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Thread: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    There was/is a small storm in a teacup going on over in the Sony A7/A7r picture thread due to one person apparently taking exception to a photograph of a working mechanic's garage that happened to have a very common and usual pinup calendar on the wall. Think Pirelli calendar but admittedly with an image of a topless model with bare breasts on it.

    So, when does environmental exposure of a topless woman on the wall become NSFW? What about shooting scenes of sculptures in pretty much any old european, latin american or asian cultures? Would you censor a shot that included Michelangelo's David statue in the background? Do we need to run around sticking fig leaves and coveralls over our artwork?

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 27th August 2014 at 12:13.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    "sensor a shot"

    Wonderful double meaning!

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Damned spell checker ... or just spending too long in photo forums (or for some, fora)

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Nudity is a fundamental facet of art, going back to its very beginnings in human history.
    Some of the very earliest effigies discovered have been of nude humans, both male and female.

    In the US, freedom of expression is guaranteed by the Constitution.

    Freedom from offense is NOT guaranteed by the Constitution.

    Those who have a problem with nudity should take their business elsewhere.
    They won't be missed.

    I checked the GetDPI policies, and found no mention of nudity.

    A couple of other fora I frequent state that nudity can appear anywhere on the site, as a warning to those who might be bothered.
    While it's "nice" to mark such as NSFW, that is not required.

    You realize that if we disallow anything that anyone finds objectionable, pretty soon we won't even be able to post photos of blank pieces of paper?

    A good example of this is the fact that I absolutely abhor snow. I think all photos showing snow should be absolutely banned forever.

    On edit:
    Please note the third photo in this post in the Street thread: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/393440-post4.html
    In case that one gets deleted I saved a copy to my site: http://www.atwaterkent.info/Images/G...20110606-L.jpg

    It quite clearly shows a nude male full frontal, penis and all.

    At what point do we censor street scenes?

    - Leigh
    Last edited by Leigh; 27th August 2014 at 16:16.

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    Nudity is a fundamental facet of art, going back to its very beginnings in human history.

    I checked the GetDPI policies, and found no mention of nudity.

    A couple of other fora I frequent state that nudity can appear anywhere on the site, as a warning to those who might be bothered.
    While it's "nice" to mark such as NSFW, that is not required.

    You realize that if we disallow anything that anyone finds objectionable, pretty soon we won't even be able to post photos of blank pieces of paper?

    A good example of this is the fact that I absolutely abhor snow. I think all photos showing show should be absolutely banned forever.


    - Leigh

    Couple of points...just my opinion.

    This is truly a tempest in a teapot...

    It is hard for me to defend a fairly derivative picture which was taken to show the contextual presence of a Goddess amongst the unwashed...which is why those pictures and calendars did so well in garages...the sight of it brought back great memories from my childhood. Smell of gasoline and petroleum lubricants, dirt everywhere, soda dispenser and the picture/calendar which was so out of place. It was as if everyone acknowledged their desire for another existence.

    However, the policy to label things as NSFW says nothing about the "artistic merit" of a work...it just allows those of us with families and responsibilities to not offend those who may be around us. Work/home/family viewpoint may be radically different than that you or I possess.

    Full disclosure...as a physician I have view "Nekked" bodies for decades but most of them are at a point of vulnerability and age that necessitates a graceful blessing of acceptance and invisibility.

    GETDPI has provided a thread to accommodate those who have an interest in Nudes and "Artful" pictures...throwing these in the face of those shy individuals who would prefer a bit of circumspection with regards to what they face daily may be a bit over the top/inappropriate.

    My daughter is a Professor of Art History in a small Christian University and she daily has to make decisions concerning the artistic merit of a work and its appropriateness for her workplace...and her degree is from Oxford University...

    So the short version is this...respect the sensibilities of those most shy in your environs ... protect their desire for a "safe place" and use those tools provided by Jack/Guy/Bob/Cindy to show your best works....

    Really guys I have seen and cared for things that would make your worst nightmares seem tame....

    Regards,

    Bob

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    The funny thing about this micro-storm to me is that it's a picture of a poster hanging on the wall amidst a bunch of technical junk. It's not even a picture including a real person standing there with her boobs hanging out.

    If you find that offensive, put on a blindfold on your kids when you walk by a magazine rack.

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    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    A poster of a pinup girl on a mechanics wall? Who would have thunk it. I guess this is as deep as the thickness of your skin or as large as the shelter of your life. From what I understand, women have always had boobs. This is no secret.

    I guess I draw the line between someone taking offense and someone giving it. There is plenty of photography I do not enjoy, but I figure that is my problem and not everyone feels the same (otherwise that photography would not exist). As long as the photography is not exploitive, child pornography, for example, it would not bother me. I think if the image is over sexualized, members seem to tag that with a NSFW. But if just nudity, I don't see the big deal--we all have bodies and I do not feel the need to shower with the lights off.

    We have an odd culture that has no problem with graphic violence, but sex...

    ...and where would we be without that?
    Last edited by Shashin; 27th August 2014 at 20:24.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    I just went to check the original. Apparently, I am too late and it has been sensored. I guess the only thing I can say is we are in an international community. The values of one society can seem rude to another, and, in this case, it could cut both ways.

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I just went to check the original. Apparently, I am too late and it has been sensored.
    Here's the original image on Flickr:
    https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3896/...0a32dfde_h.jpg

    - Leigh

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    How about this one from the Fun with the Pentax K5 thread?
    Sculpture with bare breasts and apparently uncovered pudenda: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/596787-post2631.html
    Image archived here: http://www.atwaterkent.info/Images/G...3745-P1650.jpg

    - Leigh

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Well sure, you can find plenty of examples here if you look. I could post some tourist images of copulating statues completely covering a Hindu temple, but whilst I didn't agree with the OP in the Sony thread, I do believe that there is a line somewhere for an open forum. Now how and where to define that line is the struggle I believe.

    As the colloquial saying of Justice Potter Stewart about pornography goes, it's almost impossible to accurately define but "I know it when I see it".

    I used to like the feature on Photosig forum where you could label images that might, MIGHT, offend and the forum software would show a grey image with a link to click to view. I like that approach because it's not censorship or unnecessarily prudish and allows for images to be posted with a common thread vs having to label and publish out in the separate adults only anorak forum thread (just kidding btw!!).
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 28th August 2014 at 14:36.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Morning

    I read the posts as they were developing and it was interesting to see. The original complaint may have been valid, it wasn't about the image itself, more about the fact that it wasn't labeled as having nudity and could cause issues with viewing it from work, certainly a valid point for him and I should think many others.

    The issue soon became about how he dealt with it, the aggression meant that people were responding to this rather than the point he was making, which was quickly lost, shame really. Ironically, if he'd simply been polite and less outraged, explained his point and asked for opinion from others, it may have been a decent discussion and I'm sure the poster of the image would have been happy to remove or adjust it. Aggression gets you nowhere, demanding respect often has the opposite affect, people will always respond appropriately to your tone, as was the case this time.

    My own personal opinion is that viewing anything to do with art/photography at work and not expecting to see something challenging or at odds with your beliefs is daft, complaining about it is even more daft. I think watching videos of a 9 year old on BBC news handling an Uzi, a split second before she accidentally shoots her instructor is far far more disturbing than this photograph but each to their own!

    Have a good day

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I just went to check the original. Apparently, I am too late and it has been sensored. I guess the only thing I can say is we are in an international community. The values of one society can seem rude to another, and, in this case, it could cut both ways.
    The original image is still there, but way back in the thread : page 50, message nr 2481. The moderators have decided to keep it up.

    And like you : I'm much more offended by violence than by nudity.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    there is an irony in the NSFW concept (at least in name) in that the onus seems to be not about viewing the image but about being caught viewing the image.
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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    All the photography forums that I visited I would describe as a "virtual vernissage", hence it may be private, but is mostly public, sadly though, just without canapés and wine.

    A thread titled: Fun with the xyz series is giving a clear direction that this can get somewhat lighthearted and is not to be taken too serious.

    Someone complaining about content with a Fist-On-Table attitude, pointing to rules, decency, respect and last not least law should trigger your suspicion before anything else.

    I observed this phenomenon over the years increasingly in many aspects of life, from the internet to schools to workplaces.

    A single person demands immediate change for a group, referring to:
    a) his/her religion
    b) his/her moral standards
    c) decency/rules/law

    I am all for tolerance but:

    a) Should be a private matter and secular
    b) This ain't Kubrick's "Clockwork Orange", no one is forced to look at it
    c) Is all a matter of Zeitgeist and subject to change

    In my book there is one important term missing here, liberty. All of us make moral judgements, daily, but if we add that much required dose of liberty into the mix, it makes things easier to exercise tolerance.

    What that means practically for me is simple. If I enter a room where an object is on display that I strongly dislike for any of the above reasons, I turn around and leave. No one forces me Kubrick style to watch it and stay.

    That is at my liberty now, and for damn sure I want that liberty to be within my decision! Neither do I need someone to force me to look at it, nor do I need someone to remove it for me.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    I think the question then becomes, are others allowed the liberty to not view nudity without having to resort to stopping all viewing and participation in open image threads or indeed leave the forum? Is the tolerance and choice to only flow one way or are they also allowed the choice not to view, without of course in any way handicapping those who would like to post such images or view them? Is a four letter warning such a big deal to allow choice? Or is the only choice 'my way or the highway' as proposed above by a poster when he wrote this?

    Those who have a problem with nudity should take their business elsewhere.
    They won't be missed.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Of course you have the option of not viewing any image on the site.

    If you don't like an image, hit the Page Down button and it's gone.

    That is certainly your prerogative, and nobody has suggested otherwise.

    I do the same with all images that I dislike, dead animals and snow being two at the top of my list.

    - Leigh

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    So as I said, if I do not want to view nudity, period, I have to keep out of imaging threads on the site. That is the only 'choice' I have. I have the 'liberty' to not participate in or view any image threads at all. All for the lack of 4 letters which in no way whatsoever stop any one from viewing the images if they so choose.

    Or perhaps as you suggest I won't be missed for wishing for the choice that I have had on every other major photo forum I have participated on during over a decade as a photographer on the web.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    It is absolutely NOT the only choice you have.

    It's the only choice you choose to have. That's entirely your decision.

    How is it that you feel empowered to inconvenience every member of this board to take specific actions to accommodate your religious beliefs?
    You absolutely do not have that right.

    - Leigh
    Last edited by Leigh; 28th August 2014 at 07:05.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    So as I said, if I do not want to view nudity, period, I have to keep out of imaging threads on the site. That is the only 'choice' I have. I have the 'liberty' to not participate in or view any image threads at all. All for the lack of 4 letters which in no way whatsoever stop any one from viewing the images if they so choose.

    Or perhaps as you suggest I won't be missed for wishing for the choice that I have had on every other major photo forum I have participated on during over a decade as a photographer on the web.
    But there are different ways of looking at a picture.. If with the corner of the eye you detect something you don't want to see, you can just scroll down further : no one is forcing you to peep at it until all details become clear. No one is forcing you to look at this picture in an active way and indulge in its contemplation.

    This is making much a do about nothing : all the more so that this was the only picture showing some nudity (that wasn't even the main subject) that I have encountered in this thread since it started several months ago. If you can't take it, then may be this isn't the right website for you.

    During these past two months, almost each evening at the news, I had to hide my eyes from the TV screen, not wanting to see more of the plight of the people in Gaza.. That violence yes was unbearable. Still, I'm not complaining to the tv authorities, because that is part of a reality we have to know about.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Empowered? Rights? All I ever did was ask. You however with your 338 posts believe that you have the right to tell me to leave and that I will not be missed. That you have the right to deny the choice on this forum for those with differing views to yourself to be able to view any image threads or betray their beliefs and ethics.

    I'm out of here. Been here for 6 years and with 2600+ plus posts which I believe have been to help and share in a wonderful atmosphere of respect and tolerance. It is obvious now however that various members here do not wish to offer the choice for those with different beliefs than themselves to enable them to protect themselves from what they do not wish to see. That typing 4 letters is too much. So be it. There are other photo forums where they respect others beliefs enough to offer choice, pretty much all of them in fact. Where there is tolerance for others beliefs not just for the belief of overriding freedom from any responsibility to others.

    It's been a happy 6 years GetDPI. I'm really sorry to go. I'll miss a lot of very good people who have been a wonderful support and help during the years.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    But there are different ways of looking at a picture.. If with the corner of the eye you detect something you don't want to see, you can just scroll down further : no one is forcing you to peep at it until all details become clear. No one is forcing you to look at this picture in an active way and indulge in its contemplation.

    This is making much a do about nothing : all the more so that this was the only picture showing some nudity (that wasn't even the main subject) that I have encountered in this thread since it started several months ago. If you can't take it, then may be this isn't the right website for you.

    During these past two months, almost each evening at the news, I had to hide my eyes from the TV screen, not wanting to see more of the plight of the people in Gaza.. That violence yes was unbearable. Still, I'm not complaining to the tv authorities, because that is part of a reality we have to know about.
    Political jibes now as well? I'm so out of here.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    This forum has contributors from many ethnic and religious groups, the idea that everything posted would need to cover everyones individual belief or desire would be tricky to deal with. Should we demand no women unless their faces are covered, no homosexual couples, no nudity male or female, no single parents or children born out of wedlock and definitely none of those things placed in a snowy scene! These are all things that different groups, societies find offensive. I quite like all those things, they add to the variety that is life, something as photographers I feel it's our duty to record and document.

    I understand your viewpoint Ben but you do have a choice for sure and I'd suggest that common sense should dictate a collective standard that allows the majority to feel free to show what they feel comfortable with. The choice is to accept that you may at some point see something you don't like, ultimately what happens when you see something with nudity in it? You feel a bit bad and switch it off? It's not like your life will never be the same is it?

    These are just my views, I've been around a bit and so maybe I see things in a different way, there are lots of fantastic shots of life on the streets in the Leica thread, many show naked children or semiclothed adults, a social documentary and incredibly important for it, maybe every picture posted should be labeled NSFW just to be sure that someone isn't going to be offended by it?
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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I think the question then becomes, are others allowed the liberty to not view nudity without having to resort to stopping all viewing and participation in open image threads or indeed leave the forum? Is the tolerance and choice to only flow one way or are they also allowed the choice not to view, without of course in any way handicapping those who would like to post such images or view them? Is a four letter warning such a big deal to allow choice? Or is the only choice 'my way or the highway' as proposed above by a poster when he wrote this?
    Dear Ben,

    while I do understand your argument, I would state that we arrived in the year 2014, or 5774, or whatever time one would prefer to describe the time we live in, and by that I mean that it can not be reasonably expected anymore that people are being sheltered from aspects of life that took many generations to reach a certain level of acceptance today.

    The history from all cultures concerning women in particular is full of pain, agony and most severe oppression. We still have such cultures around unfortunately, but since the 60s many western cultures changed their views and more important behaviour and understanding towards women. We are not there yet, but we made some progress into the right direction in my view.

    But let me be even more specific by using a different example. Say I would be member of a religion that sees unfit to see pictures of war and forbids their members to ever look at such pictures under any circumstances.

    Well, here is the crux, such can be described as "draconic" and if I want to stay on the ball with the latest developments and read papers or watch news etc. it is impossible to avoid pictures of war for me, so I could argue that this would put me into "conflict" with my religious leaders and views. But this is my private matter, it is my belief system that I chose and this is private and this should stay private.

    Now seriosuly, can I expect that wherever I come, people are to stash away the NYT or switch out the TV because I am of that religious order and demand that I am to be respected in my views?

    No way! This is going too far and this is what I would call utterly unreasonable by the very definition of it's term to put it mildly, putting it not so mildly, I'd call that ideologically motivated imperialism.

    Having said that Ben, and as strange as you might find it now, and albeit we are diametrically opposed in many views, I do respect your views, but will never let them cut down my liberties or way of life.

    Best
    Georg
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    ... and definitely none of those things placed in a snowy scene!
    Thank you, Mat.

    I feel so empowered That makes my day.

    - Leigh

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    You're welcome Leigh, I live in the arctic though to I shall post all my future photographs as NSFW just so you aren't at risk!

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    You're welcome Leigh, I live in the arctic though to I shall post all my future photographs as NSFW just so you aren't at risk!
    I believe NSFY, as in Not Suitable For You, would be more appropriate. Thanks.

    Hmmm... I've never thought of Iraq as arctic, but since I've never been there, perhaps ... ;-)

    - Leigh

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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    During these past two months, almost each evening at the news, I had to hide my eyes from the TV screen, not wanting to see more of the plight of the people in Gaza.. That violence yes was unbearable. Still, I'm not complaining to the tv authorities, because that is part of a reality we have to know about.

    Well by hiding your eye you must have missed (it is just a few hundred miles from Gaza) - or maybe so horrified that you were speechless - that you felt Gaza was the appropriate barb to throw.

    In its report, the UN mission to Iraq says at least 5,576 civilians were killed and another 11,665 wounded from 1 January until the end of June. Another 1.2 million have been driven from their homes by the violence, it adds.
    Quote from the Guardian

    Or

    For the first time since 2013, the UN released an update on the death toll from the Syrian civil war on Aug. 22, saying that at least 191,369 people died between March 2011 to April 2014. The new number includes deaths from before June 2013, when the UN said at the time that the death toll had passed 92,000.

    But we are wandering far afield here, when this all about a shot of a stereotype "gas station" or machine shop allot of us grew up with.

    Cheap shots are terrible either coming from the camera or a post.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Empowered? Rights? All I ever did was ask. You however with your 338 posts believe that you have the right to tell me to leave and that I will not be missed. That you have the right to deny the choice on this forum for those with differing views to yourself to be able to view any image threads or betray their beliefs and ethics.

    I'm out of here. Been here for 6 years and with 2600+ plus posts which I believe have been to help and share in a wonderful atmosphere of respect and tolerance. It is obvious now however that various members here do not wish to offer the choice for those with different beliefs than themselves to enable them to protect themselves from what they do not wish to see. That typing 4 letters is too much. So be it. There are other photo forums where they respect others beliefs enough to offer choice, pretty much all of theum in fact. Where there is tolerance for others beliefs not just for the belief of overriding freedom from any responsibility to others.

    It's been a happy 6 years GetDPI. I'm really sorry to go. I'll miss a lot of very good people who have been a wonderful support and help during the years.
    I think that you are loosing the sense of proportionality : for a single picture, that wasn't showing complete nudity, nor was the main subject, you want the owners of this list to undertake complex programming modifications to the software, or you are going yo leave a website you like ? Common, this isn't very serious.

    And yes, I have some difficulties to understand people having very rigid religious principles when it comes to nudity or human relationships, yet accepting violence without restraint, or xenophobia, etc. on the other hand; I find this hypocrite (whoever they are : from the tea party conservatives in the US or the ultra-orthodoxes Jews, or the catholic conservatives, or the shameful xenophobe and conservative parties we see emerging here in Europe).
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    The Sunset bar was created for more open topics. But we still have very heavy policy on insults and attacks on other members. To be honest the mods have a hair trigger on bad behavior in this area. Please accept others opinions and views on a global level and far more important respect these differences. We are all welcome here and we as mods really hate to lay policy down and worse have to enforce it.

    Please keep it friendly
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member W.Utsch's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Ben, if you are still there, what would you do if you bring your car to Primos Garage (the place of the shot) and enter the room?

    There is no protection to be exposed, that IS life.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    it must be near impossible to avoid seeing nudity/partial nudity in today's world without living in some sort of bubble.
    museums, newspapers, magazines, (esp. the venerable Nat. Geographic), the beach in france, fashion runways, television (radio maybe excepted ).

    unfortunately same can be said for violence, guns n' ammo, violent video games, sexual harassment in the military, bombing of civilians and soldiers, war, etc. yet we don't see an outrage about that being displayed.

    i also find it regrettable that one would choose to depart rather than self-censor what they find here on the forum and yet apparently live with what is all around them in the world, content not withstanding
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    There was/is a small storm in a teacup going on over in the Sony A7/A7r picture thread due to one person apparently taking exception to a photograph of a working mechanic's garage that happened to have a very common and usual pinup calendar on the wall. Think Pirelli calendar but admittedly with an image of a topless model with bare breasts on it.

    So, when does environmental exposure of a topless woman on the wall become NSFW? What about shooting scenes of sculptures in pretty much any old european, latin american or asian cultures? Would you censor a shot that included Michelangelo's David statue in the background? Do we need to run around sticking fig leaves and coveralls over our artwork?

    Thoughts?
    Well, as we have witnessed, the Tempest has grown to at least Tropical Storm levels … whether the teapot can contain it remains to be seen

    I think that morality is a pretty elastic concept … strict religious evangelists managed to destroy a good deal of native art in an ill conceived attempt to save souls … then it became collector's works worthy of museum display.

    Art is full of murder, rape, betrayal, incest … sometimes all in one work of literature or art.

    Consider "Leda and the Swan". The Yeats sonnet is considered one of the most masterful poems ever written in the English language. It is packed with betrayal, trickery, cuckholdery, violent rape and graphic sexuality, not to mention the resulting birth of the illegitmate Helen of Troy.

    Now we have an overdose of "Housewives Of (insert city), that depicts horrible people, acting horribly.

    Or Victoria Secret models of uncertain age strutting or lounging around the TV screen that is every adolescent boy's wet dream come true.

    Then Miley Cyrus ups the ante by lowering the wreaking ball on social norms.

    The cliche' "Calendar Breasts" in a mechanic's place of work sort of pales in comparison.

    Then again, it only takes a second to recognize that what may be acceptable to me or you, may not be to others. NSFW isn't all that hard to type in. Hell, it may assure more views than without it …

    - Marc
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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by W.Utsch View Post
    Ben, if you are still there, what would you do if you bring your car to Primos Garage (the place of the shot) and enter the room?

    There is no protection to be exposed, that IS life.
    Yes, it is, and there is more to that. This is not adressed at Zoran or Ben at all, but is a general observation on a global level instead.

    What is life as well are strong social reactionary tendencies, take Turkey just for example. But let me explain that term first, to avoid misunderstandings on such a complex subject. As reactionary I would describe actions to reintroduce or hang on to social structures or events that are no longer existant and belong into the past.

    Now, this can have a humorous and rather harmless quality, like those chaps in the US and elsewhere who design their entire life and lifestyle according to the 50s, in a way pretending we do live still in the 50s.

    Then there are others that are not so humorous.

    Turkey has made a lot of steps back in time and imposes values and social structures again on it's people that we thought were long overcome. That goes from demanding women wearing a head scarf in public again to massive internet censorship, breaking up secular structures, and violent oppression of opposition.

    That is but one example of many where reactionary tendencies can be observed all over the world, and in my view this is not a healthy development.

    x x x x

    Tolerance can not be achieved without acceptance, accpeting different views means not that I impose my view onto others, but rather accept that my views differ from others, and on an international stage like this forum here, it would be unacceptable to impose religious or by any moral standards motivated views on others by placing such demands, or in other words, I refuse to be made the guardian of others beliefs or values by force, by coming along camouflaged as respect and decency.

    Live and let live.

    You feel like something is not what you want to see, scroll down or leave the thread. Easy.
    Last edited by Georg Baumann; 28th August 2014 at 09:51.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Now we're getting somewhere: in the interest of "freedom," we reject tolerance, and apparently drive away one of the most respected members of the forum.

    The First Amendment, of course, has little or no application here. GetDPI can draft rules that limit the speech "rights" of its members. The First Amendment protects us from government censorship. "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, ...."
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    I'm really upset about driving members away . That should never happen here. Someone needs to send him a note and apologize. At least in my eyes
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  37. #37
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    How do I determine whether what I post is not safe for you, or not safe for your workplace, or conversely what IS safe for you, and your workplace? Can't you just decide that for yourself? Why do you (speaking in the collective) have to define that for everyone?

    This is kind of why I said in some other thread that in 100 years art historians will wonder what happened to the photographic record of this time—"for a twenty year stretch, all we have is pictures of rocks, cats, and flowers. No children, no hunky young men, no voluptuous nudes, no people on the street, no buildings, airports, homes, offices, no decisive moments ... "

    Do not participate in the cloistering of photography. If people are foolish enough to go to a photography site and look at pictures, they should accept the responsibility of looking at, and inadvertently allowing others to see, some things they may not like. Period.

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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  38. #38
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    I was not offended by Werner's picture personally (not too much actually shakes me up whether it's dead bodies, nude bodies, or whatever really... I've seen some really messed up things first hand in my life) but again I can respect if someone was. I have no intentions leaving GetDPI at all but I don't like to see long time contributing members go or to feel disrespected.

    While everyone is arguing hypothetical situations of "if you stumbled across this on accident" or using "freedom of speech/ expression" rhetoric the reality is that a couple of people voiced real concerns about things internally dear to them - employment and religious beliefs. To me it's doesn't matter whether it's art or not (being that there is a separate section already) after someone is uncomfortable. It can be the same as someone displaying a photograph of people killed for hate crimes, a discriminatory word vandalized across a wall, or whatever. That can be our history and art but it doesn't mean a general photo thread is the best place to display all of that stuff without warning of content.

    It doesn't take much more than decency, kindness, and understanding for your fellow person to give a bit of humanity/ respect for their concerns AFTER they're voiced. No one asked for it to be completely deleted... Just relocated to the NSFW section. I think that's a fair an reasonable request considering the reactions and lengths this topic has gone on.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Just relocated to the NSFW section.
    And how many other "special" sections would you suggest?

    If we set up a special one for each category that someone dislikes, we'll have nothing but special sections.

    Nobody is forced to view any image on this board.

    This whole argument revolves around the assertion that a viewer's feelings and opinions are somehow more important than the artist's.

    One famous photographer stated (forgive me for not remembering the quote correctly):
    I shoot for me. If others like it, fine. If they dislike it, fine.

    Photography is a personal expression.

    - Leigh
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    And how many other "special" sections would you suggest?

    If we set up a special one for each category that someone dislikes, we'll have nothing but special sections.

    Nobody is forced to view any image on this board.

    This whole argument revolves around the assertion that a viewer's feelings and opinions are somehow more important than the artist's.

    One famous photographer stated (forgive me for not remembering the quote correctly):
    I shoot for me. If others like it, fine. If they dislike it, fine.

    Photography is a personal expression.

    - Leigh
    Ummm... It's not really a special section to setup... It's been around for years. I think that was the point of asking that it be relocated originally.

    As for you shooting what you want - you're absolutely right you can. That's your choice. So many are content with throwing around meaningless analogies because opinions are free as well. I guess the key is that neither of us make the rules here.

    As for doing things in public well you can walk around naked in your home and you can throw all the trash you want on your floor. You have the choice of doing it in public as well but there are consequences to some of our free choices when it is makes enough uncomfortable.

    I digress though - I've said my opinion. You can choose to be as rude and defiant as you want towards people who you don't agree with. Believe me I'm am not a very P.C. person about a lot of things. I do try to be respectful to others and honor requests because I genuinely am not mean spirited despite not being overly P.C. in real life.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    so, is the onus on the viewer or on the moderators to control image display?

    i say both and i say it has been well handled by the moderators in the past and in this instance
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    so, is the onus on the viewer or on the moderators to control image display?

    i say both and i say it has been well handled by the moderators in the past and in this instance
    I agree it's on both as well. I respect the decision of the moderator to leave it as is. Ultimately I don't have as strong of a vested interest though and I don't make decisions here even if I've only ever felt like a welcomed and valued member by the staff.

    I would agree that the image was fine where it was UNTIL someone expressed a reasonable concern (employment concerns and religious beliefs.) At that point I think it's reasonable to move it because it wasn't like the first person said he didn't like the image but rather would prefer not to see it in case the IT department gets overeager in their pro-activeness. The other person voiced concerns to not see it due to religious beliefs only to get the response of "get over it because it's art" or "hit page down."

    By that rationale I don't see why others can't just get over it, hit page down, and view artistic images in the artistic image threads (after they label it NSFW of course.)

    Again... We are just beating a dead horse and it's getting to the point of exasperating.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I agree it's on both as well. I respect the decision of the moderator to leave it as is. Ultimately I don't have as strong of a vested interest though and I don't make decisions here even if I've only ever felt like a welcomed and valued member by the staff.

    I would agree that the image was fine where it was UNTIL someone expressed a reasonable concern (employment concerns and religious beliefs.) At that point I think it's reasonable to move it because it wasn't like the first person said he didn't like the image but rather would prefer not to see it in case the IT department gets overeager in their pro-activeness. The other person voiced concerns to not see it due to religious beliefs only to get the response of "get over it because it's art" or "hit page down."

    By that rationale I don't see why others can't just get over it, hit page down, and view artistic images in the artistic image threads (after they label it NSFW of course.)

    Again... We are just beating a dead horse and it's getting to the point of exasperating.
    +1

    In summary:

    • As a poster, use good judgement and post what you think is going to be acceptable to all.
    • As a viewer, use good judgement as to when and where you are viewing a photo site. Post if you feel that an image is a problem for you, without calling names, calling in political or religious horsepucky, or otherwise getting up on a righteous podium.
    • As a moderator, call the shot if there is disagreement. Everyone must agree with the moderator or take it up with him/her off-line from the public part of the forum. Moderators are always able to change their mind too.


    My SeePhoto mailing list and the Pentax "PDML" list invites discussion by plain text and links to images. No one can inadvertently put an image up on the screen that way ... the posters can say up front in the posting whether the image includes some taboo subject—whether marking it as "non safe for work" or just risque, or explicitly sex/violence, etc—and it's up to the viewers to click the link to view the images if they so desire.

    It's not as convenient as an in-place, in-stream image display, but it has its advantages: this sort of teacup tempest doesn't happen very often.

    G
    ---
    And now back to rocks, cats, and flowers.

  44. #44
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    And now back to rocks, cats, and flowers.
    But Godfrey, I don't want only rocks, cats, flowers and snow for that matter.
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    I generally agree with everything you posted but religious interests/ practices are as valid as the next reason IMO. There's a wide gap between a person who peacefully practices their religion without harming anyone and an all out extremist or fanatic (not that there's anything wrong with that as long as you aren't hurt anyone or constantly trying to convert everyone to your way of thinking.)

    Oh and don't you go disparaging rocks or flowers... Cats are perfectly fine to disparage but not dogs, rocks, or flowers (I'm only kidding but this thread did need to lighten up.)
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    But Godfrey, I don't want only rocks, cats, flowers and snow for that matter.
    Especially yellow snow...
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    I find ironic that most of those opposed to public nudity belong to one of the religions that have a "God" character at the peak of their hierarchy. That same God is supposed to have created man, and he created him nude. How then can nudity be offensive?

    I do btw. find it weird that people imprison cats, dogs and other animals in their homes for no other reason than their own enjoyment, and although I don't enjoy looking at photos of those captives, I understand that others have opinions that differ from mine, so I mostly just skip those photos, and I don't complain about them, but maybe I should start doing that

    And to those mentioning "nudity" and "violence" in the same sentence... how on earth can those to words be mentioned together as they often are (not least in news media)? The act of hurting another person (or a dog or cat for that matter), is basically a crime in almost any country on earth, as opposed to the beauty of the human body, God's own creation if you are so inclined?
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 28th August 2014 at 20:19.
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  48. #48
    Senior Member W.Utsch's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    When i posted "Garage Classic" i was not at all in any way conscious that by posting it i could offend or disrespect other members of the forum.

    I was posting in the "Fun Forum" as i always do, about photographic reasons by pure "Fun".
    In my feelings the pic was (and is) harmless as i think are all my posts here. I never felt the necessity to think about my pics where to post other than in the Fun section. Or to mark them for a special caution.

    After Zoran's first post i began to think about it and did respect his opinion and feelings, though i have a different opinion.

    I said sorry to him in my second answer, though his tone in his first post was not, to say the least, "friendly".

    That could have been it! Accept an apology!

    I started to posts pics again but i must confess the "Fun" is a little less now...

    Now i feel almost guilty that Ben (a little "thin-skinned") announced to leave the forum. I respect him and always liked his contributions here.
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  49. #49
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    No reason to feel guilty Werner.

    That is his choice, exclusively!

    If someone follows perhaps orthodox views, he can not expect all others to accomodate this on an international stage. Why?

    Becuase making such demand a precedence would allow other orthodox views to claim the very same rights for them as well. Imagine that in reality!

    This of course is different if I were to be a guest in an orthodox home, which the last time I looked GetDPI is not.

    Many Religions have draconic views on nudity and the term taboo comes to mind as well.

    I am "thin-skinned" when it comes to "irrational modesty" that is traditionally and exclusively designed to oppress women.

    Take some other expamples, in Pakistan the Lahore Arts Council has banned all dance performances in theatres except classical dance. Famous dancing women in Lahore were also forced to stop their classical dancing as the police claim they can no longer provide security against attacks by violent conservative groups.

    In general, politics, nudity and religion are the main reason for art censorship.

    Some people have such a repugnance to nudity and sexuality in art that they are driven to vandalism. In April 2011, Susan Burns was visiting the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC when she tried to pry “Two Tahitian Women” by Gauguin from the wall.
    I rest my case....
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    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    Re: When is a picture / post NSFW or just an environmental picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    No reason to feel guilty Werner.

    That is his choice, exclusively!

    If someone follows perhaps orthodox views, he can not expect all others to accomodate this on an international stage. Why?

    Becuase making such demand a precedence would allow other orthodox views to claim the very same rights for them as well. Imagine that in reality!

    This of course is different if I were to be a guest in an orthodox home, which the last time I looked GetDPI is not.

    Many Religions have draconic views on nudity and the term taboo comes to mind as well.

    I am "thin-skinned" when it comes to "irrational modesty" that is traditionally and exclusively designed to oppress women.

    Take some other expamples, in Pakistan the Lahore Arts Council has banned all dance performances in theatres except classical dance. Famous dancing women in Lahore were also forced to stop their classical dancing as the police claim they can no longer provide security against attacks by violent conservative groups.

    In general, politics, nudity and religion are the main reason for art censorship.



    I rest my case....
    May I wake up your case?

    I have done a search of this page and the first reference I saw to the word orthodox was from Anna T - Nowhere else

    Lets entertain the possibility that Ben had an other reason for his action. Perhaps it was the uncivil response????????????

    I think you reference to the Jewish calender was sensitive and touching really a nice reach out.

    Oh one other thing, I used to love going the gas stations to see the calenders.
    Last edited by alajuela; 29th August 2014 at 02:21.

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