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Thread: Congratulations you American People

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    Congratulations you American People

    At the very very worst your new president is charismatic and interesting.

    The world needs charismatic and interesting (at least, I think so).

    Just this guy you know

  2. #2
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Charisma and smooth talk won him the presidency now let's hope that there's some substance there too, I'd hold off on the congratulations for a while until we see what kind of a man we've elected.

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    Senior Member back alley's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    as a yank living in canada i am pleased with this new president so far.

    and yes, congrats to all living in the u.s.a.

    joe

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    It truly was a honor as a American to see some of those barrier walls being torn down today and hopefully a new history and recovery will begin to this nation. I wish him the best and this country the best as we go forward but most of all I do hope to see the world become a better place before i go to sleep for my children and there children.
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    In spite of the challenges ahead, I am optimistic for the first time in many years. The pride and confidence so obvious on the faces of the millions in the crowd is a very, very, welcome change. I myself am proud and wish the new President the very best.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    As an citizen of the United States, I see no need for these imperial shows.

    Just swear them in and get on with business. History will provide any congratulations if they are needed.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    After eight years of the last gentleman and his cronies, I think the American people deserved being able to celebrate and to hear a leader who can not only speak eloquently but gave a hell of a speech. Had I the opportunity, I would have been there too. There's hope on the horizon.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    As an citizen of the United States, I see no need for these imperial shows.

    Just swear them in and get on with business. History will provide any congratulations if they are needed.
    I'm with ya man... gotta prove yourself
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    History will provide any congratulations if they are needed.
    Indeed it will. Nothing wrong with hope either, but I want to see actual results before I get too excited. And if I do see real results -- not just media spin and talking heads saying so -- then you may see me at the front of that congratulations reception line
    Jack
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by back alley View Post
    as a yank living in canada i am pleased with this new president so far.
    Frankly, I expected more. I mean, geez, as of right now he's been President for almost 11 hours, and he still hasn't fixed the economy, brought peace to the Middle East, or sent me an economic stimulus check. What, does he think we've got all day to wait around for him to solve all our problems?!?

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    The last guy sent a stimulus check. Didn't really work out.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It truly was a honor as a American to see some of those barrier walls being torn down today and hopefully a new history and recovery will begin to this nation. I wish him the best and this country the best as we go forward but most of all I do hope to see the world become a better place before i go to sleep for my children and there children.
    On the positive side, I can't do much better than echo your thoughts Guy. I too hope for the best and feel like we've turned a corner in so many ways.

    On a personal note, I'll just add....I'm not sorry to see eight years of Bush-Cheney misrule come to an end. The damage they have done to America and the world is deep.

    Today and forever, they will see the soles of my shoes. Good riddance, I say, good riddance to them all.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    I am from Brooklyn, the "put up or shut up" place.
    -bob

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Geez i have to drive 2 solid days with 2 Republicans in the car to Moab. I need one of two things ear plugs for one or two muzzles. Wait there is a third option a bottle of Hendriks and let you two drive.
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Just to clarify, I'm more politically agnostic -- bred from years of experience watching the political process and a resultant skepticism of politicians in general. What I want to see from ANY politician regardless of party affiliation are results. And when I finally do see some real progress, I'll happily get in line and bang a drum for the person that actually delivered. (And I don't expect to buying a drum anytime soon...)

    What I don't understand is all the fanfare about how great one is BEFORE they've actually done anything...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Geez i have to drive 2 solid days with 2 Republicans in the car to Moab. I need one of two things ear plugs for one or two muzzles. Wait there is a third option a bottle of Hendriks and let you two drive.


    I just hope he is friendly to the small businessman/women which most of us are.....
    Last edited by mwalker; 21st January 2009 at 06:48.
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Agreed Mike. We certainly need a shot in the arm. Have one very long term client that is on such budget restrictions if I get a couple jobs this year from them i would be really lucky. Well today is his first workday and let's see what comes forth in the coming months and years. I think we all have our seat belts on.
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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    What I don't understand is all the fanfare about how great one is BEFORE they've actually done anything...

    Cheers,
    Clearly the promise of change and the reality of actually making it are two separate things. Skepticism is healthy and appropriate.

    However, I think there is a tremendous need for people to recognize when something good happens. And to get some practice at sharing that celebration.

    We've all become experts at identifying the calamities and egregious faults our species is so proficient at displaying. It seems entirely appropriate and altogether necessary that we learn to celebrate when we finally do something right. History will judge President Obama's term at the helm, but today, right now, we can at least take heart in the fact that a black man has been elected to the highest office in the land.

    Millions of people of color in this country and around the world have a new perspective on what is possible. Tremendous human potential has just been unlocked.

    I think that's worthy of some celebration. Outright joy in fact. Aren't we poorer for never allowing ourselves to be inspired? Are we so caught up in identifying the negative that we aren't able to celebrate something positive? There's little enough good news on the planet and it seems downright wasteful to dismiss something of this magnitude in the name of skepticism.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It truly was a honor as a American to see some of those barrier walls being torn down today and hopefully a new history and recovery will begin to this nation. I wish him the best and this country the best as we go forward but most of all I do hope to see the world become a better place before i go to sleep for my children and there children.
    Guy, I feel exactly the same way and couldn't put it any better.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    What I don't understand is all the fanfare about how great one is BEFORE they've actually done anything...
    I remember one day as I was driving while listening to NPR. There was a segment where George Bush gave pre-written comments rather awkwardly. Shortly afterwards, they broadcast Prime Ministerís Questions (House of Commons) with Tony Blair on NPR. The contrast between articulate Tony Blair off the cuff and George Bush from a script was striking.

    Jono's comment, as I understood it, simply points out some good qualities of our new president. It doesn't mean he will be a good president, and I don't think any of us are claiming that he is great! However, having a president who is well spoken, charismatic, and interesting is better than having one that lacks those qualities and really has nothing to do with how great Obama may or may not be.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Jono's comment, as I understood it, simply points out some good qualities of our new president.
    HI Amin
    I was trying to be circumspect, it's not my president, and it's not my country . I was simply congratulating you on having the good judgement to have voted him in!

    But what a change from the 'Im so sorry' website after George Bush's election!

    Tim is so eloquent about such things (great post Tim). Personally I'm pretty ecstatic, a black president who says that every friend of freedom is a friend of America, whatever race or religion sounds like such a welcome change to 'Either you're with us or you're against us'.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Yes We Can!,
    Bob's list of things that would be good to CHANGE.

    1) Stop pandering, yes I know you guys get elected by a voting process, but just because something is popular does not make it good for the country.
    2) Pain and difficult solutions are not always bad. Sometimes it takes hard work and sacrifice to make good
    3) Nothing that costs money or the promise of future money is free.
    4) Start paying the piper now, before the interest accumulates to an untenable level (maybe too late already?)
    5) If someone appears at your doorstep with his hand out, tell him to find a solution for his own problem
    6) Things never go as planned, there are often more unanticipated consequences than you anticipated (DUH)
    7) It is more important to be wise than to be smart
    8) It is more important to do the right thing than to be re-elected
    9) Consider pegging your compensation to the median trailing-year average citizen's income
    10) Understand that your ability to tax is not endless. Remember that in this country, we threw out the last form of government at least partly based on this issue.
    11) Understand that representing all of us means something different than representing the majority.

    I really apologize in advance, I broke my promise to avoid politics and religion.
    -bob

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Congrats on finaly getting rid of that geezer that was in power for 8 years. Wonder if anyone will pay him the same amount Clinton got for doing conferences after he was finnished as President Yah sure ill pay 2000$ to go listen to George Bush speek for 2 hours. Ha ha.

    Also congrats on the new president. He has promissed awfully lot of stuff so hopefully he will fulfill at least half of it. He has a very very heavy job in front of him, and lots of pressure on his shoulders.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Five View Post
    Congrats on finaly getting rid of that geezer that was in power for 8 years. Wonder if anyone will pay him the same amount Clinton got for doing conferences after he was finnished as President Yah sure ill pay 2000$ to go listen to George Bush speek for 2 hours. Ha ha.

    Also congrats on the new president. He has promissed awfully lot of stuff so hopefully he will fulfill at least half of it. He has a very very heavy job in front of him, and lots of pressure on his shoulders.
    Sure they will pay. That's the way the system works. Now is when he can collect on favors without any conflict of interest. There's not a dime's worth of difference in any of them. I just wish the Damnyankee wasn't coming back to Texas. Let him go back to his birthplace, Connecticut.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Amin
    I was trying to be circumspect, it's not my president, and it's not my country . I was simply congratulating you on having the good judgement to have voted him in!

    But what a change from the 'Im so sorry' website after George Bush's election!

    Tim is so eloquent about such things (great post Tim). Personally I'm pretty ecstatic, a black president who says that every friend of freedom is a friend of America, whatever race or religion sounds like such a welcome change to 'Either you're with us or you're against us'.
    I agree with all of that, Jono. I am happy to see so many Americans so proud, motivated, and full of hope. Proud that our nation has elected a black president. Encouraged that our president seems to have a more thoughtful and open approach to foreign relations. Relieved that we now have a well spoken president.

    The point of my previous post was simply to point out that - despite the fact that you, Guy, Tim, myself, and others find reason for celebration and hope in this moment - it doesn't mean that we are congratulating Obama for being a great president. Somehow, several folks in this thread seem to have gotten this idea.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    I have privately communicated my thoughts to those who were deeply affected by the profound changes.

    Yesterday, i found out that the fumbled oath (however simple it is) was not even needed (and could even be technically wrong) as he was already the president at that time. He was not a senator at that time, either.

    When would the TV news personalities understand that all democracies (nothing unique about the US, though it is the oldest democracy) transfer power peacefully and not via a Guillotine!

    Book publishing, lecture tours, aren't they other terms for money laundering?

    Corruption, bribery, etc they are all everywhere under different names.

    Let us hope for the better though!

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Not one to ever be politically involved, I still see this entire event in historical perspective. As a country, the US has somewhat done what Bob suggests....they "put up" and took a very bold step. That should be cause for its own celebration. We all know that there will be plenty of time and instances for harsh scrutiny, and yes, the new administration will not get everything correct, nor done timely enough for some, nor pleasing all parties, etc., etc. That is to be expected, and folks will just have to learn to deal with things. Heck, we suffered through eight tortuous, costly, and nearly isolationist policies for eight years, that cannot be too tough an act to follow by comparison ;-)

    I started thinking about our perspectives and analyses of this much like we collectively approach photography at times.....we spend a lot of time pixel peeping and sometimes missing the perspective of the picture as a whole. While some details are important, one should never lose sight of the larger image and its value. Right now, I am enjoying the entire first glimpses of the work, and will let others mire in the blurred corners or slightly oversharpened details.

    This is the first time in my life that I can recall so many folks actually being engaged and excited, especially during a time in history that is so grim and perilous, so I think it good that there has been a celebration, and also know that the work has started to right this ship. Living in Texas (was not born here, but got here as fast as I could), I somewhat share John's comments, but rather than suggesting Bush stay "up north", I was thinking more of Elba ;-)

    LJ

  28. #28
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Just to clarify, I'm more politically agnostic -- bred from years of experience watching the political process and a resultant skepticism of politicians in general. What I want to see from ANY politician regardless of party affiliation are results. And when I finally do see some real progress, I'll happily get in line and bang a drum for the person that actually delivered. (And I don't expect to buying a drum anytime soon...)

    What I don't understand is all the fanfare about how great one is BEFORE they've actually done anything...

    Cheers,
    I'm on the same page as you Jack, I want to see something from the man before canonizing him. Certainly there's nothing in his past that's glorious and his choice of secretary of state makes the mind boggle when you think how many millions of dollars Billy Boy has received and is still getting from the arabs! In any case I wish him all the best and hope that he lives up to at least half of his worshipper's expectations. Look at it this way, we didn't have any choice but to vote for him, Mr. Maverick wasn't happening and who know knows he might prove us skeptics wrong.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    I don't know, hope doesn't do much for me. It's nice to have a good speaker, but it would be doubly nice to have no vagueness. Let's not lose substance in favor of style.

    And yes, I'm down on all politicians, they are all the same as johnastovall says. It's the slick talkers that actually scare me most. That said, I wish him and his staff all the best and will 'hope' they make all the right decisions...

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Sure they will pay. That's the way the system works. Now is when he can collect on favors without any conflict of interest. There's not a dime's worth of difference in any of them. I just wish the Damnyankee wasn't coming back to Texas. Let him go back to his birthplace, Connecticut.
    Maybe the role as the village idiot is already taken there

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    Workshop Member MikeScecina's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Thanks anyway, Jono, but I celebrate bold, steadfast leadership in a President, not charismatic vacuity. We will see.

  32. #32
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Tim ,you get my vote,well said,with you 100%.Hes made quite a stir in europe and thats not easy for something american,you should all be proud of yourselves.I think the american people have gained the respect of the world, america itself has a way to go.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeScecina View Post
    Thanks anyway, Jono, but I celebrate bold, steadfast leadership in a President, not charismatic vacuity. We will see.
    Bold and steadfast are good qualities, but in themselves do not make for a good president. Most Americans would probably say that George W. Bush was bold and steadfast, yet few would want another president like him.

    Charisma, also insufficient to make a good president, is nevertheless a good quality which Obama has shown. Vacuity has not been established. At a time when Americans ought to stand together in facing severe challenges, it is beyond me why you would assume that our newly elected president is vacuous.
    Last edited by Amin; 21st January 2009 at 10:46.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    I'll take vagueness over lying anytime. Maybe Obama will turn out to be a "compassionate conservative."

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Tim ,you get my vote,well said,with you 100%.Hes made quite a stir in europe and thats not easy for something american,you should all be proud of yourselves.I think the american people have gained the respect of the world, america itself has a way to go.
    Europeans didn't have to live under George Bush and they won't have to live under Obama. Frankly, I would rather live in Europe than in the United States regardless of the president.

    I think sometime in the 1960's we started to fulfilled Mencken goal for democracy and have enhanced it every election since then.

    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    I'm on the same page as you Jack, I want to see something from the man before canonizing him. Certainly there's nothing in his past that's glorious and his choice of secretary of state makes the mind boggle when you think how many millions of dollars Billy Boy has received and is still getting from the arabs! In any case I wish him all the best and hope that he lives up to at least half of his worshipper's expectations. Look at it this way, we didn't have any choice but to vote for him, Mr. Maverick wasn't happening and who know knows he might prove us skeptics wrong.
    We had lots of choices, don't vote for a president (my choice) or vote for one of the third party canidates. To simply vote for the lessor of evils is still evil. When I want to vote for evil, I want Cthulhu on the ballot.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Hmm...IMHO neither of the options were good choices. The new resident of 1600 Penn was shown to be a prevaricator during the election just like all the rest of 'em.

    I 'hope' they have the 'vision' to get out of the way and let the people prosper. Government has a history: it doesn't solve problems, it's more likely to make them worse.

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    Re: Congratulations you American People


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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Hmm...IMHO neither of the options were good choices. The new resident of 1600 Penn was shown to be a prevaricator during the election just like all the rest of 'em.

    I 'hope' they have the 'vision' to get out of the way and let the people prosper. Government has a history: it doesn't solve problems, it's more likely to make them worse.
    Government should keep you between the ditches, not drive the car.

    I'm off to the 24 hours of Daytona , see if they can keep em between the ditches...I'll post some shots.......
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Clearly the promise of change and the reality of actually making it are two separate things. Skepticism is healthy and appropriate.

    However, I think there is a tremendous need for people to recognize when something good happens. And to get some practice at sharing that celebration.

    We've all become experts at identifying the calamities and egregious faults our species is so proficient at displaying. It seems entirely appropriate and altogether necessary that we learn to celebrate when we finally do something right. History will judge President Obama's term at the helm, but today, right now, we can at least take heart in the fact that a black man has been elected to the highest office in the land.

    Millions of people of color in this country and around the world have a new perspective on what is possible. Tremendous human potential has just been unlocked.

    I think that's worthy of some celebration. Outright joy in fact. Aren't we poorer for never allowing ourselves to be inspired? Are we so caught up in identifying the negative that we aren't able to celebrate something positive? There's little enough good news on the planet and it seems downright wasteful to dismiss something of this magnitude in the name of skepticism.
    I couldn't agree more. Electing Barack Obama as president, of person of mixed white/black racial heritage (who many Americans just consider to be a "black" person) is a monumental change for America and worthy of celebration. The reality of America is far different from the "white bread" view many Americans still have of our country. Barack Obama clearly understands and celebrates the diversity of the ethnic, religious, racial, national and political backgrounds and views that is the American people. That alone is reason to celebrate and in my view, be hopeful for the future.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Last edited by bensonga; 21st January 2009 at 13:56.

  41. #41
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeScecina View Post
    I celebrate bold, steadfast leadership in a President....
    Yes, that would be Bush and Cheney (and let us not forget Rumsfeld). They were bold. They were steadfast.

    They also violated fundamental principles of the American constitution.

    They should have been impeached, convicted and thrown out of office long ago.

    If there was any REAL justice in this world, they would be tried as war criminals for violating the Geneva conventions against torture, convicted and spend the rest of their days in prison.

    They are gone, but they will not be forgotten.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

  42. #42
    ddk
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I couldn't agree more. Electing Barack Obama as president, of person of mixed white/black racial heritage (who many Americans just consider to be a "black" person) is a monumental change for America and worthy of celebration. The reality of America is far different from the "white bread" view many Americans still have of our country.....and Barack Obama clearly understands and celebrates the diversity of the ethnic, religious, racial, national and political backgrounds and views that is the American people. That alone is reason to celebrate and in my view, be hopeful for the future.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    That might be something new for you Gary in Alaska but its nothing new here to us in NY. The way I see it the color of the man shouldn't make a difference either way rather its his character that we should question or celebrate!

  43. #43
    dlew308
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Even with a new president, we still have the same crappy congress and the above the law Feds running a muck. Hope for change...well I hope to win the lotto keep the change....


    Ok I'm done else I'll rant on for days



  44. #44
    ddk
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post

    If there was any REAL justice in this world, they would be tried as war criminals for violating the Geneva conventions against torture, convicted and spend the rest of their days in prison.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Please, get real!

  45. #45
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    That might be something new for you Gary in Alaska but its nothing new here to us in NY. The way I see it the color of the man shouldn't make a difference either way rather its his character that we should question or celebrate!
    Exactly my point and while YOU may have been able to look past the color of a person's skin for many years, I would say that the country as a whole has not.

    For America as a whole to have reached the point were we could look beyond a person's African-American lineage and elect that person as president based upon their perceived character and abilities.....that is a monumental change in this country and reason for all of us to be proud, whether a person voted for Obama or not.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Last edited by bensonga; 21st January 2009 at 14:26.

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    Subscriber Member mwalker's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Yes, that would be Bush and Cheney (and let us not forget Rumsfeld). They were bold. They were steadfast.

    They also violated fundamental principles of the American constitution.

    They should have been impeached, convicted and thrown out of office long ago.

    If there was any REAL justice in this world, they would be tried as war criminals for violating the Geneva conventions against torture, convicted and spend the rest of their days in prison.

    They are gone, but they will not be forgotten.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Plezzz ...............Can you see Russia?
    Mike

    website under construction

  47. #47
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Please, get real!
    I am VERY serious....but I can see that you don't take these violations of human rights and the Geneva conventions very seriously at all. Well, I guess you would have no objection to Americans who were SUSPECTED of being subversives, terrorists, agents of the CIA etc of being tortured by foreign governments either then.

    It's a slippery slope....one that I never thought our government would so openly walk down....and why so many people in the US military, Justice department etc were opposed to the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld doctrines on torture.

    The reality is that Bush and Cheney will likely never be held to account. But Rumsfeld and others who participated in creating the policies that led to this are at much greater risk of arrest and prosecution. I'm quite sure they will be very careful about where they travel outside of the USA in the future.

    Gary

  48. #48
    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by mwalker View Post
    Plezzz ...............Can you see Russia?
    No, that's only our wonderful Governor...the lovely and brainless Sarah Palin.

    Thank god for Tina Fey.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska....not far from Sarah's home town.

  49. #49
    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Yes, that would be Bush and Cheney (and let us not forget Rumsfeld). They were bold. They were steadfast.

    They also violated fundamental principles of the American constitution.

    They should have been impeached, convicted and thrown out of office long ago.

    If there was any REAL justice in this world, they would be tried as war criminals for violating the Geneva conventions against torture, convicted and spend the rest of their days in prison.

    They are gone, but they will not be forgotten.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Gary can you name any president since FDR who hasn't violate the Constitution? I can't.

    If we are going to start trying war criminals, it's going to be a long docket. I assume you'll add in the North Vietnamese, most of sub-shara africa and all the usual suspects?

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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  50. #50
    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: Congratulations you American People

    Well I have to agree with Tim in his Exhuberance
    AND
    Gary with regard to Human Rights Violations & Geneva Convention Rules
    Perhaps George & Dick should have a Taste of Guantanamo before it gets closed down....
    Last edited by helenhill; 21st January 2009 at 14:35.

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