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Thread: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    I buy and sell a ton of Leica gear each year and am currently trying to obtain some of the best Leica R lenses . Not easy with the New M being touted as the coming of the "R" solution . Selling is no problem ..I insist on payment thru paypal and I follow all the rules on shipping etc .

    But how about buying ? If the item is listed on ebay you have some protection thru paypal and your credit card company ..but they are looking for you to make a mistake . What if you buy off the forum . How can you pay and have any security ?

    I have missed some great glass because my instincts tell me to avoid payments outside of the USA to private individuals .

    Ideas ?

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Why are people in other countries less honest than in this one?

    I have bought on ebay from Japan and China all though PayPal. I check the seller's history. I have yet to be scammed.

    Who is looking for you to make a mistake?

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Why are people in other countries less honest than in this one?

    I have bought on ebay from Japan and China all though PayPal. I check the seller's history. I have yet to be scammed.

    Who is looking for you to make a mistake?
    Exactly. I was recently on a classic Robot camera jag and was trying to get a good example of a Robot Royal 24 and Star 50. None to be found in the USA, several available in Germany, Turkey, the Czech Republic. One at a time, I bought four, waited for them to arrive, and returned them until I got a decent one. Not a problem in the batch, and met some nice sellers along the way, even the guys who shipped a pretty crappy example listed as "excellent" (they are just not all that knowledgeable about cameras and assume that if it's shiny, it's great).

    (I did get a decent Star 50 in the end, gave up on the Royal 24. Both my Robot II and the Star 50 are now off to repair in Düsseldorf—being overhauled so I can put them to use. :-)

    I've bought and sold cameras and tons of other stuff to people all over the world. Only had one weasel, and I smoked that one out before it cost me anything. He was in Nevada... !

    Godfrey

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Why are people in other countries less honest than in this one?

    I have bought on ebay from Japan and China all though PayPal. I check the seller's history. I have yet to be scammed.

    Who is looking for you to make a mistake?
    Did I say that ? It isn t about the trust worthiness .

    The issue is the ability to enforce the contract between the buyer and seller . With a domestic transaction ...paypal works OK ..but you have to know things like you can t file with both paypal and your credit card at the same time . Paypal finds against buyers and sellers all the time if any part of the process isn t done. Like having proof of delivery . Or a verified account .

    Inside the ebay/paypal systems .I think I can handle the process but how about the sales outside thru a forum . If the person is known ..been a member for a while and a contributor ..with a little history ..then you have an ability to gage risk .

    My situation with R glass is that its becoming so rare and has been cornered to an extent by the HK dealers ..that private sales with pristine and established backgrounds are hard to find . Those lenses are $2000-4000 ..so I don t work on trust ..I want some insurance .

    Now if you have bought internationally from an individual .....and had a problem ...you may know something about the system. Otherwise its just trust .

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Just to be clear ..my post is not intended to be insulting to anyone or type cast any culture as being more or less trustworthy . Unless you are on ebay its difficult to get much history. Generally I like to buy here on the forum , from known individuals and use paypal . But I can t find what I am looking for with the best practice.

    When things work..great . But what if the item is shipped and never received . With ebay/ paypal you file and the seller can t prove receipt so you win . How does that work with private individual ? I ve had stuff lost in transit from asia several times and always recovered because of ebay/paypal . I had to file twice last year . I am sure the seller was honest but what about the postal system .

    Trust is interesting....would you trust sending a $4000 lens to an unknown and waiting for payment ? How is that different than sending $4000 in funds and waiting for the item to arrive .

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Trust is interesting....would you trust sending a $4000 lens to an unknown and waiting for payment ? How is that different than sending $4000 in funds and waiting for the item to arrive .
    That's a good point. I have asked questions like this either here or on another forum and most members did not seem to get it. When exchanging two things of equal value (money and the item), in principle I see that the trust issues are more or less symmetrical.

    I am surprised to see how often people seem to buy or sell items worth several thousands on a forum like this. While I am sure that 99% of the members here are completely respectable and trustworthy, there isn't often really a way to know, is there? I'd feel pretty comfortable buying from a long
    time active member, but not easily from a new member or somebody who isn't active at all.

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    I suppose, if you can't afford to lose the money, then don't take the risk. By far most traders will be honest, many may be ignorant of the items they sell, but have a returns policy, but if you do get caught by a scammer, then you will lose out. If there is concern/worry about the trade, then it may not be worth doing it - none of this gear is really that important, it's just 'toys'.

    In some cases I've known folk in the country, asked them what they know about the company. Maybe you can deal via an escrow company, but that costs a bit more.

    Best wishes,

    Ray
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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    ... Now if you have bought internationally from an individual .....and had a problem ...you may know something about the system. Otherwise its just trust .
    Buy only from sources you trust.

    How do you come to trust people you're buying from over the net? By opening a discussion with them, gauging how they respond, and adopting a standard for what you consider reasonable risk. Start with small and gauge whether the risk is better or worse than you expect.

    All of my camera buying and selling with the Robots was with individuals, not companies. Three of them had a problem in that the item was not up to the quality/condition as advertised. All three offered apologies for the trouble and refunded as soon as they were able. I'd do business with them again any time.

    If you're not willing to accept any risk, deal only with established retail dealers with a good reputation. I've bought nearly all my Leica gear from Dan Tamarkin at America's Premier Leica Specialist Since 1971. He's a good guy and has been superb on service and support. Currently, he's listing eight R lenses on the site.

    G

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Did I say that ? It isn t about the trust worthiness .
    You said this:

    I have missed some great glass because my instincts tell me to avoid payments outside of the USA to private individuals .
    That suggests you did not think they were honest.

    There are no 100% guarantees in life. Most people are honest. Use PayPal and request insurance on the package. This applies to sale inside the US as to overseas.

    Oddly enough, with all the photo gear I have bought, the two places that have screwed me over were HP Marketing and the New Jersey Attorney General's Office. I have even had B&H Photo to lie to me on a couple of occasions.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Buy only from sources you trust.

    How do you come to trust people you're buying from over the net? By opening a discussion with them, gauging how they respond, and adopting a standard for what you consider reasonable risk. Start with small and gauge whether the risk is better or worse than you expect.

    All of my camera buying and selling with the Robots was with individuals, not companies. Three of them had a problem in that the item was not up to the quality/condition as advertised. All three offered apologies for the trouble and refunded as soon as they were able. I'd do business with them again any time.

    If you're not willing to accept any risk, deal only with established retail dealers with a good reputation. I've bought nearly all my Leica gear from Dan Tamarkin at America's Premier Leica Specialist Since 1971. He's a good guy and has been superb on service and support. Currently, he's listing eight R lenses on the site.

    G
    Godfrey

    Why do you feel to make so many snide remarks ? Your responses are just plain insulting . There is a pattern of three of four comments that imply my questions are just plain stupid .

    You don t know me but I once ran a huge financial consulting practice and had global managing partner responsibilities . Your comments imply that I am new to international buying ....couldn t be farther from the truth . The difference with camera stuff is its too small to follow up on when a problem occurs . eBay/Paypal have good solutions and maybe thats the only answer .

    Isn t it obvious that I would first try the very best sources for Leica R gear ? I also buy and sell all the time here ,at Fred Miranda and eBay . I know how to verify a source and I ve never been burned once .

    The issue is I can t find what I want to finish my R kit . None of the sources I ve found can be verified . So I was simply looking for a buying solution that relied on more than trust . In this case getting a solution requires a different approach .

    Not sure how anyone would consider your comments helpful .

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    ...
    You don t know me but I once ran a huge financial consulting practice and had global managing partner responsibilities . Your comments imply that I am new to international buying ....couldn t be farther from the truth . ...
    If that's true, why are you asking these kinds of questions? Your questions implied that you are new to international buying and selling. I am not trying to be snide at all. I'm trying to help what sounds like a newcomer to international business transactions get over their fear of doing business with people in other parts of the world.

    If that's not the case, if what you've just now said is true ... well, go do whatever you want to do. Don't ask questions that you now say you already know the answers to.

    I don't get your attitude at all. You're certainly right that I don't know you. And by the questions you ask, and the attitude you deal to people who try to help, I don't want to.

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I buy and sell a ton of Leica gear each year and am currently trying to obtain some of the best Leica R lenses . Not easy with the New M being touted as the coming of the "R" solution . Selling is no problem ..I insist on payment thru paypal and I follow all the rules on shipping etc .

    But how about buying ? If the item is listed on ebay you have some protection thru paypal and your credit card company ..but they are looking for you to make a mistake . What if you buy off the forum . How can you pay and have any security ?

    I have missed some great glass because my instincts tell me to avoid payments outside of the USA to private individuals .

    Ideas ?
    Roger, I share your "instincts" ... not out of any possible discrimination toward "foreign" individuals as has been implied. It is more about dealing with more elements that are harder to understand, control, or do something about should a problem arise. Dealing with those issues may well seem simple to those at the other end, but I know nothing about them, and wouldn't know where to start. Then it becomes a huge PITA, and life is to short for that.

    I think you can run into a dishonest individual, or one who has a very different idea of quality levels, anywhere in the world including here in the USA. Heck, I had a local guy try to rip me off face-to-face across a table ... had I been less knowledgable regarding Leica optics, he probably could have been successful.

    My solution has been to work with a dealer that deals internationally. They know the ins and outs, the who's who and reliable sources. It requires more patience and a bit more money, but security does have its rewards.

    -Marc
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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    If that's true, why are you asking these kinds of questions? Your questions implied that you are new to international buying and selling. I am not trying to be snide at all. I'm trying to help what sounds like a newcomer to international business transactions get over their fear of doing business with people in other parts of the world.

    If that's not the case, if what you've just now said is true ... well, go do whatever you want to do. Don't ask questions that you now say you already know the answers to.

    I don't get your attitude at all. You're certainly right that I don't know you. And by the questions you ask, and the attitude you deal to people who try to help, I don't want to.
    Godfrey

    This isn t the first time you jumped into one of my threads and frankly I am pretty sick of you undermining a legitimate question . You seem to enjoy lecturing people in a condescending manner .

    Genrally I try to be clear in my posts what I am trying to accomplish ..yet I get replies from you that imply my posts are just plain stupid . You want to argue about whether my request (which is to find a process with recourse) is even legitimate . Then go on further to tell me ....if I can t trust people don t do business with them .

    I would hope that you fully understand how happy I would be if you never attempted to "help" me again.

    My apologies to others but I won t be bullied out of my own thread .

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    My solution has been to work with a dealer that deals internationally. They know the ins and outs, the who's who and reliable sources. It requires more patience and a bit more money, but security does have its rewards.

    -Marc

    I will second that as the best solution for you, Roger. If you need any pointers on that, PM.

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Marc Vivek

    Thanks good point . I am trying to buy a 35 1.4 R lens and because of the lens has been available since the 80s ..some of the used ones require a good CLA ( just did a 28 thru Solms at about 300euros + $150 shipping) . So I look for the Silver boxed versions or ones with high serial numbers ...

    I also always try to buy at FMV ....I know cheap $%%$$ .

    With the DMR I rebuilt a huge collection of R lenses (over 20 ) all at great prices but I was forced to sell some of the best when I went to the S . So I ve done this before and I have all but one lens . Then after 90 days of searching I find the lens .yikes I can t set up a way to buy it with any recourse (of course this is escrow but beyond paypal I haven t found any that seem to really work ) .

    You guys are right ..better to just suck it up and pay more through one of the HK dealers .

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Roger, PMed you. There are good folks in your backyard.

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    Re: How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Godfrey

    This isn t the first time you jumped into one of my threads and frankly I am pretty sick of you undermining a legitimate question . You seem to enjoy lecturing people in a condescending manner .

    Genrally I try to be clear in my posts what I am trying to accomplish ..yet I get replies from you that imply my posts are just plain stupid . You want to argue about whether my request (which is to find a process with recourse) is even legitimate . Then go on further to tell me ....if I can t trust people don t do business with them .

    I would hope that you fully understand how happy I would be if you never attempted to "help" me again.

    My apologies to others but I won t be bullied out of my own thread .
    I love you too.

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    How to Buy International ? Need some ideas.


    Roger, with your reputation, more than 5 years membership and ~2000 posts here on GetDPI, I would never hesitate to let you try out a lens I were selling, before expecting you to commit yourself to buy it from me.

    So I suggest you simply ask the seller if you can try it before you buy it.

    It's not an unreasonable question, in my opinion.

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