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Thread: The end of tolerances reached ?

  1. #51
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    At this point in the evolution, I've gone from evangelist to skeptic. While I can imagine all sorts of innovations and new technologies, I wonder about their true value in advancing the art of photography in any truly meaningful manner.
    Preach it, Brother Marc...

    I often wonder what photography is anymore, so I've decided to just perceive it (personally) as a personal experience that i find enhances the quality of my life. In that view, all of the discussion above is moot... and the heated nature of it meaningless.

    Tolerances, in a pragmatic sense, are a moving target that are incredibly dependent upon the intention of the tool's user. Sally Mann, in those terms, would find this whole discussion humorous... whereas an architectural shooter may not.

    My $.02

    (said as I move to a wooden tripod and a camera with no autofocus)

  2. #52
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    To the main point -- I think the next major step for *MF* manufacturers will be developing a system that does not rely on any form of mechanical shutter. In this way, even if a mirror is still desired, we can get truly vibrationless mirror-up captures. Moreover, I think the need to eliminate vibrations was certainly evident with the move from 9u to 6.8u backs, was even more so with 6u backs, and now with 5.2u backs has become essential.

    There are limits imposed by physics that we are approaching. The best tech lenses are very nearly diffraction limited at optimal apertures already. The 6u sensors to a certain degree and the 5.2u sensors to a greater degree already diffract off-axis light. Tolerances in bodies are now down to a point where thermal expansion is a real issue -- I have seen my infinity change by a few decimal points on my Arca helical between cold mornings and hot afternoons. Aluminum is notably bad here with a high thermal coefficient, so the next body may need to be machined out of something like tungsten. Of course tungsten is extremely heavy, so perhaps having alignment pillars of tungsten or even diamond (very low thermal coefficient) in the assembly will be needed.

    But in the end, the reality is that precision is not and has never been a determinant of separating "good art" from "bad art," nor in my opinion should it ever be. I believe it falls to the artist to know and understand their tools so as to extract the most from them -- but only so far as it aids them in manifesting their vision into their final art product...

    My humble .02,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    With every solution technology makes, it creates two problems.

    As Jack stated, technology is not going to replace the skill of the operator. In many ways, photography is the same today as it was 150 years ago. The equipment has evolved, but it still is simply a collection of compromises. It is the photographer's skill of mitigating those limitations and foibles which is still important.

    Fortunately, the perfect camera will come out tomorrow...

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Jack

    Thank you for the idea with the thermal issue. I think this could be solved by sandwiching with materials of differing expansion factors. I would also see carbon fibre bodies (there was an US maker of carbon fibre view cameras if I remember right - do they still exist ?) .
    I also address the fact that tolerances may change during usage, so I think the only valid focusing for the future is an electronic one, a very exact , high resolution, zoomable viewfinder supplied directly from the chip by a CMOS. By this it would not be of any importance how any focusing points are calibrated or not, the only importance would be 100% plane chip leveling.
    Combine this with Image stabilisation (on the chip see sony) because otherwise the needed exposure times will not to be handled out of hand anymore.
    I am also asking for a standard Highspeed Wlan interface, so that the camera storage and the actual camera can be separate boxes, by choice a portable one or directly to the harddisk of my studio machine.

    So this kind of stuff could be develloped with some money, it´s todays status of technology.

    Come on there must be more thoughts from more people!

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post

    ... I would also see carbon fibre bodies (there was an US maker of carbon fibre view cameras if I remember right - do they still exist ?) .
    Toyo had the 45CF camera which was polycarbonate/carbon fibre construction as a super light field 4x5 camera. I tried one of these a long time ago for a weekend and actually went with a Wista VX instead as I didn't like the rigidity of the Toyo at the time. Btw, I believe you can still buy this. However, time has moved on plus also construction techniques so there's no reason why you couldn't build a MF camera with the same materials better today.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I have not read everything, but wanted to add a few points. As Jack said one main step is to get vibrations down. There really shouldn't be a need for a shutter anymore.

    Another step is to CMOS sensors. Spare me the stuff, like CMOS are behind CCD sensors. It's just BS. If Phase or Hassi found somebody to develope/produce them a large CMOS we would have one in the current backs. However, they haven't and it isn't easy. Sony and Canon would probably love when A company asks them for a batch for thousand CMOS. So this is the hard part to find a way to create good CMOS sensors.

    It is pretty clear that we need them. CCD are at their limits. I would say that pixel level of the IQ180 isn't better than the P65. More like worse. I really DON'T want to see a cramped 100 or 120MP CCD. Give me a 60MP CMOS which hast true live view and offers a slighlty better DR than a d3x and I will buy it.

    Live view is the next step and for that we need CMOS.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    not only live view, but a simple way to field tether (wireless?) to something like an iphone or ipad. take advantage of the I-technology rather than try and duplicate it. doesn't have to be the full file sent over, a jpg view file would be fine

    If all i had for viewing was akin to ye olde 4x5 ground glass, but with zoom...yippee!

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    [QUOTE=Stefan Steib;342437]Jack
    I would also see carbon fibre bodies (there was an US maker of carbon fibre view cameras if I remember right - do they still exist ?) .

    Do you mean the Carbon Infinity? That was from England in the mid 90's, didn't last very long and I don't think they sold or even made many of them.

    Very cool camera though, I wanted one at the time.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I am happy with round 40 megapixels on a tech camera with movements and cant see the need for more than 3 or 4 lenses. I don't print larger than 2 feet by 3 feet and standard prints are 12 X18 inches. So the megapixel war was over for me a few years ago.

    How a lens renders or draws is much more interesting and useful to me than the elephant gun backs now being made and sold to those who need them.

    My holy grail is minimal post processing and very little deviation from a linear raw file.

    Photography is always and will always be about the light - that is what makes something worth printing and hanging.

    as for commercial photography - the faster the internet becomes and the faster computers become and the more convergence that happens between various forms of media - the more important moving images become.

    the real innovation is happening with motion cameras - and RED is just one company doing it.

  10. #60
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    @asf
    yes you are right ! Thank you - I totally forgot, this could only be made by British Engineering ! It´s like my Benbo MK5 Tripod which I use since 25 years and it´s the best tripod ever made. I found images of the carbon infinity here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/edwinfe...0624/lightbox/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/edwinfe...0975/lightbox/

    again it´s interesting although even after 20 years I remember this, I did not buy one (It was really expensive back then), and I regret this. Because at the time it was (and probably still is!) really cool. here is a Google translated link to an article about it:

    http://translate.google.de/translate...y.html&act=url

    and here:
    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ead.php?t=1026

    and in the last one it says what happened: it could not be sold because it was too good......

    Well - probably if all the heartblood and ideas that have already disappeared from the photoindustry could be put back to existing products we could have a really thrilling outlook for new products. This is what I would wish for. Failure is not as bad as never having tried to do it.

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    this really reminds me to something else on Photography tools:

    where has the design idea gone to ? Wasn´t it supposed to be cool to have tools that represent a photographers will to show his customers that he was not "just a guy with some camera" ? Where is the "appleness", the "BraunStyle" in todays photography products ? Something like Italian design , modern industrial studies as many, many are made by young talented designers with fresh ideas ? Something like the Carbon Infinity or here as another example this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X813e...layer_embedded

    http://www.yikebike.com/home

    again: I only see this in Japanese Prototypes, but even the Japanese don´t bring this to the market - so again -are we photographers conservatives ?
    Aren´t we supposed to be creative people looking for new ideas and looks ? Why should our tools look so boring ?

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    To the main point -- I think the next major step for *MF* manufacturers will be developing a system that does not rely on any form of mechanical shutter. In this way, even if a mirror is still desired, we can get truly vibrationless mirror-up captures. Moreover, I think the need to eliminate vibrations was certainly evident with the move from 9u to 6.8u backs, was even more so with 6u backs, and now with 5.2u backs has become essential.

    There are limits imposed by physics that we are approaching. The best tech lenses are very nearly diffraction limited at optimal apertures already. The 6u sensors to a certain degree and the 5.2u sensors to a greater degree already diffract off-axis light. Tolerances in bodies are now down to a point where thermal expansion is a real issue -- I have seen my infinity change by a few decimal points on my Arca helical between cold mornings and hot afternoons. Aluminum is notably bad here with a high thermal coefficient, so the next body may need to be machined out of something like tungsten. Of course tungsten is extremely heavy, so perhaps having alignment pillars of tungsten or even diamond (very low thermal coefficient) in the assembly will be needed.

    But in the end, the reality is that precision is not and has never been a determinant of separating "good art" from "bad art," nor in my opinion should it ever be. I believe it falls to the artist to know and understand their tools so as to extract the most from them -- but only so far as it aids them in manifesting their vision into their final art product...

    My humble .02,


    -Marc

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    this really reminds me to something else on Photography tools:

    where has the design idea gone to ? Wasn´t it supposed to be cool to have tools that represent a photographers will to show his customers that he was not "just a guy with some camera" ? Where is the "appleness", the "BraunStyle" in todays photography products ? Something like Italian design , modern industrial studies as many, many are made by young talented designers with fresh ideas ? Something like the Carbon Infinity or here as another example this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X813e...layer_embedded

    http://www.yikebike.com/home

    again: I only see this in Japanese Prototypes, but even the Japanese don´t bring this to the market - so again -are we photographers conservatives ?
    Aren´t we supposed to be creative people looking for new ideas and looks ? Why should our tools look so boring ?

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Personally, I don't want to be noticed because of my photographic tools. What I want are tools that do my bidding and work every time I pick them up.

    However, if they are also pleasing to the eye, that is a bonus ... just as long as the design doesn't get in the way of purpose. If something functions really well, I often find it grows on you and you come to think of it as "beautiful".

    BTW, I think my Leica S2P is quite beautiful ... on its own, and because it does my bidding and helps me bring ideas to life.

    As to the bike in the video. No thanks ... a tad bit clownish looking for me.


    RE: CMOS sensors in MFD ... I'd have to see it before I believed it. High end/high meg 35mm DSLRs with CMOS sensors is one reason I remain in the MFD with CCD camp. I do NOT like the look produced by any of these CMOS cameras as they are now. I do understand why tech camera and landscape shooters would want CMOS ... for all the do-dads that could be added. Most of which I have absolutely no need for ... and rarely use them even on the cameras I own that do have all those features.

    My wish list is more oriented toward the reality of day-to-day shooting and less to fantasy and additional add-ons that not only cost more, but make the tool more prone to failure.

    I'm with Jack ... get rid of the shutter, stabilize the platform for critical work ... plus, improve the AF on all MFD cameras (my H4D is a good start) ... and spend more of the MFD R&D cash on quality control to even out the reliability of cameras and lenses we buy instead of making us be the last step in quality control for all of this gear. Limit or eliminate sample variation.

    -Marc

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Our camera is something for bringing back fun to highend Photography, using Canon lenses and allowing superwideangles with maximum resolution.
    Why does a photographer (me ) have to build this ? where is the industry in this game ? Couldn´t they have seen what happens and with much more resources do this even better ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Come on there must be more thoughts from more people!
    1) Mechanical processes are specialist.
    2) Electrical (digital) processes are de-centralizing.


    The digital era moves at electric speed which means that processes become non-linear, simultaneous and (most importantly) lack specialty. Lack of specialization blurs the lines between roles that previously had been clearly defined in the mechanical era. "Convergence" is the buzz-word photographers use to describe the de-specialization process that happens with a switch to digital media. There can be no specialization in a purely digital medium. Unique identities are only created through the highly defined roles of the mechanized process. Digital tribalizes as it democratizes. The access and opportunity created by it do not come without the cost of individual identity.

    Corporate identities are also known as "brands." Industry giants like Canon and Nikon were built during the era of mechanical photography. They are highly centralized and were, at one time, really good at creating products that filled specialist roles. These specialist roles are what helped to define their brands. But everything that worked in their favor in the past now works against them. The centralization that was necessary for the mechanical business market is too big and slow to respond to the speed of the digital market and the digital products that they are now forced to make are increasingly non-specialist and difficult to brand.

    The de-centralization favored by the digital business market opens up all kinds of opportunities for small groups and single individuals to fill the role of bringing customers new products. But purely digital products are increasingly non-specialist and difficult to brand in any meaningful way. The best products to customize are still derived from the roles of the mechanical and this is where companies like Alpa enter into the mix. It's possible that this is what Stephan might be referring to in his previous posts as a "hybrid."

    There is no need to question why people, like Stephan, now find themselves in a unique position. A purely digital environment does not allow for the specialization of roles required to create individual identities, but it does make access of opportunity possible through it's process of de-centralization. Meanwhile, purely mechanical environments are too centralized to allow access for single individuals/small groups to compete and innovate quickly, but they do allow the specialization of roles necessary for the creation of unique identities. The "hybrid" is a perfect balance between the democratic access of digital combined with the specialized individuality of the mechanical. It is not something to lament, but is quite simply harmony, and the future of realized art!
    Last edited by Mike M; 14th August 2011 at 04:59. Reason: redundant

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    1) Mechanical processes are specialist.
    2) Electrical (digital) processes are de-centralizing.


    The digital era moves at electric speed which means that processes become non-linear, simultaneous and (most importantly) lack specialty. Lack of specialization blurs the lines between roles that previously had been clearly defined in the mechanical era. "Convergence" is the buzz-word photographers use to describe the de-specialization process that happens with a switch to digital media. There can be no specialization in a purely digital medium. Unique identities are only created through the highly defined roles of the mechanized process. Digital tribalizes as it democratizes. The access and opportunity created by it do not come without the cost of individual identity.

    Individual corporate identities are also known as "brands." Industry giants like Canon and Nikon were built during the era of mechanical photography. They are highly centralized and were, at one time, really good at creating products that filled specialist roles. These specialist roles are what helped to define their individual corporate identities as brands. But everything that worked in their favor in the past now works against them. The centralization that was necessary for the mechanical business market is too big and slow to respond to the speed of the digital market and the digital products that they are now forced to make are increasingly becoming non-specialist and difficult to brand.

    The de-centralization process of the digital business market opens up all kinds of opportunities for small groups and single individuals to fill the role of bringing customers new products. But purely digital products are increasingly non-specialist which makes it difficult to brand them in any meaningful way. The best products to customize and brand are still derived from mechanical roles and this is where companies like Alpa enter into the mix. In a seemingly ironic twist of fate, the democratization of the digital market favors small business models while at the same time requires the individualization of the mechanical for branding. This is what Stephan might be referring to in his previous posts as a "hybrid."

    There is no need to question why people, like Stephan, now find themselves in a unique position. A purely digital environment does not allow for the specialization of roles required to create unique individual identities, but it does make access of opportunity possible through it's process of de-centralization. Meanwhile, purely mechanical environments are too centralized to allow access for single individuals and small groups to compete and innovate quickly, but they do allow the specialization of roles necessary for the creation of individual and unique identities. The "hybrid" is a perfect balance between the democratization of digital combined with the individuality of the mechanical. It is not something to lament, but is quite simply harmony, and the future of realized art!
    Mike a lucid and accurate account of the future of design and practise across many many industries..my only disagreement is with the last phrase - because the evolving paradigm is found across all industrial and (now) post industrial economic models..

    for example the dis-economies of scale are now impacting on funds management and financial services...and what is re introducing efficiency are small scale ultra sophisticated and ultra intelligent agents who for the most part don't need and in fact eschew the large business model as a dinosaur..

    the technologies I have now brought in house due to to sophisticated (and now off the shelf) software and cheap hardware - makes even clients redundant in my industry..

    which is the next phase of my organisational development....

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    wow compliments - Mike this reads like an extension of Walter Benjamin´s
    "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction"

    may I ask what is your profession ? Are you into teaching on a University or similar ? Very, very interesting approach and to me very systematical, have to think about this for a while.......;-)

    Greetings from Munich
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Mike a lucid and accurate account of the future of design and practise across many many industries..my only disagreement is with the last phrase - because the evolving paradigm is found across all industrial and (now) post industrial economic models..

    for example the dis-economies of scale are now impacting on funds management and financial services...and what is re introducing efficiency are small scale ultra sophisticated and ultra intelligent agents who for the most part don't need and in fact eschew the large business model as a dinosaur..

    the technologies I have now brought in house due to to sophisticated (and now off the shelf) software and cheap hardware - makes even clients redundant in my industry..

    which is the next phase of my organisational development....
    Thanks Peter - You are describing precisely the power of de-centralizing digital (electrical) processes as they demolish specialist roles. In a mechanized economy, information functions as both a product and a commodity to be traded. Professional occupations are formed to access, interpret and disseminate knowledge. But these types of jobs are only necessary in a specialized economy. Knowledge cannot be centralized in a digital environment which means that information can no longer be packaged as a product. Professions that rely solely on trading knowledge as a commodity begin to evaporate. Certifications and credentials become meaningless. Production, consumption, information and advertising become indistinguishable from one another as de-centralization takes place.

    Commercial photography, like many other professions in a digital economy, should eventually disappear since it's dedicated role is only valuable as part of a sequence involving cooperation with many other fragmented specialists (graphic designers, art directors etc.) Convergence blurs the photographer's identity by forcing him to act as a re-toucher, videographer and designer all at the same time. Clients become "redundant" and cease to exist. Many photographers are already self-financing their own projects in what is being referred to as content production. The photographer turned content producer actually becomes his own client and takes the final step towards total convergence between production and consumption.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    wow compliments - Mike this reads like an extension of Walter Benjamin´s
    "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction"

    may I ask what is your profession ? Are you into teaching on a University or similar ? Very, very interesting approach and to me very systematical, have to think about this for a while.......;-)

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan

    Thanks Stefan...BTW - I'm sorry about spelling your name wrong in my previous post. Yes, I'm definitely familiar with "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Production." My understanding is that Walter Benjamin was associated with Marxist critical theory which was designed to organize roles within mechanization. But he couldn't foresee the destruction of those roles that would come with the digital era. I still find much of what he had to say about photography and it's relationship to other mediums (medium specificity) to be very valuable. My personal story is just that of a regular ole photographer nerd that got into content production back in 1998....so I've had over a decade to think about what digital has done to photography....and honestly...I'm only now starting to make sense of it all lol

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Mike - Thanks for that last one

    >>>The photographer turned content producer actually becomes his own client and takes the final step towards total convergence between production and consumption.>>>

    This is exactly what I´m doing now. And actually if you ask me when did I feel better than today- I´d say never before! I control the content that I want to photograph. I design my own website, I do my own flyers and CI.I had learned this for customers and now it falls into place for what I do for myself and our company now.
    My main tool is the internet, I work internationally, my clients come from all over the planet. This is definitely a complete change of what I did before as a Studio Photographer working for large corporate customers and Advertising agencies.

    BTW I also have some theory to share.
    There is the definiton of systemic noise. It says roughly that a compensation of a fault cannot be done with another faulty (imperfect) value. Instead it will add up and multiply the fault - thus systemic noise.
    Now trying to reach perfection on mechanical tolerances is impossible.
    The system is by itself faulty (see also Rogers article) so the idea of getting better and better tolerances to eliminate the variation is by itself contraproductive. Instead the best way to eliminate noise is to simplify the system and reduce available tolerance causing steps or complications.
    In case of the camera this means reduce it to the bare minimum and expect the outputof a focus calibration to be faulty anyway. But if you can directly control the fault (CMOS with electronic viewfinder and onchip autofocus and visual control) the flaws become meaningless.

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Don't often find myself scratching my head and asking... what the hell are these guys talking about. But this is one of those times I do follow Peter's comments but mostly because he's shared some of this with me offline. I would like to understand better the point you fellows are making...if anyone cares to explain it more simply. Maybe an example or two???

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Don't often find myself scratching my head and asking... what the hell are these guys talking about.
    I'm sort of with you. These speculations about getting to the end of things always interest me, (I remember many thought the 1DsMark 2 would be the end ), but I always remind myself throughout history technology very often finds a way to go one better.

    Too many megapixels for current lenses? Lenses that can't be any sharper? Are you sure? What about sensor technology that goes far beyond what we have today .... how about noise free up to 128,000 ISO? Possible? Probably.

    What about lenses made of more exotic elements that are much sharper than lenses today. Possible? Probably.

    What about a lens that doesn't even use glass? Instead it uses the electromagnetic property of light to record the image? Possible? I have no clue, but I wouldn't rule it out - a friend of mine attended a seminar a few years ago, and this concept was presented there.

    Even with where we are today, what about a sensor that had 240mp, and each 4 sensels worked to record a single pixel of the image. Much like sensor plus, but even better where you have an red, green blue and luminosity sensel for each pixel. No bayer algorithm, just each pixel a pure number. Even with current lenses you might see substantial improvement.

    Of course, you can't disregard computational imaging, Maybe depth of field is something determined after the exposure because everything is sharp (probably possible with a non-optical lens).

    I don't know where it's all going, and I'm decently happy where it is now. Personally I'd like to see what others have discussed ... I would love to use a tech camera that interfaces to my back (what's wrong with a data entry screen so tech camera data could be imbedded in the files metadata, lens, shift, etc. Should be a piece of cake for Phase to do that). But I'm done with the tech camera route until I can get very functional live view, and dependable quality without resorting to extreme data manipulation with LCC's. Give me a terrific Live View that I can focus with as easily as my 5D Mark 2 and I'm probably back, but I have decided I miss way to many opportunities because of the slowness of working with a tech camera, and the slight improvement in quality just doesn't make up for the compositions I'm missing. (This is regrettable, because my tech camera kit is substantially lighter than my DF kit, and it will get heavier as I move to more and more schneider primes).

    It's always fun to try and predict the future ... one reason I love reading Ctein's column over on The Online Photographer. He's had some great articles about what might be coming in the future, based on current technologies being researched today.
    wayne
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Like these discussions!

    More MP are bad? Don't think so!

    There is a limit in MP? We are far away from this with today's pixel sizes.

    Lenses have their diffraction limit? Hmm - sure, but it is not all just black and white, there is a certain range which is still perfectly useable.

    I am sure that the next generation of FF DSLRs will get in the 30-40MP range! Could anyone imagine that 2 years ago?

    There will be more digital sensor concepts without AA filter. What is the the quality difference to today's MFDBs - it melts away!

    I think we should be pretty open to technical changes and breakthroughs which will happen. Which only can be good for all of us, as better quality equipment will become much cheaper for all of us!

    Exciting times ....

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Wayne
    if I repeat the focus of what others and myself said through this thread -

    we know that there must be an actual change of the momentary (MF Tech)camera concept, the lenses do come to a limit, the chips with microlenses do cause color cast combined with these (real focal lenght) wideangles, the CCD´s still lack real highspeed and Live View, further a CCD still needs a shutter which is prone to causing vibrations, the mechanical tolerances will run into a limitation at a certain chipsize /Pixel pitch making classical exact focusing nearly impossible.

    All the technology you are talking about is needed to be implemented - more likely sooner than later. The theory that Mike and Peter (and me) were also discussing is about changing the sociological context of the business model as of how a photographer is using this technology in his work - coming to the limits of the traditional business model and also needing to change the attempt to use his skills professionally.

    That´s about it in some words. (very short version ! ;-)

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 15th August 2011 at 01:28.
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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Like these discussions!

    More MP are bad? Don't think so!

    There is a limit in MP? We are far away from this with today's pixel sizes.

    Lenses have their diffraction limit? Hmm - sure, but it is not all just black and white, there is a certain range which is still perfectly useable.

    I am sure that the next generation of FF DSLRs will get in the 30-40MP range! Could anyone imagine that 2 years ago?

    There will be more digital sensor concepts without AA filter. What is the the quality difference to today's MFDBs - it melts away!

    I think we should be pretty open to technical changes and breakthroughs which will happen. Which only can be good for all of us, as better quality equipment will become much cheaper for all of us!

    Exciting times ....
    Peter and Stephan

    I do like these discussions and "future ideas" and follow this thread very careful .
    But again , I come to a point , where I ask myself and you , do we need techiques which produce images with such a precision but we can not print them and then , the human eye can not even see the precision and details ?
    Would the realisation of all these ideas not be far beyond what we are willing to pay for and what we need ?
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Jürgen

    you are right the precision and shere image size is not the primary focus for this !
    Instead all of these improvements will also (and mainly!) improve usability, speed and believe it or not - will bring the price of these systems DOWN !!!

    It is to be questioned if a classical 35mm can fullfill all needed Pro tasks - and I say NO.There needs to be some sort of highend modular system with adaptations for the various tasks. I just doubt it should have a shutter, a CCD and NON-retrofocus lenses.
    The actual peripherals are connected by cables - I also think this is outdated.
    The batteries need to be standardized, there needs to be a highspeed WLan implemented. then the storage (and the viewing part) does not need to be part of the camera body. Instead iPads or iPhone kind of devices with modular extensible software could be used.
    On choice the images could also go directly to your server or your local desktop machine - or in case of outhouse jobs directly to the cloud/customers server.

    This is all possible, the technology exists , it just needs to be implemented.

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
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  26. #76
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Peter and Stephan

    I do like these discussions and "future ideas" and follow this thread very careful .
    But again , I come to a point , where I ask myself and you , do we need techiques which produce images with such a precision but we can not print them and then , the human eye can not even see the precision and details ?
    Would the realisation of all these ideas not be far beyond what we are willing to pay for and what we need ?
    I agree to a certain extent, but I would argue we are not there yet. I would argue if FF DSLR can deliver high quality 40MP (around 40MP) then we are there. Most people do not need more than 12MP, some want 24-30MP, but actually if you get 40MP which are really useable, then at least I am there!

    So maybe with the next incarnation of FF DSLRs we have reached this point. Not sure if evolution will stop then, but at least I would then have what I am looking for. A FF DSLR with some selected lenses which can come up to the demands of the high resolution sensor. And ISO from 100 - 25400 or so. Would not need more!

    There will always be the argument for MFD and that you still can produce more resolution and higher quality, but for what price? High priced gear, much more weight and much more restrictions WRT lenses and accessories. Not where at least I want to be finally!

    And then the real hard core solution pairing the 80MP or 160MP backs with tech cameras. Hmm .... sure there are demands for this but what is the percentage even for high demanding pros or amateurs? Finally many of the tech camera users will again start stitching - so you can even do this with smaller sensor sizes, just need more stitches.

    Well I do know and am aware of all the arguments and facts why MF is superior and I also do think that MFD will never go away, but I guess the gap to high end DSLRs is going to shrink more and more. And then the final question to be answered individually is: "Do I need that slight advantage and will I pay tons of money for that?" I think the answer will more and more be:"NO".

    At least IMHO - please do not kill me

  27. #77
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Jürgen

    you are right the precision and shere image size is not the primary focus for this !
    Instead all of these improvements will also (and mainly!) improve usability, speed and believe it or not - will bring the price of these systems DOWN !!!

    It is to be questioned if a classical 35mm can fullfill all needed Pro tasks - and I say NO.There needs to be some sort of highend modular system with adaptations for the various tasks. I just doubt it should have a shutter, a CCD and NON-retrofocus lenses.
    The actual peripherals are connected by cables - I also think this is outdated.
    The batteries need to be standardized, there needs to be a highspeed WLan implemented. then the storage (and the viewing part) does not need to be part of the camera body. Instead iPads or iPhone kind of devices with modular extensible software could be used.
    On choice the images could also go directly to your server or your local desktop machine - or in case of outhouse jobs directly to the cloud/customers server.

    This is all possible, the technology exists , it just needs to be implemented.

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Stefan,

    while all these requirements are existing and are somehow already implemented and will become better implemented in the future ...... well ..... I must say that this is at least no longer why I would feel photography being any more fun! Maybe needed for pro's, but would argue then these are POOR PRO's, if they have to live with such an environment!

  28. #78
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Peter and Stephan

    I do like these discussions and "future ideas" and follow this thread very careful .
    But again , I come to a point , where I ask myself and you , do we need techiques which produce images with such a precision but we can not print them and then , the human eye can not even see the precision and details ?
    Would the realisation of all these ideas not be far beyond what we are willing to pay for and what we need ?
    No one seems to want to address this question Jurgen. Not unexpected as we live in a technocratic society with an insatiable appetite for new distractions whether actually useable or truly practical.

    Huge leaps forward in capture technology that can be applied in less and less instances. So specialized that they get used as an initial novelty and are forgotten by 99% of the users ... except when the Visa bill comes to pay for it. Tools for the few that the masses of serious enthusiasts feel compelled to also have, but can never fully realize because the features "exceed the need".

    Even mechanical/film technology had its flights of impractical fancy 50 years ago, which we never saw realized in practical photography ... military cameras/lenses/film so capable that images captured from 30,000 feet up could finely render small objects the eye could never see without a telescope or a microscope. So, imagine what is actually possible now.

    It may be that the "end of tolerances" has no end ... but the actual consumption of what is produced does. Until Leica, Schneider, Rodenstock start making "replacement eyes" for our heads, and whole new ways of processing, printing and/or viewing become ubiquitous, tolerances will be dictated by that link in the image chain.

    This thread is about innovation ... and IMO, more/better innovation belongs in the photographer's head, more than it does in his or her tools ... at least as the available tools now are ... which far outstrip the ability to use them ... or even pay for them ... by a vast majority of users.

    It seems to me that innovation today is now defined as being "more of the same" ... in both the end work and the tools. More meg. more ISO, more automation, etc..

    Perhaps the innovation we actually need has yet been even touched upon? Where are the replacements for inkjets? Where are new viewing technologies? While software innovation has been amazing ... it is a stepchild compared to what is pumped into capture technology ... and no matter the howls of protest from the C1 or LR faithful, most post programs are clunky and tiresome, eating up more time than any shooter spends actually shooting. Who here couldn't suggest massive innovations they'd like to see in the ability, interface and tools of final production? If I could build a hybrid of all the propritary post programs I've used, I take something from everyone of them and still want/need more and better.

    -Marc

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    this is a colani concept of the early 80' i think :-)

    Last edited by 6x7; 15th August 2011 at 12:09.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Honestly from a Pro view we are hitting a point of no return. Sure the innovation is nice and it does serve a purpose in our work but some of it already gets to hinder us and rely on the tech and not the brain or innovation from the photographer itself. Sometimes this stuff just gets in the way of work and also how many times can we keep pushing the envelope with the technology and actually get a return on our investment when the world of still photographer is changing. You can innovate all you want but I'm still suffering like many Pros from some bozo undercutting the market and clients are concerned only of price. None of this will get us better work per say. Frankly I am so done now with my IQ 160 I could care less what back is next. I hit the end of the line with this back, has all the technology I was looking for. Yes taken many tears of innovation to get here but at some point sorry gear heads but you have to say stop. I'm at the end here, sure new bodies and lenses will always be a benefit and we need the innovation don't get me wrong. But as a business person or even a hobbyist will always compromise on gear. That my friends will never end but you have to have a end of the line mentality too.

    So from my seat where do I stop where do I reinvest for my family and my retirement. We simply can't be buying new toys on a continually basis as history dicates with digital it is a slow process with very few major leaps in it. reinvesting 30 k every 2 years on upgrades is not making our retirement funds any better for the small increases in tech. The gaps have to stretch and the innovations have to be huge. Guess what OEM can't survive like that. They need to continual sell product and some will stretch that tech out over years to keep selling gear than giving us everything at once. For us we have to find our happy spot with the tech and work and shoot. I'm there with my back so in this case Phase is not getting another nickel out of me for a future back unless it would turn my world around. But a new body I'm all over it. But the point is here I stopped on the back . I'm done no more let's get Guy to upgrade again. I found my happy spot.
    So now what do they do, they have to spread out the line make improvements where there customers will actually spend money in other areas. So in effect this will take time throw us a couple bones along the way to help us spend but at some point us consumers have to say, thanks I'm fine.

    Innovation is awesome but worthless if no one is buying. With a down economy and our world changing as photographers there has to be a stop point for us as responsible buyers. The hobbyists truly rule the world here as Pros it is a shrinking market as we see more and more doors closing on the Pros. Sorry folks these are not fun times and we need to survive it and innovation alone with technology is only a very small part of it. Especially when clients will accept iPhone images.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    the problem as I see it is that development get distracted by the potential of digital, but not all of what digital can offer is really appropriate; priorities are skewed in favor of extreme digital ends, not necessarily photographic ends.

    for example, it took Phase (and anyone else) many years to come up with a decent viewing screen, even though users have been screaming about it from the beginning.
    The tech camera with movements, in the field, is limited due to the ability to view. Still can't come close to what you could do with 4x5 and gglass. Even tethered, you have to shoot and peep.
    Focus mask seems great for this, and this is the "innovation" we need.
    We still can't view on our I-pad, but that development has got to be easy, compared to making 80mpx
    we still have a way to go to exceed what the lenses will do; I don't see that as a meaningful limitation until the viewing issue is optimized

    If all we got was what first we had with 4x5, but just with a digital capture...

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I think many of the technological "advances" that have been delivered are more in the nature of "feature creep" than what photographers really want.

    From Wiki: The most common cause of feature creep is the desire to provide the consumer with a more useful or desirable product, in order to increase sales or distribution. However, once the product reaches the point at which it does everything that it is designed to do, the manufacturer is left with the choice of adding unneeded functions, sometimes at the cost of efficiency, or sticking with the old version, at the cost of a perceived lack of improvement."

    To some extend I don't really blame the manufacturers since the relatively small market for digital MF makes it tough to justify the R&D expense needed to develop what many of us are asking for. I can't imagine what it cost to develop the Hy6 and just look at how few units were actually purchased. And I forget the dollar amounts that were mentioned in connection with development of the Leica S2... but I do remember they were HUGE. Unfortunately, IMHO, we are moving in the direction where improvements will come about through software... not hardware. It's already begun.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    the problem as I see it is that development get distracted by the potential of digital, but not all of what digital can offer is really appropriate; priorities are skewed in favor of extreme digital ends, not necessarily photographic ends.
    The high-end of the market definitely purposefully emphasizes quality over ease-of-use. Most of our users appreciate that emphasis. It's the easiest way of describing the difference between the high-end and the middle-end (canon/nikon/sony etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    for example, it took Phase (and anyone else) many years to come up with a decent viewing screen, even though users have been screaming about it from the beginning.
    dSLRs come out every 2-3 years. New digital back platforms (not just a new model of the same platform) come out every 6-7 years. The P+ series from Phase had the same general quality LCD as a 1Ds III (though not nearly as good a zoom/navigation interface) which was shipping in volume in early 2008. That meant they were behind around 2-3 years when the IQ launched. It was a painful 2-3 years, but don't make it sound like they were a decade behind or something. Now they are ahead by 1-2 years with the IQ screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    The tech camera with movements, in the field, is limited due to the ability to view. Still can't come close to what you could do with 4x5 and gglass. Even tethered, you have to shoot and peep. Focus mask seems great for this, and this is the "innovation" we need.
    Focus mask for tilt/swing is a revolution in the speed/accuracy with which you can tilt/swing using Focus Mask. Once you've established your proper focus distance you can see the results of a tilt in near real time with MORE speed and similar accuracy a GG and a good loupe.

    Actually I think it could be fun to have a few races :-). You with a 4x5 and a loupe and me with an Arca and an IQ180 :-).

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    We still can't view on our I-pad, but that development has got to be easy, compared to making 80mpx. we still have a way to go to exceed what the lenses will do; I don't see that as a meaningful limitation until the viewing issue is optimized
    Here again the very long usable life of a digital back is a problem here. Anytime you rely on a 3rd party product (as Leaf did with the iPaq system on their Valeo series) you become outdated VERY quickly. The Phase One H25 and Valeo 22 (similar generationally) are still GREAT systems (within their areas of intended use) which are in relatively common use 8 years after they were introduced. They were released in 2003 which means they were being developed when OS9 was the only option on a Mac. Just imagine if a critical feature relied on using a Mac with OS9!

    Similarly I honestly expect that in 8 years an IQ180 will still be considered a GREAT camera system and by then we'll be on the equivalent of an iPad 10. If a critical feature relied on finding an iPad 1/2 it would significantly defeat the lifetime of usability of the IQ.

    Now clearly remote review on an iPad/iPhone/Android would be incredibly sexy and very very useful. You can see Phase One recognizing that with what I'd argue is by far the best iPad app for viewing/reviewing/evaluation of a shoot available from anyone - Capture Pilot. But the key is to make sure your technology depends more on you and less on a 3rd party by using open-source/standards and by controlling as much of the technology chain as you can without having to reinvent the wheel. So in order to have a wireless review system on an IQ (or successor) or Aptus-II (or successor) it would have to be clear it was a solution that could last many years into the future.

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  34. #84
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Unfortunately, IMHO, we are moving in the direction where improvements will come about through software... not hardware. It's already begun.
    I do not think this is true! Improvements will not only come through SW, it will be always a combination of HW and SW. Just think about computers, laptops, netbooks, iPad etc, they all improve through both HW and SW.

    Now do we always need this? For sure not, but it makes our lives easier, at least sometimes, or shall we say it makes our lives different? If what comes out is then better I would really argue!

    But WRT photographic tools there is no difference here. So we will always see new HW - be it sensors, processors, micro mechanics etc, which in most cases require faster processors and also new and faster SW. Camera manufacturers are far away from the ideal camera, just think about AF and AF speed, sensitivity and accuracy. The ideal AF would be one which covers at least an area as in the Nikon D3X (for a FF camera - larger for a MF camera) which offers TF as in the H4D and could be set back to the simplicity of the AF in a S2 - just as an example. But we are not there and what we see coming as the next great revolutions for AF is actually something which makes me cry

    I think that one has to set these limits for himself individually and then stick to this. Maybe the way of Leica with their S2 and M9 and according functionality is right for a big percentage of photographers, at least the ones who grew up with very basic but efficient features in cameras such as the good old R line from Leica. Do I need more? Probably not because more distracts me too much from my actual work.

    But in our digital world we will always have to live with a combination of improvements resulting from HW and SW!

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I agree with most Doug, but when I think back it would never come to my mind to say, that the P45+ / P65+ screen was anywhere near my 1DsMK3 screen. NEVER. The one was great to work with even though it wasn't a 5dmk2 screen. The other a disaster. This was by far the biggest disappointment on the P65.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    doug:
    all i would have to do is require tilt and swing, same shot, he, he. and if I was using a Sinar P, no contest, best system ever.




    i think there are now some standards for interfacing, data moving and storage, etc...I hope so, and that they will last for while.

    I doubt I can get anything to read an old 8" floppy disc; out of the 8-10 PC's in my shop, I think only one or two even have drives for 3-1/2" floppies and nothing can read a 5-1/4". USB on most everything, nothing still uses a parallel port though,

  37. #87
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    As if it were what I was thinking about - here a concept from designer Zeki Ozek which was finalist for the Red Dot Design Concept 2011 :

    http://rexplore.blogspot.com/2010/11...to-camera.html

    and here a Leica Concept:

    http://www.ubergizmo.com/2011/04/lei...oncept-camera/

    I think this is very sexy and .... using a separate device for the viewing would also help to solve the energy problem.

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Now as if Nick Devlin over at luminouslandscape had read this, maybe he has,maybe not, it does not matter I just say take a look and "AMEN" !

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/es...wont_get.shtml

    the discussion on the forum is lively and as well interesting:

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/fo...?topic=56999.0

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan

    PS.: And thanks to the admins here in this forum who have let me go all the way in this thread even if some were irritated, same happens in Lula Forum calling Nick a troll. It´s maybe because the ideas are so immanent to people working with this, you need to get this out of your soul !
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    BTW I also have some theory to share.
    There is the definiton of systemic noise. It says roughly that a compensation of a fault cannot be done with another faulty (imperfect) value. Instead it will add up and multiply the fault - thus systemic noise.
    Now trying to reach perfection on mechanical tolerances is impossible.
    The system is by itself faulty (see also Rogers article) so the idea of getting better and better tolerances to eliminate the variation is by itself contraproductive. Instead the best way to eliminate noise is to simplify the system and reduce available tolerance causing steps or complications.
    In case of the camera this means reduce it to the bare minimum and expect the outputof a focus calibration to be faulty anyway. But if you can directly control the fault (CMOS with electronic viewfinder and onchip autofocus and visual control) the flaws become meaningless.

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Hi Stefan - Thanks for posting about "systemic noise" because now I can better understand what is meant by the "the end of tolerances reached." The thread title appears to be an aphorism referring to what is known in some media theory as a break boundary.

    My understanding is that the types of methods deployed against systemic noise are dependent upon the nature of the mediums involved. Mechanical and digital (electrical) mediums require two distinctly different approaches. Hybrid mediums need a combination of both and the tension created by the mixture leads to transformations and reversals of form. The moment that a medium hits a point where it can only evolve into a new form or revert back to a previous state is a break boundary.

    The best way to eliminate noise in a mechanical medium is to simplify and this is what photographers refer to as the purist approach. Mechanization is a linear process with a clear beginning and end. Purists eliminate steps within the sequence that are not necessary for achieving the final desired photographic outcome. They carefully make certain that every component has a clearly defined role and then tighten the tolerances as much as possible. It's important to remember that the purist approach in photography always begins with the user and ends with a still photograph. The photographer is never divorced from the process and each step of the sequence is completely derived from the applied technique of the user.

    Digital mediums also eliminate noise by simplification, but they do it by converging steps in the sequence as opposed to removing them. The method of convergence is known to photographers as integration and it differs from mechanical purism by the fact that the entire imaging process works towards becoming simultaneous rather than linear. This means that the user is no longer the starting point and a still photograph is not the end. In fact, the photographer is just another tolerance to reduce and the applied technique of the user turns into a variable to overcome. It's important to understand that digital's nature is to merge all digital mediums together into a single de-centralized and non-specialized form. Integration does not stop at the boundaries of the traditional still photographic medium and can continue undeterred until it combines with all other digital mediums (cellular phones, personal computers, internet browsers, email, video, GPS, digital audio etc.)

    At the time of introduction, new mediums occupy roles that were originally filled by previously existing mediums and this arrangement can fool some into thinking that a progression is taking place. In photography, sensors replaced film to create a hybrid between mechanical and digital mediums. Many purists believed that the sensor was simply performing the task of a capture device and this led them to percieve each advance in megapixel resolution as a development similar to an increase in film format size. They took for granted that digital would limit itself to the traditional role of film and might be satisfied to remain a single specialized step in an already established process.

    Digital's nature is not to assume roles and follow sequences. On the contrary, it's nature is to demolish roles and destroy sequences. The moment that sensors replaced film was also the instant that post-processing supplanted the user from the starting point of the photographic process. It also paved the way for the future addition of live view & video that are now displacing the still photograph from the end point of the process. Post-processing itself could eventually be reduced to just "processing" since there can be no "post" or "pre" once true simultaneity is achieved.

    Many hybrid mediums can only exist in a perpetual state of civil war. The good news is that conflict provides an opportunity to better understand their true nature and use knowledge of causes to make more informed decisions. I think that your (Stefan) original premise is correct and that we are now entering a period in time where the differences between mechanical purism and digital integration are so apparent that they're impossible to ignore. Transformations and reversals of form are inevitable to occur. Digital photography could split into an entirely separate medium from traditional still photography and evolve into digital imaging. There is already precedent for a change like that take place because something similar happened over a century ago when the motion picture medium (cinema) separated from still photography. It's also possible that an extreme reversal of form could transpire that would lead many photographers to quit digital altogether and return to film.

    I think that most people are already intuitively aware of the differences between mechanical purism and digital integration so none of what was just posted should be new information. But the past decade has presented so many seemingly rapid changes that most of us can't help but to feel a bit disoriented. Now might be a good time to reflect on recent experience and use it to clearly identify the unique qualities of mediums in order to fully grasp the root causes of current and potential future conflicts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Mike - Thanks for that last one

    >>>The photographer turned content producer actually becomes his own client and takes the final step towards total convergence between production and consumption.>>>

    This is exactly what I´m doing now. And actually if you ask me when did I feel better than today- I´d say never before! I control the content that I want to photograph. I design my own website, I do my own flyers and CI.I had learned this for customers and now it falls into place for what I do for myself and our company now.
    My main tool is the internet, I work internationally, my clients come from all over the planet. This is definitely a complete change of what I did before as a Studio Photographer working for large corporate customers and Advertising agencies.
    That's a great example of what I meant by living a life of "realized art".... I hope that things continue to go well

    "Where the whole man is involved there is no work. Work begins with the division of labor."

  40. #90
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Personally, I like DB's in the 30-40 megapixel range. It's just the right amount of resolution and file size for the current lenses I own
    actually you can't get any FF MF camera with 30 or 40 MP because of that pixel race

    80 MP is good for some but a nonsense for many MP users

  41. #91
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Mike

    I think the process of digitalisation also shifts the target markets. Whereas in days of horsecarriages there was a whole infrastructure for horses who were essential for the transport system - the infrastructure has disappeared or shrunk to hobbyists use, we now get to a point where companies like Koday slowly dissolve , disappear (Agfa) or shift their focus (Fuji).
    The classic Photoindustry may also be close to a paradigm change as mobile smartphones with 10 Mpix or more will take over the classic role of 70-80 % of volume photography. The viewing medium "print" is also on the merge to disappear or shrink to a shadow of what it was in the 80´s and 90´s as the mobile tablet and Smartphone viewing devices do not need these high resolutions, classic computers may also be integrated into our TV sets, as soon as there are 500 $ 30"+ Full HD screens with integrated Webbrowsers and Highspeed internet access and graphic cards you can as well run all your Apps from the cloud.

    There will be some applications where the large resolutions will stay valid, but for the consumer this will have no influence (it even does not as of today).

    The interesting question to be answered is: does the system of creating local highresolution data have future - or wouldn´t it have been more helpful to have an LTE communication module inside of a back instead of a USB3 cable connection ? And for local usage why not use 802.11n or even switch to 1 Gigabit Wlan (first drafts IEEE 802.11ad already out). For shutter: why not use NO Shutter - CMos with Lifeview - even with less resolution - a large pixelpitch with 7-8 Micron with 40-60 Mpix max but better dynamic range would certainly be ok and delivering data within the Nyquist resolution of most lenses. And finally: would multishot for significantly higher resolutions be the better concept ? (I´d say 4 shot - more than this wil probably run into the same optical problems as single shot systems over 100 MPix)
    Electronic Finders could be separated from the device, be remote, modular and upgradeable.
    Nearly all of this is now happening in the Pro Video industry - I can only repeat, this is where the competition for Phase and Hasselblad will come from - Red has already offered such a concept, Arri may come next, the japanese Pro Makers are also capable to cannibalize their pure Photo departments. If the 5D MK2 had such an Impact on the Video market, what do you think will happen if an Arri Alexa quality device would reach 4K plus resolutions(with 100 images a second !) with an IQ180 comparable price ?

    I think this optical and mechanical discussion is only a starting point to a concept change. If this will not happen, the reality will take it´s own pace and level the market.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Thank you Stefan and Mike M for a very interesting thread.

  43. #93
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    As an impression as of how I see a workflow also for photography - take a look here:

    http://vimeo.com/27818488

    then something not so totally serious:

    http://vimeo.com/20040143

    and then the wet dream - the Alexa made in Munich by Arri:

    http://vimeo.com/26629283

    and this is the info source -14 steps DR , no shutter, modular, electronic viewfinder with all the film gimmicks you can imagine- and plenty of usage footage:

    http://vimeo.com/10819793

    and the film they made

    http://vimeo.com/10831418

    and now the Alexa is 50000 € sure you need plenty of peripherals, sure this is a film camera, but think what could be with a smaller body, a larger chip and all these input output interfaces, large monitor/viewfinder - yummy !!!

    Regards
    Stefan

    could not resist to put up 2 more links:
    http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-came...11/episode-one
    http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-came...11/episode-two
    very cool - very interesting.
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 22nd August 2011 at 10:03.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    @Stefan, your last two posts definitely have a lot of great observations and questions. I checked all of the links ...but didn't have enough time to watch all of the last two.

    I've come to the conclusion that the best way to sort through an information overload is to identify patterns which is similar to how search engines (like Google) operate. Knowledge of differences between mechanical and digital (electrical) processes is how I try to identify their patterns in order to make sense of the changes that are taking place or will take place in photography.

    It's also better to use patterns to predict trends rather than events. For example, if we know that digital is to work towards integration then this allows us to predict that the current steps of saving a file to a memory card, transferring it to a hardrive, and uploading it to the internet will converge. The trend is toward simultaneity, but we can't necessarily predict the specific events or exact means that will lead to the final outcome.

    I also think that the consumer is a major factor to consider and is where culture really enters into the equation. Digital is de-centralizing and democatizing which is a nice way of saying that the mob is in command. In other words, digital's mission is to include the common person and NOT the expert. Master craftsman simply cannot exist in an environment where all opinion is equally valid and barriers to entry are broken down. I can't stress just how important the cultural factor is going to be when it comes to future developments involving digital photographic gear. The man-on-the-street/Joe-six-pack is ultimately going to determine what constitutes "image quality." Professional photographers will increasingly discover that their small voices are easily shouted down by the roar of the crowd. Eventually, I think that most people working in digital will be forced to accept whatever watered-down standards are adopted by the mainstream public.
    Last edited by Mike M; 23rd August 2011 at 11:17.

  45. #95
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Mike I see the pattern- but I refuse to give in.
    And I disagree about the importance of outstanding craftsmanship.
    I know that the classic photographer- the one who runs through apprenticeship, a several year experience build up and then getting a masters degree is in a difficult situation now. But I have recently been guest at the Gutenberg school in Stuttgart where plenty of young and well educated future photographers were listening to my HCam-Workshop we held there. During the workshop I had a chance to listen to the questions of these young people and I can tell you - the future is here, these young guys/girls will do it right and we should not think that if us old silverhalogenid polluted photodinosaurs have doubts about the future of valid and valuable photography, these young people do even care. They have their own ideas and plenty of idealism, this is so refreshing, like a timemachine which makes me listen to myself 35 years ago.....;-)

    and - I see the professionalism I grew up with now in the film production teams and the CGI guys, I wish I´d be 30 years younger I´d be wrenching my workstation(s) and render my own worlds, I think CGI is absolutely fascinating. This is also why I think that photography should take a deep look into this bordershift of Devices drifting between Photo and Video.
    It´s a great chance, those who will understand will make the transition.
    This world needs good content, who says that a photo may not be a film and a film not be a photo if needed.

    I am very optimistic, art will have it´s place, if shere consumption will have been long gone a value and an idea can last forever.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  46. #96
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Stefan

    Your visions and knowledge about the photographic future are very interesting and yes , we will not stop the progress as changes in technique and workflow will come , if we want it or not . It has always been like that .
    Without progress , we would not have an IQ180 back today , just as an example . We should not forget that .

    I have put a package of 120 rollfilm in my deep freezer some years ago , to be able to show the grandchildren a film , if they should ask me , what is a film ?
    Perhaps we should put an IQ180 into the deep freeze by tomorrow , to show the next generations grandchildren what a MFDB is (should we better say , was ? ) .

    Future techniques and workflows might reveal , that our todays way to capture an image is somewhat very complicated and old fashioned .

    But we have no other chance , we can only use the tools we have available today .
    BTW , I recently shot a roll of film with a beautiful 60 year old HASSELBLAD . Great results .

    I do not hate the progress nor am I afraid of new things and new things I will have to learn . But the speed of the progress has become so fast , that when you finally hold your desired new gear in your hands , it turns out to be "old" .

    That happened to me in some way , that I "missed" the change from film to digital .
    The amount of money I lost in the past ten years with electronic gear , computer , cameras , cell phones etc . is extremely big and I refuse to proceed like that . I refuse to get manipulated by the industry to always have the newest gear to be "in" .

    Today , my gear is up to date , it might be old technique by tomorrow .
    But I will then carry on shooting with that "old stuff" .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  47. #97
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    And while we discuss the future of possible camera concepts Sony has built it - Nex 7 for 1199 $:

    http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/s...er-1199-price/

    Looks like a small version of our HCam.(or does our HCam look like a large version of a nex ?).

    much more technical data you´ll find here:

    http://www.systemkamera-forum.de/blo...08/sony-nex-7/ or use the google translate version
    http://translate.google.de/translate...x-7%2F&act=url

    Thanks Sony for proof of concept - the future is here (december 2011).

    And I cannot resist adding this: The history of sony comes from a background of consumer orientation for innovative electronics.

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  48. #98
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    And while we discuss the future of possible camera concepts Sony has built it - Nex 7 for 1199 $:

    http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/s...er-1199-price/

    Looks like a small version of our HCam.(or does our HCam look like a large version of a nex ?).

    much more technical data you´ll find here:

    http://www.systemkamera-forum.de/blo...08/sony-nex-7/ or use the google translate version
    http://translate.google.de/translate...x-7%2F&act=url

    Thanks Sony for proof of concept - the future is here (december 2011).

    And I cannot resist adding this: The history of sony comes from a background of consumer orientation for innovative electronics.

    regards
    Stefan
    OK,
    now you really have me unsure about what you mean.
    It is just another evolutionary Sony.
    and BTW way off topic on this thread


    -bob

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I think there is a difference between 'gadgets' and improved 'gadgets' - which I consider this camera you show above as an example of - and 'quality'. It is much much harder to improve on 'quality' than 'gadgets'.

    I think that displaying photographs on the net -is a very different thing to displaying printed photographs. If photography = displaying images on the net - then I can assure you I would have NO interest in photography ( as an example)

    I use a 65 inch flat screen monitor to display a continuous slideshow of images I have made at home - this is of interest to friends who visit- but what really gets their attention is the framed printed image(s) hanging on walls - print versus digital display? - there is NO comparison.

    The digital world has allowed for what I call quality decline 'creepage' infecting pretty much every aspect of life commercial and private - and I think that there is a growing subculture of REJECTION going on.

    My next motorbike will be either a Harley or a Victory - both based on engine designs which I can look after myself - my Ducati days are over.

    Levi 501's have never been improved

    Ray Bans have never been improved

    Rolex Submariners are still the best watch a man can buy and wear.

    The Mont Blanc giant has never been improved.

    The Leica M camera has never been improved

    The Hasselblad 500 series will never be replaced by a better design

    The Alpa 12W will never be beaten as a pure design

    digital evolution is one thing - quality is another....

    ( just for debate)

    * PS Bob I missed your post *** I was typing.

  50. #100
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Peter

    for the sony I have opened a new thread on the sony forum here on GetDPI

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29629

    more explanations about it there.

    On the theme of this thread : It´s good that you are throwing in the aspect of perfect design and classic into the discussion.


    From the point of view of someone that was happy at the time when these came out, implementing that your judgement parameters are valid for everyone you are right. The problem is Younger people or people with a different background maybe in Computers, internet, gaming or electronics may just be bored by your selection and enthusiasm for these items.

    I also have a BMW Boxer 1989 built and classic retro fit look with 1040 cubic ccm, I also (sometimes) wear mechanical chronos (I collect a bit, my favourite is a 1972 Heuer Autavia Diver) and your list to me is understandable and valid.

    But Peter - I am 54 years old and already an old fart (listening to 20 year olds ) - they do not even know the names of the brands that you mention here. As about 60-70 %(maybe more) of humans on this planet are under 30 I guess this makes your choice a pretty personal and elite one, whereas other elites (mentioned before) will be the Apple geeks (I also have some of this ) or the hiphop generation (already over 25 now!) or the realist party infotainment generation (the actual young 15-25 ones)may have total differing interests and choices.

    I love my Suunto Core as much as my Heuer and I change them like other people change ties for the office.

    Just to remember we are a pretty small group of people here in this special world of highend photography

    greetings from Munich

    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 25th August 2011 at 00:14. Reason: Grammar
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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