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wide open look photos

geotrupede

New member
Is wide open photography (like summilux / noctilux / etc) only suitable for portraits?

I really like composition and multi story telling of photographers like Alex Webb.
I like a lot Bruce Gilden gritty look.
Koudelka photos.
Etc.
But I cannot find anyone of the same caliber using wide open lenses.
It seems like masters prefer composition and composition for them is possible only by having all in focus.
Is this true?
I really like the selective focus of luminous lenses but I am not clear how to use this beyond the usual cliches or portrait situations.
I am trying to widen my horizon and know a little more, so examples are very much what I am looking for. I am willing to learn.
Any idea where to start from?
Thanks
G>

PS I am not a pro so please excuse it this is a basic question or a clear lack of knowledge. for me photography is just a beloved hobby :)
 

geotrupede

New member
could it be then then the 'all in focus' is akin to a symphony while a 'selective focus' is more like an italian operetta?
And is 'symphonic' photography much more popular between masters?
Any example of masters using solo voices?
G
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Most documentary photographers want to show the environment, so very few look for shallow depth of field. Also, the compression of depth with a large depth of field makes the image more graphic, more abstract. This is really an aesthetic codified in Straight Photography and a reaction to soft focus photography.

But have a look at wildlife photography by Nick Brandt.

http://www.nickbrandt.com

David Burnett is a working today using a 4x5 view camera and its movements in photojournalism for its narrow DoF.

http://www.davidburnett.com

Oddly enough, the first practitioner of Straight Photography (known as Naturalistic Photography at that time) is a 19th century photographer named Peter Henry Emerson (we like to think Straight Photography was a modern idea). While taking a documentary style, he believed a shallow depth of field was more "natural" as he thought it imitated human vision (it did not, but it works for him).

http://www.moma.org/collection/artist.php?artist_id=1724
 

airfrogusmc

Well-known member
Most documentary photographers want to show the environment, so very few look for shallow depth of field. Also, the compression of depth with a large depth of field makes the image more graphic, more abstract. This is really an aesthetic codified in Straight Photography and a reaction to soft focus photography.

But have a look at wildlife photography by Nick Brandt.

Nick Brandt : Photography

David Burnett is a working today using a 4x5 view camera and its movements in photojournalism for its narrow DoF.

David Burnett | Photographer

Oddly enough, the first practitioner of Straight Photography (known as Naturalistic Photography at that time) is a 19th century photographer named Peter Henry Emerson (we like to think Straight Photography was a modern idea). While taking a documentary style, he believed a shallow depth of field was more "natural" as he thought it imitated human vision (it did not, but it works for him).

MoMA | The Collection | Peter Henry Emerson (British, 1856–1936)
Hi Will, didn't he considered even by himself as a pictorial photographer which was a style that tried to imitate paintings which in the late 1800s was impressionism? Straight photography which included Weston, Adams and even Stieglitz later on, was a rebellion against pictorial photography. So Emerson wasn't a straight photographer at all and he was a even, by his own definition, a pictorial photographer.
 
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Shashin

Well-known member
Hi Will, actually he was considered even by himself as a pictorial photographer which was a style that tried to imitate paintings which in the late 1800s was impressionism. Straight photography which included Weston, Adams and even Stieglitz was a rebellion against pictorial photography. So Emerson wasn't a straight photographer at all he was a even by his own definition a pictorial photographer.
Emersion headed the movement against pictorial photography--he believe in the merger of science and art and that photography has its own aesthetic. The quarrel between him and the leading pictorial photographer at the time H. P. Robinson (author of Pictorial Effect in Photography) is famous. Emerson in his manifesto Naturalist Photography did predate what would later become straight photography--unmanipulated images and straight printing. Emerson did not use soft-focus lenses. The fact he used the word "pictorial" was not surprising--photography was new and still finding an identity, but he was clearly against the imitation of painting and the other "fine arts.". He even spent time with the leading scientists (chemists and opticians) working in the photographic process to form his ideas.

But the confusing thing with Emerson is that where he thought the straight technique of not manipulating the image and framing it in the camera and using no artificial techniques or manipulations was an art form, he later recanted and declared this type of photograph not art. He later went on to write a history of pictorial photography. But his book Naturalistic Photography was later rediscovered by the straight photographers. Looking at Emerson's work shows a clear aesthetic toward the straight photography approach. Unfortunately, he still gets lumped together with 19th century pictorial photographers as if the only type of photography in the 19th century was pictorial photography (even what we call street photography was done in the 19th century--Street Life in London, for example).
 

airfrogusmc

Well-known member
I think there was a lot of confusion in the early days. Stieglitz changed. Steichen changed. They both started doing what was considered pictorial and moved away from it later. Most artists grow and change over the course of a career.

Adams hated labels probably because some labeled him a straight photographer but he did take some of the pictorial philosophies (not recording the obvious) as did Weston.

I think that's why sometimes labels can be misleading.
 

geotrupede

New member
Thanks all!!!
This is very interesting.
So pictorialism and soft focus or subject selective focus seems to go back a long way. But then apart very few contemporary examples, it seems like straight photography has become the main stream, something upon which most agree.
Yet there are endless discussion about bokeh and noctiluxes... but seems almost without any relation to what photography has become.
Am I missing something? Or is there a neo pictorialism?
I am very interested in this discussion
G
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Yet there are endless discussion about bokeh and noctiluxes... but seems almost without any relation to what photography has become.
Am I missing something? Or is there a neo pictorialism?

G
Photographic styles and creativity has little to do with lens onanism and pixel peeping. Anyone with enough money can by a Noct, not so many can release its creative potential and even fewer can use that potential to tell a story. Using different photographic techniques to convey a visual message is one of the most fascinating sides of photography, and the way limited depth of field changes how the viewer understands an image opens up endless possibilities. There is however a very thin line between creative storytelling and kitsch. There's nothing wrong with crossing that line, but understanding the difference is a challenge sometimes, which is clearly demonstrated every second of the day on the world wide web.
 

geotrupede

New member
ok, discussion heating up. please keep things nice and not judgmental. we are all friends :) , the ones with bucks and the one without, we all share passion for photography. :)

You mention kitsch, I also have heard things like cliche, etc.
however what is cliche? what is kitsch.
Is it not cliche a straight photo where everything is in focus and we have 4 subject splitting the frame with a boy in the corner looking at us?
I have seen fantastic and inspiring images which are all alike.
Work of masters like Webb, so exceptionally beautiful, and widely copied and referenced.. is it not a cliche by the fact that is so common and referenced to? Is it not kitsch? (I like this style a lot and I think he is genius, but I am confused by the fact that this style is becoming ubiquitous)

Why there is none (with very limited exceptions) good example of picture where not everything is in focus? Is that a no no of photography?

Are we all fascinated so much by straight photography that we cannot see an alternative?

G
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Sorry if I came across as judgmental. That was not my intention. There's nothing wrong with being able to afford the best kit, nothing wrong with being a pixel peeper, but it ain't necessarily ending up as great art or great reportage.

I suppose that when enough photographers copy a certain photographer's style, it is in danger of becoming cliché, but in the meantime, the real master has usually moved on or refined his style further. Although there's a lot to learn from studying the photographs of others, the real challenge lies in being able to see the motives in the real world, your real world, the motives that none or many have taken photos of yet, those that are there for a fraction of a second and those that have been there for centuries, and then attach that motive to a piece of film or a piece of electronic wizardry, using the technique that is best suited to show what you see or would want to see in a print or on Facebook.

David Burnett was mentioned above, and I hate it when his homepage is linked to. It always ends with me sitting for hours going through his amazing archives. They are amazing partly because of the enormous amount of great photographs, but even more so because of the diversity, the way he masters so many photographic techniques and media. Few photographers are more relevant to this thread. Thanks for wasting my time, Will :)
 

mesposito

Member
Thanks all!!!
This is very interesting.
So pictorialism and soft focus or subject selective focus seems to go back a long way. But then apart very few contemporary examples, it seems like straight photography has become the main stream, something upon which most agree.
Yet there are endless discussion about bokeh and noctiluxes... but seems almost without any relation to what photography has become.
Am I missing something? Or is there a neo pictorialism?
I am very interested in this discussion
G
I think you maybe just went a bit too far in your conclusion. Let's see if I can explain it right.

BTW, One of the best ways to study the history of pictorialism and straight photography is to study the life and photography of Alfred Stieglitz. Personally I consider him a key player since he had influence in both painting and photography.

When you mention bokeh and what photography has become you are mixing a style/effect with a movement. For example, portrait photography doesn't go against the movement by throwing the background out of focus. That is a stylistic effect to isolate the subject. I'm pretty sure Edward Weston would have continued to do portraits that way in the studio, even though he was f64'ing it on the weekends. :^}

It would be safer to say that Landscape photography leads the straight movement, in large part thanks to Alfred Stieglitz, Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, and others.

>> Or is there a neo pictorialism

I don't think it ever left stylistically as an option. The difference now is that photographers are no longer (en masse) trying to imitate the Art of the 1800's.
 

alajuela

Active member
This is going in two different directions - I like both - but not recognizing two subjects and intertwining them is not going to be productive - I think.

First the historical - Shasin I think characterizes it pretty well, also as artfrogusmc makes good points that people (photographers) - labels can be misleading. change styles and mature

Also should mention that I think pictorialism were pushed in that direction because of.

1. Equipment limitations (lenses) focus fall off, lens Aberrations, quality of chemicals etc. Sloooooooooow Slooooow film.

2. A developed sense of elitism - and a strict defined definition of "Art". I also should mention I think the attempt to classify this form was made to separate themselves from the "working" photographers , some of the famous ones who have survived today =- Currier and Ives - Edwin Curtis - Atget ., and many many more

3. That has been happening in every field - Photography has not and will not be different.

I also think the pictorialist made some nice images ;-)

Selective focus is as old as view cameras - In a modern terms - pretty old.

Second

What is not old ---- is pixel peeping and the rapid advances in CAD manufacturing allowing a new "no pun intended" focus on resolutions interpreted as sharpe. You couple this with computers - digital analysis - the entire evaluation field has changed. Photography by its nature has always been a close marriage of technology and art . A true meaning of "Art and Craft" so also this would be expected.

The proliferation of cameras and communication means has brought a sea of images and experts. - I agree with Jorgen - you need to understand the difference. Crowd sourcing is good for selling toothpaste, democracy is good for city council and trying to protect individual rights. But to define art - not so good.

There are some very talented and also educated people on this forum and some excellent images, I dare say probably best on the WWW in one forum.

My advice - if you can, avoid labels, find the aspect of photography you find fascinating , hone your skills, practice - practice - practice, and then let your mind take you somewhere so the image tells you what to do to it. So you see the "STORY" -- It is your frame (canvas) - treat it properly.
 
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Mike M

New member
Hi geotrupede,

It's best to consider the relationship between figure and ground when considering issues about how to use fast lenses at wide open apertures. In perception psychology, the figure is what captures the viewer's attention. Meanwhile, the ground is what the viewer ignores. A classic example is the graphic below:


wikipedia

When a viewer concentrates on the white portion of the graphic while ignoring the black portion, then he sees a vase. On the other hand, if he concentrates on the black portion while ignoring the white portion he will see the faces of two people. The way this relates to lens usage and composition in photography is that whenever an object in an image has "distinct contours" then it can be discerned as a figure by viewers. Meanwhile, if an object has indistinct (ambiguous or even non-existent) contours then a viewer has a hard time attending to it and consequently the object becomes part of the image's ground.

1) Objects that are in-focus have distinct contours and can become the figure portion of a photograph.
2) Objects that are out-of-focus (bokeh etc) lack contours and can become the ground of the photograph.

Obviously, there are lots of ways that a lens can relate to an object when composing a photograph that can alter the relationship between figure and ground. For example, a Noctilux shot at .95 will create a huge blurry ground in any portions of the photo that are outside of the DOF. However, any objects contained within the DOF will have distinct contours and can become figures. The point is that a really fast lens like a Noctilux might give a photographer more options than slower lenses for placing objects within the figure or ground portion of a photograph.

But, it's important to remember that the real key to the figure/ground relationship when it comes to photography is the presence of distinct/indistinct contours. In that sense, the use of lenses at certain apertures are only one part of the equation. Any technique that creates distinct contours (hard lighting, silhouettes, high contrast etc) also creates figures. Conversely, any technique that creates indistinct contours (motion blur, shutter drag, dappled lighting etc) also creates grounds. For example, an object could be in perfect focus and yet exposed with a shutter drag to create motion blur. In this case, the contours of the object would be indistinct and become part of the ground of the image even though it was originally in perfect focus at capture.

On a related topic, the difference between so-called "Pictorialism" and "Straight" photography is really about the degrees of figure and ground contained within the images. Straight photography has a higher degree of figures available for the viewer to attend while Pictorial photographs generally have more indistinct contours and therefore push objects into the ground. A similar division of style also exists in the world of painting. Heinrich Wolfflin, the famous art historian, claimed that all styles of painting come down to just the simple difference between linear and painterly. Linear paintings have high degrees of distinct contours present and are associated with Renaissance Art while painterly paintings have high degrees of indistinct contours and are associated with movements like Impressionism. The main point is that there is a direct correlation between straight/pictorial styles of photography with linear/painterly styles of painting. The degrees of distinct/indistinct contours present is what determines the styles according to the figure/ground relationship from perception psychology.

Here's two quick examples of the different styles of painting mentioned by Wolfflin:

Ingres - Napoleon


Delacroix - Chopin


The portrait of Napoleon by Ingres is an excellent example of linear painting and contains strong figures with distinct contours. Meanwhile, the portait of Chopin by Delacroix is an excellent example of painterly painting and contains a high degree of indistinct and ambiguous contours that blend the main subject into the ground of the image. In the world of photography, a Straight style photographer like Ansel Adams might be more readily associated with a linear painter like Ingres because of the high degree of distinct contours contained in both of their artworks. Meanwhile, Pictorial style photographers like Sarah Moon or Paolo Roversi could find their counterpart in a painterly painter like Delacroix.
 
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geotrupede

New member
I am very glad I asked the question on this forum!
You are all very kind but also know a lot!
A combination that on the www is quite unique :)
I am going to look at the reference you made,
Thank you
G.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Is wide open photography (like summilux / noctilux / etc) only suitable for portraits?

I really like composition and multi story telling of photographers like Alex Webb.
I like a lot Bruce Gilden gritty look.
Koudelka photos.
Etc.
But I cannot find anyone of the same caliber using wide open lenses.
It seems like masters prefer composition and composition for them is possible only by having all in focus.
Is this true?
I really like the selective focus of luminous lenses but I am not clear how to use this beyond the usual cliches or portrait situations.
I am trying to widen my horizon and know a little more, so examples are very much what I am looking for. I am willing to learn.
Any idea where to start from?
Thanks
G>

PS I am not a pro so please excuse it this is a basic question or a clear lack of knowledge. for me photography is just a beloved hobby :)
Aesthetically: As shown by others, perhaps add more art studies beyond photography to grasp how things can be invisioned.

Technically: I tend to favor fast aperture lenses even as ISO performance increases. I like them for the choice they provide. I can stop them down to f/8, but can't open a f/4 lens to f/1.8, f/1.4, f/1.2 or in the case of my Noctilux @ f/0.95.

One need not overly depend on fast apertures to isolate a subject, they also work when shooting more distant subjects where the distance factor increases the depth-of-field. I use my Nocti like this often. 0.95 allows either a faster shutter speed, or a lower ISO. Even with improvements in ISO performance, ISO 200 looks better than ISO 1600 unless you are after less image quality as a creative choice.

- Marc
 

airfrogusmc

Well-known member
Thanks all!!!
This is very interesting.
So pictorialism and soft focus or subject selective focus seems to go back a long way. But then apart very few contemporary examples, it seems like straight photography has become the main stream, something upon which most agree.
Yet there are endless discussion about bokeh and noctiluxes... but seems almost without any relation to what photography has become.
Am I missing something? Or is there a neo pictorialism?
I am very interested in this discussion
G
In the beginning photography was trying to imitate paintings. The first photograph was made in 1826/27 by Niepce and photography starting really becoming popular in the mid to late 1800s. Some historians say that it was the invention of photography that helped fuel Impressionism which really got going in the 1860s. You suddenly had artists like Monet painting they way the felt about things and not trying to make accurate reproductions. Pictorial images were imitating impressionism. For photography to become a legitimate art form it had to stand on it's own by doing what only photography can do and by not imitating another art form.

Adams, Weston Cunningham, and later Bresson and Winogrand all used the things that only a photograph can do and photography became a legitimate art form.

Even if you have an image taken with a shallow DoF if it is taken with a really good lens you will have sharpness and detail that only a camera can produce in the area of focus.

A lot of pictorial images were soft everywhere imitating those paintings that had no real sharp detail.

We are in a new era with digital. It took film photography about a century to find it's voice. I wonder where digital photography will land. It's still an infant.
 
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