What's the point?

[fotografz]

We are all here because we like to take photographs. But somewhere along the trek one has to sit back and ask one's self, "What's The Point?"

Everywhere you look, there are images ... in fact, a LOT of really good images. So the question is, what motivates YOU to keep doing it?

Is it a form of introspection? Is it to leave something behind, like a bit of immortality? Is it an outward form of expression for those less gregarious?

Some of us do it for money, even do it for all of the money we earn. Logically, that's a big motivator ... but not necessarily what emotionally drives us.

As of late, (maybe I'm getting too old : -) ... but I have to have a purpose, a reason, it has to be FOR something or someone. I still take my camera on outings that have no utilitarian purpose, but then afterwards scratch my head as to what to do with yet more images in the sea of images I have already taken.

Picasso had a saying that haunts me ... "A picture kept in the closet, might as well be kept in the head."

Frankly, this is why I shoot weddings. It gives me a purpose. A place to apply the talent and skill I honed doing "decisive moment" images during my travels over the years ... that now just reside on a hard drive or a portfolio ... in a "virtual closet" so to speak.

Don't get me wrong ... I get a "high" when I pull off a shot that has no apparent reason for existence except to ... well, give me that high. But when I pull off something out of the ordinary for me (like an urban landscape), it makes me better realize it was lucky, and there are others (on this forum) that consistently are lucky with these type shots. Theirs has purpose as a part of a body of work ... mine is a "one of" that maybe gets posted once, and put in the "closet" with a bunch of other "lucky one ofs". Like the attached A900 image I shot yesterday while at Detroit's Farmer's Market that was uncharacteristically abandoned due to a severe winter storm ... it printed up really well, but will be forgotten by this time next year.

Your thoughts?

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

What a great topic Marc. Very interesting thoughts on this, I kind of follow your logic some. For me obviously it is driven by money but that is a purpose that i have to do. It really has nothing to do with the other side which is the love i have for photography. Yes they are intertwined and in a knot sometimes. But what brings up your point so well is i will shoot something maybe post it here than it resides on a hard drive forever. It never makes it to my portfolio and/or in print form. Even all the nice shots i do on the workshops they really never go anywhere and it is not because there not good they just don't fit in on the Pro side and maybe that is bad. At this stage in my life it is more the challenge to get a shot or maybe better said it is the relief to express myself and get something shot so it does not stick in my head and be dormant. I think the basic fundamental reason we shoot is first to express ourself and also challenge oneself to get better all the time. This maybe the biggest joy about photography and i think why we really even started this forum and that is it is a learning experience that you never stop learning no matter how many images , no matter how long you just don't ever get bored and tired of it. What makes this great for me is i get to share the experience and ultimately i think this is what drives me. I also believe this is my biggest purpose in having be a owner here is i get to talk it everyday and my life get's to expand. I like to say that if i did not have you folks to talk to everyday than I may just get to bored in my life. So shooting no matter what it is gives me energy in my life and what i like most about it is I never stop learning myself, so maybe the actually picture taking process is maybe not so important but the experience of it is.

Still working on the first espresso here but we still look at photography is a way to master it too which we never truly do no matter how good you are or think you are but we strive every time for that winner. I think the overall driving force is the challenge it brings us even though it sits in a closet and never comes out to the world that is not so important but getting it is. Initial thoughts I may have more after 3 expresso's. LOL

 

[Bob]

It is a strange "double-thrill" for me.
First there is an artistic thing, for many years I painted for a hobby. Starting with a blank piece of paper and filling in some scene with paint and brush. I like watercolor the best, since it is immediate and help me loosen up and not get obsessive with all the detail that I might be able to put in with oils. Sometimes I see something that catches my eye and just get stuck there looking at it finding something in that impression that glues me to the spot. I try to get that same feeling into my pictures no matter what the medium. I rarely succeed, but when I do, maybe once or twice per year, I end up with something that has a bit of the universe in it.

The second bit is, frankly I am a geek.
In my other avocation, I spend months arguing with other geeks about technical minutiae related to software standards, particularly xml protocol work. My first personal computer was an IBM 1130, my second a PDP8, my third a vax, my third a MITS, and now I have lost count. I have been working with these to make them do something visual from the beginning. Since my time management skills are so rotten, I will sit in front of a box playing with some bit of technology for over 24 hours in a row.
I have fallen in and out of love with all sorts of technical things, flying, soaring, woodworking, metalworking, wet darkrooms, roll-your own E-6, chemistry, physics, they all last a few years until I get some level of mastery, and then I get bored.
I have not yet gotten completely bored with taking pictures from my brownie in 1965 to my P45+ in 2008. I get bored when I HAVE to take pictures, I don't when I WANT to take pictures. It is pretty perverse.
I am still looking to get that special image, but I am afraid that when I do, I will drop photography all-together.
I really doubt that will occur since I am so far off the mark.
-bob

 

[jlm]

back in the early 70's, my crank got turned when I read the Daybooks of Edward Weston, then the writings of Ansel and the images of same, Strand, and a few others. my photography has always tended toward more contemplation and previewing, more contemplation and perfecting the craft. What I seem to enjoy most is the abstraction and focus of interest a photograph can bring to what we see around us every day

 

[ddk]

Mine has never been about money, it started with love of equipment and mystic of a darkroom when I was much younger, then I quit for a very long time and not missed it until that part of my life was over; I knew that I made a mistake not recording it. So at times, now, I shoot to record my new life and family and other times I massage and satisfy my creative side. I've narrowed my vision and like you don't shoot scenery or subjects that don't excite me, just because they're there...

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

It's a drive.

I was born into an artistic family but although I could 'see' art, I could never create it.

Then I discovered photography.

I shoot weddings as a day job, my drive for that is more personal stemming from a chip on my shoulder about my own c**p wedding and in a society where the the couples are very young and the wedding is an excuse for the parents to celebrate, with the couple as an afterthought, I have a drive to try and make it their wedding, not just a wedding they were an excuse for.

In my personal life however photography is my way to express myself which as I understand it is what art is all about. My current series in Jerusalem is expressing my emotions for the city, how I view it, how I react to what it is, etc. My landscape work was always expressing my own emotions though for years I never 'saw' it, could never understand why I took what I did, what was driving me. When I did finally find out what it was I was trying to say my best friend told me it had always been obvious to him but he hadn't ever wanted to say anything thinking that the expression was on purpose!

It's a drive, where it will lead me who knows. I'm quite happy just to ride the wave, for most of my life I struggled to find expression and I'm not going to knock it once I've found it!

The photo that made me realise what I was trying to say, pretty much everything I've ever done has been a variation of the same...

To be honest I don't think I'm a photographer. For me everything between the picture I have in my mind, be it for years or while looking at the scene unfolding, and the finished printed image is just faff. I couldn't care less about the process, never have done unless it stands in between me and how I want the final print to look. As such I only photograph that which allows me to express, which is why I will never become a 'photographer' in the carry a camera everywhere find photos everywhere type genre. I had an idea for a photo today during lunch. It's a very specific idea. It may take me years to actually make it, but I'll keep looking until I do find it. If I could paint then the expression of my emotional reaction to the scene in my mind would be actualised far sooner. But I can't paint so I'll go looking for it and one day hopefully make it real using a camera and lens as my brush.

 

[karrphoto]

I've found a new passion for photography, something I don't see a lot of, or a lot of the subjects I've been shooting. Panoramas. Yeah, they have been around forever... but, I'm really starting to enjoy photography again going out and shooting and seeing what I can get out of a subject. It's been money in the past, for now, while I'm on disability, it's for the sanity of getting me out of the house and doing something with my time other than rotting in front of the TV. To give you an idea, there are tons of downtown Chicago panos.. but I was able to find a new vantage.. and did a 24 picture pano. I did 24 because I fell on the snow, cracked my 17-40 off it's base and screwed up my 24-70/2.8 that was in my pocket. So I shot with my 70-200. I did 2 rows of 12 and it stitches beautifully. I now have a nice 24"x96" Print and 24"x72" print, the later hanging on the wall in my book binding room. The former I still don't have a wall big enough to hang it on. But it's always been about either the enjoyment or the $, or seeing others reactions to my work.. that always gives me a good feeling too, when someone looks at a print and has a "that's just amazing" response... nothing better, well.. one thing better.. but.. not for this forum. >

 

[johnastovall]

As for 'Why, why as van Gogh said, 'To make them say, 'He feels deeply. He feels tenderly.''

 

[Don Libby]

I think the major part of "why" is to share. As a landscape artist I get to go to places that many don't either because they physically can't or a combination of lack of funds or time.

When I'm at that right place and right time and capture something that few have seen and I was lucky enough to then I almost feel an obligation to share it. There's also an obligation to teach others as well about our environment and how fragile it is.

There's more to it but I need to get off the soapbox for now.

I'll close with this ... I always wondered about people who stated they just loved what they did for a living - now I'm one of them....

don

I agree - very good topic

 

[back alley]

was it winogrand who said, i like to see what things look like photographed by me?

 

[fotografz]

I think the major part of "why" is to share. As a landscape artist I get to go to places that many don't either because they physically can't or a combination of lack of funds or time.

When I'm at that right place and right time and capture something that few have seen and I was lucky enough to then I almost feel an obligation to share it. There's also an obligation to teach others as well about our environment and how fragile it is.

There's more to it but I need to get off the soapbox for now.

I'll close with this ... I always wondered about people who stated they just loved what they did for a living - now I'm one of them....

don

I agree - very good topic

Please, DON'T get off your soap box! It is a terrific purpose for your photography ... to help people realize what they have to lose or lose for their children.

 

[fotografz]

was it winogrand who said, i like to see what things look like photographed by me?

Is that introspective or egotistical? Not that it matters.

 

[fotografz]

It's a drive.

I was born into an artistic family but although I could 'see' art, I could never create it.

Then I discovered photography.

I shoot weddings as a day job, my drive for that is more personal stemming from a chip on my shoulder about my own c**p wedding and in a society where the the couples are very young and the wedding is an excuse for the parents to celebrate, with the couple as an afterthought, I have a drive to try and make it their wedding, not just a wedding they were an excuse for.

In my personal life however photography is my way to express myself which as I understand it is what art is all about. My current series in Jerusalem is expressing my emotions for the city, how I view it, how I react to what it is, etc. My landscape work was always expressing my own emotions though for years I never 'saw' it, could never understand why I took what I did, what was driving me. When I did finally find out what it was I was trying to say my best friend told me it had always been obvious to him but he hadn't ever wanted to say anything thinking that the expression was on purpose!

It's a drive, where it will lead me who knows. I'm quite happy just to ride the wave, for most of my life I struggled to find expression and I'm not going to knock it once I've found it!

The photo that made me realise what I was trying to say, pretty much everything I've ever done has been a variation of the same...

To be honest I don't think I'm a photographer. For me everything between the picture I have in my mind, be it for years or while looking at the scene unfolding, and the finished printed image is just faff. I couldn't care less about the process, never have done unless it stands in between me and how I want the final print to look. As such I only photograph that which allows me to express, which is why I will never become a 'photographer' in the carry a camera everywhere find photos everywhere type genre. I had an idea for a photo today during lunch. It's a very specific idea. It may take me years to actually make it, but I'll keep looking until I do find it. If I could paint then the expression of my emotional reaction to the scene in my mind would be actualised far sooner. But I can't paint so I'll go looking for it and one day hopefully make it real using a camera and lens as my brush.

Interesting Ben, I drew like crazy when I was a kid, and became a painter and designer ... I came to photography through shooting reference for my art work. Eventually, when I traveled on business I didn't have time to draw or paint, so I took my M camera and thought of it as my "portable creativity." Now I'm so busy with photography, I still don't have time to paint or draw.

 

[fotografz]

As for 'Why, why as van Gogh said, 'To make them say, 'He feels deeply. He feels tenderly.''

Taht requires that the work is out there to be seen.

 

[johnastovall]

How many people saw van Gogh's work before he died? I have shows, enter shows, have net folios and keep putting my works up in local venues.

If I can only communicate with one photo to one person in my life time deep feelings, that is enough "Why."

 

[nostatic]

I could write a book on this...and in fact just finished one (shameless plug - though it is more of an abstraction on the question).

Instead of write something direct here, allow me to cut and paste a few things that were written for different topics, but speak to this. In short, I think "the point" is about communication. It is what drives the world, and we have an inherent need to communicate both with others *and* ourselves. Photos use a visual language that one needs to learn, though some aspects are somewhat universal (what the last blurb below speaks to). I shoot because if I'm not creating, I'm dead, and I desperately need to communicate what I see/feel to others as well as myself. And in the end, it is all about mercy and grace.
-----

mercy wheels

no point in direction
it's coming no matter what
say goodnight sweet prince
your fight was gallant
your methods flawed
your heart tragic
don't be afraid to cry
before you know it will pass
everyone will remember you
until they drop the rose and walk past

mercy is trying to visit
but the barricades are strong
dreams made of heat in your heart
waiting for darkness to come
and steel quickly
wishing for arms to hold
passing it off as fancy
but desperate
for tenderness
and mercy

you had a good run
and thought that living was
running to keep up
and keep tabs

may grace be with you
because mercy is scarce
but i fear you'll feel neither
you were taught to win
but never learned to fail
pick it up on the fly
or during the fall
find a way home

mercy dear mary
slaughtered before waking
closing doors and bolting ways
swinging remains reminding
of lives that spun out
pirouette and pratfall
packing boxes
cleaned out after you're gone

living in seven time
but it's an eightfold world
you tap your feet
but mercy doesn't feel the beat
the end of the sky
shivering hues and streaks
you loved the texture
until you could really feel it
now it's too much
mercy come
the mourners are singing
mercy save
your broken soul
mercy love
your analog pulse
before it is quiet

dragged by your feet
to do it again
until it's really wrong
you're on your knees
mercy wheels
turning again
-----

point

left point driving right
here i thought it might
feel ok or at least not sting
as bad as some of the other things

turns out it does and rather now
intensifies as i'm feeling how
i didn't before and clearly see
what a tidy mess lies before me

time to unpack and stay awhile
despite it feeling like being on trial
for crimes committed by the mother
and counsel now left for another

discering folk will pass it by
another search can let you try
to live and learn and love to be
alone together, myself and me
-----

"Universal" is often loaded with Western-centric fodder. While there are some constants to the human condition, the beauty is often in the diversity and specifics. Art speaks to different people different ways, and the lowest common denominator is often just that. When we engage a piece we bring our baggage to the table and it flows over the experience. An artist can't really account for that...if they try to anticipate they will generally fail (or make a fluff Hollywood blockbuster).

Discussions like this are relatively new for me because I am not classically trained in the arts, and instead stomped my way into things along the way. I find that artists are generally insecure and selfish (I know I am). I don't say that pejoratively....everyone is to some degree, artists are just more up front about it. They want people to react to their work. Unless it is shown, it doesn't exist. It is a fine line though of having to create for one's own needs, but require that others consume it lest it have no meaning.

There is no inherent meaning...that is an overlay generated by the person who engages the piece. The level of engagement depends on myriad factors, and the reaction can vary from day to day or hour to hour. It is the proverbial moving target. Therefore an artist has to be true to their own vision and damn the torpedos. The trick is figuring out that internal truth, and experimenting with how to realize it. Luckily my "formal" training is as a chemist, so the concept of experimentation is ingrained in me. And thankfully due to a bunch of other life experiences, I realize that there is more to life than calculation. And so I shoot...and write...and play music...and try to get a good night's sleep every once in awhile.

Mitch's images often resonate with me because I am essentially an "egg". I resonate strongly with Asian culture and themes, and get a visceral response when I see iconography from the east. Having been to China a number of times, when I see some of the shots of Bangkok, I'm transported to another time and start to smell the claypot, hear the cacophony of dialects, and feel the humidity on my brow. But not all of his shots do that to me. Some have other effects, and others just pass over me.

While I consider myself to be a member of the human race and certainly am susceptible to all the various common conditions, my unique set of experiences will cause resonance with certain stimuli. And those frequencies may or may not jibe with others. And that's ok. As they say in the auto industry, "there's a butt for every seat."

(responding to a comment that a person's "critique" that consisted of a description of how the shot spoke to him along with a sketch he made of the photo wasn't really in fact a critique): I think that he did just that in the sketch. Instead of using text, he used image to communicate the elements that struck him.

The more I think about it, the more I am struck about the profound sense of visual literacy that was transmitted in the exchange. All mediums are inexact at describing the analog world. Text has enjoyed primacy as the de facto "learned" way of analysis. But we are in different times, and it is essential that people can read and write with multimedia. By sketching, the author conveyed his critique in an efficient and rich manner. I often wish I could do that...

 

[fotografz]

How many people saw van Gogh's work before he died? I have shows, enter shows, have net folios and keep putting my works up in local venues.

If I can only communicate with one photo to one person in my life time deep feelings, that is enough "Why."

That's an interesting distinction. Van Goth moved a scarce few people in his lifetime, and millions after.

 

[fotografz]

How do you feel about the massive proliferation of images and means to see them these days? It sometimes feels so impersonal and superficial.

(As mundane as wedding work may seem to some people, maybe even looked down on ... when done well, it's extremely personal and one has the viewer's undivided attention ... because it all has to to with them ... their 15 minutes of fame so to speak. Portrait work done well can be the same.)

 

[nostatic]

How do you feel about the massive proliferation of images and means to see them these days? It sometimes feels so impersonal and superficial.

I have no problem with the so-called "democratization of media." I'm a huge fan of amateur cultural production, believe in remix as an art form, and encourage everyone to try and create, be it with text, image, sound, or combination thereof.

I'm not sure I agree with the words "impersonal" and "superficial." The bottom line is that there is somewhat of a conservation of talent, and not everyone can be an artist. But everyone can create and make art (it just not might be particularly "good", whatever that means). There certainly is a lot of stuff out there, and it can be difficult to find things that speak to you. Lots of chaff per wheat. But is that any different than before?

Before we had the distribution network and the tools, less people made are but less people could avail themselves as well. There were arbiters of quality and they served as gatekeepers for the unwashed masses. Well now everyone gets a voice and a way to scream. It is a case of differentiation now, but again, talent and uniqueness will often rise to the surface. But sh*t floats as well...that hasn't changed either.

The bottom line is that what someone else creates doesn't dilute what I create and vice versa. I may not like what the other person makes and find it boring or ugly, but like my dad said, "son, you're not useless, you can always serve as a bad example."

Just like when Leica comes out with the M8.3, your M8.2 will still make the same pictures it did before. There's just something else out there...

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

How do you feel about the massive proliferation of images and means to see them these days? It sometimes feels so impersonal and superficial.

(As mundane as wedding work may seem to some people, maybe even looked down on ... when done well, it's extremely personal and one has the viewer's undivided attention ... because it all has to to with them ... their 15 minutes of fame so to speak. Portrait work done well can be the same.)

I think that it is forcing the realisation that the imagery needs to be intensely personal, a projection of the person creating it. A counter balance to the prolifiration of imagery you mention, from big time commercial at one end of the scale to meaningless snapshots and wannabee photography at the other.

I think there is a reason why journalistic photography will be remembered while the commercial ads (including most everything connected to celebrities) are forgotten seconds after being seen. One is trying to say something with their photography, the other? I'm sure you can tell us Marc, it was your job!

To be honest even journalism now has been heavily diluted by a need to make headlines, a soulless capturing of history heavily twisted towards media bias and finding pictures to fit the headline and not the opposite which is what used to make that genre of photography so great.

The answer? Personally I think photography with soul will survive and go down in history. Photography without, photography just to obtain the bottom line, photography to spec or to please a photo club panel? It always was dead...

I think that is why of all commercial photography, wedding work as pointed out by Marc is unique in that it really is the photographers artistic response to the emotions and memories being created before their camera. Far more documentary than commercial and the reason why my mentor and myself in turn define our wedding photography as documentary photography (though not to the clients, it doesn't sound romantic exactly! ). I advertise 'Capturing the Moment'. That contains far more in 3 words than any commercial venture and it is exactly that which makes it timeless. It's also why I find a lot of the modern genre of PJ photography to be false, for the main it looks pretty soulless in it's production line reuse of effects, both in camera and without, to try and be different. If you look at wedding forums you see as little emotion in general as the set up pre-PJ days, it's all just as manufactured but this time with a tilt. As in the past it's individuals who are adding their soul into the photos and they are few and far between. For anyone who hasn't seen Marc's wedding work, it's a prime example of what isn't production line PJ wedding photography.