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What's the point?

jonoslack

Active member
Re: What's the point? - and what to do about it.

I appreciated your entire post, Jono, and have a few comments about the bit quoted above as I can relate to it. The bulk of my photographs are simple family pictures. Many of them are prints that I enjoy viewing. A fraction of those are enjoyable to family and friends. Probably very few communicate something of value to acquaintances and strangers. One of my early projects for 2009 is going to be to try to select photos from that last category and set up a website for them.
Thank you Amin
Having binned thousands of my fathers photos (many of which would, I'm sure have been wonderful and interesting), I've learned my lesson about 'keepers'. I'm not planning on going anywhere, but I do realise that the only time to organise is actually when you shoot them (leaving it until later makes the task almost impossible).

I have actually been scanning lots of my old pictures, I started off carefully scanning photo by photo at high resolution with a Nikon 5000 (?) scanner . . . Now I use a decent epson flatbad and scan jpg's 24 at a time to A4 size, and I usually only keep 2 or 3 per film, but they ARE properly archived, so it would be easy to find a film if someone really wanted to.

Nowadays the boys have them on their iphones, which is quite a success, and the website does get looked at (2.9 million page hits last year). But still, it needs refining and streamlining.
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
Hmmm, first of all, did you read my long boring post?
Yes, but it was interesting, not boring.

Your potential change of career reminded me of -- I think it was A Adams -- the quotation about selling shoes, while the creativity continued -- which I think is what you have done.

If you are a nihilist, the point is the old Persian Carpet in Somerset Maugham's story The Razor's Edge [?] -- there is no meaning to it, it's all for nothing -- but them Maugham was getting on a bit then, rather soured.

Otherwise, the point is a form of creativity, and at the peak of Maslow's pyramid. It doesn't have to be justified. Doing it purely for commercial gain comes lower on his pyramid -- it's work, like any other -- you may well enjoy it and there may be creativity in your work, but it's for someone else's benefit; getting people to rise up the pyramid is a well-known managerial tactic -- for employees. [From the general tenor of posts on this forum, it seems to me that people here are either amateurs doing it as a 'hobby' or self-employed pros -- but not people employed to take pix.] For pros -- in the sense of commercial photogs -- creativity will be limited by the clients requirements and demands, and I guess the room for manoever is limited. Very few artistic photographers shoot exactly what they want and make a living from it -- it's not impossible, but uncommon. And not all commercial photogs have photography as a hobby.

So, I see it as artistic creativity; it's an expression of self-actualisation. Justification is neither necessary nor required.

[How much more, Jono?]
 

jonoslack

Active member
Yes, but it was interesting, not boring.

Your potential change of career reminded me of -- I think it was A Adams -- the quotation about selling shoes, while the creativity continued -- which I think is what you have done.

If you are a nihilist, the point is the old Persian Carpet in Somerset Maugham's story The Razor's Edge [?] -- there is no meaning to it, it's all for nothing -- but them Maugham was getting on a bit then, rather soured.

Otherwise, the point is a form of creativity, and at the peak of Maslow's pyramid. It doesn't have to be justified. Doing it purely for commercial gain comes lower on his pyramid -- it's work, like any other -- you may well enjoy it and there may be creativity in your work, but it's for someone else's benefit; getting people to rise up the pyramid is a well-known managerial tactic -- for employees. [From the general tenor of posts on this forum, it seems to me that people here are either amateurs doing it as a 'hobby' or self-employed pros -- but not people employed to take pix.] For pros -- in the sense of commercial photogs -- creativity will be limited by the clients requirements and demands, and I guess the room for manoever is limited. Very few artistic photographers shoot exactly what they want and make a living from it -- it's not impossible, but uncommon. And not all commercial photogs have photography as a hobby.

So, I see it as artistic creativity; it's an expression of self-actualisation. Justification is neither necessary nor required.

[How much more, Jono?]
That's quite enough thank you! However, I get the point quite clearly, and I do agree.
Although I wasn't aware of it, I'm certainly trying to get our new employee to rise up the pyramid (and he is). Interesting stuff.

As I'm sure you understood, my thesis was that if you want to shoot 'communicative' photos, then you need discipline, and clicking away and then passing the responsibility to the viewer to search you out AND to bother to look through thousands of disorganised photos at once is a little fanciful!
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
That's quite enough thank you! However, I get the point quite clearly, and I do agree.
Although I wasn't aware of it, I'm certainly trying to get our new employee to rise up the pyramid (and he is). Interesting stuff.
Once he's up the pyramid, get him onto Hertzberg -- money is hygiene, not motivation, see how he reacts!
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
As I'm sure you understood, my thesis was that if you want to shoot 'communicative' photos, then you need discipline, and clicking away and then passing the responsibility to the viewer to search you out AND to bother to look through thousands of disorganised photos at once is a little fanciful!
Agreed. Keywording isn't so interesting, harder still is getting the organisation and structure of the keywords right at the beginning -- and I only do it for fun :D

I have also gone through my trannies, and thrown about 90% out as being OOF/faded/junk. I scanned the remainder at low res, but only as an archive so I can find them again. There are a few that I will scan 'properly' and try to make prints thereof.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Once he's up the pyramid, get him onto Hertzberg -- money is hygiene, not motivation, see how he reacts!
I've just emailed a link for him . . I should be careful though, he's young, and has a good degree in philosophy, which, basically means that he is quite sure that he's right and really good at arguing, (respectively) !
 

jonoslack

Active member
Agreed. Keywording isn't so interesting, harder still is getting the organisation and structure of the keywords right at the beginning -- and I only do it for fun :D
Absolutely, but my feeling is that unless you do this reasonably well you end up with a 'sea of images' . . . and the answer to the original 'What's the Point' is . . . None!
 

beamon

New member
This thread makes me ever more mindful of what a simple example of Homo sapiens I am.

Images to me, whether mine or others, are simply a means of freezing actuality so that detailed examination can be carried out to whatever depth the viewer wishes. If that examination triggers high order feelings and appreciation...fine. Otherwise, move to the next image. ;)

Though born three years after Adams, Weston, Van Dyke, Cunningham and others organized Group f/64 in 1932, I certainly consider myself in league with them and their Manifesto.
 

jonoslack

Active member
This thread makes me ever more mindful of what a simple example of Homo sapiens I am.

Images to me, whether mine or others, are simply a means of freezing actuality so that detailed examination can be carried out to whatever depth the viewer wishes. If that examination triggers high order feelings and appreciation...fine. Otherwise, move to the next image. ;)
Yes indeed, I couldn't agree more . . . . . but if you present the viewer with a box with 5,000 slides in it . . . . . or a computer library with 5,000 shots, then the depth the viewer wishes will be no depth at all, they'll pass on the opportunity and do something else.

The subject of the thread was
'What's the point' with a good image
My point was that unless people look at them, the answer is 'no point'. Hence my points about making them palatable to view.
 
N

nei1

Guest
The point for me is being inside the moment while it is happening,it doesnt really matter if I press the button on a camera or not.The camera just gives an excuse for looking.You hear a lot of the missed photographs,or if only I had a camera ...;relax,its almost the same,just savour the memory of the moment before it slips away.
Its more interesting to be able to see than it is to be able to photograph but one helps the other and so the vanity of the act is acceptable.Its possible thats what picasso meant.
 
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Ben Rubinstein

Active member
The subject of the thread was
'What's the point' with a good image
My point was that unless people look at them, the answer is 'no point'. Hence my points about making them palatable to view.
Depends if you particularly care if people look at them. If you take them for your own benefit then why not. Bit like the difference between cooking yourself supper and being a chef, food is still good when you only cook for yourself, still achieves a worthy purpose.
 

sinwen

Member
I am a bit late on this interesting subject.

99.99% of my pictures are seen by nobody but me. Showing the pictures isn't the main purpose, it flatters your ego and we all love it. But it is not the point.
For the Japanese archer, the aim isn't the target but the perfect attitude, the very instant which match mind and gestuelle.
For me that instant is a thrill of joy, the culmination in the shutter release. To be trivial, there is some sort of orgasm in there. All what comes after, printing and so forth, is a way to live this instant again.
I am unable to snap a 36 exposures film in a day, twelve at best, and I am puzzled at guys who can take thousand shots in a week-end.
Things are of course much different for the sport/wedding photographer who has to come back with material to sale. When I was 21, I started doing wedding.... for two months .... I realised how bad I was spoiling my joy of taking pictures then did something else.

Nowdays I take even less pictures, watching, guessing the perfect moment in a scenery are nearly enough to my pleasure. If I walk in an old town I am not focus on "what this building was for, when was it built etc... no it is more like from where and when am I going to get the most of it. I am out of everyone consciousness really.

Hope I managed to express myself.

Michel
 
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Oxide Blu

Guest
I take pictures because I have to. It's an emotional thing, nothing years of therapy probably couldn't fix. Now go away. :D
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I must say that this thread, and those who have responded so far, is one of the best and most thoughtful multi-response things I've read on any photographic forum ... and I am saving it to read again in future.

A few additional thoughts on my part:

I wonder how many years it takes before self actualization becomes old? (Don't confuse this with burn-out or "writers block.") Which leads me back to Picasso's quote ... "A painting kept in the closet, might as well be kept in the head." ... BTW, I like the notion that if you enjoy "seeing" in it's most personal form you do not need a camera ... so one could say that the camera is merely a training tool that one eventually outgrows and no longer needs. Man, THAT would save a lot of money :ROTFL:


Since I started this life long trek as an artist ... and a pencil and paper was my initial "media" from which I graduated to oil painting ... seeing has always been part of living to me ... kind of like breathing ... or occasionally excreting :D However, "breathing", "excreting", "eating", "seeing", etc., are living in the moment ... which can most certainly enrich one's life rather than sleep walking through it. Yet, the point is, I do not need a camera to see. God already gave me the tools to do that. One way or another, painting or photography is seeing with a purpose. IMO, that purpose involves "others" seeing what you saw. If I wanted to share what I saw without a picture, I would have become a writer.


IMO, one of the most profound quotes concerning photography is from Robert Doisneau's "Three Seconds From Eternity": "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there ... even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to maybe one, two, perhaps three seconds snatched from eternity."


To me, THAT'S the point of still photography ... and it doesn't matter if it's "just the right nano second of a landscape", or to communicate an idea, or if you are snatching those 1/1000ths for someone else. Even with much of my paid work, clients may provide the purpose, but my camera and I provide the nano second(s). Hmm, that sounds like a title of a book ... "My Camera and I." :)


As a side note concerning sharing: with my wedding work the single best thing I've recently done is provide a client's wedding story on a USB-2 Jump Drive. It has profoundly altered how many people get to see the end result because the Bride carries the darned thing in their purse, and everyone has a computer. Mundane? Perhaps. However, I strive to make the work anything but mundane, and the challenge is to transcend that mundane purpose by snatching those precious nano seconds out of the thin air of eternity.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Depends if you particularly care if people look at them. If you take them for your own benefit then why not. Bit like the difference between cooking yourself supper and being a chef, food is still good when you only cook for yourself, still achieves a worthy purpose.
Hi Ben
I'm not sure that the cooking analogy really holds up, in that any particular piece of food CAN only be consumed by one person, whether it was cooked by a chef or by yourself - still, I do take your point.

I did actually make this qualification in my original post,:

So, after my preamble, let me get to my point. Leaving out commercial photography (which, for my point we could describe as pictures taken for someone else's purpose) I think there are 3 reasons people take pictures:

1. The Process
i.e. pictures taken for the sake of taking them - this might be comparison of one camera to another, experimentation, or just to play with our new toys. This site is full of such shots, it's a perfectly valid reason to own a camera, and it makes a fine (if expensive) hobby.

2. Recollection
Pictures taken to remember an event, a person, a scene or holiday. Nothing else needs to be said - although if they also communicate then my points below are probably relevant.

3. Communication.
Pictures taken to communicate to others.
I really like Neil's point about being inside the moment, and not even needing a camera, and I'm certainly in Oxide Blu's camp in that I cannot stop taking pictures. Perhaps this goes into the 'process' section above, I think the idea that snapping away is training in looking is splendid - perhaps for me it's the biggest personal bonus photography has given me.

But I hold to my point that if you have any artistic pretensions, then the photographs are designed to communicate something, and in that case it needs to be seen by someone to have a point, and it's the artist's duty to make that job easy.
 
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jonoslack

Active member
One way or another, painting or photography is seeing with a purpose. IMO, that purpose involves "others" seeing what you saw. If I wanted to share what I saw without a picture, I would have become a writer.
. . . and how much MORE rigorous one would have to be then!:eek:

As a side note concerning sharing: with my wedding work the single best thing I've recently done is provide a client's wedding story on a USB-2 Jump Drive. It has profoundly altered how many people get to see the end result because the Bride carries the darned thing in their purse, and everyone has a computer. Mundane? Perhaps. However, I strive to make the work anything but mundane, and the challenge is to transcend that mundane purpose by snatching those precious nano seconds out of the thin air of eternity.
What an excellent idea - another way of providing images in a format which actually gets looked at.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I read this thread and it is just a nice constant reminder why i spent 90 percent of my entire life shooting as a kid to being a adult, well still working on that part. LOL

Honestly not sure what my life would have truly been have I not found how to express myself at this level. I always wanted to be a teacher and maybe why I enjoy doing the workshops so much. But the main point is my mind feels like a 24/7 365 around the clock non stop photography induced mind set. Just never leaves me and I think if i had to quote myself on this subject is i need photography to breath . Maybe the best way i could sum it up and kind of scary thinking if i have not found it what my life would have been otherwise.

Maybe i need that second espresso now
 
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Oxide Blu

Guest
... But I hold to my point that if you have any artistic pretensions, then the photographs are designed to communicate something, and in that case it needs to be seen by someone to have a point, and it's the artist's duty to make that job easy.
I have a close friend that is a very successful painter, oils. One day I was asking her about learning to paint. She commented about how long it would take to go thru the learning curve, and then how many 'great' painting would I be able to make in what is left of my lifetime? Enough for a show? I told here all I wanted was just one.

Some time later she told me she started painting for herself, for the first time. These are paintings she does only for herself because she wants to, without regard of ever showing them or selling them. I asked why the change, she said it was because of my comment about wanting just 1 good image. She realized I do my art for myself, not others, and she had not satisfied her own internal 'artist' by painting to fulfill the demands of others, the galleries, what sells.

The only way you can satisfy your own internal 'artist' is to work for that 'artist', and only that 'artist', without regard for the consequences of critics or the bias of seeking someone else's approval that precedes any expectation or anticipation of showing your work. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's "duty".

And no, I still haven't touched oils. :D
 
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