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Thread: The end of tolerances reached ?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    The end of tolerances reached ?

    http://www.canonrumors.com/tech-arti...d-other-myths/

    I found this very interesting article, written by Roger Cicala from lensrentals.com- itīs not new, maybe some of you know this already. I think for the others itīs worth reading as itīs contents exactly been discussed here with the 80 Mpix backs and the results.
    I second everything he says in there for 100 %, he also states the findings of LLoyd Chambers from Diglloyd.com. I say: There is even more about ISO variations of focal lenghts (+/-10% allowed!!!), focus shifts for stepping down etc.pp. many of these hindrances to be found on LLoyds pages at DAP.

    I think all working Proīs need to understand that we are reaching a limit here and Thesis: if it is not a better approach to improve workflow and handling of cameras instead of megapixels.

    BTW: a bad and boring picture will stay a bad and boring picture no matter how many megapixel you throw at the viewer to improve the impression.

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib hcam.de
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    ... I think all working Proīs need to understand that we are reaching a limit here and Thesis: if it is not a better approach to improve workflow and handling of cameras instead of megapixels.

    BTW: a bad and boring picture will stay a bad and boring picture no matter how many megapixel you throw at the viewer to improve the impression.
    I've subscribed to this point of view for some time. I find that unless I am intent on making truly enormous prints ... which means for me prints larger than say 17x22 inch printed area ... I really don't need more than the current 10-12 Mpixels easily available with many cameras and can often be quite satisfied with even 5-6 Mpixels. Handling, workflow, and skill in making the exposure, focusing the lens, and then rendering the output properly account for a lot more quality than spending megabux to buy the latest 16, 20, 24, 40 or 80 Mpixel wonder.

    For those who's work and craft demand these huge pixel resolution cameras, more power to you! But my work only very rarely indeed goes to such sizings or demands such high-end pixel resolution. I'd love to see much more work go into camera responsiveness, usability, and dynamic range than this constant expansion of pixel resolution.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Roger's article should be compulsory reading for all. This is not rocketscience but Roger does explain it particularly eloquently.
    It is for precisely this reason that manufacturers such as Alpa, whose entire ethos centres around the highest achievable quality, insist on such seemingly pedantic practices such as shimming of mounts. It is simply impossible to control all the variables in a photographic system (back, body, lens etc), so it is essential to have some point at which adjustment is possible. It is also one of the main reasons why Alpas, Leicas etc are so expensive - these manufacturers go to extreme lengths to keep tolerances very tight. Keep in mind also that the number of units sold is tiny when compared to Canikon etc. To those who constantly complain about high costs of this level of gear, I'm sorry that you can't afford it, but this level of quality costs dearly and the manufacturers are businesses, not charities. Photographers who demand this level of quality always have and always will stump up the cash, or learn to do without. Having spent nearly a million dollars on gear over the course of my career, I can assure you it is tough. It's one of the reasons I don't drive a flashy car. Yet, I am grateful that there are manufacturers producing 80Mp backs, ultra resolution lenses and cameras with awesome tolerances etc. May they stay profitable and keep innovating.
    As to the question of how many MP is enough, I think every shooter has to make the decision as to how much is enough for themselves. There is no universal truth here. Hunting elephants with a .22 Rimfire is as silly as hunting squirrels with an elephant gun. However, whatever back you use, you cannot go wrong by insisting that it hangs off a camera built to the tightest possible tolerances.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Thank heavens someone said this:

    And stop looking at 100% images on your monitor: not only will it make you go blind, 50% screen resolution is more resolution than your printer can reproduce anyway.
    And they understand the significance of viewing distance.

    If my images stink, it won't be because I can notice the effects of diffraction or lens softness at 100%.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    ... To those who constantly complain about high costs of this level of gear, I'm sorry that you can't afford it, but this level of quality costs dearly and the manufacturers are businesses, not charities. Photographers who demand this level of quality always have and always will stump up the cash, or learn to do without. Having spent nearly a million dollars on gear over the course of my career, I can assure you it is tough. ...
    If you're construing my light reference to how much this gear costs as some kind of stupid whine that I can't afford it ... I've owned and used top of the line equipment for many many years. Linhof, Rolleiflex, Hasselblad, Sinar, various others when I did work that required such equipment.

    Bravo for you that you feel you can afford a million dollars worth of equipment. I don't know what your photographic endeavors are comprised of, but if you're spending that much money as part of a photographic business, I hope you've made 10-20 times the value back in your sales. Otherwise, it's a waste of money IMO ... business is after all business, profit is the name of the game. If you're a wealthy or dedicated hobbyist for whom putting this amount of money and energy into your work is your life's mission, to supersede other desires and wants, more power to you. I've been there too.

    My comment was directed at the spirit of the article, which is that too many photographers are hooked on fancy equipment and there are limits to what equipment can do to better your work, there are limits to how good equipment can get. Once past a certain point, the equipment is one of the least important parts of producing compelling photographs. Most photographers are well to learn their craft better rather than spend a million dollars on fancy ne-plus-ultra equipment. The few for whom such expenditures are essential are indeed the few.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    http://www.canonrumors.com/tech-arti...d-other-myths/

    I found this very interesting article, written by Roger Cicala from lensrentals.com- itīs not new, maybe some of you know this already. I think for the others itīs worth reading as itīs contents exactly been discussed here with the 80 Mpix backs and the results.
    I second everything he says in there for 100 %, he also states the findings of LLoyd Chambers from Diglloyd.com. I say: There is even more about ISO variations of focal lenghts (+/-10% allowed!!!), focus shifts for stepping down etc.pp. many of these hindrances to be found on LLoyds pages at DAP.

    I think all working Proīs need to understand that we are reaching a limit here and Thesis: if it is not a better approach to improve workflow and handling of cameras instead of megapixels.

    BTW: a bad and boring picture will stay a bad and boring picture no matter how many megapixel you throw at the viewer to improve the impression.

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib hcam.de
    Thanks for this Stefan.

    I can use this link to support my POV in other discussions regarding the impending leap in meg count for some of the popular 35mm DSLRs ... specifically people who are waiting for the Sony meg leap expected soon in lieu of getting a MFD ... and those wishing for a huge leap in meg count in the next Leica M camera.

    I've long been stumping for other improvements that add versatility and practical use to my tools ... which vary depending on which camera it is, since all of them need improvements in one way or another.

    Unless there is other technology involved that we don't know about yet, I will remain skeptical about the true improvements that can be realized from ever increasing the meg count ... other than the ability to market more gear to unsuspecting buyers.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    donīt get me wrong, I think the 80Mpix back DO make sense, but to be handled with care and with the knowledge about the reasons of the sideefects that occur.
    HCam does make large efforts to help making photography with these extremes possible, yes I think we even shifted the limits of what what was possible with wideangles to over 135 degrees rectilinear and now with the new Canon 8-15mm Fisheye Zoom to 180 Degrees (at 15mm a full circle on 80 Mpix).

    But I see our HCam as a tool that is used to make pictures, it is only a helping sideeffect for a creative Pro to get there, we are the typewriter that nobody should think of as he reads a book (Hemmingway). The image needs to be done in your brain, no camera will ever change this. We can just support and give more degrees of freedom in usage.

    The classic makers are somehow not yet clear in their statements, although they know they have to do something. Schneider Kreuznach has copied our TS lensconcept (with our help - but without paying for it....).
    Rodenstock has silently switched to Retrofocus without speaking openly about it (which would really help!). The classic gear makers in the Viewcamera market still seem to hope this will somehow go away or be solved by a miracle.
    And as much as I adore Alpa stuff for their precision, the engineering philosophy to do it more and more precise will finally fail at 100 or 120 Mpix latest, when the tolerances will need to be 1 Micron or less which is simply not to be handled anymore.

    Canon seems to be on the right path, the Japanese are very clever people, finding a mixture of usability, keizen, mass market and "good enough quality" for 90 % of all Pros to be able to achieve about anything you need to sell such a picture. Their lenses become better and better, they use Retrofocus and computerized designs which do miracles on optics (17mm+24mm TSE and 8-15mm Fisheye zoom), they have the money for new developments and the long term plan to take over the pro market in all aspects sooner or later (with the exception of those parts that do not give enough profit fitting their business model). Iīm not quite sure where Nikon or Sony do stand in this scenario, I think they are not that dedicated and centered, they are more watching and reacting.

    If anybody wants to see what Canon is after go to Google and type in Canon World Expo 2010 Paris or Shanghai and you will find plenty of videos including the wonder camera, usabilty concepts and more.

    Pretty good and the only ones I see who are targeting the before mentioned points with a clear vision.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan Steib - HCam.de
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 10th August 2011 at 02:07.
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    If you're construing my light reference to how much this gear costs as some kind of stupid whine that I can't afford it ... I've owned and used top of the line equipment for many many years. Linhof, Rolleiflex, Hasselblad, Sinar, various others when I did work that required such equipment.

    Bravo for you that you feel you can afford a million dollars worth of equipment. I don't know what your photographic endeavors are comprised of, but if you're spending that much money as part of a photographic business, I hope you've made 10-20 times the value back in your sales. Otherwise, it's a waste of money IMO ... business is after all business, profit is the name of the game. If you're a wealthy or dedicated hobbyist for whom putting this amount of money and energy into your work is your life's mission, to supersede other desires and wants, more power to you. I've been there too.

    My comment was directed at the spirit of the article, which is that too many photographers are hooked on fancy equipment and there are limits to what equipment can do to better your work, there are limits to how good equipment can get. Once past a certain point, the equipment is one of the least important parts of producing compelling photographs. Most photographers are well to learn their craft better rather than spend a million dollars on fancy ne-plus-ultra equipment. The few for whom such expenditures are essential are indeed the few.
    In the spirit of friendly and diplomatic discussion, I'd have to somewhat disagree with the above.

    Depending on what photographic business you are in, and for how long, it is conceivable to spend copious amounts of money on gear ... given the price of pro gear, including lighting and all ancillary stuff involved with professional digital capture. Plus, the "business" of photography is often infected with personal desires that are not exactly conducive to a pure profit motivation ... Guy being the poster child for this concept (and to be fair, I admit to it myself, since I don't need a lot of this stuff to do what I do, but I want it). So, it most certainly is not a waste of money if you enjoy it and it brings some personal pleasure while making a living. For example, I chose to get a Leica S2 kit in lieu of a new fancy car, and instead just put new brakes on my almost 7 year old Volvo SUV. It's just personal, not business

    In addition, well run photographic businesses factor in the cost. For all my "growth years" in MFD, I charged a digital capture fee for each job (as did all the photographers I hired when working as an Art Director). Factored in over a two year cycle, and including the tax write offs, in effect, I never personally paid for any of my professional equipment ... the clients did. Now that I am semi-retired, it is a different story and I am more aware of the cost to me personally, which hasn't made me a lot more prudent, just a lot more aware

    I'd also offer a counter point to the notion that "... after a certain point the equipment is one of the least important parts of producing compelling photographs." This is a variation on the well worn chestnut that "it is the person behind the camera, not the camera." ... which no one in their right mind would disagree with. However, if you look at it from the perspective of someone who has mastered their craft and is branching out into new areas or different applications of their talents ... sometimes better gear can make a difference and can be conducive to growth, if for no other reason than it's exciting to master a new piece of more demanding gear, and make it do what you creatively envision.

    Will it improve the end product? Again, that depends on the creative intent and skill of the user. There are more aspects to larger capture like 40, 60 or 80 meg MFD than just for large prints. I personally see a difference even with prints up to 17" X 22" ... if others do not, that is not my concern ... my only concern is what I see since it is my work, not theirs.

    BTW, I disagree with the article regarding prints no matter how well it can be documented logically or mathematically. In most every case, prints look better than their screen version ... and prints from my larger format cameras look better than those from the smaller format cameras ... speaking strictly about the aesthetics of the print itself, not the content, which is the part that the person behind the camera is solely in charge of contributing.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    As for some samples what I mean about future concepts here some links:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq8eD...eature=related

    now the next is actually a mockup- but wouldnīt we all want this ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn6iO...eature=related

    now see this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYgZa...eature=related

    or this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB4VU...eature=related

    Thereīs a lot more- anybody can find this now - AT THE VIDEO PEOPLE !
    I think this shows the idea and the direction - and in my opinion sooner or later the Photo Proīs will understand that this will also help them.
    But then what to do with a mechanical camera ?

    And then here - not science ficition- itīs here as a prototype:
    http://oh-so-coco.tumblr.com/tagged/Lytro

    There is also superresolution - I think this is the next big thing:
    try their demo www.photoacute.com

    or see some samples here:
    http://www.soundsthemovie.com/srtflash/SRT%20Demo.html

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan Steib - HCam.de
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 10th August 2011 at 04:51.
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    perhaps we can take hope in the release (finally) by Phase of the IQ screen and interface. The hugely positive response to that feature set alone, larger mpx notwithstanding, may signal a better perception of customer need by the developers

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    If you want to muck around with good stuff it usually costs- but the best camera always has a beautiful woman in the viewfinder...

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    And as much as I adore Alpa stuff for their precision, the engineering philosophy to do it more and more precise will finally fail at 100 or 120 Mpix latest, when the tolerances will need to be 1 Micron or less which is simply not to be handled anymore.
    Why do you think pixels pitches will reach sub-micron sizes? Tolerances are a factor of depth of focus. Photography is light dependent and a 1/10th of a micron pixel, which is about the upper limit for a 1 micron depth of focus at f/5.6 if you make the CoC equal to the pixel pitch, is not going to collect much light.

    Actually, I am not very impresses with a company that makes their cameras too short--you always shim away from the lens plane with an Alpa. Besides, an Alpa camera is just a spacer and helicoid--they don't make the optics and they don't make the back. (and where does the assumption that it is the back that is out of tolerance rather than the lens assembly?) And the tolerances don"t have to be that great for a camera using guestimation focus at mostly f/11.

    Don't get me wrong, it is a fine camera. I simply doubt the precision of the camera (in relation to others cameras) and the company's over emphasis of that precision.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Shashin
    agreed- this is only one part in the chain, as I mean - you can break a chain by breaking one part, but actually you canīt fix a broken chain with one part if several segments have flaws. The main problem is that there is not a single maker who is doing a complete lens/camera/back/software chain with this technology anymore. There used to be Sinar which was close (but also not making lenses), but I guess this party is over. Hasselblad is going into the closed MF-Body Philosophy, but as soon as you need to use the their backs on Viewcameras you run into the same problems.
    Phase One/leaf is doing a pretty good job in documentation and opening the system to 3rd party makers like us, but as can be seen even the small changed holes for the fixation hooks on the IQ180 backs (making these feel loose) have caused some trouble, the communication becomes a permanent control neccessity, there are plenty of complications which stem from a lack of it.
    The need for pretesting is growing permanently, adding additional costs to the systems as there are nearly unlimited combinations possible.
    I would say if the industry wants to survive there need to be normed interfaces, something like a T2 for Pro lenses and Backs.
    These specs need to be defined by a consortium of all makers and shall hold up at least for the next 10 years with forthcoming higher resolutions.
    the "old" 4x5" plates and MF mounts for Film cassettes are simply not up to these demands. the lenses need to be locked into a standard interface, thatīs something for Schneider and Rodenstock they need to work together if they want to survive- but I think before these 2 will cooperate hell will freeze more likely.

    Well..... nobody can say it was not to be seen nor told.

    Greetings from Munich
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Why do you think pixels pitches will reach sub-micron sizes? Tolerances are a factor of depth of focus. Photography is light dependent and a 1/10th of a micron pixel, which is about the upper limit for a 1 micron depth of focus at f/5.6 if you make the CoC equal to the pixel pitch, is not going to collect much light.

    Actually, I am not very impresses with a company that makes their cameras too short--you always shim away from the lens plane with an Alpa. Besides, an Alpa camera is just a spacer and helicoid--they don't make the optics and they don't make the back. (and where does the assumption that it is the back that is out of tolerance rather than the lens assembly?) And the tolerances don"t have to be that great for a camera using guestimation focus at mostly f/11.

    Don't get me wrong, it is a fine camera. I simply doubt the precision of the camera (in relation to others cameras) and the company's over emphasis of that precision.
    It's not just the DOF that's important, nodal points are greatly influenced by tolerances. Lack of a mirror box puts the lens very close to the image plane and therefore tolerances must be a known variable. Alpa brand lenses are mounted in a precision machined framed that take these variables into account...it's not just hype. This is a finely crafted tool and it's this precision that allow 3rd party backs and lenses to exploit every bit of resolution.

    Personally, I like DB's in the 30-40 megapixel range. It's just the right amount of resolution and file size for the current lenses I own. After all, it really comes down to the lens to resolve these high megapixel DB's anyway.

    Godfrey,

    I don't think Siebel's comment was directed at you in any way. If you've seen his photography it reflects a need for "ultimate images" that can go big, with tremendous detail. With today's planned obsolescence, dollar amounts can add up rather quickly. Certain markets drive what gear we use obviously, so as the saying goes..."you get what you pay for", is very accurate.

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    It's so much not about Mpix or sharp when I shoot

    The way I shoot, and what I shoot is all about light, shadows and holding dynamic range, the Mpix are incidental. That said, I still need a MFDB.



    My lenses are a bunch of old Mamiya ones that are close enough for me ......

    I can see a huge diffidence in post processing a P30+ image and a D300 one. I have touched a few D3X raw files, and MFDB is still better for what I do.

    This is clear in an 800 pixel web image.

    So all this whoha about ultimate sharpness is a bit of a non issue for me.

    In my other shooting work, F8 and be there is just fine!


    Dave

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Stefan, thanks very much for the links in #9

    There's an old saying that "you can never be too rich or too skinny".... and I think that the photography version of that might "you can never have enough speed or megapixels."

    I'm not sure if this is the right thread to bring this up or not but here goes... Too many of us are caught up in the Moore's Law mentality and it's making us all slaves to product cycles. We've all been there and I was a slave to technology just like everybody else. But I've found that the best way to understand what is going on in digital might be to apply some McLuhanisms.

    Photography started out as a mechanical process and well all know about the film days with lenses, shutters, apertures, film-loading, chemical development, printing etc. The main point to remember is that mechanical processes are linear and sequential. Each step is part of a specialized sequence and there is a clear beginning and end to the process.

    But digital imaging is different from mechanical photography in the sense that it is electrical. Electrical processes ultimately become non-linear and non-sequential. For this reason, digital imaging technology is methodically working itself to the point where the entire process of picture taking will be non-linear and non-sequential. Exposure, focus, resolution, framing, lighting etc will eventually be liberated from mechanical processes and handled simultaneously and/or outside of a sequence. We can already see how this has happened in the last decade as the emphasis on picture taking has shifted from capture to post-processing. Many of the processes that previously were done before capture in the mechanical era can now be done after capture in the digital era.

    How is this all gonna happen? Nobody knows all the answers yet but we can use our imaginations. The Lytro camera already focuses after capture. How much longer until the equivalent of in-camera-HDR comes along for extended dynamic range that captures detail in ALL possible lighting conditions? What about super-mega-fast ISOs?What about choosing framing and focal length equivalents after capture? What about choosing resolution after capture?

    Anyhow, (to get back to the OP's main post) the main reason that lenses have become such a source of frustration in relation to the quick advancements occurring in electric/digital imaging is because optics are currently still a necessary leftover from the mechanical/film photography era. Digital just hasn't liberated itself from that part of the sequence yet...

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Been Following this thread with avid interest and thought I'd add my humble opinion

    I honestly don't think you can be overly prepared or equipped for the task in hand as a pro, coming from a wildlife background. I've always found that by putting the effort in to hike 1800ft up with a 500mm f4 and a wide breaking my back Ive always got the shots where others on the same hike have failed as they haven't wanted to put the effort in to carry/invest in the 500. I agree with Marc its all about mastering what you have to work with and getting the best from it.

    By god though does having the right tools for the job help. I'd never think of working on my Norton 650ss without a good quality set of tools that are right for the job.

    For me pro photography is the same. Our industry is saturated with tens of thousands of people who produce good images giving them away for free or very little shooting on yet another d3 or 1d and In my opinion if theres a bit of kit that can help distance us as pros from that part of the industry and help up create not just a good but a great to a ultimate image then amen to that.

    (it reminds me very much of what I have seen in the lithographic printing industry in the uk where everyone undercut and undercut each other till nearly all the companies were just working not to make a profit but at a loss and over the past few years thousands have gone out of business leaving only the ones that offered the quality level and service and stuck by there prices.)

    for me 40 60 80 is enough resolution for now till we see a massive leap again akin to going from a d3 or 1d Mark IIn up to a h4d-40 or phase IQ a difference in image quality thats a sight to behold. And I look forward to yet again investing in equipment and taking my first steps into MDF in the following weeks. I agree with Siebel Id rather drive my old focus and spend as much as my profit as I can back into my business and create the best photography I possibly can.

    I look forward to more advances akin to true focus and the iq screens this really is a step in the right direction to a much more feature filled system.

    slightly coherent ramble over

    Tom

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    It's not just the DOF that's important, nodal points are greatly influenced by tolerances. Lack of a mirror box puts the lens very close to the image plane and therefore tolerances must be a known variable. Alpa brand lenses are mounted in a precision machined framed that take these variables into account...it's not just hype. This is a finely crafted tool and it's this precision that allow 3rd party backs and lenses to exploit every bit of resolution.
    Actually, the lens to sensor distance is not important. Depth of focus (not Depth of Field) is related to the angle of the image cone, which is dependent on the aperture only--focal length does not matter. This means if the the lens is off by x mm, the degree the image is out of focus will be the same at a given aperture regardless of focal length or lens design.

    As I said, Alpa makes really nice cameras, but then do a whole host of other companies. (Oddly enough, it is much harder to make a camera with a moving mirror than something as simple as an Alpa.) I have yet to see any evidence that Alpa is producing higher resolution photographs than other cameras.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Mike

    EXACTLY ON TARGET !
    We are in an intermediate status caught between analogue and Digital. If you want, call it hybrid Photography.
    One more example:
    Kodak has recently launched a new interline chip with 29 MPix. Now this is certainly not a sensor which is capable of Fashion Photography, but - it does not need a shutter ! It is also about 40 % less light sensitive than a normal CCD, but as we all know if there is a market there will be devellopment, after this comes improvement and competition and after some years we will have a valid all purpose solution for highly integrated cameras which can do everything we want with a minimum of parts- thus becoming incredibly cheap.
    Now imagine to put such a beast into a module with a firmly attached lens(Ricoh!) and calibrate this unit at manufacturing, adding a dedicated firmware (like a sharpness,transmission,vignetting and distortion fingerprint) and use this with standardized, open SDK interface, modular software (see iPhone camera iOS 4 and soon 5)............

    It could be very close, just someone needs to make it.

    Greetings from Munich
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Shashin,

    You mention that tolerances are a factor of depth of focus. Being that depth of field is measured in macroscopic units and depth of focus is measured in microscopic units. It's my understanding that depth of focus increases with longer focal lengths or closer subject distance while depth of field decreases. I'm new to this, so bear with me. Thanks for the inputs.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I am not getting the message of this thread here a 100%, and won't make any particular comment, especially not argue on the claim that the precision of Alpa cameras (which one?) is doubtful and over-emphasized by the company manufacturing it. There are enough users out there that are happy with its precision, the way it is built and the resulting images, as are others using other camera brands. Fair enough and no point to argue here, it's each his own way of thinking and belief.

    However, and with all due respect, I wish to correct an error and wrong information given in your post, Shashin:

    "... a company that makes their cameras too short--you always shim away from the lens plane with an Alpa ..."

    This is not true: there are about as many configurations (camera-lens with its particular DB) where it needs to take away shims from the factory standard pre-shimming coming with each adapter than to add some.

    Best regards
    Thierry
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post
    I am not getting the message of this thread here a 100%, and won't make any particular comment, especially not argue on the claim that the precision of Alpa cameras (which one?) is doubtful and over-emphasized by the company manufacturing it. There are enough users out there that are happy with its precision, the way it is built and the resulting images, as are others using other camera brands. Fair enough and no point to argue here, it's each his own way of thinking and belief.

    However, and with all due respect, I wish to correct an error and wrong information given in your post, Shashin:

    "... a company that makes their cameras too short--you always shim away from the lens plane with an Alpa ..."

    This is not true: there are about as many configurations (camera-lens with its particular DB) where it needs to take away shims from the factory standard pre-shimming coming with each adapter than to add some.

    Best regards
    Thierry
    Thierry, my apologies. I have heard so many owner say the camera needs to be shimmed, I assumed they were always added shims. I did not realize shims were installed from the beginning.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    No harm done, Shashin.
    Yes, there are some shims in the adapter plate from factory, so that the back can be shimmed in both directions:

    Alpa's Shimming Process

    Best
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Thierry, my apologies. I have heard so many owner say the camera needs to be shimmed, I assumed they were always added shims. I did not realize shims were installed from the beginning.
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Shashin,

    You mention that tolerances are a factor of depth of focus. Being that depth of field is measured in macroscopic units and depth of focus is measured in microscopic units. It's my understanding that depth of focus increases with longer focal lengths or closer subject distance while depth of field decreases. I'm new to this, so bear with me. Thanks for the inputs.
    Depth of field is an object space attribute (in front of the camera) and changes with focal length.

    Depth of focus is an image space attribute (between the lens and sensor) and is related to the aperture (f-number). You can think of an aperture as the angular size of the light cone coming from the lens as you look from the image plane. At focus, the tip of this cone intersects the image plane. If you move the image plane, the image will continue to appear sharp as long as the diameter of the cone section is equal to or greater than the permissible circle of confusion. The smaller the aperture, the farther you can move. The amount you can move the image plane and still have an acceptably sharp image is depth of focus.

    Depth of field and depth of focus are related, but when object distance is the same, two different focal length lenses will have different size entrance pupils at a given aperture. So the angular size of an entrance pupil varies with focal length. (the f-number is a ratio of focal length to pupil, not object distance to pupil, so its angular size is preserved in image space.)

    There is a number that works the same way in object space and that is numeric aperture (this is not the same as an f-number). That is the angular size of the entrance pupil of the lens from the object. When the numeric aperture is constant (for a given cycle of confusion), then the depth of field is the same as the light cone from the object has the same angle--a 100mm lens at 2m and f/4 will have the same numeric aperture as a 200mm at 4m and f/4 resulting in identical depth of field for a given format (circle of confusion changes with format).

    Photographers generally talk in terms of depth of focus and so you have terms like "back focus." Camera designers are interested in camera tolerances and depth of focus is more meaningful as they want to know how tight things have to be. (There really is no such thing as "back focus," rather what you wanted in focus is not.)

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    In the spirit of friendly and diplomatic discussion, I'd have to somewhat disagree with the above.

    Depending on what photographic business you are in, and for how long, it is conceivable to spend copious amounts of money on gear ... given the price of pro gear, including lighting and all ancillary stuff involved with professional digital capture. Plus, the "business" of photography is often infected with personal desires that are not exactly conducive to a pure profit motivation ... Guy being the poster child for this concept (and to be fair, I admit to it myself, since I don't need a lot of this stuff to do what I do, but I want it). So, it most certainly is not a waste of money if you enjoy it and it brings some personal pleasure while making a living. For example, I chose to get a Leica S2 kit in lieu of a new fancy car, and instead just put new brakes on my almost 7 year old Volvo SUV. It's just personal, not business

    In addition, well run photographic businesses factor in the cost. For all my "growth years" in MFD, I charged a digital capture fee for each job (as did all the photographers I hired when working as an Art Director). Factored in over a two year cycle, and including the tax write offs, in effect, I never personally paid for any of my professional equipment ... the clients did. Now that I am semi-retired, it is a different story and I am more aware of the cost to me personally, which hasn't made me a lot more prudent, just a lot more aware

    I'd also offer a counter point to the notion that "... after a certain point the equipment is one of the least important parts of producing compelling photographs." This is a variation on the well worn chestnut that "it is the person behind the camera, not the camera." ... which no one in their right mind would disagree with. However, if you look at it from the perspective of someone who has mastered their craft and is branching out into new areas or different applications of their talents ... sometimes better gear can make a difference and can be conducive to growth, if for no other reason than it's exciting to master a new piece of more demanding gear, and make it do what you creatively envision.

    Will it improve the end product? Again, that depends on the creative intent and skill of the user. There are more aspects to larger capture like 40, 60 or 80 meg MFD than just for large prints. I personally see a difference even with prints up to 17" X 22" ... if others do not, that is not my concern ... my only concern is what I see since it is my work, not theirs.

    BTW, I disagree with the article regarding prints no matter how well it can be documented logically or mathematically. In most every case, prints look better than their screen version ... and prints from my larger format cameras look better than those from the smaller format cameras ... speaking strictly about the aesthetics of the print itself, not the content, which is the part that the person behind the camera is solely in charge of contributing.

    -Marc
    I never intend anything other than friendly discussion.

    But despite your protest, a photography business is still a business. I got into the photography business out of my love of photography, I work in photography despite a rather poor return on investment because I enjoy the work and the challenge of it. But if I cannot pay the rent or feed myself on it's profits, I won't be in the business very long. That is unless it's not really a business, it's a hobby that I have other sources of funding to pay for. I'm sure Guy or any other sensible, successful business person has to agree with that.

    I've bought and sold my way through tens if not hundreds of thousands of photo dollars over the 40+ years I've been doing photography. I never accounted that as a lump of expenditures to be proud of, just the costs of doing what I love. If you're calling yourself a pro and NOT accounting for your expenditures against your income and profitability, you're not running a business. Many pros do not .. They are not businessmen, they are wage earners who have a job with some organization that pays them to make photographs. Those pros generally fight for every piece of equipment paid for by their employers, and rarely get to use the ultimate equipment as it is simply unnecessary to most of their true working needs..

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    One more example:
    Kodak has recently launched a new interline chip with 29 MPix. Now this is certainly not a sensor which is capable of Fashion Photography, but - it does not need a shutter !
    Hi Stefan

    Thanks a lot for the example! That is exactly the kind innovation that could possibly take another sequence out of the formerly mechanical process. You and the folks at Get DPI are far more up-to-date on the already existing new tech than I am...so it's great for me to come in here and find out about it

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Shashin,

    Thanks for that, nicely written. Depth of focus is more about the symmetry or lateral movement as it relates to the image plane.

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    The very concept of the "end of tolerances reached" is ridiculous. I remember reading as a child, an article headlined " The human body is incapable of running 100m in less than 10s" or some such tripe. Tell that to Usain Bolt and his competitors! The mistake that most people who make such predictions make is that they fail to acknowledge that the many variables that make an outcome will simultaneously stop evolving. My favourite giggle is the assertion that "DSLR's are improving so fast that they will soon be just a good as MFDB's". This might well be true if Phase, Leaf, Hassy, Leica et al decide tomorrow that R&D is a waste of their time and money. Place your bets now on how likely this is to happen......
    It is important to not underestimate how much pressure the there is on the top shooters and the MF manufacturers to keep innovating. For me, the minute something becomes the "in" look, it is time for me to be doing something else. There are many more shooters running this line of thinking, and most of them run below the radar. Having access to new innovations can often drive new image styles. I know that the practices I currently use are a direct result of the availability of the current gen of ultra-res backs and a lot of the images I currently produce were impossible with, for example, my P25 back. Whenever I get my hands on a new piece of kit, I ask myself, "what creative oportunities does this give me that I didn't have before?". Almost invariably, this leads to new techniques that change the flavour of my work. Having been shooting with the Aptus 12 and IQ180 for a few months now, I am already evolving my style to exploit the capabilities of these backs and at the same time, continuing the dialogue with Phase, Alpa etc, about what it might be nice to have on the next gen of kit. What is also exciting is to watch the technology pioneered in each new gen of gear flow down through a given manufacturers range. There is a lot of amazing talent amongst the shooters who don't yet have access to the bleeding edge gear and they do a lot to evolve the craft of photography.
    Who knows where the next breakthroughs in tech will come? Perhaps shutterless cameras, 80000 ISO CCD's, some entirely new sensor technology we never imagined. Maybe it willl be some amazing new lens or shutter tech. Whatever it is, you can rest assured that we are nowhere near the end of tolerances.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Well said Bryan!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Siebel

    maybe a misunderstanding on your side and a titel that supposes people will add a second half sentence to this (by themselves) - so the full sentence should maybe read:
    The end of tolerances reached with actual gear and manufacturing technology ?
    I also think this will evolve - but not with the current concepts. let me sum up:

    wideangles without retrofocus for 60+ Mpixel are - OUT !

    adapters which need to be made with tolerances of below 10 Microns are - OUT !

    complicated usage with external gear (Laserpointers?) and setup of sharpnesspoints by calculations and guesstimations are - OUT !

    viewfinders need to become electronic - Live view is - IN !

    Improved usability and fast workflows with integration of Digital Photography into todays communicative peripherals is - IN !

    technical devellopment for future concepts and usage of todays electronics (as already shown in Smartphones and other consumer devices) for cameras is - IN !

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Could have edited my previous post but decided to put this separate to make it stand out - THESIS:

    A Camera that is still able to shoot film will never be a perfect digital Camera.

    Think about it- I believe this is the central point. Everything else logically derives from this.

    And - of course I know that even our HCam-B1 can still use film (at least in Theory)

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Hi Stefan,

    And while writing this, there are thousands of photographers out taking perfect images with their cameras. So it will be as well in the future.



    Am still not getting the whole "picture" and meaning of such a discussion.

    Bryan has summed it up wonderfully: there will always be right cameras/optics/accessories using the latest technologies and producing the best possible images. So it was in the past, so it is currently, and so it shall be in the future.

    Best regards
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Could have edited my previous post but decided to put this separate to make it stand out - THESIS:

    A Camera that is still able to shoot film will never be a perfect digital Camera.

    Think about it- I believe this is the central point. Everything else logically derives from this.

    And - of course I know that even our HCam-B1 can still use film (at least in Theory)

    Regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Hi Thierry

    well, seems to be not quite. See color casts, see focusing problems and see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow (iPhone Holder and Viewfinder Plus app).

    But there needs to be a clear cut. The actual concepts do stop here.
    The problems may be handled for now with 80 Mpix. But what next ?
    If you want to make resolution larger, get electronic finders and plug the devices "into the soon to be everwhere cloud" there needs to be a radical change.

    The Japanese have understood, take a look at their concept cameras.
    My criticism goes to the actual professional "Highend camp"- where are your ideas , where are your visions ? What is the most wishful items your customers want and how can we deliver ?

    I donīt hear that ! And Thierry - as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old. Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe - but I donīt think this also will work for tomorrows escalations of the forementioned
    complications. There is a limit where even Swiss cannot pass.

    So: where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?
    But not only Alpa, what does Hasselblad say, what is the statement of Phase/Leaf about this ? How will Rodenstock and Schneider position themselves for these tasks ?
    A new electronic shutter ? (20 years available by Sinar and Horseman)
    Lenses with a little bit better Optics ? (does this really change something ? No !)
    Develop technology which already exists in the consumer market with 5 -10 years delay ?

    15-20 ago the digital photography evolution was driven by Leaf, Dicomed, Megavison, Imacon.

    Today the news come from Japan or China. Is it professional to use outdated technology with the sole advantage of higher resolution ?
    (Slower, complicated, Non connected ......)
    Phase has done some steps in the right direction, with levelling a better display and the attempt for a better live view.
    But why no CMOS ? How much easier and more efficient would be a camera that actually shows you whats captured with 100 % or even more Zoom, if you want even at darkness or with any extreme lens attached ?

    No Thierry -the Proīs are sleeping, what Siebel demands he certainly does, but Iīm sure he also makes a lot of his money now with 35mm bodies - not because of quality or better sharpness. Read what he wrote - itīs exactly on point:

    >>It is important to not underestimate how much pressure there is on the top shooters and the MF manufacturers to keep innovating. For me, the minute something becomes the "in" look, it is time for me to be doing something else. There are many more shooters running this line of thinking, and most of them run below the radar. Having access to new innovations can often drive new image styles.<<

    Innovation does not mean keep the old stuff as long as possible, even if it hurts.

    Regards

    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 13th August 2011 at 04:52.
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post

    Schneider Kreuznach has copied our TS lensconcept (with our help - but without paying for it....).
    Rodenstock has silently switched to Retrofocus without speaking openly about it (which would really help!). The classic gear makers in the Viewcamera market still seem to hope this will somehow go away or be solved by a miracle.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan Steib - HCam.de
    Stefan,

    These are some pretty sweeping statements you make without so much as a fragment of substantiation. What help exactly did you provide Schneider, was it your present company or your last one (the one that ended in a messy, slanderous divorce, if I recall correctly), what contractual obligations did Schneider undertake to pay for and what evidence is there of it. If you want to put this stuff out in public, you better be prepared to substantiate it.

    There was nothing "silent" about Rodenstock choosing to go retrofocus with their designs. One of the first things I was informed of by my Rodenstock dealer when these lenses first appeared was the fact that they had chosen to depart from the traditional symmetric designs. I have since had many conversations about this both with dealers and directly with Rodenstock themselves. They've certainly never been silent about it to me, nor to any of the many top pros I associate with - and let's admit it, we are their primary customers. I also have had very explicit disclosure about this from my tech cam manufacturer of choice, Alpa. Just because they did not take out full page ads in every photo mag worldwide does not make it "silent". Frankly, as a pro user of backs with sensors that struggle with lenscast when using wide symmetrical lenses, I'm damned grateful they did go retrofocus, and further, they informed me of the fact, as well as of the downside of their decision. This has allowed me to make informed decisions about my lens choices.

    It seems to me that having taken it upon yourself to make these sweeping statements in a public forum, you now have some explaining to do.

    We are all ears....
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    I think most of us would agree with Roger's prediction that future improvements will not come from more critical manufacturing tolerances but rather from some form of technological advance. And while I do believe that such technology will be developed...I think it's the weak link in the super-high megapixel backs right now. Which simply means that the tech guys need to catch up with the hardware guys. I can envision a camera system with a single lens capturing an image that can be post processed into whatever the photographer wants it to look like. And it's got an Apple logo on it

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Thierry


    No Thierry -the Proīs are sleeping, what Siebel demands he certainly does, but Iīm sure he also makes a lot of his money now with 35mm bodies - not because of quality or better sharpness. Read what he wrote - itīs exactly on point:



    Regards

    Stefan

    Thank you, but I am wide awake. Furthermore, as I have stated many times before on this forum and LuLa, I make over 90% of my pictures, both professional and personal, with one or onother of my MFDB's. My personal carry-everywhere camera is in fact and ALPA STC, usually with an IQ180 on it. My approach has always been to use what I consider the best currently available for the type of work I do. In the last 2 years, my Nikon has been used on only 2 shoots, and on those shoots for less than 5% of the images.
    Siebel
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    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Hello Bryan

    I can openly explain what Schneider did, they got our construction drawings after signing an NDA with us, a prototyping contract and a volume contract proposal for a 90mm TS lens. After working on this for about 1 year Schneider stopped the project, broke the contract, did not fully pay the already delivered prototypes and stayed silent for a bit over 2 years. Now after they knew we did not have worldwide patents (we told them in the course of our talks)after the first NDA disclosure period had run out, they presented their improved versions of the Hartblei Superrotator Concept with the included clamps .On Photokina I asked them to get into talks, they agreed but then again for 4 months nothing happend. we got a letter by their lawyers that Schneider does not see any reason to speak to us about getting to a solution which will be a compromise for the both of us ( and I have not asked for a lot of money or similar, just that they openly honour the amount of work that they have taken from our development).
    You can call this what you want, itīs up to you. (BTW I have all the contracts and emails and Drawings- I can proof everything!)

    About the Calibr8 Colormanagement Company_ you err I was not involved in this, these were my former partners, who also where in Partnership with Sinar/Mr. Fessler ( actually the now Sinar company was a namechange from Calibr8 AG in Switzerland ). And Iīm very happy I got as far away from these guys as far as I could. I donīt think this does interest someone here, but I also have everything in written and to be proofed form if needed.

    But Bryan - what does this have to do with the facts and Questions that I have asked - could it be, you are personally connected to these people ?
    I thought you are a photographer who is interested in Innovation ?
    I did not personally tackle you, so why are you trying to do this with me ?

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Thierry


    Innovation does not mean keep the old stuff as long as possible, even if it hurts.

    Regards

    Stefan
    Que?
    I hardly think the MF manufacturers have been standing still. I've been shooting MF since 1986 and MF digital since 1995 and have witnessed phenomenal innovation and advancement in that time from all the major players including some that are no longer with us.

    I understand that you are impatient for more advances and faster. We all are, to some extent. I can only surmise from your rant that you seem to think the world of DSLR and MFDB manufacturing are part of the same market. They patently are not, and never have been. The business environment is different, the development cost structure is different as are the funding and sales models, user profiles and expectations differ immensely as do the revenue streams.

    I respect your right to hold these views, but please share with us how things can actually be different, given the market realities. I am genuinely interested.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Well Bryan-the following statements are not from me- you may guess who said this (about Phase One- translated from german by me):

    ....Journalism-, Portrait- and Marriagephotographers.... are better off using other systems.....

    Hasselblad, Leica and Phase One should cooperate to win new users for Mediumformat because the number of users is smaller than we would wish.....

    We are looking for makers of CMOS sensors, CCDīs Sensors seem to be hitting their limits,we would not have a problem to realize such a solution together with other manufacturers.......if medium format wants to survive, all thinkable cooperations are necessary !

    Now guess who said this ?
    Henrik Hakonsson - Phase One - taken from his Interview in german magazine Profifoto 4/2010.

    So What happened ? Did Phase not get a CMOS ?
    There is a lot more on this Interview (one of the most aspiring and important documents I have read during the last years !).

    But interesting that writing these ideas here under my name is getting these responses ?

    Bryan - the shrinking is happening, the Market is moving, you would certainly not call someone a bad photographer because he uses a canon or nikon body. Or would you ?

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  40. #40
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hello Bryan

    I can openly explain what Schneider did, they got our construction drawings after signing an NDA with us, a prototyping contract and a volume contract proposal for a 90mm TS lens. After working on this for about 1 year Schneider stopped the project, broke the contract, did not fully pay the already delivered prototypes and stayed silent for a bit over 2 years. Now after they knew we did not have worldwide patents (we told them in the course of our talks)after the first NDA disclosure period had run out, they presented their improved versions of the Hartblei Superrotator Concept with the included clamps .On Photokina I asked them to get into talks, they agreed but then again for 4 months nothing happend. we got a letter by their lawyers that Schneider does not see any reason to speak to us about getting to a solution which will be a compromise for the both of us ( and I have not asked for a lot of money or similar, just that they openly honour the amount of work that they have taken from our development).
    You can call this what you want, itīs up to you. (BTW I have all the contracts and emails and Drawings- I can proof everything!)

    About the Calibr8 Colormanagement Company_ you err I was not involved in this, these were my former partners, who also where in Partnership with Sinar/Mr. Fessler ( actually the now Sinar company was a namechange from Calibr8 AG in Switzerland ). And Iīm very happy I got as far away from these guys as far as I could. I donīt think this does interest someone here, but I also have everything in written and to be proofed form if needed.

    But Bryan - what does this have to do with the facts and Questions that I have asked - could it be, you are personally connected to these people ?
    I thought you are a photographer who is interested in Innovation ?
    I did not personally tackle you, so why are you trying to do this with me ?

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Hmm, it seems you have had a tough lesson in the legal practice of commercial confidentiality. I'm genuinely sorry you feel you got burnt. This is why it is so important to stay on top of your patent protection, IP rights and keep NDA's current. I'd not be surprised if Schneider have a different perspective on the situation but thanks nonethless for the clarification.

    I am very pleased for you that you are no longer in business with people you do not agree with. This is a good thing and I wish you well. All of us photographers are interested in anyone who is bringing innovation to the table. Good luck.

    I'm sorry you feel I am "doing this with me". I do think it does the industry no service to have dirty linen aired in public, and you, Sir, have come dangerously close to doing this. I would have called you on it no matter whether I had ties to the company or individual you named or even if I did not. You have now provided what you consider the justification for your comments, and that, as far as I am concerned, is that.

    I am, as you point out, a photographer very serious about innovation and I watch with some interest, the products you are bringing to market. As an architectural photographer, this would be natural, don't you think? As a pro photographer who has been one of the many "unpaid beta testers" that manufacturers rely on, I have many friends among the staff and owners of the companies whose names we all know in the world of MFDB. However, for the record, I know nobody at Schneider and the 2 people I know at Rodenstock I met for the one and only time at a trade show in Dubai a few months ago. My interest is in clearly understanding what you are saying

    Once again, I wish you well with your business.

    Kind regards,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  41. #41
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Well for me the technology of MF in the last couple years has actually helped me on a couple levels. First MF itself just by the sheer fact I can get a tremendous file for any need imaginably. I have clients that go big a lot but I also have clients or jobs that are in the grab and go category. Which puts me in a situation where I need both 35 and MF . Now the technology alone from Phase here has changed that a lot with sensor plus. Since the acquisition of my old P40 I have been able to cheat this 2 system setup and use my back for more uses. From a business standpoint the ROI has been much more acceptable by plan to own this technology in MF. I simple get more use out of MF. now today with the IQ160 which no matter how I slice the cheese was a even bigger investment than the P40, here I had to not only take a bigger jump in the tech but also a very large upgrade fee to get to full frame and 60mpx. Now this took a load of thought and more important the justification of it. I know many think I just like the toy factor it really is not the case. I really have to justify a 20k upgrade in my own head first and the ROi that comes with. I gained a extra 5 mpx in sensor plus which pretty much buries any Pro level 35 with quality of file is equal too or better. That is a big gain. Monday the back gets switched to full resolution for ad work. So with one back I can switch back and forth depending on need at hand.

    To me this is a huge benefit in technology that gives me the freedom and ROI to eliminate the 35mm from my bags. I still have a small Sony but more as a cheap shooting solution than anything else.

    Now the IQ brings another factor in as it is much easier to use with a tech cam. Okay this part is a long reply to this technology which I won't get into but as a business and as a artist I am able to mend those two together and get the best of both worlds . So in effect the technology has helped me grow as a shooter but also being a responsible business man.

    My wife may not think so . LOL. But the truth is I solved problems and frankly that is a Pros job is to solve someone's needs in art. Now I can solve my own needs. This is all good and next step for me at least is a tech came that also gives me a third option on platform from one back. After 36 years doing this I never had my needs filled like I do today. Case in point I started digital back in 1990 and it sucked bad, we have really grown here and new tech will help the next guy if not me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  42. #42
    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Stefan,

    Am not sure why it needs to attack Alpa such frontally and directly (by the name), something which I wasn't expecting. I was commenting on a general basis, what happens and what will always happen in a world of technology, not meaning to speak about any particular brand.

    Therefore, let me just answer point by point, right below and directly in your post and comments. Without wanting to argue by any means, it needs to be corrected factually.

    Best regards
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Thierry

    well, seems to be not quite. See color casts, see focusing problems and see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow (iPhone Holder and Viewfinder Plus app).

    Well, so what? There are no focusing problems if you know your gear and are a professional. To pretend that Alpa (and other brands) is (are) "attempting somehow" implies that they did not succeed. What a claim. Again, there are thousands out shooting daily and getting what they need, without any problem. As for colour casts, it's the same story.

    But there needs to be a clear cut. The actual concepts do stop here.
    The problems may be handled for now with 80 Mpix. But what next ?
    If you want to make resolution larger, get electronic finders and plug the devices "into the soon to be everwhere cloud" there needs to be a radical change.

    Changes always take place at the appropriate timing. There will not be a clear cut. So it has been, so it will be. So what you mean to say, is that every photographers has to throw away its current gear, because he is not able to get his work done?

    The Japanese have understood, take a look at their concept cameras.
    My criticism goes to the actual professional "Highend camp"- where are your ideas , where are your visions ? What is the most wishful items your customers want and how can we deliver ?

    It is somehow insulting to pretend here that the "high-end camp" does not have any concepts nor ideas, as much for camera manufacturers, as for those providing the best optics and digital backs since years (in fact since the begin of the digital age). Do you really believe that they are not some sensed people in those companies thinking about future?

    I donīt hear that ! And Thierry - as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old. Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe -

    It does, effectively.

    but I donīt think this also will work for tomorrows escalations of the forementioned
    complications. There is a limit where even Swiss cannot pass.

    Let's see, and not speculate what the future is about.

    So: where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?
    But not only Alpa, what does Hasselblad say, what is the statement of Phase/Leaf about this ? How will Rodenstock and Schneider position themselves for these tasks ?
    A new electronic shutter ? (20 years available by Sinar and Horseman)
    Lenses with a little bit better Optics ? (does this really change something ? No !)
    Develop technology which already exists in the consumer market with 5 -10 years delay ?

    Stefan, are you seriously thinking what you are writing? I simply have no comment to this.

    15-20 ago the digital photography evolution was driven by Leaf, Dicomed, Megavison, Imacon.

    Today the news come from Japan or China. Is it professional to use outdated technology with the sole advantage of higher resolution ?
    (Slower, complicated, Non connected ......)
    Phase has done some steps in the right direction, with levelling a better display and the attempt for a better live view.
    But why no CMOS ? How much easier and more efficient would be a camera that actually shows you whats captured with 100 % or even more Zoom, if you want even at darkness or with any extreme lens attached ?

    That news come from Japan and China (and some other far-east countries), doesn't mean that there are no news elsewhere, beside the fact that new technologies and products have always been developed in those Asian countries, since the ancient times.

    No Thierry -the Proīs are sleeping, what Siebel demands he certainly does, but Iīm sure he also makes a lot of his money now with 35mm bodies - not because of quality or better sharpness. Read what he wrote - itīs exactly on point:

    >>It is important to not underestimate how much pressure there is on the top shooters and the MF manufacturers to keep innovating. For me, the minute something becomes the "in" look, it is time for me to be doing something else. There are many more shooters running this line of thinking, and most of them run below the radar. Having access to new innovations can often drive new image styles.<<

    I am a 100% agreeing with what Bryan is writing, obviously, simply not with your comments and bashing of the existing products. Again, people (in our debate the photographers) work with what they have, whatever this gear is, the latest most expensive technology or the must outdated gear. Usually there is even an emotional factor involved in the type of gear they are using. Most of those photographers are professionals with years of experience and knowledge of how to produce superior images. And they know which gear fits them the best. They are living, working and producing today, and from the many photographers I have got the chance to meet and from whom I could see the work, those produced images are outstanding.
    As for innovation, it is part of the cycle, it happens, if we want or not, at its own pace (apparently too slow for you, if I understand it right), and everybody will have to deal and do with what will come.


    Innovation does not mean keep the old stuff as long as possible, even if it hurts.

    That is somehow insulting, not for myself, but for many photographers. All deserve respect, no matter which gear they are producing and making an earning with.

    Regards

    Stefan
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

  43. #43
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Let's try to be careful about legal stuff with any company if we can avoid that I think it is best overall as it avoids other legal issues for all concerned. We really don't want to get into tit for tat on that area. Thanks I would appreciate this. Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  44. #44
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Thierry

    these questions go to the whole industry, but it seems nobody wants to hear them !
    Why do you feel attacked ? I didnīt ! I am just asking what the plans are for a future vision ? I have deep sympathy for people who do something like this on their website

    http://m.alpa.ch/dms/about/corporate...eSoundLogo.mp3

    But Thierry, as canon has done this World expo 2010 and presented their ideas, I ask- is this so difficult to ask what is the professional Highend Photoindustry after ?
    I donīt hear anything. Not on the Photokina and not on the press nor on the internet.
    The news are passing by. A company like Sigma, who using the Foveon chip at least show their flag, whatever it costs them... but this is refreshing. Does it get them any respect ? NO - instead everybody is bashing them.
    Could it be that Photographers are conservatives ?
    What happened in the german Photoscala Forum after the message was published that the iPhone Forum is now the most frequented one on Flickr and -god beware- some innocent souls said that there is plenty of creative resources to be seen in these photos, it seems clear that for many young people this is the way to express, knowing nada about phototechnics but doing great shots - democratic photography, put online and communicated with plenty of users, just for fun. You should have read the comments of the so called serious Photographers (junk, not worth looking at,destroying photography.....etc.pp)
    this I call disrespect, who says that an iPhone Photo cannot be marvelous in itīs whole unity and creativity ?
    I have used large format and MF for 35 years now. I was one of the first users in Germany for MFDB - Bigshot, Leaf brick, Megavision, Phase scanners.
    But to me it does not feel right anymore. Our camera is something for bringing back fun to highend Photography, using Canon lenses and allowing superwideangles with maximum resolution.
    Why does a photographer (me ) have to build this ? where is the industry in this game ? Couldnīt they have seen what happens and with much more resources do this even better ?
    I love photography, in my heart and I live it. It must be allowed to ask some questions especially if others also have asked them but maybe not in one letter or in a defined Thesis.

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  45. #45
    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Stefan,

    I do not feel personally attacked, but you named Alpa in conjunction with the words and sentences, among others, "see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow", "Highend camp", "as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old", "Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe", "where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?", ...., as well as the full MFDB industry, included the photographers (sleeping, using outdated gear, ...) which can only be taken as a lack of respect.

    I wished to answer in the name of Alpa, which I did in the name of the "right of reply" and a little bit in the name of the other manufacturers and photographers who all come out of your comments as stupid and not awaken, for the record.

    Best regards
    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Thierry

    these questions go to the whole industry, but it seems nobody wants to hear them !
    Why do you feel attacked ? I didnīt ! I am just asking what the plans are for a future vision ? I have deep sympathy for people who do something like this on their website

    http://m.alpa.ch/dms/about/corporate...eSoundLogo.mp3

    But Thierry, as canon has done this World expo 2010 and presented their ideas, I ask- is this so difficult to ask what is the professional Highend Photoindustry after ?
    I donīt hear anything. Not on the Photokina and not on the press nor on the internet.
    The news are passing by. A company like Sigma, who using the Foveon chip at least show their flag, whatever it costs them... but this is refreshing. Does it get them any respect ? NO - instead everybody is bashing them.
    Could it be that Photographers are conservatives ?
    What happened in the german Photoscala Forum after the message was published that the iPhone Forum is now the most frequented one on Flickr and -god beware- some innocent souls said that there is plenty of creative resources to be seen in these photos, it seems clear that for many young people this is the way to express, knowing nada about phototechnics but doing great shots - democratic photography, put online and communicated with plenty of users, just for fun. You should have read the comments of the so called serious Photographers (junk, not worth looking at,destroying photography.....etc.pp)
    this I call disrespect, who says that an iPhone Photo cannot be marvelous in itīs whole unity and creativity ?
    I have used large format and MF for 35 years now. I was one of the first users in Germany for MFDB - Bigshot, Leaf brick, Megavision, Phase scanners.
    But to me it does not feel right anymore. Our camera is something for bringing back fun to highend Photography, using Canon lenses and allowing superwideangles with maximum resolution.
    Why does a photographer (me ) have to build this ? where is the industry in this game ? Couldnīt they have seen what happens and with much more resources do this even better ?
    I love photography, in my heart and I live it. It must be allowed to ask some questions especially if others also have asked them but maybe not in one letter or in a defined Thesis.

    Greetings from Munich

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Admin Note: All opinions expressed in this forum are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views, beliefs or opinions of the forum owners, operators or administrative staff.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  47. #47
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post

    Bryan has summed it up wonderfully: there will always be right cameras/optics/accessories using the latest technologies and producing the best possible images. So it was in the past, so it is currently, and so it shall be in the future.

    Best regards
    Thierry
    Excellent summary!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  48. #48
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    We're not at the end yet: it appears that Guy and Jack remain quite tolerant.

  49. #49
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    >>>>I do not feel personally attacked, but you named Alpa in conjunction with the words and sentences, among others, "see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow", "Highend camp", "as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old", "Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe", "where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?", ...., as well as the full MFDB industry, included the photographers (sleeping, using outdated gear, ...) which can only be taken as a lack of respect.>>>>

    Ah- if this was the case I apologize , maybe we should speak german then, reading between the lines is something I donīt do, this was not my intention.
    Actual attempt to get there somehow was regarding the iPhone and Viewfinder app which I absolutely welcome - it shows that People at Alpa think into this direction.

    I am absolutly sure they could say something about it, but this is the funny thing, nobody really answers on these questions !
    Instead the political approach starts, blowing out a fog cloud.
    Mr. Hakonsson was about the only one recently speaking clear words, and after this interview I have not heard any more from him too. I am Member of the PMA and read their magazines, I read about most of the Websites for Pro Highendstuff, but all over - the same - silence.

    And Thierry - fact is, Autofocus if it exists on the MF bodies is about 2-3 slower than on 35mm, Iīd say the status of MF Autofocus is now about at 2002-2003 canon/Nikon AF performance (best estimation).

    Pentax did show with the 645D what the direction could be, I also applaud to the Guts of Leica to Launch the S2, but both lack on either the quality (Pentax -I donīt think so but this is how many also on this forum say!) of lenses, or the number of available lenses(Leica), keeping them from getting into full success.

    I also know that todays Highend manufacturers have shrunk, the budgets are not like they once used to be. So it is incredibly difficult to sport innovation combined with keeping the company running healthy.
    But this is what will ignite the customers, a vision can even run a whole company- see RED, they know what they want to do, sometimes a bit too far into the future, but they do it and they talk about it.

    Of course this is american style , but I wish us Europeans sometimes got more of this spirit of enthusiasm.

    So once again - pulling the words out of the context and looking for an insult is misleading, I did not want to attack anybody, especially not you as we know each other and I know what good work you do.

    But I am still waiting for ANYBODY to give me a helpful hint what will come after the "Hybrid Aera" as I have called it before in this thread.
    Is there nobody who has a wish what his camera should do or behave like ? Come on - the customers are the most valuable source, tell us your ideas and wishes, may they sound totally crazy, there is always a core and a thought that will catch on. Did you know that Mobile phones only exist because of Startreckīs communicator ?

    Iīd be so curious to hear about how fellow photographers would propose how to get this improved.

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  50. #50
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    Re: The end of tolerances reached ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Well Bryan-the following statements are not from me- you may guess who said this (about Phase One- translated from german by me):

    ....Journalism-, Portrait- and Marriagephotographers.... are better off using other systems.....

    Hasselblad, Leica and Phase One should cooperate to win new users for Mediumformat because the number of users is smaller than we would wish.....

    We are looking for makers of CMOS sensors, CCDīs Sensors seem to be hitting their limits,we would not have a problem to realize such a solution together with other manufacturers.......if medium format wants to survive, all thinkable cooperations are necessary !

    Now guess who said this ?
    Henrik Hakonsson - Phase One - taken from his Interview in german magazine Profifoto 4/2010.

    So What happened ? Did Phase not get a CMOS ?
    There is a lot more on this Interview (one of the most aspiring and important documents I have read during the last years !).

    But interesting that writing these ideas here under my name is getting these responses ?

    Bryan - the shrinking is happening, the Market is moving, you would certainly not call someone a bad photographer because he uses a canon or nikon body. Or would you ?

    regards

    Stefan Steib HCam.de
    Stefan,

    I sense some confusion between "content" and "presentation and of content" in your message ... and frankly, in the messages from others here.

    A professional photographer need not move to 60 or 80 or eventually 100 meg to separate themselves from their contemporaries. They need unique vision, style, and ideas to do that ... and many can do it with far less than the "big boy toys" we all love to discuss. Whether more is better, depends on that vision is, and what ideas are being expressed especially in terms of presentation ...but I've yet seen a camera that can come up with a good idea ... or even a bad one

    The image making world has changed, and it is far from done doing so. Of the billions of images available for viewing, I'd hazard a guess that a vast incalculable majority are viewed on a computer, iPad/iPhone, or TV screen. This fact of modern life renders high-end photography as a much more personal experience, or a tremendously limited one. All we can do on the internet is provide a simulation presentation, and try to tout how good it actually is.

    So, the question is what exactly IS the end of tolerances? And for whom is it really relevant? How much more is necessary? Makers would have us believe a lot more is needed, as would others who feel it would impact their work ... if for no other reason than it keeps them interested.

    At this point in the evolution, I've gone from evangelist to skeptic. While I can imagine all sorts of innovations and new technologies, I wonder about their true value in advancing the art of photography in any truly meaningful manner.

    Just a few musings on the subject.

    -Marc

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