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Hasselblad Lunar : they go defensive
- Thread starter proenca
- Start date
Re: Hasselblad Lunar: they go defensive
Ill conceived. Every ugly design cue possible employed. Technically obsolete before it is even available. Arrogantly positioned and defended.
Everything that Victor Hasselblad was not.
However, the Luxury positioning is the most delusional aspect of the whole debacle because it targets the wealthy and incredibly stupid ... a combination I personally have not run across very often. The rich may be many things, but stupid is rarely one of them.
What Hasselblad is missing is just how the wealthy buy things ... the rich may not know what they are doing regarding photography, but they ask those that do ... which is often people like those who come here ... a number of whom are also pretty well off financially, and travel in those circles themselves. I once advised Edsel Ford-II on what camera to buy for family photos and travel. He could have bought anything, including the whole camera store if he wished ... but all he wanted was a competent camera just like every other regular person.
Why should Sony bear any responsibility? Some company comes along and says it'll buy certain numbers of a camera that is approaching the end of its life cycle. A camera that probably has already paid off its R&D investment, so such a sale will be more profitable and help fund the R&D of better Sony cameras ... what's not to love? I can imagine the Sony folks snickering at Hasselblad behind their backs.
That Hasselblad is going to gussy up and pimp out a Sony A99 is going to be even more interesting because I cannot imagine who the hell will buy such a thing. That "thing" will also be obsolete before Hasselblad will have wrapped it in supple ugliness and decadent meaninglessness.
From venerated and universally respected, to a laughing stock in one announcement day. Goes to show you that you are only one camera away from rack and ruin.
- Marc
Ill conceived. Every ugly design cue possible employed. Technically obsolete before it is even available. Arrogantly positioned and defended.
Everything that Victor Hasselblad was not.
However, the Luxury positioning is the most delusional aspect of the whole debacle because it targets the wealthy and incredibly stupid ... a combination I personally have not run across very often. The rich may be many things, but stupid is rarely one of them.
What Hasselblad is missing is just how the wealthy buy things ... the rich may not know what they are doing regarding photography, but they ask those that do ... which is often people like those who come here ... a number of whom are also pretty well off financially, and travel in those circles themselves. I once advised Edsel Ford-II on what camera to buy for family photos and travel. He could have bought anything, including the whole camera store if he wished ... but all he wanted was a competent camera just like every other regular person.
Why should Sony bear any responsibility? Some company comes along and says it'll buy certain numbers of a camera that is approaching the end of its life cycle. A camera that probably has already paid off its R&D investment, so such a sale will be more profitable and help fund the R&D of better Sony cameras ... what's not to love? I can imagine the Sony folks snickering at Hasselblad behind their backs.
That Hasselblad is going to gussy up and pimp out a Sony A99 is going to be even more interesting because I cannot imagine who the hell will buy such a thing. That "thing" will also be obsolete before Hasselblad will have wrapped it in supple ugliness and decadent meaninglessness.
From venerated and universally respected, to a laughing stock in one announcement day. Goes to show you that you are only one camera away from rack and ruin.
- Marc
V
Vivek
Guest
Why should sony.. well, the lens mount is still SOny E and the flash mount is still the old (now abandoned) Sony flash mount.
V
Vivek
Guest
Re: Hasselblad Lunar: they go defensive
You have not seen the sketches of the leaked Hasselblad A77, yet I think. It is not exactly a DSLR but rather Sony's SLT.
Stefan Steib
Active member
I am still riddling about the strategy behind this.
Analyzing the shere facts. Hasselblad does not have an adequate retail channel for these cameras. Their local dealers are connected with Photographers not rich amateurs, not even close to totally ignorant "shoppers" who may buy this with enough swarowsky attached on it.....
Now they need another sales channel. That could be Gucci, Armani, D&G and the like who place this in the stores. Of course these will just sell them if the color of the camera matches the gown of the lady who buys a new dress (as a collateral buy). For Men you could try to place it at Lobbs in London or Highend tailors when they are waiting for their suits to be measured.
Maybe also some duty free stores on Dubai/UAE and China /Russsia.
That´s about it ! Realisticaly how many can they sell like this ?
Maybe some hundred ? Sony wouldn´t even blink for that amount of bodies sold (normally a Distributor handles volumes like this), same applies for the "future" other products.
So- what is this good for ? Even if they sell 1000 cameras a year and the margin is high (let´s say 50% on their side which it is probably not), the turnaround/earnings from this are 2,5 mil € EBIT.
If this shall save Hasselblad and the shrinking MF Market they really need to sell about 20x probably even 30-40x more cameras to get their actual volume from this. 40000 Lunars worldwide a year ?
:ROTFL:
NEVER !
Regards
Stefan
Analyzing the shere facts. Hasselblad does not have an adequate retail channel for these cameras. Their local dealers are connected with Photographers not rich amateurs, not even close to totally ignorant "shoppers" who may buy this with enough swarowsky attached on it.....
Now they need another sales channel. That could be Gucci, Armani, D&G and the like who place this in the stores. Of course these will just sell them if the color of the camera matches the gown of the lady who buys a new dress (as a collateral buy). For Men you could try to place it at Lobbs in London or Highend tailors when they are waiting for their suits to be measured.
Maybe also some duty free stores on Dubai/UAE and China /Russsia.
That´s about it ! Realisticaly how many can they sell like this ?
Maybe some hundred ? Sony wouldn´t even blink for that amount of bodies sold (normally a Distributor handles volumes like this), same applies for the "future" other products.
So- what is this good for ? Even if they sell 1000 cameras a year and the margin is high (let´s say 50% on their side which it is probably not), the turnaround/earnings from this are 2,5 mil € EBIT.
If this shall save Hasselblad and the shrinking MF Market they really need to sell about 20x probably even 30-40x more cameras to get their actual volume from this. 40000 Lunars worldwide a year ?
:ROTFL:
NEVER !
Regards
Stefan
Re: Hasselblad Lunar: they go defensive
I have the A99 camera, which can be had for under $3K ... who would opt for a $7,000 version I wonder?
- Marc
I believe it is the 24 meg FF A99 SLT they are going to pimp out. I guess that is still a DSLR as in Digital Single Lens Reflex no matter what is going on inside the camera ... maybe "reflex" is incorrect since the mirror never "reflexes" ... however, the Pellix mirror Canons were still referred to as SLRs. :ROTFL:
I have the A99 camera, which can be had for under $3K ... who would opt for a $7,000 version I wonder?
- Marc
Why is that a Sony issue to take blame for? The older flash mount was inherited from Minolta, and they should have changed it long ago (even though it is super easy to use). It is Hasselblad that decided on using the Sony Nex-7 so it all their fault IMO.
You'd think for the money being asked they'd slap a Zeiss E mount lens on it as standard issue ... or a pair of Zeiss Touit optics, instead of the mediocre kit lens.
Oh well, no issue for me ... I'm out of the Hassey system and no longer a customer.
- Marc
Steen
Senior Subscriber Member
Hasselblad Lunar: they go defensive
If Hasselblad has promised to buy a certain number we may at some point see some rebates .-)
jonoslack
Active member
Re: Hasselblad Lunar: they go defensive
However - tastes do differ. I find it hard to think that this thing would be to anybody's taste, but it probably is, in which case it'll probably sell (let's face it, it's amazing what does sell!).
I read somewhere that this was a precursor to the 'real' deal with Sony, which is probably a rebadged A99 or similar. That might be a good seller, especially in places like China where everybody seems to be carrying around a meaty dSLR.
I think that Jorgen is right, in that the real turn-off for most of us who didn't already use Hasselblad is the closed system, confusing compatibility and poor secondhand values.
To my mind the proof of the success or failure of this lunar monstrosity will not hinge on how we feel about it . . . . but on whether or not it makes money for Hasselblad, and unlike most I'm not so certain that it won't.
Well, I quite agree (nobody got all that bread by being thick in the head).
However - tastes do differ. I find it hard to think that this thing would be to anybody's taste, but it probably is, in which case it'll probably sell (let's face it, it's amazing what does sell!).
I read somewhere that this was a precursor to the 'real' deal with Sony, which is probably a rebadged A99 or similar. That might be a good seller, especially in places like China where everybody seems to be carrying around a meaty dSLR.
I think that Jorgen is right, in that the real turn-off for most of us who didn't already use Hasselblad is the closed system, confusing compatibility and poor secondhand values.
To my mind the proof of the success or failure of this lunar monstrosity will not hinge on how we feel about it . . . . but on whether or not it makes money for Hasselblad, and unlike most I'm not so certain that it won't.
V
Vivek
Guest
China has the right people to do justice! :ROTFL:
Lambourghini
Car Repair Didn't Go So Well? Smash Your Luxury Ride to Smithereens - Amanda Erickson - The Atlantic Cities
Maserati
Maserati Quattroporte publicly destroyed by owner in protest over dealer's poor service | News.com.au
Lambourghini
Car Repair Didn't Go So Well? Smash Your Luxury Ride to Smithereens - Amanda Erickson - The Atlantic Cities
Maserati
Maserati Quattroporte publicly destroyed by owner in protest over dealer's poor service | News.com.au
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
Heck they had to hire people to do that? I'd have done it for free, wanton and possibly pointless but wow that would have been fun. 
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
I had a look at some recent Hasselblad auctions at The Great Big Auction Site. Here are a few examples:
H4D-60, Demo with lens: $15,100
List price without lens: $30,995
H4D-60, New without lens: $12,000
List price without lens: $30,995
H4D-40, Demo with lens: $8,988
List price with lens: $18,995
H4D-40, New without lens: $7,411
List price without lens: $16,995
H4D-31 Ferrari with lens: $8,180 (a real collector's item :ROTFL: )
List price with lens: $27,900
Although I doubt that they sell many cameras at full price, with that kind of second hand value, Hasselblad obviously has a major problem. Used cameras are mostly sold to amateurs/enthusiasts, and with the Pentax costing $7,000, a used Hassy isn't worth much more. With the H-series being a closed system, the non-interchangeable back of the 645D isn't much of a handicap either. Then there's the D800. With 50% or more in lost value for almost new cameras, it's a question how long they will be able to keep their customers, not to speak about finding new ones.
Seen from that angle, their company logo might be the only leg they have to stand on. That makes the Lunar understandable, but not edible. If you ask me, the closed system was the big mistake. Flexibility is the name of the game these days, and Leica seems to understand that.
Edit: Interestingly, CFV backs hold their prices quite well, which kind of proves my point about closed systems: CFV-backs can be used on a number of cameras, so they are more sought after.
H4D-60, Demo with lens: $15,100
List price without lens: $30,995
H4D-60, New without lens: $12,000
List price without lens: $30,995
H4D-40, Demo with lens: $8,988
List price with lens: $18,995
H4D-40, New without lens: $7,411
List price without lens: $16,995
H4D-31 Ferrari with lens: $8,180 (a real collector's item :ROTFL: )
List price with lens: $27,900
Although I doubt that they sell many cameras at full price, with that kind of second hand value, Hasselblad obviously has a major problem. Used cameras are mostly sold to amateurs/enthusiasts, and with the Pentax costing $7,000, a used Hassy isn't worth much more. With the H-series being a closed system, the non-interchangeable back of the 645D isn't much of a handicap either. Then there's the D800. With 50% or more in lost value for almost new cameras, it's a question how long they will be able to keep their customers, not to speak about finding new ones.
Seen from that angle, their company logo might be the only leg they have to stand on. That makes the Lunar understandable, but not edible. If you ask me, the closed system was the big mistake. Flexibility is the name of the game these days, and Leica seems to understand that.
Edit: Interestingly, CFV backs hold their prices quite well, which kind of proves my point about closed systems: CFV-backs can be used on a number of cameras, so they are more sought after.
Stefan Steib
Active member
Jorgen
It would be really interesting to know how much a used H4x will sell for.
If your theory is right (and I think it is) the price should be significantly higher than a normal H4.
And if this is the case it would take only a small decision by Hasselblad to significantly change the value of their stock - just do a H5x.
Interesting !
Stefan
It would be really interesting to know how much a used H4x will sell for.
If your theory is right (and I think it is) the price should be significantly higher than a normal H4.
And if this is the case it would take only a small decision by Hasselblad to significantly change the value of their stock - just do a H5x.
Interesting !
Stefan
Stefan Steib
Active member
Actually this video was not Hasselblad official, it was from a Hasselblad dealer Fotocare.com
But I wonder how an official dealer can tell such stuff.
As you said, if I were Hasselblad I´d be really pissed about that.
BTW isn´t it interesting that in the whole internet there is nothing to be found about this launch event in New York ? No journalists there ?
Google a bit and you´ll find this:
https://www.facebook.com/VinePR
the facebok page of the US PR company who did the event in NYC.
and then this............ ????
https://vimeo.com/67364907#
It gets better and better.........
OMG
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
On the Lunar website, there are 3 lenses shown: 16mm, 18-55mm and 18-200. Isn't it a bit strange that Sony's best lenses aren't there? And no Zeiss? Maybe Zeiss didn't want their name associated with this (remember that Larry Hansen was with Zeiss for 26 years, the last 16 as their CEO in Asia).
Or maybe they think that those who have burned all their monies on a Lunar can't afford a proper lens? Or maybe they realise that those who are stupid enough to buy a Lunar won't see the difference between a Zeiss lens and a Coke bottle anyway :loco:
Oh... and there's an official FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/hasselbladlunar.official
It's so full of crap that Victor Hasselblad must rotate in his grave.
And a "wonderful" article on Bornrich | Home of Luxury and Most Expensive things, "Home of Luxury":
Hasselblad Lunar series is ultimate luxurious camera set with personalization options | Bornrich
I think I start to understand why Zeiss isn't in on this...
Or maybe they think that those who have burned all their monies on a Lunar can't afford a proper lens? Or maybe they realise that those who are stupid enough to buy a Lunar won't see the difference between a Zeiss lens and a Coke bottle anyway :loco:
Oh... and there's an official FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/hasselbladlunar.official
It's so full of crap that Victor Hasselblad must rotate in his grave.
And a "wonderful" article on Bornrich | Home of Luxury and Most Expensive things, "Home of Luxury":
Hasselblad Lunar series is ultimate luxurious camera set with personalization options | Bornrich
I think I start to understand why Zeiss isn't in on this...
simonclivehughes
Active member
I've also heard "... and two to take him!" appended to that statement.At last, P. T. Barnum is proven right.
- Leigh
(For those unfamiliar: P. T. Barnum is credited with saying "There's a sucker born every minute.")
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
I've never seen a used H4X for sale. There probably aren't that many around, and with the price of a new one (4-5,000 Euro plus the value of your old H1/2) it won't be an easy sell, even if it's the Hasselblad that makes the most sense right now (except specialty cameras like the 200ms).
Here's another thing that puzzles me endlessly:
- The H4D-40 Stainless Steel was launched almost 3 years ago.
- It doesn't cost more than a standard H4D-40, at least not now
- To me, it looks rather cool as opposed to the drab gray original
- They made only 100 copies, or at least that's what they claim
- Still, they haven't managed to sell all of them
With that in mind, and the documented low second hand value of the Ferrari edition, spending millions on useless crap like the Lunar is the absolutely last thing I would do before flushing the whole company down the toilet at the bankruptcy court. But with the smell of this, that might be the right place for Hasselblad at the moment.