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Thread: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

  1. #101
    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, they are separate products ... but come from the same company under the same Brand name.

    Here is a post I did on a dedicated Hasselblad forum that answers your stead-fast brand loyalty ... which I admire, and to some degree share, but feel is a bit misplaced and naive.

    "We may make light of this, but it may come back and bite all of us (i.e., Hasselblad users) ... and then we won't be laughing so much.

    I spent my whole advertising career managing Brands. A career that also allowed me to work with some of the best photographers and cinematographers in the world. Creative people who kindled a love of photography to point that I became one.

    I have lived through similar instances of greed and avarice that destroyed a brand reputation that took decades to establish. Hasselblad is on the cusp of doing something similar. The lack of humility in the face of universally withering criticism of what has already been nick-named the "Loony" ... the arrogant response from the top dogs, are chief indicators of a Brand about to be milked for short term profit ... minimal investment, inferior third party products branded with a great marquis, initial brief nods to core products which will morph into total abandonment of the core product development ... spiraling into total destruction. This isn't new, it is bad Brand history repeating itself.

    I'm not sure that even a united voice from their customer base can alter this path. The corporate world is rife with yes men and cowards who tremble under the thumb of financial tyrants.

    Am I over-reacting, am I making to much of it? We'll see ... but mark my words ... I've seen this more than once, and it has never ended well for anyone except the few doing the milking."


    -Marc
    Thanks Marc!

  2. #102
    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Of course, I guess the problem is that when you're paying so much money for a CFV-50 you want to feel confident the company will be around to service it for a reasonable period of time. This lunacy, excuse the pun, only serves to make me think the company is in dire trouble and about to tank.
    This unfortunately is my view as well.
    Instead of investing further in a H system, I'll take a closer look at Alpa or Leica.

    My feeling is that the new management will not give a sh*t about their old customers.

    Leica has a very different approach to this, as does Linhoff, or Alpa.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    . . . . . . .
    My feeling is that the new management will not give a sh*t about their old customers.
    . . . . . . . .
    Sinhue
    Even , if this would be right , should I throw my CFV-39 and CFV-50 backs away now ? ? ?
    These backs give me very good results with my ALPA's and my various V-SYSTEM bodies .
    And I do not see any need to go for PHASE or LEAF backs at this time .
    I will never go for the LUNAR toy , that is for sure , but I will not replace my digital backs . That is for sure as well .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    if i was hasselblad...

    Hasselblad XpanD
    24x72 (with a crop 24x28)
    50 MP
    Design closer to a classic leica or even 500cm
    Zeiss lenses

    Robust and chic... they went the opposite way ;-(
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Here is a post I did on a dedicated Hasselblad forum that answers your stead-fast brand loyalty ... which I admire, and to some degree share, but feel is a bit misplaced and naive.

    "We may make light of this, but it may come back and bite all of us (i.e., Hasselblad users) ... and then we won't be laughing so much.

    I spent my whole advertising career managing Brands. A career that also allowed me to work with some of the best photographers and cinematographers in the world. Creative people who kindled a love of photography to point that I became one.

    I have lived through similar instances of greed and avarice that destroyed a brand reputation that took decades to establish. Hasselblad is on the cusp of doing something similar. The lack of humility in the face of universally withering criticism of what has already been nick-named the "Loony" ... the arrogant response from the top dogs, are chief indicators of a Brand about to be milked for short term profit ... minimal investment, inferior third party products branded with a great marquis, initial brief nods to core products which will morph into total abandonment of the core product development ... spiraling into total destruction. This isn't new, it is bad Brand history repeating itself.

    I'm not sure that even a united voice from their customer base can alter this path. The corporate world is rife with yes men and cowards who tremble under the thumb of financial tyrants.

    Am I over-reacting, am I making to much of it? We'll see ... but mark my words ... I've seen this more than once, and it has never ended well for anyone except the few doing the milking."


    -Marc
    Very well stated Marc. Especially coming from one of their most stalwart supporters. It should cause the top dogs to rethink, but I suspect you're correct that it won't: Going off the vigor of their defensive reaction, they obviously are clueless as to why the Lunacy was met with so much criticism and outright disappointment in the first place.

    It appears that we will be left with one single company, PhaseOne, dedicated to producing MF backs for use on multiple platform bodies. And lack of competition is not going to be good for MF shooters in the long run...
    Jack
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    The strange thing about this is why they picked Sony to partner with and not Fuji. Fuji has been their business partner in the past, and looking at the "X" series, it would seen like the oh so obvious thing to adopt.
    The X-pro1 actually even looks a little like the "X"-Pan.

    I'm just guessing here, but had Hasselblad produced a multi-format X-Pan with Fuji, with excellent optics, I'm pretty sure we'd all be applauding.
    And I don't think anyone would seriously have issue with them doing luxury versions of a unique and heritage oriented digital Hasselblad/Fuji X-Pan.

    They could have made a carbon version with black snake leather grip and who cares, as long as it's a serious camera with a unique idea and true to the brand.

    Just my 2 cents.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    The strange thing about this is why they picked Sony to partner with and not Fuji. Fuji has been their business partner in the past, and looking at the "X" series, it would seen like the oh so obvious thing to adopt.
    The X-pro1 actually even looks a little like the "X"-Pan.

    I'm just guessing here, but had Hasselblad produced a multi-format X-Pan with Fuji, with excellent optics, I'm pretty sure we'd all be applauding.
    And I don't think anyone would seriously have issue with them doing luxury versions of a unique and heritage oriented digital Hasselblad/Fuji X-Pan.

    They could have made a carbon version with black snake leather grip and who cares, as long as it's a serious camera with a unique idea and true to the brand.

    Just my 2 cents.
    For the record, Fuji DID make the film X-Pan for Hasselblad.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    The writing is on the wall......

    Ventizz capital funds purchases Hasselblad and states they want to explore "new markets". Ventizz owned Hasselblad explores the high end luxury toys market by dressing up a consumer grade camera and turning it into a fashion item. Ventizz sells Hasselblad as a high end fashionable brand to the highest bidder and they never make or support another professional camera again.

    That is why if I was a HB user I'd be worried. Sure all the current kit is brilliant but who wants to own kit in a dead end system and Hasselblad's photographic future is just the unknown at the moment.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Gareth

    Are you saying that Ventizz will run a fine old brand right down the drain ?
    Or has the intention to do so ? That would be lunacy indeed .
    I agree , there were cases , investors have done so .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Gareth

    Are you saying that Ventizz will run a fine old brand right down the drain ?
    Or has the intention to do so ? That would be lunacy indeed .
    I agree , there were cases , investors have done so .
    No quite the opposite, IMO Ventizz wants HB to be the Ralph Lauren, Armani, Chanel of the camera world and wants every image obsessed lovie lusting to own their brand. The camera is the least important part of their business plan IMO.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    So we should expect to see HB products adorning the necks of celebrities?
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Have you not seen how young pop stars are styled currently? Seems to fit the image style very nicely.

    Here in the UK recent news stories are that young women no longer aspire to be doctors or scientists and look up to the reality celebrity, footballers wife or pop star for their role models. If I owned HB I would want evey footballer in the land with a camera around their neck.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    The strange thing about this is why they picked Sony to partner with and not Fuji. Fuji has been their business partner in the past, and looking at the "X" series, it would seen like the oh so obvious thing to adopt.
    Before Larry Hansen became CEO and Chairman at Hasselblad, he was CEO for Zeiss Asia Pacific for 16 years, stationed in Japan. Zeiss' biggest customer in Asia was Sony.

    Or maybe Fuji is just sick and tired of the whole relationship...

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Maybe they should do some reading on their own Lunar website:

    "We know that there are never any shortcuts to quality."

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    I found a short youtube clip with Hasselblad DKs area sales manager Jens Anthonsen talking about the Lunacy.

    "..and now we have an camera I think that will be nice to have.. for people who let's say just think they want to have the best and don't care what the price is.." "..but also some of them they also when they buy things like that wanted to take fairly good pictures and they need to have a litte help because they are not skilled photographers it's people who normally takes with iphone or ipad or whatever..."

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jcr View Post
    I found a short youtube clip with Hasselblad DKs area sales manager Jens Anthonsen talking about the Lunacy.

    "..and now we have an camera I think that will be nice to have.. for people who let's say just think they want to have the best and don't care what the price is.." "..but also some of them they also when they buy things like that wanted to take fairly good pictures and they need to have a litte help because they are not skilled photographers it's people who normally takes with iphone or ipad or whatever..."
    How's that even a sales pitch, it really sounds like they are beyond help!
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Sinhue
    Even , if this would be right , should I throw my CFV-39 and CFV-50 backs away now ? ? ?
    These backs give me very good results with my ALPA's and my various V-SYSTEM bodies .
    And I do not see any need to go for PHASE or LEAF backs at this time .
    I will never go for the LUNAR toy , that is for sure , but I will not replace my digital backs . That is for sure as well .
    Jürgen - no I wouldn't dump my gear - but I'm definitely not buying any further H equipment, as the writing is on the wall as far as I'm concerned.
    see PM

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    I bet Phase are really kicking themselves for such a wasted opportunity. Photokina glory was just handed to them on a plate.

    Had they released a credible upgrade to the DF I'm sure many HB shooters would be considering a switch in the light of the Looney announcement.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Maybe Ventizz should sell the Hasselblad brand to LVMH, they are in a much better position to launch the brand name Hasselblad as a fashion item.

    Hopefully after that they will sell the camera technology for the H system to P1.....

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Come to think of it, maybe this has been Phase's plan all along. They probably saw what was coming and felt it would be cheaper to buy the rights to the H camera than to develop their own camera.

    Greg

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I bet Phase are really kicking themselves for such a wasted opportunity. Photokina glory was just handed to them on a plate.

    Had they released a credible upgrade to the DF I'm sure many HB shooters would be considering a switch in the light of the Looney announcement.
    There not kicking themselves at all just sticking to there plan. Things take time to make and they simply upgraded the DF on known issues and make it more reliable. What many don't realize is this DF+ is maybe more improvements than a underwhelming press release. They just downplayed this as its not there main thrust. They are going to be around a long time and maybe the last dog standing. They had huge success on the IQ last year, we can't assume that every year they have to top the year before. The body is really not the most important part of the image chain. You make the most important parts great one year than work on the rest. That's what they are doing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    I want to believe what Hasselblad says in their defensive news release, but this is simply not a young person's camera as they claim. I hope they take this reaction from their base when they embark on their next release. The synergism between Hasselblad and Sony has potential, but I want to see both companies elevated and not one company pulled down.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Finally, something else to talk about in MFD photography rather than the D800! Medium-format isn't what it used to be...
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Another example of "Just because you can doesn't mean you should!"

    I expect there is more of this kind of garbage in the works.
    Ed Cooley Fine Art Photography
     
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Some infos about the Hasselblad news.

    It is said that Shriro has gotten back investments on Hasselblad stock, at least partly. If one thinks about it there may be some business transactions be shortly before happening or they have even happened.

    After speaking on the "DIGIT!" booth of where we were shooting a series of protraits of PK visitors nearly all photographers of all ages I asked maybe about 20 of them most under 30 if they would be willing to be seen with such a Lunar body hanging around their neck. Every single one shrugged and some made comments like I´d preferre to throw it in the Rhine, or "not even for money".
    Obviously I got a special kind of "Young new users/buyers", but there were none, not a single one who would even go out into the street with it even when it´s dark......... !
    I will spare the even more sarcastic comments as I might get in trouble with the moderators here if I rewrite what was said....

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'm sure many HB shooters would be considering a switch in the light of the Looney announcement.
    Why? what on earth has the Lunar got to do with Hasselblad's medium format line which has now been further upgraded to the H5D (not a huge upgrade but its keeping pace or ahead of Phase)? The Lunar makes aboslutely no difference to the medium format camera line - except possibly as a source of additional income for its further development

    A lot of absolute tosh has been written about the Lunar. It's not the camera of my dreams but its an untested product at this moment in time. Lets wait and see what it's like when it is completed.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post

    A lot of absolute tosh has been written about the Lunar. It's not the camera of my dreams but its an untested product at this moment in time. Lets wait and see what it's like when it is completed.
    HI Q
    I think it is thoroughly tested - you can read the NEX7 review at dPreview (and a splendid camera it is too). Unless of course the 6 Hassleblad technicians mentioned rewrite the firmware and spoil it!

    But every 'special edition' camera is met with this kind of vitriol, but you have to admit that this one does looks pretty vulgar, and the big fat body rather destroys the point of the NEX7 as well. But like all the Leica special editions, I can imagine these selling pretty well (although possibly not to the members of GetDPI . . . . . and the price suggests a hefty profit margin.

    On the other hand, I can imagine a pretty good prospect of a collaboration with Sony, who produce fantastic sensors, and seem to be particularly imaginative right now (RX100 RX1, A99, NEX6 all look like fantastic and innovative cameras). Maybe the next collaboration will be more about function than form.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Good for you Quentin. For years I have been a stalwart supporter of Hasselblad even naively expecting a positive release on September 18th. (And after waiting nine long months for my H4D60.) However, what we got was far worse than anything I could have imagined. First, we find it was APSC, not even full frame, then we hear it was priced at five times the cost the NEX7 whose parts are planned for the new camera. How many pieces and parts can be added on to justify five times the price. The responses to the camera have been the worst I have ever seen for any camera release. Most Hassy users are canceling plans to upgrade/purchase/expand. My reason is that the future of Hasselblad is of great concern given the circumstances above. Most people expect and require the support of the company who supplied the equipment in the first place. That assurance today is far less likely than it was prior tho September 18th. I wish I could be as positive about a company that you are of Hasselblad, but my eyes were opened on the 18th, and what I saw was not a pretty sight.

    Hang in there Quentin. If only you could be right, and even now, oh that you could be.

    Greg

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Why? what on earth has the Lunar got to do with Hasselblad's medium format line which has now been further upgraded to the H5D (not a huge upgrade but its keeping pace or ahead of Phase)? The Lunar makes absolutely no difference to the medium format camera line - except possibly as a source of additional income for its further development
    What........ Hasselblad released an H5D?

    My point being the whole Looney release has rather over shadowed anything else I know of released at PK this year. If Phase's new camera had been ready then, regardless of how great the H5D is, all the talk would have been about how looney HB are and how great Phase's new camera is.

    Phase weren't ready and missed a great Sales/PR opportunity that all.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    I'm not sure that Hasselblad will have a medium format line in the future. Listen to this interview with Luca Alessandrini.

    CameraDiner LIVE Show 4, Hasselblad Lunar, Sekonic, Litemaster, Zeiss, Sandisk, Three Legged Thing - YouTube (starts at 2:55)

    He think it was wrong to focus on the pro market "..during the past 10 years we somehow went away from our typical brand tradition of Hasselblad." and want to focus more on using expensive materials to create wearable fashion items.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Wow, that was quite interesting to watch!

    A few things that strike me:
    1. Mr. Alessandrini seems much more personable on video than his statements sound in print.
    2. Some of what he says resonates with me -- for example about going back and focusing on core values, making the camera accessible to the rest of the market (other than only pros...let's face it, 15,000+ for a single body and lens is quite a barrier!) and getting back to the basic design and quality principles of the older film cameras.
    3. Despite the previous, I am still at a complete loss at how they arrived at the Lunar based on those statements. They seem to self-contradictory: you don't increase accessibility by taking a consumer product, dressing it up in tinsel and jacking up the price 5 times (albeit, still much less than the cost of the MFDB, but crucially, a much worse VALUE). And the design language of Victor Hasselblad was far, far more utilitarian and practical (I mean it in a good way) than these gaudy little monsters.

    4. Did he really spend 10 minutes talking about the camera and not spend a single instant talking about how it worked as a camera? Was it really all about luxury clothing, how you can get matching accessories and so on?

    It's all just so disheartening....seeing a brand that was started by someone who was focused on quality, not fashion-- he let the lenses and engineering requirements dictate the camera, even to the shape of the negative. Now it is the absolute opposite -- they find a camera and sensor that are good enough and spend all their time thinking about the thing to enclose it. Talk about missing the point! Form follows function, for ****'s sake, or at least it does in well-designed and made objects. And the only things that stay in fashion are those that are extremely well designed for their function, whether that is simple or complex. An umbrella, a Leica M, a Porsche 911. One may modify, modernize, improve the materials, but don't change for the sake of fashion, change for the sake of improving the function. These products have lasted so long and staying in fashion because they were very well designed to do what they do, not because they were designed to be in fashion. To take someone else's camera and pop a fancy casing around it....it's just so off the mark!
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jcr View Post
    ....
    He think it was wrong to focus on the pro market ".....
    Well, you can't blame him. Look at Apple. They were about the pros. Now, they are making a killing with the consumers. They couldn't care any less about the pros not being happy.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Well, you can't blame him. Look at Apple. They were about the pros. Now, they are making a killing with the consumers. They couldn't care any less about the pros not being happy.
    Yeah, but I don't see Samsung taking the iPhone 5 and labeling it SAMSUNG and charging 'x' thousands dollars for it

    Oh and if they did, I think the consumers would have murderous intent
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But like all the Leica special editions, I can imagine these selling pretty well (although possibly not to the members of GetDPI . . . . . and the price suggests a hefty profit margin.
    Leica special editions are just that; Special Editions, and they are made in limited quantities making them sought after by collectors. They are also Leica cameras, which is a value in itself.

    The Lunar comes in what seems to an unlimited number of "looks", and there's nothing "limited" about it by any definition of the word. Also, it's not a Hasselblad camera, it's a Sony camera with a Hasselblad housing.

    If it was $2,000 or thereabouts, I believe Hasselblad would probably sell a healthy number of these. There are enough ignorant people with bad taste and a well filled wallet who would fall for the vulgar styling. But at $6,000+, it makes no sense. That is well inside Leica territory, and photographers and non-photographers alike will most probably prefer the famous red dot and the form-follows-function design of a well proven product.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    - massive fail by hasselblad
    - what did we think (and still say) when Leica release a new Panasonic with a different menu
    - at least Leica brought good glass and pana brought good electronics and there was no b/s, I still don't get why people buy the Leica one.
    - did Leica announce a new p&s at photokina? Not sure but it certainly doesn't affect my opinion of Leica anymore. I recall I thought they were going to the toilet when they first did it.

    Theres some sense to the madness but I think the jury is out on hasselblad, are they a camera co or a brand being raped by an investment co?

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    I also watched this interview and it was interesting:

    1.to see the Guy Alessandrini in Person. Some things come to my mind:
    He remembered me a lot to some of the Art Directors I had the (non)pleasure to work with in my former career as a studio Photographer.
    Blowing out an enormous bubble of words with nearly no meanings on a simple question - shall we move the item to the right or to the left......
    I´m sure you also know these.....

    2.Core essentials of Hasselblad: There never was a wooden grip or a toppling of deco stuff on any "Production" Hasselblad. They produced only some Anniversary bodies for collectors. Definitely not the core of the brand

    3.The Cameras they built for "the other" users - ever - were the same as the ones they built for the pro Users. infact the"other" users bought them because also the Pro´s were using them thus proofing these were good cameras.

    There is even more but this is the "Core" of why this bubble is causing so much misunderstandings - on the side of Hasselblad !
    Total loss of orientation about what and who they are and what they could be - a change is necessary- I full agree - but not like this.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Q
    I think it is thoroughly tested - you can read the NEX7 review at dPreview (and a splendid camera it is too). Unless of course the 6 Hassleblad technicians mentioned rewrite the firmware and spoil it!

    But every 'special edition' camera is met with this kind of vitriol, but you have to admit that this one does looks pretty vulgar, and the big fat body rather destroys the point of the NEX7 as well. But like all the Leica special editions, I can imagine these selling pretty well (although possibly not to the members of GetDPI . . . . . and the price suggests a hefty profit margin.

    On the other hand, I can imagine a pretty good prospect of a collaboration with Sony, who produce fantastic sensors, and seem to be particularly imaginative right now (RX100 RX1, A99, NEX6 all look like fantastic and innovative cameras). Maybe the next collaboration will be more about function than form.
    Hi Jono

    Sorry, it is an untested product. I own a NEX-7 - good camera (although I have used it far less since I got the Sigma DP2M - now *that* is a good camera!), but the Lunar may or may not be significantly better / different / worse. We simply don't know. I don't much like the look of the Lunar at all, but given Hassleblad seem genuinely enthusiastic about it and they are reasonably sensible people, I am prepared to wait for a verdict after it has become available. More importantly, the main prodict line in medium format cameras is still going strong.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    CameraDiner LIVE Show 4, Hasselblad Lunar, Sekonic, Litemaster, Zeiss, Sandisk, Three Legged Thing - YouTube

    This video is VERY revealing. Paul Grange of Camera Diner who supports this Hasselblad project, presents such flawed logic in defense of it, that it boggles the mind. He blames the "media" for the backlash, trots out a few cheery-picked supportive comments by consumers to back up his own poor judgement, sucks up to Hasselblad, and never asks the hard questions that most anyone would have ... like the freaking price for one thing.

    He's clearly going for hits on his site and isn't above prostituting himself to do it. Hope he goes down with the good ship Hasselblad.

    The statement by Luca that he is "not very good at taking pictures, so instead likes to collect old cameras" is also revealing. So, by his own admission, he is nothing more than a collector, a fondler, a poser at heart. A collector who places form over function because he doesn't get what "function" actually means for any passionate photographer, novice, advanced enthusiasts, or pro.

    A Hasselblad camera for everyman @ such a price-point is a non-sequitur. It is to exploit the tasteless newly rich that, like Luca, are amateur photographers in the worse sense of the word. Not the enthusiasts that made up Hasselblad's core non-professional buyer of past.

    Here's somethings to consider about this whole project that to date haven't been addressed.

    The NEX 7 is already aging by digital standards, it'll have a white beard by the time this camera gets out the door. Sony is already discounting the 5N, so it is likely that the 7 will follow. These guys don't get that those who buy this sort of stuff, are very conscience of the tech status aspect of gadgets ... who the hell would want a $2,000 iPhone 4 in a gold case now?

    If the A99 is the base of their next project, how much will that cost? The NEX7 formula suggests at least 3X the price, so $8,500? Even 2X is almost $6,000. Really?

    Who is going to service this toad? Sony? Hasselblad? Sony's service is less than stellar (trust me, I use Sony stuff), and anything involving any digital repair on a Hasselbld requires shipping it back to Sweden for an extended vacation from your gear bag. But hell, maybe the people who buy this camera won't even care if it works or not.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The Lunar comes in what seems to an unlimited number of "looks", and there's nothing "limited" about it by any definition of the word. (..).
    Well, it seems rather esthetically and intellectually limited to me.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    CameraDiner LIVE Show 4, Hasselblad Lunar, Sekonic, Litemaster, Zeiss, Sandisk, Three Legged Thing - YouTube

    This video is VERY revealing. Paul Grange of Camera Diner who supports this Hasselblad project, presents such flawed logic in defense of it, that it boggles the mind. He blames the "media" for the backlash, trots out a few cheery-picked supportive comments by consumers to back up his own poor judgement, sucks up to Hasselblad, and never asks the hard questions that most anyone would have ... like the freaking price for one thing.

    He's clearly going for hits on his site and isn't above prostituting himself to do it. Hope he goes down with the good ship Hasselblad.

    The statement by Luca that he is "not very good at taking pictures, so instead likes to collect old cameras" is also revealing. So, by his own admission, he is nothing more than a collector, a fondler, a poser at heart. A collector who places form over function because he doesn't get what "function" actually means for any passionate photographer, novice, advanced enthusiasts, or pro.

    A Hasselblad camera for everyman @ such a price-point is a non-sequitur. It is to exploit the tasteless newly rich that, like Luca, are amateur photographers in the worse sense of the word. Not the enthusiasts that made up Hasselblad's core non-professional buyer of past.

    Here's somethings to consider about this whole project that to date haven't been addressed.

    The NEX 7 is already aging by digital standards, it'll have a white beard by the time this camera gets out the door. Sony is already discounting the 5N, so it is likely that the 7 will follow. These guys don't get that those who buy this sort of stuff, are very conscience of the tech status aspect of gadgets ... who the hell would want a $2,000 iPhone 4 in a gold case now?

    If the A99 is the base of their next project, how much will that cost? The NEX7 formula suggests at least 3X the price, so $8,500? Even 2X is almost $6,000. Really?

    Who is going to service this toad? Sony? Hasselblad? Sony's service is less than stellar (trust me, I use Sony stuff), and anything involving any digital repair on a Hasselbld requires shipping it back to Sweden for an extended vacation from your gear bag. But hell, maybe the people who buy this camera won't even care if it works or not.

    -Marc

    (If you haven't guessed, I'm PISSED OFF!)
    I like your version of the name "Grenge", a former Sony manager now an aspiring stand up comedian. He is easily impressed with everything he sees.

    The tripod he is fascinated with, for example, many versions of them have been available from the far east for much better prices for sometime now.

  42. #142
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Hi Jono

    Sorry, it is an untested product. I own a NEX-7 - good camera (although I have used it far less since I got the Sigma DP2M - now *that* is a good camera!), but the Lunar may or may not be significantly better / different / worse. We simply don't know.
    There are lots of things we don't KNOW (like whether it's going to rain this October) - but that doesn't mean we can't make a pretty fair guess based on the evidence in front of us. If Hassleblad were toting the improvements they were going to make, then one might be less prone to jump to conclusions.

    . . . if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck . . . . . (or possibly, in this case, a lemon!)

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    .. and they are reasonably sensible people, ..
    Someone has to stand up for the poor SXXs.

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Finally, something else to talk about in MFD photography rather than the D800! Medium-format isn't what it used to be...
    Your right...Now we can talk about the Nikon D600, which just edged out the Phase One IQ180 in the sensor rating at DXO.

    and it's the consumer model...

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Marc,
    your calculations are wrong. The NEX-7 to Lunar price conversion is

    5.43 x NEX-7 price = Lunar price

    I have already made my feelings known on the matter and the matter of Paul Genge is simply answered by looking at the man's pedigree. He's been drinking the Sony Kool-Aid for years and is probably under orders to promote this. I would not be surprised to discover that his "departure" from Sony is actually a way to make him look like a former well-connected insider offering sage advice to sway the public.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    There are lots of things we don't KNOW (like whether it's going to rain this October) - but that doesn't mean we can't make a pretty fair guess based on the evidence in front of us. If Hassleblad were toting the improvements they were going to make, then one might be less prone to jump to conclusions.

    . . . if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck . . . . . (or possibly, in this case, a lemon!)
    Is the glass half full or half empty? Clearly reasonable and sane people offering the same judgement expressed very differently, or just reasonably sane people... Okay, I'm just having some fun at your expense! Sorry and Thank you!

    I'll express it the way I feel it, and that is I don't support the Lunar project and I don't want the Lunar project to succeed, not something I often feel or support the idea of, unless the core idea is beyond sense.

    1) If the NEX camera they have inside is in fact really good, then I will just buy the Nex, because by extension the design of the body is grotesque, period.
    2) If Hasselblad tweaked the camera to be better than the NEX equivalent, please see 1).
    3) sorry, the company which was trying to sell me my dream as a fashion photographer is no more. Why does selling small ILC have anything to do with the rest of their business? I don't want to support a company who thinks of their camera as jewelry you hang around your neck, belonging to certain privilege class of society with little idea about photography or why that object hangs there! (Paraphrasing from earlier statements) Sorry this far worse than an Olympics sports photog caught with his lens cap on! Conclusion, the idea has NOTHING to do with photography! I will not support this.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Hasselblad should have done this, although the images might show too much grain...

    From DPreview and Photokina:

    http://3.static.img-dpreview.com/fil...581.JPG?v=1585

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Just how viable is medium format anyway with Canon rumoured to be about to launch a 46mp dslr. The problem Hasselblad and Phase One both have is their market is small, and probably shrinking. Leica and Hasselblad have both pimped out their brands to some extent attract more of the luxury good market.

    And its a sensible move. There is a bigger and more resilient market for high end "designer" products than there is for professional medium format. I bet the Lunar will sell well in emerging markets and I think we should all hope it does - some of the profits can then be used to keep the pro end afloat.
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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I bet the Lunar will sell well in emerging markets and I think we should all hope it does -
    I sincerely hope the Lunar and the Lunar RX100, Lunar A99, etc never make it to the market to save cash for everyone.

    It is going to be resounding failure in the "emerging markets".

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    Re: Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I sincerely hope the Lunar and the Lunar RX100, Lunar A99, etc never make it to the market to save cash for everyone.

    It is going to be resounding failure in the "emerging markets".
    I hate false markets and its usually a disaster for all! No one gains from this.
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