying to make a "stupid" amount of profit is to ignore them. They will either drop the price or go elsewhere.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Don Hutton's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Terry

    IMO, not discouraging price gouging here is a slippery slope to who knows where. And while I fully respect the free market, the price comparisons which get made are often misleading (like last sale on Ebay was X - never any mention of the substantial fees the the seller had to pay Ebay and Paypal). There's already been a pretty flagrant and seemingly successful fraud completed on this B&S list recently. I personally have done a whole bunch of very happy deals here, so I'd hate to see this sub-forum disappear, but it does seem that the B&S forum of late seems to be the preserve of folks using the B&S forum heavily without ever having contributed to a different sub-forum to this site in any other way. They list every item they have separately and bounce them almost hourly under various guises. Some of them are obviously in the trade too.

    Back in the day, this was a great place to pick up some good deals on whatever toys Guy and Jack had bought on the spur of the moment; now we have to wade through all this other stuff...!

  22. #22
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The members can discourage price gouging by simply ignoring the sale.

    Look I understand your points but as you said it is a slippery slope. Would you think differently of someone selling a 35lux for a profit vs someone selling the titanium limited edition?

    I don't disagree with your comments about ebay fees etc. but someone willing to spend on these lenses ought to be doing their own due diligence and if they are that naive I would question why they are buying on a forum to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hutton View Post
    Terry

    IMO, not discouraging price gouging here is a slippery slope to who knows where. And while I fully respect the free market, the price comparisons which get made are often misleading (like last sale on Ebay was X - never any mention of the substantial fees the the seller had to pay Ebay and Paypal). There's already been a pretty flagrant and seemingly successful fraud completed on this B&S list recently. I personally have done a whole bunch of very happy deals here, so I'd hate to see this sub-forum disappear, but it does seem that the B&S forum of late seems to be the preserve of folks using the B&S forum heavily without ever having contributed to a different sub-forum to this site in any other way. They list every item they have separately and bounce them almost hourly under various guises. Some of them are obviously in the trade too.

    Back in the day, this was a great place to pick up some good deals on whatever toys Guy and Jack had bought on the spur of the moment; now we have to wade through all this other stuff...!

  23. #23
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Maybe I can't remember what the rules are when joining, but why not make the B&S forum accessible only to members with X amount of posts or X amount of membership time? That would go one step towards encouraging respectable participation.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Very simple we have folks that are outstanding members or workshop participants that maybe only have a few posts so what number do you use 10 , 20 , 30 or 100. If we went to 100 you know how many folks we would leave off that list. Simply not a fair way to do this based on post counts. Btw the rules are posted right on the top of the B&S forum take a moment and read them for yourself, this goes for everyone. Be informed

    Also many great suggestions on this stuff from many members and we appreciate all of them but many times there is another side of the coin to consider. I know I bounce a lot of these around within the mods. Ourselves and I get responses back on the downside I did not think about. Just happened today actually. Lol

    We are trying our best and frankly this section is 95 percent totally on track, it's the 5 percent that makes dirt into mud. And yes it's not fun for us to be looking like jerks when we are trying to make this a 100 percent on track. Someone has to be the bad guy in all of this. So if you need to be pissed at anyone let it be me, I can take it trust me. Leave my mods. Alone they are volunteers and it is not always pleasant to deal with this stuff. You got a bitch you know my e-mail.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Okay I'm having a stressful day. Lol

    Hey I'm sitting next to 4 hot ladies on the beach and Nancy on the other side of me. I can only look one way so long before I get my *** kicked. Talk about stress. Lol

    Sent from my iPhone
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay I'm having a stressful day. Lol

    Hey I'm sitting next to 4 hot ladies on the beach and Nancy on the other side of me. I can only look one way so long before I get my *** kicked. Talk about stress. Lol

    Sent from my iPhone
    My kind of stressful day

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Right on, Guy.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Thanks Guy, Jack, Terry, Bob and the other moderators for the great work on the GetDPI site.

    I have wanted to comment about an ad on a few occasions but the simple fact is that if I am not going to buy an item then I need to just let it alone.

    Having successfully bought and sold on the 'Gear FS or WTB' I would hate to see it changed to accommodate the actions of so few.

    Thanks again . . . . .
    Last edited by seakayaker; 5th August 2011 at 21:37.

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    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    The forums are a community, and I am concerned that we will lose this great asset if it morphs from a community where trust is important to one that is taken over by people including commercial people who just buy to resell at higher than new prices. Now I know what caveat emptor means and that you need to be careful as a buyer. But I also know that if the seller is a regular here it is a hell of a lot better than the anonymity of ebay, and if the seller here is a newbie looking to unload a hard to get lens, my own instincts would to "just say no". I don't think there is a perfect solution but I do think that the reputation of this forum has been undermined and while I can understand the reluctance of the mods to impose some minimal posting requirement in order to post a for sale, imho, it is a better solution than charging. I don't see any way to price police. The solution has to be at the front door.
    Last edited by weinschela; 6th August 2011 at 04:57.
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    One of the things that I don't think has been mentioned is all those people who get on forums like this expecting to get something for nothing. Ok, something for way below the market price. It even happens on Ebay, somebody sends you a low ball offer and then sounds offended when you don't give the item for a price that they come very close to demanding. I'm not crazy about people who ask more than list price, especially for an item they just got for list price. I'm even less crazy about dealers who ask more than list for items you know they got for wholesale. A particular Voigtlander dealer comes to mind. However, nobody makes anybody buy from those people. Any idiot can ask anything that he wants. Do you have to buy from him? Uh, no.The main issue here is that people comment about it on the FS threads. I understand the irritation but those comments may well make everybody else suffer as we're seeing in this discussion. If you don't like the price, don't buy and don't comment. While the price may seem out of line to you, it may not seem out of line to the seller and if you're the seller, you don't want somebody to trash your sale. If you have a comment, make it in a PM. If they're out of line, the fact that nobody buys will speak for itself. If you foolishly but something for a lot more than it's worth, who's at fault? Do your homework before you jump. It ain't rocket science and I don't see very many people on any of these forums who appear to be low on the IQ scale. Even in the rare event that they might be, it's not our job to hold their hand. If in doubt, I'm sure there are any number of people who would be glad to help a newbie out if they were asked. I would far rather see public commentary closed (ala Ebay) than to have the service taken away or be charged for it. I really think, though, that if the price police would just shut up, the market will take care of itself.

    The mods have struck a good balance from what I've seen and I don't envy their job. It's easy to see where they could get tired of it and just say to hell with it, let's shut it off. I hope that doesn't happen. I've bought a number of items at decent prices from good people on here. A little self control people, frustrated as you may get, is called for and I hope everyone will exercise it.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    It would be very sad to me to see this forum compromised by a buy and sell flap.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by weinschela View Post
    The forums are a community, and I am concerned that we will lose this great asset if it morphs from a community where trust is important to one that is taken over by people including commercial people who just buy to resell at higher than new prices. Now I know what caveat emptor means and that you need to be careful as a buyer. But I also know that if the seller is a regular here it is a hell of a lot better than the anonymity of ebay, and if the seller here is a newbie looking to unload a hard to get lens, my own instincts would to "just say no". I don't think there is a perfect solution but I do think that the reputation of this forum has been undermined and while I can understand the reluctance of the mods to impose some minimal posting requirement in order to post a for sale, imho, it is a better solution than charging. I don't see any way to price police. The solution has to becat the front door.
    What is the problem with simply ignoring new sellers that have added nothing to the community?

    I understand what everyone is saying about preserving community but again I say why can't everyone just do the obvious, ignore them.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombii View Post
    One of the things that I don't think has been mentioned is all those people who get on forums like this expecting to get something for nothing. Ok, something for way below the market price. It even happens on Ebay, somebody sends you a low ball offer and then sounds offended when you don't give the item for a price that they come very close to demanding. I'm not crazy about people who ask more than list price, especially for an item they just got for list price. I'm even less crazy about dealers who ask more than list for items you know they got for wholesale. A particular Voigtlander dealer comes to mind. However, nobody makes anybody buy from those people. Any idiot can ask anything that he wants. Do you have to buy from him? Uh, no.The main issue here is that people comment about it on the FS threads. I understand the irritation but those comments may well make everybody else suffer as we're seeing in this discussion. If you don't like the price, don't buy and don't comment. While the price may seem out of line to you, it may not seem out of line to the seller and if you're the seller, you don't want somebody to trash your sale. If you have a comment, make it in a PM. If they're out of line, the fact that nobody buys will speak for itself. If you foolishly but something for a lot more than it's worth, who's at fault? Do your homework before you jump. It ain't rocket science and I don't see very many people on any of these forums who appear to be low on the IQ scale. Even in the rare event that they might be, it's not our job to hold their hand. If in doubt, I'm sure there are any number of people who would be glad to help a newbie out if they were asked. I would far rather see public commentary closed (ala Ebay) than to have the service taken away or be charged for it. I really think, though, that if the price police would just shut up, the market will take care of itself.

    The mods have struck a good balance from what I've seen and I don't envy their job. It's easy to see where they could get tired of it and just say to hell with it, let's shut it off. I hope that doesn't happen. I've bought a number of items at decent prices from good people on here. A little self control people, frustrated as you may get, is called for and I hope everyone will exercise it.
    Well said. Thank you.

  34. #34
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hutton View Post
    Terry

    IMO, not discouraging price gouging here is a slippery slope to who knows where. And while I fully respect the free market, the price comparisons which get made are often misleading (like last sale on Ebay was X - never any mention of the substantial fees the the seller had to pay Ebay and Paypal). There's already been a pretty flagrant and seemingly successful fraud completed on this B&S list recently. I personally have done a whole bunch of very happy deals here, so I'd hate to see this sub-forum disappear, but it does seem that the B&S forum of late seems to be the preserve of folks using the B&S forum heavily without ever having contributed to a different sub-forum to this site in any other way. They list every item they have separately and bounce them almost hourly under various guises. Some of them are obviously in the trade too.

    Back in the day, this was a great place to pick up some good deals on whatever toys Guy and Jack had bought on the spur of the moment; now we have to wade through all this other stuff...!
    There have been some good posts in this thread even though opinions vary. My belief is that its important to consider all points of view.

    Personally I feel Don's post contains some very important points that reflect my own. Profits and pricing items that reflect current market prices is understandable, but as Don expressed, other factors come into play and they too are equally important to the success and viability of an excellent site like Getdpi....which usually has its own unique identity which many find both comfortable and refreshing.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 5th August 2011 at 20:20.

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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    All very good points. There should be the ability to do exchanges here without interference. But you will always get someone who thinks they are carrying the flag for the oppressed or something and have to comment on price. The seller needs to report them to get their post deleted. I believe the seller should be the monitor. If they feel a comment is not right report it.

    Regarding high prices. Who says the buyer has to pay it. Too many people are afraid to negotiate. I just purchased two lenses here this week. I did not pay asking price. I got a good deal. If I do not get what I think is a fair price I do not buy. It is my responsibility, not the mods. I agree there are those who come here looking for something for nothing too. Don't sell to them. It is hard to stop dealers who do not reveal themselves.

  36. #36
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    A quick thought or two...

    This is a "public" forum, but it is not a democracy, per se. There really is nothing that says that the B/S forum can't have a different rule set than the other sub-fora. Firstly... devil's advocate (for those that would disagree with me). A minimum post count, before one is able to sell here, may seem a bit off-putting... but in actuality it may establish that this forum, the greater GetDPI presence, is about community and not commerce... and that in order to sell here, one needs to be a part of the community for a bit. This is for everyone's sake. Framed that way, it only says that we members care about one another and wish to know who we're dealing with when it comes to parting with our hard-earned monies and gear. I assume the B/S makes no significant money for the GetDPI admins as all sales are between private parties. I would ask that they weigh the amount of time needed to admin the B/S forum versus the other fora (which seem to be the heart and soul of GetDPI). Is is worth it? I can't answer that as I honestly don't know.

    I'm not leaning one way or the other yet, but I do think it important to realize that it's not the end of the world if someone is not able to sell here. Who's to say that certain part-time members can't petition for access to B/S. This is not a democracy.

    If the B/S forum somehow becomes an entity that dictates how the whole GetDPI community is seen in cyberspace, then it would seem that indeed there needs to be some thinking done.

    I totally understand the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" ideal... and agree with it to a large extent... but I do believe it prudent to see that the B/S forum is now sometimes operating in a different manner than the other (congenial, polite, and personal) sub-fora. There is much here, intent-wise, that would not be put up with were it present in the other areas of GetDPI (emphasis on intention).

    We're in a bit of gray area with GetDPI continuing to grow... and the rest of GetDPI is, indeed, being colored (good or bad?) by the anonymity of the B/S forum.

    ETA: I reiterate that I have little personal opinion on this matter... I rarely buy here (lack of funds, lol!)... but all viewpoints should be taken into consideration.

  37. #37
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine View Post
    All very good points. There should be the ability to do exchanges here without interference. But you will always get someone who thinks they are carrying the flag for the oppressed or something and have to comment on price. The seller needs to report them to get their post deleted. I believe the seller should be the monitor. If they feel a comment is not right report it.

    Regarding high prices. Who says the buyer has to pay it. Too many people are afraid to negotiate. I just purchased two lenses here this week. I did not pay asking price. I got a good deal. If I do not get what I think is a fair price I do not buy. It is my responsibility, not the mods. I agree there are those who come here looking for something for nothing too. Don't sell to them. It is hard to stop dealers who do not reveal themselves.
    I totally agree. The mods do a great job, especially given their pay

    I vehemently disagree with price policing on sale threads - let people ask whatever price they want and if you don't like it, don't buy. Simple. I've seen for sale threads from friends ruined by pricing comments and comparisons on other sites and it really isn't fair, even when justified! If someone asks for an unreasonable price then let the market decide.

    Like many here I've bought and sold many times to folks here and it's been nothing but a pleasurable experience. I hope it stays this way and we can keep away the untrustworthy element that may be attracted to seemingly good pickings here amongst folks who are able and prepared to buy high value items here.

    Btw, I always take a look at a sellers (& buyers) posting history before I deal with them. If they are not known to me and all they ever do is sell here and do not contribute to the forums in any way then I'm equally unlikely to deal with them. I don't advocate the "no buy/sell access until you've posted x posts" approach that certain other sites use - I find that incredibly oppressive as a buyer personally and where do you set the threshold? I don't know.

    My $.02 ... And worth every penny.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  38. #38
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Puttin' my $0.02 in for what it's worth. I have had THE BEST buying and selling experiences here at GetDPI. The gang here is, nearly without exception, trustworthy, friendly, and as a result of the forum and even as a result of buy-sell, I have made some great friends in the photo world.

    I think that the Mods have done a remarkable job keeping the service open for use, friendly, and well received. They have a hard, and thankless job, and they do it supremely well.

    As for me, I feel that I can make my own choices with regards to whom I should buy and sell with. I always ask for people to present a record of good standing somewhere (prefereably here), and my partners in sale have asked the same of me. Regarding "pricing", it's on all of us to set the market. I personally don't like to upmark items, but that doesn't necessarily dictate how others may choose to do their business. If an item is priced too-high, I simply ignore it and move on. If I have an item that I desire at a certain price-point, I post WTB ads, and they have, for the most part, been met by gracious individuals who have granted my wishes. I find the entire experience to be well moderated, not intrusive, and constructive. I agree with the mod's sentiments entirely that there shouldn't be price policing here. Simply ignoring an overpriced item should be a message enough to the seller, if there happens to be someone out there who chooses a high price on a lens, then kudos to all, as both supply and demand have been met....

    I, for one, plan to continue to use this service, and I appreciate what you all have done for the photographic community (in my case, Lecia).

    Thumbs up, kudos, good job guys, rock on!!! All good!
    Ashwin Rao
    Seattle, WA
    My Photography

  39. #39
    Member voe's Avatar
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    Suggestion to the moderators at this forum.

    To the moderators at this forum: I suggest that all for sale threads be allowed only posts by the original poster. And all potential buyers communicate by sending PM to the seller. This way you will not have to moderate sale threads.

  40. #40
    Super Duper
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by zombii View Post
    One of the things that I don't think has been mentioned is all those people who get on forums like this expecting to get something for nothing. Ok, something for way below the market price. It even happens on Ebay, somebody sends you a low ball offer and then sounds offended when you don't give the item for a price that they come very close to demanding. I'm not crazy about people who ask more than list price, especially for an item they just got for list price. I'm even less crazy about dealers who ask more than list for items you know they got for wholesale. A particular Voigtlander dealer comes to mind. However, nobody makes anybody buy from those people. Any idiot can ask anything that he wants. Do you have to buy from him? Uh, no.The main issue here is that people comment about it on the FS threads. I understand the irritation but those comments may well make everybody else suffer as we're seeing in this discussion. If you don't like the price, don't buy and don't comment. While the price may seem out of line to you, it may not seem out of line to the seller and if you're the seller, you don't want somebody to trash your sale. If you have a comment, make it in a PM. If they're out of line, the fact that nobody buys will speak for itself. If you foolishly but something for a lot more than it's worth, who's at fault? Do your homework before you jump. It ain't rocket science and I don't see very many people on any of these forums who appear to be low on the IQ scale. Even in the rare event that they might be, it's not our job to hold their hand. If in doubt, I'm sure there are any number of people who would be glad to help a newbie out if they were asked. I would far rather see public commentary closed (ala Ebay) than to have the service taken away or be charged for it. I really think, though, that if the price police would just shut up, the market will take care of itself.

    The mods have struck a good balance from what I've seen and I don't envy their job. It's easy to see where they could get tired of it and just say to hell with it, let's shut it off. I hope that doesn't happen. I've bought a number of items at decent prices from good people on here. A little self control people, frustrated as you may get, is called for and I hope everyone will exercise it.
    Exactly!

    IMO, this is a tempest in a teapot caused by a temporary shortage of Leica M lenses which in turn was caused by the success of the M9.

    This is by far the best place to buy and sell on the internet ... mostly between people who know one another because of this forum. I now only buy and sell here for that very reason.

    Highest prices anywhere? Who knows if that is true. What I do know to be true is that in general, the buyers and sellers are the highest quality themselves. They usually know their stuff and transactions are friendly and trustworthy. If I don't know someone I either don't sell or buy from them, or I take precautionary measures and use very detailed communications.

    The notion of members policing the B/S section to preserve the "family forum feel" is BS ... it is no one's business but the seller's. If a potential buyer is really a pal, then PM them any opinion you may have. Otherwise ... leave it to the market to answer whether the price is indeed out of bounds.

    If a buyer posts a ridiculous price ... the reaction should be total silence. If someone buys it ... oh well.

    Just leave the B/S section alone ... it'll level out by itself.

    -Marc

  41. #41
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    Re: Suggestion to the moderators at this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by voe View Post
    To the moderators at this forum: I suggest that all for sale threads be allowed only posts by the original poster. And all potential buyers communicate by sending PM to the seller. This way you will not have to moderate sale threads.
    Great idea. They do it that way on the rolexforums and it seems to work fine. Not sure how easy that functionality (or lack of) can be implemented here.

  42. #42
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    I have been a very happy buyer of gear on this forum I don't know exactly how much, maybe over 100K of transactions - and have only had one bad experience - which I take total responsibility for. On two other occasions there was a problem with what I bought and the sellers wanted to pay for any cost of fixing or offered to take the item back.

    I would never buy again from a person who isn't a regular or cant be vouched for by someone privately and in breaking this rule I made my mistake.

    The notion of policing prices is anathema to a market as Marc and other s have said one way or another.

    Leave things as they are.

    If you don't like the price dont buy it - simple.

  43. #43
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    seems like the only problem is when someone comments the pricing is too high, thus undermining the seller's effort.

    Uhh..this is the internet, not some backroom house of deals

    I say let it go un-monitored or limit responses to pm's only

  44. #44
    Member Farnz's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Let the market speak for itself.

    Pete.

  45. #45
    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    What is the problem with simply ignoring new sellers that have added nothing to the community?

    I understand what everyone is saying about preserving community but again I say why can't everyone just do the obvious, ignore them.
    Point well-taken. I won't buy from a new poster, but that has nothing to do with price and everything to do with trust.
    Alan

    Selection of work: http://weinschela.zenfolio.com

  46. #46
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay I'm having a stressful day. Lol

    Hey I'm sitting next to 4 hot ladies on the beach and Nancy on the other side of me. I can only look one way so long before I get my *** kicked. Talk about stress. Lol

    Sent from my iPhone
    Testing Sensor+ technology, of course! (ok, wrong sensor+)


  47. #47
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Bob,

    With all due respect, I think Leicashot was only suggesting that the FS thread in question, had moved away from the original intention and thought that a moderator should intervene not soley because of pricing, but because of the tone some were taking, IMO. I think (leicashot's) inputs were valuable and thought provoking, his inputs were a great contribution from a professional perspective and should be considered a valuable asset to this community.
    Most people are very respectable here, it shows the integrity of this "community", which to me, is the key word. When I see another post on another forum from a GetDPI member whose name I recognize, i'm like hey, I know you! This is essential for the sense of trust that has become the hallmark of GetDPI... The very fact that this discussion is taking place is because of this sense of community, but we also want to freely express our opinions respectfully, without the thought of being banned either.

    Markets always dictate price.. Reliance within a community equates to trust...

  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Like I have said before no one knows what goes on with the backend to this forum. We NEVER air out our dirty laundry in public. So what you may seem as over reaction in public is simply not the case. We will never let anyone know what really is going on behind closed doors. That is our moderators policy.

    A very old saying never judge a book by it's cover is so true here in regards to what is going on behind the scenes and what we deal with.

    Like I also said you got a issue or a problem with something use the PM system or contact me. I have no problem of being called the asshole here. That is my job.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #49
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Like I have said before no one knows what goes on with the backend to this forum. We NEVER air out our dirty laundry in public. So what you may seem as over reaction in public is simply not the case. We will never let anyone know what really is going on behind closed doors. That is our moderators policy.

    A very old saying never judge a book by it's cover is so true here in regards to what is going on behind the scenes and what we deal with.

    Like I also said you got a issue or a problem with something use the PM system or contact me. I have no problem of being called the asshole here. That is my job.
    Guy,
    I thought that was my job LOL.
    At least I didn't give him a permanent ban, just a cooling off period.
    -bob

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Free service in jeopardy?

    Btw banning someone around here we have control for the longevity of that ban be it 24 hours to life. So maybe the word banning sounds pretty intense or forever it is not the case. Like to say myself not fond of the word myself but honestly for a forum member we really only 1 percent of Time have banned someone for life. Usually it is just a cooling off period. Now spammers get banned imediately and for life. But normal forum members these things may look bad in public but hardly ever the case. Again not fond of the word banning because it sounds permenant which is not the case.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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